I think this is especially true for a first time HC. There is going to be a steep learning curve to being the top guy and spending the time to call plays while trying to figure everything else out seems daunting. Leave the play calling to the OC until you get stable footing. Just because you aren't calling plays doesn't mean you can't be heavily involved with the offense.
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Minnesota Vikings Team Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Heatman
- Start date
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I wanted Thomas Brown as head coach, but if they can get him as OC, I would be ecstatic!!
BigJim®
Footballguy
I agree with this. Totally different when a guru coordinator gets a HC job due to his merits as a play caller. That would be a reason for atypical duty structure. Anything else sort of reeks of I’ll show’emism.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I’d be curious the % of those doing it for the first time. I mean, no one would question Andy Reid or Mike Zimmer.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
BigJim®
Footballguy
Well, it is what it is. I’d call ZT doing it part of the problem vs evidence it makes sense. We’ll see.
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Kirk Cousins won’t be traded because his contract demands are sabotaging the Vikings ability to trade him. Do other teams really want a pay a QB top five money for a top 15 potential and then add in draft picks? I don’t think teams are stupid as people want to believe.
Call me crazy but I would take about anything to have this entitled A$$ off the team. We may have part ways with fan favourite veterans just to pay his final year. I think we need to accept that the team will be much worse talent wise before this team can recover from the Speilman era. I wouldn’t prolong the bleeding. If Kirk doesn’t want to make concessions so we can sign a decent guard and/or centre, I will let him get what he deserves. He can finish the season on IR for all I care. I would not add a single year to his contract.
Call me crazy but I would take about anything to have this entitled A$$ off the team. We may have part ways with fan favourite veterans just to pay his final year. I think we need to accept that the team will be much worse talent wise before this team can recover from the Speilman era. I wouldn’t prolong the bleeding. If Kirk doesn’t want to make concessions so we can sign a decent guard and/or centre, I will let him get what he deserves. He can finish the season on IR for all I care. I would not add a single year to his contract.
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sports_fan
Footballguy
I'm over Cousins too. He's going to prioritize money over all else. He has shown that time and again. He played on franchise tags for years and has only taken guaranteed contracts here. He's a decent enough QB and wasn't the problem last season. For a statistically good QB that can't deliver in critical moments, it's not worth it though. We have enough roster holes that it can't be fixed quickly. No doubt we'd be worse without him for at least a couple of seasons. I'll take some bad years and potentially going into another QB carousel to move on from him.
Cousins delivered last year. He put the Vikes in a position to win many games that the defense and conservative coaching staff blew the chance at a win. Cousins was not the problem at all last year.
His contract is an issue and will prevent possible FA signings that will improve the team. However his play was not the issue last year.
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sports_fan
Footballguy
BigJim®
Footballguy
I'm fine letting new management decide and see what happens. I'm skeptical that getting rid of Cousins will help get this team right. Cutting overpaid vets (Barr, possibly Smith) makes more sense. Drafting wisely to make OL/DE/DT an advantage, rather than weakness, is the main solution. The DL has been a bit reliant on FAs, and it hurts.
snogger
Footballguy
All.. Cousin's Dead cap for this season is $45mil,.. Unless some team wants to pick all of that up, he ain't going anywhere.
and for anyone to think.. Just release him and pay the dead cap.. well, so you want a 1-16 season, if we are lucky, for the new coach to start with
Because, without Cousin's and the dead cap space already spent for him, along with any other cuts they have to do just to get under the cap, we'll be going with some unknown talent at QB and lot's of" lucky to be a backup on other teams" at other positions.
and for anyone to think.. Just release him and pay the dead cap.. well, so you want a 1-16 season, if we are lucky, for the new coach to start with
Because, without Cousin's and the dead cap space already spent for him, along with any other cuts they have to do just to get under the cap, we'll be going with some unknown talent at QB and lot's of" lucky to be a backup on other teams" at other positions.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
You also said "For a statistically good QB that can't deliver in critical moments, it's not worth it though."
Hell yes we want a 1-16 season! Every single mediocre team in the League should. That’s how you optimize your odds of hitting on a true franchise quarterback. The problem is we likely wouldn’t go 1-16, but probably something like 6-11 where you’re in that draft range where you miss the 1-2 elite QB prospects and have to figure out whether you forego a blue chip prospect at a different position in order to gamble on a Mahomes, Herbert, Allen…or Tua, Rosen, or Daniel Jones. But if the possibility of 1-16 is there, I think you take it and move on from mediocrity sooner than later.All.. Cousin's Dead cap for this season is $45mil,.. Unless some team wants to pick all of that up, he ain't going anywhere.
and for anyone to think.. Just release him and pay the dead cap.. well, so you want a 1-16 season, if we are lucky, for the new coach to start with
Because, without Cousin's and the dead cap space already spent for him, along with any other cuts they have to do just to get under the cap, we'll be going with some unknown talent at QB and lot's of" lucky to be a backup on other teams" at other positions.
snogger
Footballguy
LOL... so are you going to be the one to tell Dalvin Cook, Theilen, Jefferson and others in their prime.SayWhat? said:
"We are tanking this season.. rest up for 2023" ??
Why not just forfeit the season right now, so as to not risk injuries, all because you don't want to see Kirk play.
For the record, I never said I don't want to see Kirk play. I simply addressed your comment "and for anyone to think.. Just release him and pay the dead cap.. well, so you want a 1-16 season, if we are lucky, for the new coach to start with?" with a response of "hell yes, we want a 1-16 season!"LOL... so are you going to be the one to tell Dalvin Cook, Theilen, Jefferson and others in their prime.
"We are tanking this season.. rest up for 2023" ??
Why not just forfeit the season right now, so as to not risk injuries, all because you don't want to see Kirk play.
And I stand by my response, that yes, if you could guarantee a 1-16 record and dibs on Bryce Young or CJ Stroud, you take that ten times out of ten over another Kirk Cousins led season into the middle of the pack of nobodies. Sorry if a few of your players end up with hurt feelings about being a ####ty team for a year with Kellen Mond or a crappy veteran quarterback leading the way. But I've got news for you on that front...8-9, 7-9, 10-6, and 8-7-1 don't win you anything either. That's the Vikings records with Cousins as our QB the past four years. And those records for damn sure don't put you in a great position through the draft to end decades of mediocre quarterbacks, at least not when your team has the draft record at the position that the Vikings do.
All that said, the Vikings without Cousins are still better than a bottom 5 team...so even without Kirk we likely wouldn't be in a position to grab one of the two perceived franchise quarterbacks next year. There's almost no possible way that Cousins isn't the Vikings starting QB this coming season.
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sports_fan
Footballguy
I don’t think that’s wrong. We won more games with him than we would have without. He also kept us in some games that we ultimately lost. Still he’s not getting it done in critical late game moments. For a QB with his salary, I would want more and I’d be fine moving on and taking a downgrade at the position in the immediate future. If the rest of the roster was better, I’d be less inclined to move on from himCjw_55106 said:
BigJim®
Footballguy
Really? My recall was Kirk had awesome success with key late drives and the problem was our defense gave the points right back. Basically scored upon at will in 2-minute drills (in both halves). Possibly the most pathetic 2 minute defense in NFL history. There was another early season game (AZ?) where we missed a short FG he got us into position to win. I don;t think Kirk got the benefit of his late successes.
If you are talking about the handful of games where we coughed up a late lead he engineered and then got another drive with 30 seconds to move 50 yards and looked like crap, I know that happened. I don't blame that on Cousins though.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
I guess I just don’t understand what critical moments you are referring to?
i’m not saying it’s you but the Kirk haters crack me up. First, he couldn’t win primetime games. Then he did that several times in his first season with the Vikings. Then, he couldn’t lead a team back when they were down. He did that numerous times, probably amongst the most in the NFL in his time here. Then, he couldn’t win the big games or win in the playoffs. For the haters, the goal posts were constantly moved and they are never satisfied. Contracts are 95% about timing. At the time, cousins was the best quarterback FA in the market so he was paid accordingly. The only current issue is, most of the time, highly compensated players renegotiate toward the end of a contract so the cap hit isn’t so large. Obviously he has not done that at this point.
sports_fan
Footballguy
Again, I’m not saying Cousins was the main issue last season, I said he wasn’t. I’m well aware of the defensive shortcomings and their own failure at key points. I don’t have evidence to back up my feeling that he isn’t effective at leading comeback wins. If he’s among the league leaders in comeback wins that would surprise me considering my overall frustration with him. I don’t have a sense with him that he will take necessary risks by giving one of our stud receivers a chance by throwing into tight coverage beyond the sticks at key points rather than taking a check down with low probability of keeping the drive alive. Nor that he is effective in leading late game winning drives. If you have stats to back up that he actually is effective in those situations you could definitely change my mind (basing my opinion mostly on memory from watching games and I don’t have stats to support either side)
BigJim®
Footballguy
Fair enough. I just don't think the final 2 minutes of such a high frequency of halves should be characterized as "key points." It was an ongoing problem. After 12 weeks, the Vikings would have been 12-0 if not giving up scores to 2 minute offenses. That's not Cousins failing... it is Cousins succeeding. Consider this report following Week 12:
Looking at the following weeks, they ended the season allowing a total of 131 points during 2-minute drills. That's 31% of cumulative points against occurring during 6% of the total game time.
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I believe the bolded is also something that was driven by the conservative coaching staff throughout practice and in games. Don't take risks and be conservative was Zimmer's way and I have no doubt it helped shape Cousins' decisions in games. If the coach doesn't want chances taken you aren't going to take them. I would not put this all on Cousins.
sports_fan
Footballguy
I have no doubt that defense failed in important situations and that coaching added to Cousins conservative playstyle.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
They definitely need to draft a corner(s) high in the draft but I always felt that Harrison Hand played really well when given the opportunity...never understood why he hasn't gotten more chances.
This was one of my biggest complaints about the Zimmer era..
Fans: "Hey did you guys notice our favorite dude Bro McBrosky finally stepped in for some snaps last game and looked pretty solid? Surely he'll get some more playing time, right?"
Zimmer: "Nope, let's throw the original guy out there that keeps getting exposed over and over. Surely it will be different this time."
BigJim®
Footballguy
They definitely need to figure out a way to get more out of less at CB... particularly if lesser players like Hand are serviceable. I think we've learned that drafting CBs high in the draft is not smart. You wind up with a bunch of over priced guys who are not Deion Sanders and they can't cover for 10 seconds - which unfortunately they must be able to do since you neglected DL in targeting CBs.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
This. An awful season likely nets you Bryce Young or C.J. Stroud on a rookie deal, which is how you consistently win in the NFL now. If all you want is to go 9-8 or 10-7 Cousins is your guy.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Based on what? The playoffs, and especially those that go far, are not generally QB’d by guys on rookie contracts. It’s even harder to find consistent playoff appearances.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
The majority of your playoff teams do have a franchise guy though. Someone they drafted and built around. The last two seasons are not the norm. Guys like Cousins are NFL QB purgatory.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
I see no reason that a team couldn't win the Super Bowl with Cousins. I see him a lot like Stafford. Give him the right coaching staff and team around him and he can definitely win a Super Bowl.
Except for the fact that he’s a wilty flower when the pressure is on. Sure, other than that, he could win a Super Bowl (if it were held in October).
BigJim®
Footballguy
Cousins put the Vikes in great position to win all year last year and the coaching staff/kicker/defense took wins away from him. He has improved a lot in pressure situations.
Lazy take? Cousins is 7-26 as the starter for the Vikings against teams with winning records. Have the Vikings had awesome teams? Not especially. Should he had a winning percentage of greater than .212 in those games? And you think this is the guy that can string together 3 or 4 consecutive wins in January/February?
He was 4-19 in such games with the Washington Football Team. And in his three full seasons as the stater that team was 9-7, 8-7-1, and 7-9. Look familiar?
Good luck with that “good enough to win a Super Bowl” narrative with a guy that’s won less than 20% of the games in his career against teams with a winning record. Sometimes lazy takes are enough when you’ve got an uninspiring “leader” at the most important position in all of sports.
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Do you truly think that's the reality of the NFL? I don't ask to be a jerk, because I've seen that suggested by lots and lots of people recently, but I'm skeptical.
Bottom line, if you look at how often a QB on a rookie deal has won a Super Bowl, it's something like twice. In what.. over a decade since rookie contracts were changed? That doesn't seem like a slam dunk deal to me.
I'm not saying I'm against trying to risk a high draft pick on a QB, but even if we do, and he "hits" (this rate is pretty low btw), that doesn't necessarily mean we get any closer to a Super Bowl win.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Rodgers is one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time.SayWhat? said:
Since entering the NFL in 2005, Aaron Rodgers is 36-43-1 (.456) against teams that finished the season with a winning record.
You know who does have a Record over .500 against winning teams? Jimmy Garoppolo.
At some point, you would hope people are going to stop trying to use team statistics to look at individuals skills.
Ok. If Cousins made $5MM per year and you crafted the absolute perfect team around him, Kirk Cousins could win a Super Bowl. There, we’re on the same page. But he doesn’t (make $5MM), he won’t (make $5MM), and he won’t (win a Super Bowl).
I mean, if Joe Flacco can win a Super Bowl then you can probably make the argument for any quarterback that’s a top 20ish option in the NFL could win one. But good luck with that I guess.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I’ll pass on this. Bottom line there are a ton of reasons the Vikings have played poorly and I give it no more than 10% due to QB play.
That’s a good post, seriously. I would’ve guessed that Rodgers was more like .525-.600 against teams with winning records.
The Rodgers as “one of the greatest of all time” has certainly taking a downward turn with his failures in the playoffs, and continually coming up small when the stakes get bigger. It’s almost Cousins-esque, just on the elite level.
Jimmy G with his record of .500+ against teams with a winning record is a great example of a guy that apparently gets it done when it matters. It could be argued that he’s had great (?) teams. I wouldn’t go that far. But he certainly seems to have more of an “it” factor than Cousins. You’ve rarely, if ever, heard coaches, teammates, etc go to bat for Cousins. THATS. OUR. GUY. Why not? It’s not because he’s not talented. Is he a good teammate? A good leader? A guy that inspires confidence in the huddle? A motivator? Sometimes it’s more than the stats, and the fact that Cousins looks ok for stretches. He’s fine. But that’s all he is. And that’s all he’ll ever be. And fine just isn’t worth the $45MM, or anywhere near that number.
