New format: "Empire League" - Your thoughts? (1 Viewer)

[Charch]

I'm looking for feedback on a new style of dynasty league I've created called an Empire League. There's no online community of users whose opinions I value more that these at FBG. I'm not pandering. It's just fact.

Here's the short version of the Empire League

Every league ends, eventually. It could be due to dispute, disinterest, or a freak dirigible accident. Instead of waiting for the inevitable, why not prescribe the end of your dynasty league by crowning an ultimate winner?

Each year, half the league entry fee goes toward paying that year's winner. The other half goes toward a rolling pot (I call it the Emperor Pot), that pays out when someone wins in back-to-back years.

In a 12-team league with a $150 entry fee, a winner in years 5 & 6 would cash out $5400.

And then, the league ends.

You could certainly re-start the Empire League with new rosters at that point. Or don't.

That's the gist of it.

Here's the long version...

http://www.leaguesafepost.com/introducing-the-empire-league/

...and the follow-up FAQ, which addresses unique Empire League issues

http://www.leaguesafepost.com/the-empire-league-strikes-back/

Thoughts?

 

[doowain]

Interesting....

 

[duaneok66]

are you charch from Fantasy Football Weekly? If so, I heard that podcast a few weeks ago - I thought it was a cool idea.

 

[bonesman]

you've got something here

 

[petenice15]

I think I really like the idea. Each year it essentially becomes the field vs the defending champion. It might be hard for a champ to make trades and such, but I guess that's part of what could make this interesting.

 

[Charch]

are you charch from Fantasy Football Weekly? If so, I heard that podcast a few weeks ago - I thought it was a cool idea.

Yes. Thank you for listening!

 

[duaneok66]

are you kidding? It's a great show - I save it for Sunday morning and listen to it instead of watching the TV pregame shows . . .

------------

The Empire format is a good idea, but the downsides would be

1) Lots of money would (potentially) be in limbo for multiple years

and

2) You'd have to worry about the commissioner(treasurer) taking the league money and blowing it all at the track (or on some other vice).

 

[Toxteth O'Grady]

This style of league would really demand a solid location to store the extra cash that is NOT handed out from season to season...at least until that Empire League winner emerges. I suppose that money would also earn interest during those lean months when the Fantasy Football season isn't active. If only there was some way to make that happen.

Charch?

 

[identikit]

Charch owns Leaguesafe so I'm pretty sure that would be the play to avoid scam commishes.

I would think that all that money being held in escrow for potentially long periods would earn a decent amount of interest for someone (assuming a lot of empire leagues).

 

[Shutout]

Charch! Holy cow. Its been an eternity. good to hear from you.

I've tinkered with a few ideas for league that incoroporate split pots and the primary concern I would have for this type of format is that this pot would quickly escalate, potentially, into a sum of money that would compel collusion, one way or the other. Either in teams performing actions designed to block the current champion from repeating or in actions where a champ colludes with a team(s) in order to ensure a win and a division of the pot.

It might be easy to see; it might not, but I think in either instance, you would always result in an End Game where at least a handful of people might say "do you think so and so laid down in that title game and got a cut?" "Why would he start that guy? Was he on the take?

It's hard to see a way around it.

I Don't want to sidetrack your thread but I DO have an idea that works for pot building from year to year that doesn't compel alliances but rewards success over time. If that's of interest, just let me know. If not, let me just say I love the concept; I just don't know how you avoid the inevitble. Especially if the pot builds largely. It really puts every little maneuver under intense scrutiny.

Good luck.

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

WOW! that sounds like a great idea, I would love to do one of these! it seems like there is almost something missing from dynasties and that would be there's no reward for the ultimate winner...even though its a multiple year thing.

 

[karmarooster]

This is pretty cool, and could be slightly modified to keep less cash in limbo year to year. For example instead of 50% going to the Emperor's Pot, you could do something like 40%, 33%, 25%.

Also I think this would have fairly dramatic effects on the initial dynasty/empire draft: rather than targeting young players, the format incentivizes win-now, but not to the extent that you draft veterans who couldn't play at an elite level for 2 years. Or encourages you to take a vet for year one, with a developmental prospect for year two.

Very interesting idea, big props on that.

 

[[icon]]

Seems like a great way to try and get Leaguesafe to hold onto a ton of cash

IMO 50% of the annual league dues is a bit high. I could see something like 10% or so.. MAYBE 15-20 but even that is pushing it.

With any league that's not perfectly balanced I could see the weaker owners complaining about their EV dropping. They might only have a 5% shot at winning a given year while other, better owners, may have a 15% shot (just for example).... now you're taking half the pot and setting it aside for the very best of owners.

Also what are the provisions in the event it's never hit? One of my leagues has been running close to 15 years and has never had a repeat champ.

What are the provisions for a long time owner who's come upon financial hardship.. lost his job, etc... and has to bow out. having to forfeit a share in that giant pot is another major kick in the nuts. We've had guys who had to bow out for a year or two only to return.

Overall I just don't like the idea of tying up a large portion of the prize pool into a perpetual jackpot. But that's just my take. I can see why you would propose such an idea (both for the success of your business, as well as for entertainment value).

And this is coming from a guy who's going for a 3-peat in my 2nd biggest cash league.

 

[eaglezzz]

I do something similar in two different leagues I play in. The first one takes 20% each year and holds it over each year then every 5th year there is a SUPER POOL and that year the prize money doubles for all the league prizes. This is a great idea for Dynasty leagues as it keeps owners coming back every year because they have already invested the 20% the year before. Also if your team is bad the first couple of years it gives you incentive to try to rebuild for that Super Pool year. The only downfall is after year 5 there might be some turnover if some of the lesser teams never work their way out of the basement.

Another league I play in puts owners money into a Progressive Pot which is set a side for individual player high scores and team accomplishments (The first year no payouts from the Progressive Pot but the years after once players start breaking records, the owners that own those players get a percentage of money from the entire Progressive Pot).

Those are a couple of ideas that I have really liked from some of the dynasty leagues I play in, and those are the leagues with the most active owners.

 

[Mario Kart]

Instead of having the pot go to the back-to-back winner, the agreement could be for the team that has the most starting points after X amount of years.

For a five year league, the team with the most amount of points in those five years would earn the pot. To keep teams involved to that point, there could be some odd rules that would keep them in the money.

- the team with the most players to go on IR in those 5 years gets ~5% of the pot.

- the team with most potential points get ~5% of the pot.

- the team with the least potential points gets ~5% of the pot.

Maybe have five odd rules that would keep interest to some level. Also, trades or transactions would have to be limited and/or an early trade deadline. (early trade deadline = once 50% of the regular season games in the fantasy league are played. i.e. 7/13, 7/14.

 

[Charch]

Several very interesting ideas in here! Thanks! I shouldn't be surprised that FBGs are already being creative with their entry fees.

For those who have (rightfully) mentioned collusion concerns, I've offered some suggestions here:

http://www.leaguesafepost.com/the-empire-league-strikes-back/

 

[Mikel J. Anderson]

maybe some sort of "roto" type scoring for the 5 years that was previously suggested. most weekly wins, yards, TDs, etc.., then you can bring in the IR fumbles INT losses (just examples 5 year ROTO FF

 

[Mario Kart]

maybe some sort of "roto" type scoring for the 5 years that was previously suggested. most weekly wins, yards, TDs, etc.., then you can bring in the IR fumbles INT losses (just examples 5 year ROTO FF

Great ideas. Here is another suggestion or thought rather:1st year = $300 entry- $100 goes to year N- $100 goes to year N+5- $100 goes to year N+10- and so on.Assuming a 12 team league: ($6,000)$600 or so goes to winner of years 1-10$600 gets divided in other ways (2nd, 3rd, whatever)Year 5 - the midpoint or 50-yard line:$3,000 goes to the overall winner (most Super Bowls, if no one has more then most wins, maybe. If two tied with two each, maybe go to points or head-to-head.$3,000 gets divided with some other crazy rules over the 5-year span.Year 10 - Touchdown ($12,000)$9,000 goes to whomever has the most Super Bowls (again if tied then goes to head-to-head or most wins)$3,000 goes to the other rules either for the years 6-10 or overall from 1-10.Awesome

 

[DLR]

Two things.

Empire League, very intriguing idea. I am the commish of a league in Minnesota. An owner in my league heard you talking about this, not sure if on kfan or some podcast somewhere. He has been pushing our league real heavy to do this ever since he heard the idea. I think some of the suggested ideas of having 5 year or X amount of year running stat total for domination on the league and then having a payout on that would be cool. I think its a little more motivating than back to back championships. I think if you want to get legacy leagues to join, something like ours, we (that one owner chirping in my ear) were throwing around the idea of adding $20 per owner per year. Doing 50% of our entry fee wouldn't fly too well. we were looking at leaving our payout the same and adding a 10-20% "empire tax", if you will, on top of that.

Secondly, I heard from another owner in my league a weird story that sounded possibly made up involving you. He said he was at the Minnesota State Fair today and went to the kfan booth where you and Paul Allen were. He said he handed you a note with our league's website on it and something about being Bo's (Mitchell) cousin and then just walked away. Just fyi, he is actually Bo's cousin. Just curious how much, if any, truth there was to that.

 

[cobalt_27]

Is this the same Charch from that rag outfit, Fanball?

Regardless, don't like the format. Totally ruins dynasty / keeper format leagues. Redraft? Sure, whatever. Not really seeing the purpose.

 

[yaheRRdme]

I always thought it would be a good idea to add up the regular season records for a certain amount of years, and then have a Big Winner. This would make every week important especially early on and one bad season will not necessarily kill your chance at the big money.

 

[Charch]

Secondly, I heard from another owner in my league a weird story that sounded possibly made up involving you. He said he was at the Minnesota State Fair today and went to the kfan booth where you and Paul Allen were. He said he handed you a note with our league's website on it and something about being Bo's (Mitchell) cousin and then just walked away. Just fyi, he is actually Bo's cousin. Just curious how much, if any, truth there was to that.

Mostly true. We talked briefly, but that's all.

 

[Wildcat]

You've addressed trades and free agency in regards to collusion, but how would you control lineup collusion? Sometimes this could be obvious (a team starting their worst players) or subtle(starting the 15th ranked receiver versus the 5th ranked receiver, or starting a player that is ruled out 1 hour before their game).

 

[Wildcat]

Is this the same Charch from that rag outfit, Fanball?Regardless, don't like the format. Totally ruins dynasty / keeper format leagues. Redraft? Sure, whatever. Not really seeing the purpose.

No need to start throwing insults.

 

[beto]

I tried a league like this and it fell apart in year 3. All monies were returned. I think it would be more fun to do this with people you knew rather than via innerwebs.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I think doing something like this, but awarding the first owner to win two (instead of having to be back to back) would work much better. You could easily go 10+ years without having a back to back champ.

 

[rocketsauce]

My main concern would be getting 100% return on owners, to keep things fair & legit. My 12 year Re-Draft has had at least 1 person turnover every year we've been in existence. Whether its life events, money problems, moving too far away, or just losing the commitment to fantasy, something always seems to come up. If we were putting aside 50% of the money, is it really fair to let a guy who comes in year 4 and runs the table twice in a row to cash out all that money he hasn't contributed to? I guess it would just suck for the rest of us And then if some guy does quit after 5 years, does he try to make claim for his 500 or so dollars sitting in Leaguesafe? Sounds messy.

I thought your thoughts on collusion on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, and you guys and your potential "fixes" for it (No trading with the Emperor etc.) kind of made this idea jump the shark. If you start putting in so many provisions, the whole thing becomes more of a hassle than a fun or cool idea. Just throwing that out there.

Oh, and I love the poster who said this is just a way for Charch to get more money holding in Leaguesafe.com. I thought the same thing. You brilliant son of a #####!

 

[Reality Football]

The nice thing about this plan is that in many dynasty leagues, teams have no qualms about tanking a year or two if it means they can go all in with a stacked draft in another year -- in this system, you at least better approximate the real-life need to field (at the least) an ostensibly competitive team on a consistent basis.

But yeah, I wouldn't play this system unless I knew everyone in the league -- tough to feel like owners will be fair and accountable to each other otherwise.

 

[identikit]

My main concern would be getting 100% return on owners, to keep things fair & legit. My 12 year Re-Draft has had at least 1 person turnover every year we've been in existence. Whether its life events, money problems, moving too far away, or just losing the commitment to fantasy, something always seems to come up. If we were putting aside 50% of the money, is it really fair to let a guy who comes in year 4 and runs the table twice in a row to cash out all that money he hasn't contributed to? I guess it would just suck for the rest of us And then if some guy does quit after 5 years, does he try to make claim for his 500 or so dollars sitting in Leaguesafe? Sounds messy.

I thought your thoughts on collusion on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, and you guys and your potential "fixes" for it (No trading with the Emperor etc.) kind of made this idea jump the shark. If you start putting in so many provisions, the whole thing becomes more of a hassle than a fun or cool idea. Just throwing that out there.

Oh, and I love the poster who said this is just a way for Charch to get more money holding in Leaguesafe.com. I thought the same thing. You brilliant son of a #####!

Yeah, it's pretty transparent IMO.

 

[jsharlan]

Lots of interesting ideas here, I especially like the 5 year super pool idea. It might also be interesting to reward to most active GM, like a payout for making the most trades/FA pickups over a set amount of years.

 

[squistion]

Seems like a great way to try and get Leaguesafe to hold onto a ton of cash

Exactly, wonderful deal for Leaguesafe - get to keep 50% of the league dues every year for who knows how long. I might be able to get into this idea if somebody else had thought it up who wouldn't have a vested interest in holding the additional funds.

 

[Warrior]

" Should the Emperor pot be stored in an interest-bearing account?

Yes and No.

Yes: You should store the funds somewhere safer than mingled into your commissioner’s home bank account. That’s way too dangerous, especially as the Emperor Pot grows. Obviously, I hope you use LeagueSafe. If not, consider a separate bank account somewhere.

No: Realize that you’re not going to make any money any time soon. The amount in the Emperor Pot isn’t enough. And interest rates are basically zero. A quick look at Wells Fargo’s savings account interest rates show them to be 0.01% – 0.05%. That means in a ten-team, $100-entry fee league, your Emperor Pot will make around 50¢ in interest in year one. Yes, fifty cents. Maybe up to $1.50."

have some dignity, Chachi. People aren't that dumb.

 

[The_Wolfman]

I like the idea in theory but I do not think it would work in reality. After a few years the amount of money that is built up just begs for collusion. Also, it raises other questions like what do you do with bad owners? Since they've invested in the long-term it would be difficult to kick them out without very specific, predetermined guidelines for doing so. And then who's going to be holding onto all this money for years and years? Who gets the interest earned?

Like I said, good concept, just too fraught with potential problems for my liking. I'd probably pass on this kind of league.

 

[Mario Kart]

If some kind of an account would yield 1% on all returns, that is $10 for every $1,000 invested in year 1.

- $5 for every $1,000 at .5%

- $10 for every $1,000 at 1%

Over the course of the league (assume a $200 entry with $100 going into the larger pot) that would yield $1,000 every year making a total "investment of $5,000 (for a 5 year league).

- assume the 1% return for every $1,000 ($10)

- one league will yield (over the course of 5 years):

-- N = $1,010

-- N+1 = $2,030.10

-- N+2 = $3,060.40

-- N+3 = $4,101.01

-- N+4 = $5,152.02

The $5,000 would be withdrawn for league payouts with a remainder of $152.02 going to the account holder. Plus the fees paid to LeagueSafe for each year.

So, at 1%, for a $200 league, the net yield after 5 years is a nice total of $152.02.

For a $100 league, the yield would be $76.01 after 5 years.

For a $400 league, the yield would be $304.04

Let's assume each league was a $200 league but there were ~100 of these going on:

- that would be $15,202.xx plus LeagueSafe fees after year 5.

That is a nice chuck of change. And, that is at a conservative 1% yield.

 

[Dedelvis]

Don't know how many empire leagues got spawned off of the Leaguesafe Post writing and/or FFW broadcast, but I'm in one of them. A bit strange heading into what could be a loooooong-term investment exclusively with people online, but it was interesting enough to try. Unfortunately being the only guy on Pacific time in a league filled with Minnesotans is cramping things a bit.

I know. "Cool story, bro", all that stuff. Just gotta say that I'm looking forward to it, but not looking forward to an auction error having repercussions for YEARS.

 

[Borat]

Very interesting idea! One of the better and more original ideas I've heard about FF in a long time.

 

[rocketsauce]

If some kind of an account would yield 1% on all returns, that is $10 for every $1,000 invested in year 1. - $5 for every $1,000 at .5%- $10 for every $1,000 at 1%Over the course of the league (assume a $200 entry with $100 going into the larger pot) that would yield $1,000 every year making a total "investment of $5,000 (for a 5 year league).- assume the 1% return for every $1,000 ($10)- one league will yield (over the course of 5 years):-- N = $1,010-- N+1 = $2,030.10-- N+2 = $3,060.40-- N+3 = $4,101.01-- N+4 = $5,152.02The $5,000 would be withdrawn for league payouts with a remainder of $152.02 going to the account holder. Plus the fees paid to LeagueSafe for each year.So, at 1%, for a $200 league, the net yield after 5 years is a nice total of $152.02.For a $100 league, the yield would be $76.01 after 5 years.For a $400 league, the yield would be $304.04Let's assume each league was a $200 league but there were ~100 of these going on:- that would be $15,202.xx plus LeagueSafe fees after year 5. That is a nice chuck of change. And, that is at a conservative 1% yield.

Tell me where to open your 1% Savings Account with $1000ish please. I opened one last year for my son -- .05%.

 

[Mario Kart]

If some kind of an account would yield 1% on all returns, that is $10 for every $1,000 invested in year 1. - $5 for every $1,000 at .5%- $10 for every $1,000 at 1%Over the course of the league (assume a $200 entry with $100 going into the larger pot) that would yield $1,000 every year making a total "investment of $5,000 (for a 5 year league).- assume the 1% return for every $1,000 ($10)- one league will yield (over the course of 5 years):-- N = $1,010-- N+1 = $2,030.10-- N+2 = $3,060.40-- N+3 = $4,101.01-- N+4 = $5,152.02The $5,000 would be withdrawn for league payouts with a remainder of $152.02 going to the account holder. Plus the fees paid to LeagueSafe for each year.So, at 1%, for a $200 league, the net yield after 5 years is a nice total of $152.02.For a $100 league, the yield would be $76.01 after 5 years.For a $400 league, the yield would be $304.04Let's assume each league was a $200 league but there were ~100 of these going on:- that would be $15,202.xx plus LeagueSafe fees after year 5. That is a nice chuck of change. And, that is at a conservative 1% yield.

Tell me where to open your 1% Savings Account with $1000ish please. I opened one last year for my son -- .05%.

Um, if you have a bankroll as well as money coming in, you would not open up a savings account. Wonder why 5 years is the time frame mentioned? Open up a Five year CD and lock in the Interest rate and you yield more than 1%. Any person openin up a savings account with the money being mentioned is losing out on to s of money. The higher the bankroll, the higher the Interest rate. Understanding banking is a good thing. The dumbest thing would be to throw the money in stocks as that is not as secure.

 

[cobalt_27]

The OP ran Fanball into the ground and sold out just before that POS went into bankruptcy. Now, he's back, selling us on a silly idea that is just a blatant attempt to stimulate ideas on how his new racket, Leaguesafe, can take your money.

Now, excuse me...i have company coming over for a night of California Poker.

What a joke.

 

[Zeff]

The OP ran Fanball into the ground and sold out just before that POS went into bankruptcy. Now, he's back, selling us on a silly idea that is just a blatant attempt to stimulate ideas on how his new racket, Leaguesafe, can take your money. Now, excuse me...i have company coming over for a night of California Poker.What a joke.

[billandted]Whoa.[/billandted]

 

[Biabreakable]

I liked Mario Karts idea of having a total points winner in year 5 (or every 5 years). This gets owners to be committed for longer than one season. So when an owner is having a bad year they have less reason to tank for draft position or play kingmaker with trades. It also changes the incentive for owners to go all in sacrificing the future for success now.

I think that creates an interesting dynamic and you could have the league be continuous (rather than redrafting after 5 years) but with the incentives at the 5 year mark and perhaps some at the 3 year mark also? That would be something I have not seen before and I might be interested in participating in next season, if I liked the scoring rules and everything else of course.

 

[Charch]

The OP ran Fanball into the ground and sold out just before that POS went into bankruptcy.

That's just not true, although I'm sure you won't believe me.We sold Fanball in 2005. I stayed there until 2006, when new management was taking the company in a direction I didn't care for. I started working on LeagueSafe in 2007, and went public-facing in 2008. I believe new management closed the doors in, what, 2009 or 2010? Three or four years after I left.

 

[Charch]

Although the Empire League is well suited for LeagueSafe, it's hardly a requirement. Keep the rolling pot wherever you wish.

I hope people will look at the idea on it's own merits. My goal wasn't to try to get a handful of new leagues using LeagueSafe.

This reminds me of two stories from the old days.

1) Back in pre-internet Fanball, we were just a magazine, Fantasy Football Weekly. We were the first publication to provide auction values, the first to provide mock auctions, and the first to provide instructions about how/why to to auction. We kept talking about the merits of auctioning. Some people thought we were doing nothing but shilling for our magazine. But, in reality, we felt strongly that it was a legit way to play.

2) Fanball Commissioner was the first commissioner product to offer online free agent blind bidding. We publicized that features a lot, because we loved it. Some people ripped us for talking about free agent blind bidding, saying we were just trying to drive traffic to our own product. But, again, we felt strongly that it was the right way to play.

Same thing with the Empire League.

Really, just looking for feedback on a potentially good idea.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

Not crazy about the idea, I'm sure you can take pieces from it to make something. You're open to feedback & suggestions so that's a good thing.

Mario Kart's total points idea is a lot simpler, easier to understand, and you're guaranteed a winner.

I think the bigger issue is owner commitment in dynasty. Signing and paying a 5-year contract would be nice. Too many owners just quit for no reason and just bounce to another dynasty league.

I've joined 3 dynasty leagues in the past 5 years here at FBG. 2 folded after 1 year and the other lasted 3 years (had 2 commissioners after the first one bailed after year 1). I've went redraft league since then. You don't have to deal with the childish drama.