Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
***OFFICIAL*** Minnesota Vikings 2015 Season Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter snogger
- Start date
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Here is Sparano's coaching history on PFR.
I went through this looking at the time where he and Zimmer worked together with Parcells and then his work as a HC with Miami.
It is very hit and miss. There are some seasons where sacks given up was in the high 40s which is pretty bad. Drew Bledsoe was the QB for a couple of those seasons perhaps contributing to that, but the protection does not look very good in many of his seasons as a coach. When the Cowboys got Romo the sacks decreased to only 24. So that is a good sign that it is possible for him to coach some decent pass protection. I suppose he deserves some credit for being the TE coach during Jason Witten's early development. He became an assistant HC in his last year with Dallas before moving on to Miami.
His first season as HC of the Dolphins in 2008 with Chad Pennington they only gave up 26 sacks. Then in 2009 34 sacks (Pennington missed games). 2010 they gave up 38 sacks mostly playing Chad Henne. Then in 2011 they gave up 52 sacks with a combination of Henne and Moore. This clearly did not move in the right direction and Sparano was fired.
He then had an OC job for the Jets where they gave up 47 sacks. Part of that was with Tebow (2 sacks) and Greg McElroy (who?
) who took 11 sacks. Sanchez played in 15 games and was sacked 34 times which isn't that bad.
His first year with the Raiders in 2013 they gave up 44 sacks playing 3 different QB. In 2014 this improved to 28 sacks in Carr's rookie season.
I dunno there are some bright spots, but there are more bad seasons than good. He has not worked with very good QBs for most of career. When he has (Romo, Carr, Pennington) the sack numbers have been lower. Otherwise it does not look much better than what the Vikings have been giving up recently.
I went through this looking at the time where he and Zimmer worked together with Parcells and then his work as a HC with Miami.
It is very hit and miss. There are some seasons where sacks given up was in the high 40s which is pretty bad. Drew Bledsoe was the QB for a couple of those seasons perhaps contributing to that, but the protection does not look very good in many of his seasons as a coach. When the Cowboys got Romo the sacks decreased to only 24. So that is a good sign that it is possible for him to coach some decent pass protection. I suppose he deserves some credit for being the TE coach during Jason Witten's early development. He became an assistant HC in his last year with Dallas before moving on to Miami.
His first season as HC of the Dolphins in 2008 with Chad Pennington they only gave up 26 sacks. Then in 2009 34 sacks (Pennington missed games). 2010 they gave up 38 sacks mostly playing Chad Henne. Then in 2011 they gave up 52 sacks with a combination of Henne and Moore. This clearly did not move in the right direction and Sparano was fired.
He then had an OC job for the Jets where they gave up 47 sacks. Part of that was with Tebow (2 sacks) and Greg McElroy (who?
) who took 11 sacks. Sanchez played in 15 games and was sacked 34 times which isn't that bad.His first year with the Raiders in 2013 they gave up 44 sacks playing 3 different QB. In 2014 this improved to 28 sacks in Carr's rookie season.
I dunno there are some bright spots, but there are more bad seasons than good. He has not worked with very good QBs for most of career. When he has (Romo, Carr, Pennington) the sack numbers have been lower. Otherwise it does not look much better than what the Vikings have been giving up recently.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Tony Sparano: Taking run game from worst to first
Tony Sparano reportedly confirmed as new offensive line coach
It sounds like he is committed to a man blocking scheme more than zone blocking.
The Wildcat and willingness to do different things could be interesting with McKinnon and maybe Patterson?
Maybe.
Tony Sparano reportedly confirmed as new offensive line coach
It sounds like he is committed to a man blocking scheme more than zone blocking.
The Wildcat and willingness to do different things could be interesting with McKinnon and maybe Patterson?
Maybe.
mr roboto
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I have not been keeping up with PFF numbers but I would assume that what he is saying is true.
From personal observation Kalil Fusco and Clemmings missed blocks and allowed immediate pressure often. Fusco and Clemmings pretty much every game, Kalil played better before his injury but the Vikings were playing against many good defenses towards the end also, so that contributed to his struggles.
Part of it is definitely on Teddy for holding the ball too long and that goes back to the coaches calling plays that the offensive line cannot protect long enough to execute.
Some of the observations about the trap blocking require a player who is going to execute the key pull block with the right timing. The Vikings had some good runs to the right with Harris pulling, but for the most part these plays seemed to get blown up. Fusco seemed too slow pulling across to the right at times.
What happened with Cordarrelle Patterson?
He was a threat with the ball in his hands when they used him as a RB and WR a couple years ago. Reports are that the coach is leaving it up to him to become a WR. Will he have a opportunity to work with Michael Irving this off-season?
He was a threat with the ball in his hands when they used him as a RB and WR a couple years ago. Reports are that the coach is leaving it up to him to become a WR. Will he have a opportunity to work with Michael Irving this off-season?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
He doesn't seem to be a bad kid, in fact he seems like a decent one, but he doesn't have the demeanor to be a professional football player.
Remember the movie Seabiscuit, where the horse was laying under the tree and rolling around in the grass? That's Patterson...Seabiscuit with all the talent but none of the competitive instinct.
sports_fan
Footballguy
I have more hope for Charles Johnson than Patterson. I'm not sure what happened to Johnson exactly.
Last edited by a moderator:
Biabreakable
Footballguy
What happened to Johnson is that Stefon Diggs took his job as the X WR. Johnson does not play special teams Thielen and Patterson do, so this led to Johnson being inactive for several games towards the end of the season.
Diggs
Wallace
Wright
Theilen
Patterson
Johnson
Early on in the season Johnson had Diggs spot at the X WR and Diggs was inactive for the 1st 3 games. The Vikings did not want to have 6 active WR and when Zimmer was asked about this his answer was pretty much the same. He wanted to dress another player on defense so that is why they had healthy inactive players at WR.
THe Vikings used a lot of 2 and 3 TE sets giving less opportunity for WR as well. Part of this was how they compensated for starting Clemmings at RT. Almost every game they did not ask Clemmings to pick up pass rushers from this side instead having a TE take that assignment, usually Ellison but sometimes Rudolph (who was not as good at it as Ellison) or Pruitt.
Johnson was the WR in the big sets early on, then Patterson was used in it for a few games when Johnson was out. Towards the end of the season Theilen had taken over this role. It was rare for the Vikings to throw to the WR out of this formation anyways but this was at least an opportunity to get other WR on the field.
In 2 or 3 WR sets it almost always would be Diggs, Wallace Wright, sometimes Theilen mixed in.
I don't know what is going to happen with Mike Wallace. Zimmer has said he would like Wallace back, but I think Zimmer is a players coach and he does not consider the salary cap or anything like that in his comments. He just evaluates the players and how well they play. Speilman will make the decisions as far as if players are worth their salary and so on while the coaches decide who plays, how much and in what roles.
If Wallace is let go then that opens up the starting Z WR position. I think Diggs could play the Z if they wanted him to as well which would open up the X position.
Wright can play the Z or the slot and he would be the next guy up if Wallace is let go.
Adam Theilen can play all 3 positions is part of why he might have gotten opportunity over Johnson and Patterson as well. The Vikings have played Johnson and Patterson as the X WR. I think Patterson might be better suited for the Z than the X
Johnson seems like he has the X WR role only in this offense, so unless Diggs gets moved I don't really see a spot for him in the offense. Patterson and Theilen play special teams so they have an advantage over Johsnon in that regard as far as making the final roster in 2016.
The Vikings will likely be adding a WR or perhaps a few WR through the draft, so if Wallace is kept Johnson, Patterson and Theilen will be fighting for that 5th and 6th WR spot. I think Diggs and Wright are locks to be part of the starting 3 WR in 2016.
Diggs
Wallace
Wright
Theilen
Patterson
Johnson
Early on in the season Johnson had Diggs spot at the X WR and Diggs was inactive for the 1st 3 games. The Vikings did not want to have 6 active WR and when Zimmer was asked about this his answer was pretty much the same. He wanted to dress another player on defense so that is why they had healthy inactive players at WR.
THe Vikings used a lot of 2 and 3 TE sets giving less opportunity for WR as well. Part of this was how they compensated for starting Clemmings at RT. Almost every game they did not ask Clemmings to pick up pass rushers from this side instead having a TE take that assignment, usually Ellison but sometimes Rudolph (who was not as good at it as Ellison) or Pruitt.
Johnson was the WR in the big sets early on, then Patterson was used in it for a few games when Johnson was out. Towards the end of the season Theilen had taken over this role. It was rare for the Vikings to throw to the WR out of this formation anyways but this was at least an opportunity to get other WR on the field.
In 2 or 3 WR sets it almost always would be Diggs, Wallace Wright, sometimes Theilen mixed in.
I don't know what is going to happen with Mike Wallace. Zimmer has said he would like Wallace back, but I think Zimmer is a players coach and he does not consider the salary cap or anything like that in his comments. He just evaluates the players and how well they play. Speilman will make the decisions as far as if players are worth their salary and so on while the coaches decide who plays, how much and in what roles.
If Wallace is let go then that opens up the starting Z WR position. I think Diggs could play the Z if they wanted him to as well which would open up the X position.
Wright can play the Z or the slot and he would be the next guy up if Wallace is let go.
Adam Theilen can play all 3 positions is part of why he might have gotten opportunity over Johnson and Patterson as well. The Vikings have played Johnson and Patterson as the X WR. I think Patterson might be better suited for the Z than the X
Johnson seems like he has the X WR role only in this offense, so unless Diggs gets moved I don't really see a spot for him in the offense. Patterson and Theilen play special teams so they have an advantage over Johsnon in that regard as far as making the final roster in 2016.
The Vikings will likely be adding a WR or perhaps a few WR through the draft, so if Wallace is kept Johnson, Patterson and Theilen will be fighting for that 5th and 6th WR spot. I think Diggs and Wright are locks to be part of the starting 3 WR in 2016.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
So I guess RB coach Kirby Wilson may be leaving for run game coordinator job in Cleveland. I somewhat think he did a good job with McKinnon and Asiata last season. However he didn't do enough to make sure Peterson was focused on little things such as protecting the football. Zimmer said he likely should have played Peterson in the preseason to get him more in the flow of the offense. I think that lack of preparation is on the coaches, so hopefully the next coach pays attention to details and does not let a big name like Peterson prevent him from doing his job.
Arif goes a bit crazy re-signing all the Vikings free agents and trading Peterson.
I thought this was interesting and in depth. I didn't particularly like many of the moves and moves I did like (such as signing Alshon Jeffrey) seem unlikely to happen.
Arif and PFF seem to think Fusco is a better player than he is. Maybe there is an undisclosed injury regarding Fusco, maybe there isn't.
Perhaps the most unique idea was to move Josh Robinson from corner to safety (along with Terrance Newman as well). Seems like a poor fit given how Robinson struggled playing the slot corner position. I would rather get a really good safety from the draft to pair with Smith and stop trying to patch this over with smoke and mirrors.
Arif goes a bit crazy re-signing all the Vikings free agents and trading Peterson.
I thought this was interesting and in depth. I didn't particularly like many of the moves and moves I did like (such as signing Alshon Jeffrey) seem unlikely to happen.
Arif and PFF seem to think Fusco is a better player than he is. Maybe there is an undisclosed injury regarding Fusco, maybe there isn't.
Perhaps the most unique idea was to move Josh Robinson from corner to safety (along with Terrance Newman as well). Seems like a poor fit given how Robinson struggled playing the slot corner position. I would rather get a really good safety from the draft to pair with Smith and stop trying to patch this over with smoke and mirrors.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
[SIZE=14pt]Vikings reportedly set to interview former Browns coach Pat Shurmur[/SIZE]
It is not clear what position the Vikings might be considering Shurmur for. QB coach?
CanadianNFLJunkie
Footballguy
I would think IF Shurmur signs with us, he'll be an Offensive assistant/Running Game coordinator and not the QB coach. Aren't both Turner's sort of doing that now anyway with Teddy and company?
How come we don't have an Off-season forum yet??
How come we don't have an Off-season forum yet??
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Why the Vikings met with Pat Shurmur is something I wonder about. If he isn't hired we may never know.
The Vikings have had Jeff Davidson as the running game coordinator and Norv Turner has a history of letting a coach design the blocking schemes and types of running plays the team will use.
Tony Sparano has been hired as the offensive line coach. I would guess he would be the running game coordinator if the Vikings have one, although Shurmur has coached offensive line and TE earlier on in his career. So maybe they are considering him for that position.
More recently in Shurmurs career he has coached the QB been the offensive coordinator or been a head coach.
There has been talk about Bridgewater having poor throwing mechanics. Scott Turner is the Vikings QB coach. Having someone more experienced in coaching QB could be a way to focus on improving Bridgewaters throwing mechanics that Scott Turners coaching has not accomplished yet.
Shurmur comes from a west coast offense and zone blocking scheme. He learned some things from Chip Kelly that the Vikings might be interested in as well. The WCO does not fit the Coryell system run by Norv Turner and Sparano has used man blocking for the most part not zone blocking. So I wonder how the Walsh WCO with McNabb and what Chip Kelly has been doing would work with what the Vikings have on offense and what they have been doing? Or want to do?
I could see the WCO perhaps being a better fit for Bridgewaters skill set than Norv's offense is.
I see the interview of Shurmur as more of a threat to Scott and Norv Turners jobs than him being brought in to coach the running game. But I guess we will see if any other major changes will happen. Zimmer seems able to admit when he was wrong about something and try to fix it. For example.
[SIZE=14pt]After string of injuries, Vikings have fired strength & conditioning coach[/SIZE]
The Vikings have had Jeff Davidson as the running game coordinator and Norv Turner has a history of letting a coach design the blocking schemes and types of running plays the team will use.
Tony Sparano has been hired as the offensive line coach. I would guess he would be the running game coordinator if the Vikings have one, although Shurmur has coached offensive line and TE earlier on in his career. So maybe they are considering him for that position.
More recently in Shurmurs career he has coached the QB been the offensive coordinator or been a head coach.
There has been talk about Bridgewater having poor throwing mechanics. Scott Turner is the Vikings QB coach. Having someone more experienced in coaching QB could be a way to focus on improving Bridgewaters throwing mechanics that Scott Turners coaching has not accomplished yet.
Shurmur comes from a west coast offense and zone blocking scheme. He learned some things from Chip Kelly that the Vikings might be interested in as well. The WCO does not fit the Coryell system run by Norv Turner and Sparano has used man blocking for the most part not zone blocking. So I wonder how the Walsh WCO with McNabb and what Chip Kelly has been doing would work with what the Vikings have on offense and what they have been doing? Or want to do?
I could see the WCO perhaps being a better fit for Bridgewaters skill set than Norv's offense is.
I see the interview of Shurmur as more of a threat to Scott and Norv Turners jobs than him being brought in to coach the running game. But I guess we will see if any other major changes will happen. Zimmer seems able to admit when he was wrong about something and try to fix it. For example.
[SIZE=14pt]After string of injuries, Vikings have fired strength & conditioning coach[/SIZE]
Biabreakable
Footballguy
[SIZE=14pt]Report: Pat Shurmur joining Vikings coaching staff.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is not clear what title Shurmur will hold. As of now all of the existing coaching staff remains.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is not clear what title Shurmur will hold. As of now all of the existing coaching staff remains.[/SIZE]
skol asylum
Footballguy
Wow. Pretty surprised if it's not at least the OC job. Wasn't he up for that level position elsewhere?Biabreakable said:
BigJim®
Footballguy
Wow, pretty exciting to see the immediate action from the team in terms of OL and offensive coaching leadership. I'm not sure what all of this means for Norv & his son though and would not be surprised to see another shoe dropping. I was/am not anti-Norv by any stretch, although it did seem as if his preferred vertical offensive scheme was impeded significantly by the OL futility, AP's preferred running formations, and perhaps even the choice of Bridgewater as franchise QB. These coaching infusions make me wonder if the team is unwilling to wait for better protection to make foundational changes to the offense. Could be they have already decided that persisting limitations from AP and/or Bridgewater leave us unable to do what Norv wants to do. That would definitely render Norv's continued existence on the offensive coaching staff curious.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
It certainly is curious.
[SIZE=14pt]Vikings Name Pat Shurmur Tight Ends Coach[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Soo Shurmur will be the TE coach and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Kevin Stefanski will move to RB coach.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I was doing some digging and it turns out that Bridgewater ran a pro style WCO in Louisville under OC/QB coach Shawn Watson. Watson has worked with Brad Childress and Bill Callahan.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Norv Turners contract expires after the 2016 season, so the Vikings may be looking ahead to the team without Turner as the OC in years ahead.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Vikings Name Pat Shurmur Tight Ends Coach[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Soo Shurmur will be the TE coach and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Kevin Stefanski will move to RB coach.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I was doing some digging and it turns out that Bridgewater ran a pro style WCO in Louisville under OC/QB coach Shawn Watson. Watson has worked with Brad Childress and Bill Callahan.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Shurmur has also used a WCO while Norv uses a Coryell offensive system. So Bridgewater already had to adjust to Norv's offense and the associated terminology and concepts. Bridgewater does have experience with a WCO should the Vikings want to use elements of it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Norv Turners contract expires after the 2016 season, so the Vikings may be looking ahead to the team without Turner as the OC in years ahead.[/SIZE]
Biabreakable
Footballguy
[SIZE=14pt]Looking ahead: Ellison’s recovery, contract impact Vikings’ outlook at tight end[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Both of the new coaching hires should change how the offensive line and TEs play together in protection schemes.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Vikings gave up 45 sacks that combined for 318 lost yards.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Both of the new coaching hires should change how the offensive line and TEs play together in protection schemes.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Vikings gave up 45 sacks that combined for 318 lost yards.[/SIZE]
Biabreakable
Footballguy
[SIZE=12pt]The Minnesota Vikings' Offense Is Kind Of Predictable[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The high percentage of run calls on 1st down (67..6%) combined with the 6th fewest yards gained on 1st down set up Bridgewater to be throwing from longer distance to convert a 1st down than most QB were facing. It also took away the easier completion opportunity for Bridgewater if he got to throw the ball more often on 1st down, when defenses are understandably expecting a run.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]I think a shift to calling runs on 1st down to even 60% would maintain the defenses tendency to guess run on 1st down while giving Bridgewater more higher quality attempts. This should help the efficiency on first downs, which will lead to more 1st downs and more plays.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The high percentage of run calls on 1st down (67..6%) combined with the 6th fewest yards gained on 1st down set up Bridgewater to be throwing from longer distance to convert a 1st down than most QB were facing. It also took away the easier completion opportunity for Bridgewater if he got to throw the ball more often on 1st down, when defenses are understandably expecting a run.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]I think a shift to calling runs on 1st down to even 60% would maintain the defenses tendency to guess run on 1st down while giving Bridgewater more higher quality attempts. This should help the efficiency on first downs, which will lead to more 1st downs and more plays.[/SIZE]
Biabreakable
Footballguy
At the 49 minute mark of this podcast Luke Inman talks about his discussion recently with defensive backs coach Jerry Gray.
He says Gray brings up safety Darian Thompson from Boise State. 6' 1" 215.
Gray seems to think Newman will be back. He expects Waynes to be the best of all of the defensive backs on the roster.
He says Gray brings up safety Darian Thompson from Boise State. 6' 1" 215.
Gray seems to think Newman will be back. He expects Waynes to be the best of all of the defensive backs on the roster.
CanadianNFLJunkie
Footballguy
I understand that there is a learning curve for CB's coming into the NFL, so I hope Waynes do NOT take lessons from Rhodes on how to defend the deep ball. Rhodes must have been up there for penalties in the league.
Going into the draft (again why hasn't someone already started an OFF SEASON blog yet?), I'd like to see us get much needed help on the O-line, probably a Tackle and someone like TJ can move inside to a Guard spot, another safety to go next to Harrison Smith, an athletic and fast OLB for Greenway's spot as he'll probably won't be back, and more depth at DE as I feel Robison isn't going to be here much longer. We'll need a blocking TE since Ellison is injured now as well as a speed WR and a new punter.
Hopefully NOW that the franchise has turned the corner, with a division championship and the new digs, free agents will WANT TO come to Minnesota so hopefully we can get a few seasoned veterans to sign their second contract with us. Roughly the Salary Cap is going to be around $150 million so we'll have around $22 million to spend. I'm not 100% sure but if we let go and or re-work the contracts of Greenway and WR Mike Wallace ($11.5 mill) and most likely RT Phil Loadholt ($7,750,000) and or LT Matt Kalil ($11 mill) that will free up a lot more money. Robison is to make $5 mill so I'd let him go and let Danielle Hunter start next year.
Going into the draft (again why hasn't someone already started an OFF SEASON blog yet?), I'd like to see us get much needed help on the O-line, probably a Tackle and someone like TJ can move inside to a Guard spot, another safety to go next to Harrison Smith, an athletic and fast OLB for Greenway's spot as he'll probably won't be back, and more depth at DE as I feel Robison isn't going to be here much longer. We'll need a blocking TE since Ellison is injured now as well as a speed WR and a new punter.
Hopefully NOW that the franchise has turned the corner, with a division championship and the new digs, free agents will WANT TO come to Minnesota so hopefully we can get a few seasoned veterans to sign their second contract with us. Roughly the Salary Cap is going to be around $150 million so we'll have around $22 million to spend. I'm not 100% sure but if we let go and or re-work the contracts of Greenway and WR Mike Wallace ($11.5 mill) and most likely RT Phil Loadholt ($7,750,000) and or LT Matt Kalil ($11 mill) that will free up a lot more money. Robison is to make $5 mill so I'd let him go and let Danielle Hunter start next year.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Spielman: Talks with Smith, Greenway, Newman Ongoing
I guess I would like to hear the full 45 minutes of what Spielman said but there are some nice nuggets in here.
Greenway and Newman are expected to be back. Rick said Newman is a corner not a safety.
A lot of good things said about Mike Wallace as well although I cannot see them keeping him under his current contract.
I guess I would like to hear the full 45 minutes of what Spielman said but there are some nice nuggets in here.
Greenway and Newman are expected to be back. Rick said Newman is a corner not a safety.
A lot of good things said about Mike Wallace as well although I cannot see them keeping him under his current contract.
Beo
Footballguy
Everyone call your shot on 4 cuts, 4 signings, and 4 picks.
4 cuts- Mike Wallace, Matt Kalil, Phil Loadholt, and Brian Robison.
4 signings- Kelechi Osemele, Mitchell Schwartz, George Iloka, and Jermaine Kearse.
4 picks- Jack Conklin (1st), Josh Doctson (trade up to late 1st or early 2nd), Miles Killebrew (4th), and Drew Ott (7th)
4 cuts- Mike Wallace, Matt Kalil, Phil Loadholt, and Brian Robison.
4 signings- Kelechi Osemele, Mitchell Schwartz, George Iloka, and Jermaine Kearse.
4 picks- Jack Conklin (1st), Josh Doctson (trade up to late 1st or early 2nd), Miles Killebrew (4th), and Drew Ott (7th)
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Wow dumping Kalil and Loadholt? Who shall be playing tackle in this situation?
Looking at a recent free agent list, there are actually several different free agent offensive tackles that look to be available.
Cordy Glenn
Andre Smith
Russell Okung
Mitchell Schwartz
Kelvin Beechum
Donald Penn
Bobby Massie
Donald Stephenson
There are even more free agent guards. So re-signing Mike Harris if they want to may not be that difficult as there are many others out there other teams may be pursuing.
4 cuts - Mike Wallace, Phil Loadholt, and I cannot really think of anyone off hand that is so expensive that they should be outright cut. I would be fine with trading Peterson not cutting him. I thought about cutting Patterson but he still is one of the best kick returners in the league. If I think of someone else will add it later.
4 signings - Mike Harris G/T. RT Mitchell Schwartz, S Reggie Nelson, Marcus Sherels.
In the above scenario the Vikings has shored up their offensive line by re-signing Mike Harris and bringing in RT Schwartz. Loadholt is cut saving money and making space for Schwartz. The Vikings have also filled the FS position with Nelson pairing up with Harrison Smith.
This shifts the Vikings needs to WR. There really would not be other needs in this situation leading the Vikings to focus on BPA and not needs.
4 picks - 1st WR Josh Doctson.2nd FS Darian Thompson. 3rd G Spencer Drango. 4th a DE/LB tweener for edge rushing depth. Not sure who yet. Hunter, Griffen, Robinson have all come from the 3rd-4th round.
Looking at a recent free agent list, there are actually several different free agent offensive tackles that look to be available.
Cordy Glenn
Andre Smith
Russell Okung
Mitchell Schwartz
Kelvin Beechum
Donald Penn
Bobby Massie
Donald Stephenson
There are even more free agent guards. So re-signing Mike Harris if they want to may not be that difficult as there are many others out there other teams may be pursuing.
4 cuts - Mike Wallace, Phil Loadholt, and I cannot really think of anyone off hand that is so expensive that they should be outright cut. I would be fine with trading Peterson not cutting him. I thought about cutting Patterson but he still is one of the best kick returners in the league. If I think of someone else will add it later.
4 signings - Mike Harris G/T. RT Mitchell Schwartz, S Reggie Nelson, Marcus Sherels.
In the above scenario the Vikings has shored up their offensive line by re-signing Mike Harris and bringing in RT Schwartz. Loadholt is cut saving money and making space for Schwartz. The Vikings have also filled the FS position with Nelson pairing up with Harrison Smith.
This shifts the Vikings needs to WR. There really would not be other needs in this situation leading the Vikings to focus on BPA and not needs.
4 picks - 1st WR Josh Doctson.2nd FS Darian Thompson. 3rd G Spencer Drango. 4th a DE/LB tweener for edge rushing depth. Not sure who yet. Hunter, Griffen, Robinson have all come from the 3rd-4th round.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
2016 Minnesota Vikings Mock Draft Database: Pre-Combine Version
I don't think the Vikings play 3 LB enough to justify such a high pick on a LB who may only be needed for 30% of the defensive downs. The Vikings already used the 9th overall pick on Barr and then got lucky to have Eric Kendricks fall to them in the second round, as I think he was a 1st round talent at LB due to his coverage skills. He certainly made some mistakes at times but generally I thought both Barr and Kendricks played well when healthy.
If the Vikings did invest a 1st round pick in a LB then I would expect them to play more base packages with all 3 LB on the field more often. This means taking Munerlin or another DB off the field. Perhaps this would make the Vikings a better overall defense. Improving the run defense on 1st down and being able to play better coverage out of a base personnel group. The injury insurance helps as well. However with so many teams playing 3 or more WR I think the Vikings will use 5 defensive backs or more frequently and a LB would need to rotate out or more to the line.
I would prefer a WR or offensive lineman to the priorities over a 3rd LB if similarly graded prospects. So the only reason to take the LB is if they were by far the best player on the board.
I think safety is a bigger priority on defense than a 3rd LB is as well. Assuming Ramsey is not an option there are four safety prospects that CBS grades as second to third round picks, so pick 23 is likely too early to be taking a safety if the Vikings like all four of those players one of them may still be there for them in round two. The nice thing about Harrison Smith is you can draft any kind of safety to compliment him because he plays well as a SS or FS.
I was looking at this mock. In this scenario Doctson goes at 12 ahead of Treadwell who goes at pick 15. The LB options from above are gone before the Vikings pick and they draft OT Taylor Decker of Ohio State. The mock has a second round as well and one pick that stands out to me is Keanu Neal a safety out of Florida who was not one of the four 2nd to 3rd round safeties on CBS. So perhaps another option to consider there giving more weight to the idea that a safety can be found in the second round if the Vikings like enough of these players.
The Vikings second round pick is Rashard Higgins WR, Colorado St.who I have heard some good things about but I haven't watched yet. Higgins is taken with KIllebrew and Cash still available and are drafted shortly after in the second round.
Jaylon Smith is another LB I have seen being mocked to the Vikings.
I don't think the Vikings play 3 LB enough to justify such a high pick on a LB who may only be needed for 30% of the defensive downs. The Vikings already used the 9th overall pick on Barr and then got lucky to have Eric Kendricks fall to them in the second round, as I think he was a 1st round talent at LB due to his coverage skills. He certainly made some mistakes at times but generally I thought both Barr and Kendricks played well when healthy.
If the Vikings did invest a 1st round pick in a LB then I would expect them to play more base packages with all 3 LB on the field more often. This means taking Munerlin or another DB off the field. Perhaps this would make the Vikings a better overall defense. Improving the run defense on 1st down and being able to play better coverage out of a base personnel group. The injury insurance helps as well. However with so many teams playing 3 or more WR I think the Vikings will use 5 defensive backs or more frequently and a LB would need to rotate out or more to the line.
I would prefer a WR or offensive lineman to the priorities over a 3rd LB if similarly graded prospects. So the only reason to take the LB is if they were by far the best player on the board.
I think safety is a bigger priority on defense than a 3rd LB is as well. Assuming Ramsey is not an option there are four safety prospects that CBS grades as second to third round picks, so pick 23 is likely too early to be taking a safety if the Vikings like all four of those players one of them may still be there for them in round two. The nice thing about Harrison Smith is you can draft any kind of safety to compliment him because he plays well as a SS or FS.
I was looking at this mock. In this scenario Doctson goes at 12 ahead of Treadwell who goes at pick 15. The LB options from above are gone before the Vikings pick and they draft OT Taylor Decker of Ohio State. The mock has a second round as well and one pick that stands out to me is Keanu Neal a safety out of Florida who was not one of the four 2nd to 3rd round safeties on CBS. So perhaps another option to consider there giving more weight to the idea that a safety can be found in the second round if the Vikings like enough of these players.
The Vikings second round pick is Rashard Higgins WR, Colorado St.who I have heard some good things about but I haven't watched yet. Higgins is taken with KIllebrew and Cash still available and are drafted shortly after in the second round.
Last edited by a moderator:
Beo
Footballguy
In my scenario I have us getting Mitchell Schwartz to be our RT and us drafting Jack Conklin to be our LT. Osemele comes in to play LG, Fusco moves back to RG, and Sully comes back as the C. Clemmings moves to the swing T, Berger is our G and C backup, and we keep Easton and try and groom him behind Sully to take over in 2 or 3 years when he hangs it up. I think the time is now to get super aggressive and totally rebuild this line and by cutting Phil, Kalil, and Wallace we save 30 million dollars so we would have plenty of money to pay Schwartz and Osemele.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
i like an aggressive plan. Rick Spielman has shown a tendency to not pay out big money to free agents unless they are coming off of their 1st contract and still young enough to provide a few seasons of being in the prime of their career left.
Do you think Conklin will be better than Kalil at LT?
How bad is Kalil in your opinion? I think he is average for a LT (last season) but others think he was worse than that.
As we saw with Clemimings last season, it could be a lot worse than Kalil.
Because the salary cap is going up, all free agents will be getting more money. I was reading there is a ton of demand for Osemele who may be making 10 million a year average over his contract. So I do not see much salary cap room from exchanging Kalil for him. Perhaps he is a better player than Kalil but is he a better LT?
Schwartz is a guy who I think fits Spielmans profile for free agent targets. Schwartz may not need as much money as some of the other FA tackles or Osemele, but maybe he gets paid a ton also.
I worry that Conklin or whoever replaces Kalil plays worse than he does and the Vikings create a new hole by cutting him. There is also the loss of investment. If Kalil is a average starting LT in the league, then teams would likely give something for him in trade.
We agree about cutting Loadholt which saves enough money to pay Schwartz, who is younger and perhaps better in pass protection than Loadholt ever was. Loadholt had that one really good season, I think it was after his contract extension where he seemed to trim down a bit, he played well that year in pass protection but even at his best he still gets beat by outside speed pass rushers. Loadholt is a great run blocker, no doubt about that and a great player to Peterson, but not so good for Teddy.
If I felt comfortable with Clemmings or Shepherd or Bykowski being able to step in at LT and not play worse than Kalil then it wouldn't worry me. I saw Clemmings play last year though, so it does. Shepherd looked alright in very limited action, but you have to think he would have played more if he was significantly better than Clemmings was.
Do you think Conklin will be better than Kalil at LT?
How bad is Kalil in your opinion? I think he is average for a LT (last season) but others think he was worse than that.
As we saw with Clemimings last season, it could be a lot worse than Kalil.
Because the salary cap is going up, all free agents will be getting more money. I was reading there is a ton of demand for Osemele who may be making 10 million a year average over his contract. So I do not see much salary cap room from exchanging Kalil for him. Perhaps he is a better player than Kalil but is he a better LT?
Schwartz is a guy who I think fits Spielmans profile for free agent targets. Schwartz may not need as much money as some of the other FA tackles or Osemele, but maybe he gets paid a ton also.
I worry that Conklin or whoever replaces Kalil plays worse than he does and the Vikings create a new hole by cutting him. There is also the loss of investment. If Kalil is a average starting LT in the league, then teams would likely give something for him in trade.
We agree about cutting Loadholt which saves enough money to pay Schwartz, who is younger and perhaps better in pass protection than Loadholt ever was. Loadholt had that one really good season, I think it was after his contract extension where he seemed to trim down a bit, he played well that year in pass protection but even at his best he still gets beat by outside speed pass rushers. Loadholt is a great run blocker, no doubt about that and a great player to Peterson, but not so good for Teddy.
If I felt comfortable with Clemmings or Shepherd or Bykowski being able to step in at LT and not play worse than Kalil then it wouldn't worry me. I saw Clemmings play last year though, so it does. Shepherd looked alright in very limited action, but you have to think he would have played more if he was significantly better than Clemmings was.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I agree. I think the Vikes did very well using early picks on key defenders such as Barr/Kendricks/Rhodes/H.Smith. That said, I think I trust Zimmer's nose for filling defensive gaps with mid-late round picks and using earlier picks on blue chip OL/WR. Those positions have been put in limbo too long, and the recent track record improving those positions with mid-late round picks is not good..
Beo
Footballguy
Unfortunately I think we have already seen the best football Kalil has to offer. I don't know if it is just the injuries piling up or what but I think he is just one of those guys who peaked at 21-22 and is sliding downward. I think Conklin is a brute and by all accounts has great work ethic and was a late starter in football so much so that despite having a great Senior year wasnt recruited much because college teams had not had much tape on him. He then walked on to Michigan ST and got better and better every year and performed well against some of the best DE's in the country including a mauling of Joey Bosa this year. I hate to give up on the 4th overall pick of a draft just like I hated to give up on Ponder but sometimes you just need to cut bait and move on. Kalil will be way too expensive for very average play. I know Rick is not known to splash money around but he was in team building mode and building through the draft but now with 4 or so good draft classes and most of those players still on the team we are just a few missing pieces away from a Super Bowl contender. Right now is the time to get those last couple missing pieces. We have the money to spend by cutting a couple of players on the downswing, we are a young up and coming team getting alot of good buzz as a team to contend with, and also the new stadium is opening this year that will be attractive to free agents. Now is the time to strike recruiting wise. Overhaul the OL and pair Harrison Smith with a good SS and we go from an 11-5 Division Champ to a 13-3 or so Super Bowl contender.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I hear you Beo as this team only needs to make one more push of improving the offense to become a perennial contender for the Super Bowl.
This is why I was willing to sign Nelson who is an older defensive back at 32. However I think Nelson can still play FS at a high level for a few more seasons while the Vikings groom his replacement from the draft.
You actually went younger with Iloka who also fits the profile of a player coming off their 1st contract that Spielman has shown a preference towards. Some other things I have read lead me to think Iloka is not going to be in the cards, while Nelson is perhaps less of a priority re-signing for the Bengals.
I think Kalil does not like playing at the higher weight. That may have contributed to his injuries. I do think this is why we have seen a decline in his play since his rookie season. I think it is too late now but I would have liked to let Kalil play a bit lighter than they have, his main asset was his speed and quickness.
In a contract year Kalil played better than he had the previous two seasons but I agree he did not play great. I think he played average with some ups and downs, but that was the best he could muster in a contract year, so you are likely right that is who he is. I wouldn't expect him to improve much from this point in his career.
If the Vikings do move on from Kalil, I still think they should trade him and could possibly get a 3rd or 4th round pick in return I think because almost all teams are looking for offensive tackles who can play at an average level or better. He will start for a team regardless if that is the Vikings or not.
Depending on a rookie at LT is a risky prospect. Especially with a tackle that a lot of teams who need one passed on. I have heard mixed reviews about this offensive line class that seems to offer more players who can play well at guard for sure, and maybe could play well as a tackle than it offers pure tackle prospects.
If Josh Doctson is gone when the Vikings pick they may not like the other WR well enough at that spot and the 1st round pick could still be an offensive lineman even if the Vikings do keep Kalil. At that point the Vikings can bring the rookie along slowly and just look to release Kalil in 2017 with no dead money while still keeping him as a bridge and insurance in case the other options turn out to be not ready, like we just went through with Clemmings starting.
I am not trying to make excuses for Kalil, but he got no help from chipping TE last year because all of those resources were dedicated to helping Clemmings. So in that sense, if the Vikings are able to improve the rest of the offensive line then they should be in a better position to help Kalil at times with a TE.
If Ellison is unable to return from injury the Vikings may need to look for more TE depth as well.
This is why I was willing to sign Nelson who is an older defensive back at 32. However I think Nelson can still play FS at a high level for a few more seasons while the Vikings groom his replacement from the draft.
You actually went younger with Iloka who also fits the profile of a player coming off their 1st contract that Spielman has shown a preference towards. Some other things I have read lead me to think Iloka is not going to be in the cards, while Nelson is perhaps less of a priority re-signing for the Bengals.
I think Kalil does not like playing at the higher weight. That may have contributed to his injuries. I do think this is why we have seen a decline in his play since his rookie season. I think it is too late now but I would have liked to let Kalil play a bit lighter than they have, his main asset was his speed and quickness.
In a contract year Kalil played better than he had the previous two seasons but I agree he did not play great. I think he played average with some ups and downs, but that was the best he could muster in a contract year, so you are likely right that is who he is. I wouldn't expect him to improve much from this point in his career.
If the Vikings do move on from Kalil, I still think they should trade him and could possibly get a 3rd or 4th round pick in return I think because almost all teams are looking for offensive tackles who can play at an average level or better. He will start for a team regardless if that is the Vikings or not.
Depending on a rookie at LT is a risky prospect. Especially with a tackle that a lot of teams who need one passed on. I have heard mixed reviews about this offensive line class that seems to offer more players who can play well at guard for sure, and maybe could play well as a tackle than it offers pure tackle prospects.
If Josh Doctson is gone when the Vikings pick they may not like the other WR well enough at that spot and the 1st round pick could still be an offensive lineman even if the Vikings do keep Kalil. At that point the Vikings can bring the rookie along slowly and just look to release Kalil in 2017 with no dead money while still keeping him as a bridge and insurance in case the other options turn out to be not ready, like we just went through with Clemmings starting.
I am not trying to make excuses for Kalil, but he got no help from chipping TE last year because all of those resources were dedicated to helping Clemmings. So in that sense, if the Vikings are able to improve the rest of the offensive line then they should be in a better position to help Kalil at times with a TE.
If Ellison is unable to return from injury the Vikings may need to look for more TE depth as well.
CanadianNFLJunkie
Footballguy
With the way Spielmann likes to have 10 picks going into the draft, I wonder if they would move down the first round to obtain more picks in the 2nd or 3rd round. We're getting to the point very soon, where all these first round picks we've had over the last 4-5 yrs are coming up to their 2nd contract, so that would mean more money going to those players if worthy of keeping. So with that thought process, would we do the opposite, and trade UP to get that WR or OL?
I would think we're going to get O-line help early, first and or second round, with a Safety and or WR being secondary places to go after. I'd think we'll go after a blocking TE for sure, a punter, more pass rushing help as well.
I would think we're going to get O-line help early, first and or second round, with a Safety and or WR being secondary places to go after. I'd think we'll go after a blocking TE for sure, a punter, more pass rushing help as well.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
George Iloka! Please!!
Beo
Footballguy
YES PLEASE!!! As long as we are throwing out requests, Kelechi Osemele PLEASE....lol.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Another Media Outlet Writes Off The Vikings For 2016
I think the Vikings caught some lucky breaks last season and they easily could have lost a couple of those games and not made the playoffs last year. The game in Chicago in particular was very close and if Langford makes a reception near the end of the game the Bears would have been in position to take back the lead with a field goal or with another set of downs possibly a TD while not leaving the Vikings enough time to try to come back.
He didn't make the catch though and the Vikings won.
They were lucky Jamal Charles had been injured before the Vikings played the Chiefs. This was a difficult game and KC went on a winning streak right after this loss. I think the Vikings played them at just the right time.
There are likely some other examples of close games that easily could have went the other way as well.
The Vikings playing the NFC Least and the AFC South is about as good as it gets. Both of these divisions were terrible last season. The Jaguars look like they may have significantly improved their defense. So not saying they are the same team trying to find itself, but still probably an easier opponent than the Seahawks. Luck should be healthy so the Colts should be better because of that. The Giants seem like they have improved on defense as well. So maybe these teams are not quite as bad as they were last year, but I will still take these opponents over what the Vikings had to deal with last year.
I think the Vikings win the NFC North with 11 or 12 wins this season, I could see them slipping to 10 wins I suppose, but I don't see them regressing to 9-7 or 8-8 this year. I think the 2016 Vikings team will be better than the 2015 team was.
What do you all think the Vikings record will be in 2016?
I think the Vikings caught some lucky breaks last season and they easily could have lost a couple of those games and not made the playoffs last year. The game in Chicago in particular was very close and if Langford makes a reception near the end of the game the Bears would have been in position to take back the lead with a field goal or with another set of downs possibly a TD while not leaving the Vikings enough time to try to come back.
He didn't make the catch though and the Vikings won.
They were lucky Jamal Charles had been injured before the Vikings played the Chiefs. This was a difficult game and KC went on a winning streak right after this loss. I think the Vikings played them at just the right time.
There are likely some other examples of close games that easily could have went the other way as well.
The Vikings playing the NFC Least and the AFC South is about as good as it gets. Both of these divisions were terrible last season. The Jaguars look like they may have significantly improved their defense. So not saying they are the same team trying to find itself, but still probably an easier opponent than the Seahawks. Luck should be healthy so the Colts should be better because of that. The Giants seem like they have improved on defense as well. So maybe these teams are not quite as bad as they were last year, but I will still take these opponents over what the Vikings had to deal with last year.
I think the Vikings win the NFC North with 11 or 12 wins this season, I could see them slipping to 10 wins I suppose, but I don't see them regressing to 9-7 or 8-8 this year. I think the 2016 Vikings team will be better than the 2015 team was.
What do you all think the Vikings record will be in 2016?
BigJim®
Footballguy
I'm a little surprised myself that they finished 11-5 with the ongoing OL struggles. It crippled our offense. The Langford drop was a gift, no question. We won our share of dogfights, and the team might have finished 10-6 or worse.
Record aside, it's actually two losses that told me all I need to know about the 2015 squad. They overcame 7 sacks in the 23-20 loss at Denver, where a pass protection breakdown killed a great 2 minute drive. The playoff loss against Seattle, they outplayed the most dangerous team in the NCF (IMHO). Games against the best show this team can play with anyone, and I don't expect that to change in 2016.
I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. I just can't imagine that 3 offensive coordinators can't figure something out on offense. I can't remember being more excited with the direction of the defense.
11-5
Similar threads
