***Official Pittsburgh Prospects 2009 thread *** (2 Viewers)

[you]

Ohlendorf for Nady - looks like a steal for the pirates at this point.

 

[monessen]

Analysis from Rotoworld column posted this weekend:

- Jeff Clement was hitting .288/.366/.505 at Triple-A Tacoma when the Pirates picked him up from the Mariners as the biggest piece in the Jack Wilson-Ian Snell trade. He was 25 (now 26) and healthy at the time of the deal. There was every reason to call him up immediately and give him a long look at first base. Instead, the Pirates waited for him to suffer a strained oblique at the end of August, and now it appears that he'll end up going the entire season without a major league at-bat. Meanwhile, Steve Pearce is hitting .181/.227/.301 against righties while continuing to get plenty of time at first base.

I know I'm supposed to be optimistic about the Pirates' sudden large-scale rebuilding effort, and some of the moves were pretty encouraging. However, I'm a long way from being convinced that the right people are in charge. The handling of Tom Gorzelanny, in particular, leaves me skeptical.

- The Pirates have done better with Lastings Milledge, at least when they're not having him drop down sac bunts in the ninth innings of tie games, like they did Saturday. Positioned in the cleanup spot behind Garrett Jones, he's suddenly reemerged as a legitimate option in mixed leagues.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

We're number 1.

Buccos own a record that will never be broken. Well except for by themselves next year and the year after that.

 

[monessen]

The Cowboy is right.

The Bucs were 31-34 on June 17, which wasn't too bad and fairly close to .500. After the flurry of salary dumping (I will be curious to see what their payroll will be on Opening Day 2010), which must have killed morale, they've gone 23-48 since. From June 19-Aug 17, they went 16-36. I do not expect 2010 to be a winning season and fans ought to be offended by statements from the GM that the team's direction shouldn't be judged until after 2011. Forgive me for not finding a team with a .317 winning % over the past 3 months as being especially compelling. Just to get back to that elusive 74 win per season range in a few years seems unlikely right now.

However, Chuck Noll was 1-13 his first year before the Steelers built a dynasty. Maybe if the Bucs can resist trading the McCutchens for "prospects," they can be decent by 2012.

 

[Steelers4Life]

The Cowboy is right.The Bucs were 31-34 on June 17, which wasn't too bad and fairly close to .500. After the flurry of salary dumping (I will be curious to see what their payroll will be on Opening Day 2010), which must have killed morale, they've gone 23-48 since. From June 19-Aug 17, they went 16-36. I do not expect 2010 to be a winning season and fans ought to be offended by statements from the GM that the team's direction shouldn't be judged until after 2011. Forgive me for not finding a team with a .317 winning % over the past 3 months as being especially compelling. Just to get back to that elusive 74 win per season range in a few years seems unlikely right now. However, Chuck Noll was 1-13 his first year before the Steelers built a dynasty. Maybe if the Bucs can resist trading the McCutchens for "prospects," they can be decent by 2012.

It's attitudes like this that make me just scratch my head. Monessen's attitude about the Pirates is clear, but I can't disagree more. The team was doing it with smoke and mirrors at the beginning of the year, but there was no foundation of young talent to sustain any kind of success and it was largely the same roster that has been terrible for the last several years. The current group isn't trying to put together a one year run at a .500 record. They're trying to build up a system that will enable the Pirates to sustain a competitive team and if enough pieces fall into place at the right time, a championship team. Past groups have traded some good players, but they've never taken on a complete rebuild like this. They only traded veterans at the end of contracts for lesser value, dumped salary, and looked for short-term fixes on the free agent market.Who cares if they can approach a .500 record with guys like the mediocrity they traded with no help on the way anywhere in the system? It's far more compelling team to see young players develop and improve and know that even more pieces are finally on the way.No, I doubt the 2010 team will be drastically improved unless Alvarez comes up early and provides another middle-of-the-order presense and some combination of Morton, Hart, McCutchen, Lincoln, Ohlendorf, Duke, and Mahlolm turns into at least a rotation full of #3 starters. But they're all young and most of them figure to improve as they learn how to get major leaguers out with more experience. The bullpen is a disaster right now, but we'll see what changes there before next season starts.By 2011, the pitchers should have enough experience, some of those A and High A ball pitchers should be approaching AA and AAA, Tabata and Alvarez should be up, McCutchen should be established, and personally I expect Milledge to be pretty darn good too. 2011 and 2012 should be pretty exciting with a lot of improvement.

 

[monessen]

June 17 was 65 games into the season. I wouldn't characterize that as the beginning of the year since it was 2 and a half months in. In other words, there was no rush to conduct the fire sale and there seemed to be a frenzy about it intimating either that the team had a premeditated plan to purge irrespective of their record or that they didn't investigate all the potential offers before they consummated the ones they did. The almost-daily deal connoted something suspicious.

That 1997 team didn't do too badly with smoke and mirrors. It was a terribly flawed team that put on a great run.

A reasonable foundation of young talent this season was already in place----McCutchens #1 and #2, Tabata, Alvarez, Lincoln, etc., already mentioned.

The Pirates did conduct an even more serious overhaul from 1968-1969. They divested themselves of starting players Maury Wills, Jim Pagliaroni, Donn Clendenon, along with other mainstays like Roy Face, Al McBean, Bill Virdon, Manny Mota, Juan Pizarro with other vets like Dave Wickersham, Chris Cannizaro, Carl Taylor, and Bill Henry while phasing out Maz and Alley as the keystone combo and easing in young starts like Patek, Dave Cash, Hebner, Bob Robertson, Al Oliver, Manny Sanguillen, Dock Ellis, etc. They were confident the young players could fit in around Stargell, Clemente, Blass, etc. and it worked out by 1970. Now that was some serious turnover with positive results.

 

[Steelers4Life]

June 17 was 65 games into the season. I wouldn't characterize that as the beginning of the year since it was 2 and a half months in. In other words, there was no rush to conduct the fire sale and there seemed to be a frenzy about it intimating either that the team had a premeditated plan to purge irrespective of their record or that they didn't investigate all the potential offers before they consummated the ones they did. The almost-daily deal connoted something suspicious.That 1997 team didn't do too badly with smoke and mirrors. It was a terribly flawed team that put on a great run.A reasonable foundation of young talent this season was already in place----McCutchens #1 and #2, Tabata, Alvarez, Lincoln, etc., already mentioned.The Pirates did conduct an even more serious overhaul from 1968-1969. They divested themselves of starting players Maury Wills, Jim Pagliaroni, Donn Clendenon, along with other mainstays like Roy Face, Al McBean, Bill Virdon, Manny Mota, Juan Pizarro with other vets like Dave Wickersham, Chris Cannizaro, Carl Taylor, and Bill Henry while phasing out Maz and Alley as the keystone combo and easing in young starts like Patek, Dave Cash, Hebner, Bob Robertson, Al Oliver, Manny Sanguillen, Dock Ellis, etc. They were confident the young players could fit in around Stargell, Clemente, Blass, etc. and it worked out by 1970. Now that was some serious turnover with positive results.

That 1997 team was the WORST thing that could've happened. It made them hold onto that team when it wasn't in their long term best interests to do so. A sub .500 team or even a fringe .500 team making a run at the playoffs isn't an accomplishment when it's a team that has virtually no chance to sustain any success beyond a fluky season in a poor division. It gave the front office something to hang their hat on even though the team wasn't good at all. I'm thankful that Huntington didn't take that same approach.I'm sure the current group got the best deals out there considering who they actually moved. Those deals didn't have the feel of being consumated overnight, and they were viewed as a success almsot universally by any website that analyzes that stuff.And that is not a reasonable foundation of young talent. The Pirates were viewed as having a very, very weak farm system before this year. There needs to be FAR more depth at all levels than what was there to start the season. Today, there's much improved depth, better quality, and a much greater chance of future success. This organization got into a lot of trouble by pinning their hopes on just a few players, and when those players failed, they had no one else to fall back on. It was the result of years of poor drafting, a lack of investment in the minors, and poor decisions. The current group is changing all that.Hopefully the trades made over the past two years have a positive impact by 2011 or so, and it leads to a lot of years of competitive baseball in Pittsburgh. 2010 should be exciting for no other reason than it should mark the major league debuts of Alvarez, Tabata, Lincoln, Moskos, and a number of other future pieces. Slowly, more and more talent will make it the majors, but this time, there will be talent below them that should eventually push to take their places. So, if we someday trade a veteran, it won't be like the case was with Jack Wilson or Freddy Sanchez where there was no one within the organization ready to step in.

 

[monessen]

Steelers4Life, I hope you are right, and that I am off-base. Would love to see an aggressive, contending team.

One screwy thing about their division is the notion that there are 6 teams. I realize that the lack of symmetry has been in place for some time and may not have affected the Bucs much. But I can't quite understand how Selig can't equalize the divisions across the leagues. This is all about Kansas City's reluctance to play in the West because of how late the games would begin for those Midwestern fans? That's how I understand it. Yet somehow they are ok with it in Dallas. If they could convince KC to move, Milwaukee could shift back to the AL. The Brewers don't quite seem to have the rivalries in the NL they had in the AL, IMHO. When I think Brew Crew, it's Molitor, Yount, Cooper, Hisle, Gorman Thomas, etc.

 

[monessen]

http://www.murraychass.com/?p=980

I couldn't find anything in this long-time, respected writer's analysis to disagree with.

 

[CrossEyed]

http://www.murraychass.com/?p=980

I couldn't find anything in this long-time, respected writer's analysis to disagree with.

 

[Copeman]

Why the #### would Russell pull Duke last night when they had a 10 run lead and he needed one more out? Pretty classless move there.

 

[CrossEyed]

Pirates lose out on Dominican prospect to Twins

Tuesday, September 29, 2009

By Dejan Kovacevic, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

CHICAGO -- The Pirates lost out on top Dominican prospect Miguel Angel Sano, who agreed to terms with the Minnesota Twins today on a $3.15 million signing bonus.

Sano, a shortstop expected to convert to the outfield, is expected to sign his contract later this week, agent Rob Plummer said.

"You know, I feel like I was in touch with the Pittsburgh fans on this, from reading the blogs and message boards, and I feel bad for them," Plummer said. "Sano could have been a Pirate. And when the fans see the figure Miguel signs for, they'll know that."

Plummer made clear that his relationship with the Pirates, particularly general manager Neal Huntington and Latin American scouting director Rene Gayo, became frayed during the process.

The Pirates were the only team to make an offer -- $2 million -- when the July 2 international signing period began, opening with $2 million. They raised that to $2.6 million a month ago, the latter payment to be split in three parts.

But talks were minimal in the past three weeks. Plummer had asked all teams for more time because he wanted to sort through Sano's visa and age issues -- a Major League Baseball investigation called his age "undetermined" despite Sano's claim of being 16 -- but the Pirates remained aggressive, including regular contact with Sano and his family.

Through it all, each side expressed strong distrust in the other.

"I think contracts are made entirely of relationships, that people should have a comfort level," Plummer said. "Things fell apart because Pittsburgh never believed I had other teams interested in Miguel. I gave Neal every opportunity to sign Miguel for a reasonable amount, but he was afraid he was bidding against himself. When he sees the signing, he'll see that."

Huntington and Plummer had agreed last month that the Pirates would get a call once he reached agreement with any team, but both sides acknowledged today that Plummer never called them back.

Huntington declined comment on the matter until Minnesota announces the signing.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09272/10017...l#ixzz0SYPmAzKZ

This franchise will never compete under the current ownership/management.Pathetic.

 

[Unlucky]

1. Poor move pulling Duke when 1 out away from complete game. Obviously, a move to keep his stats down and thus save the club money in the long run.

2. Dip####s for not being able to sign Sano. Nice work, guys. I'm sure that extra few hundred thousand was going to break the bank. Obviously, it wasn't the money but the way they mishandled the situation.

3. 1 more win to avoid 100 losses. Great. Awesome when you are rooting for the team to avoid 100 losses, as if that's some sort of accomplishment.

4. Hockey season starts tonight!

 

[CrossEyed]

1. Poor move pulling Duke when 1 out away from complete game. Obviously, a move to keep his stats down and thus save the club money in the long run. 2. Dip####s for not being able to sign Sano. Nice work, guys. I'm sure that extra few hundred thousand was going to break the bank. Obviously, it wasn't the money but the way they mishandled the situation. 3. 1 more win to avoid 100 losses. Great. Awesome when you are rooting for the team to avoid 100 losses, as if that's some sort of accomplishment. 4. Hockey season starts tonight!

1. The only thing worse than the move was the explanation. 2. Completely agree. They want it to look like they are trying, but they really don't want to do the things they need to do to compete.3. Wait 'til next season. 100 losses is a lead pipe lock.4.

 

[CrossEyed]

This about sums it up:

Cook: Who cares what Pirates do anymore?

Monday, December 14, 2009

By Ron Cook, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

I'm trying really hard to work up a good case of angst over the Pirates' decision to release closer Matt Capps in what clearly is another salary dump. But I can't. How do you get upset over something you don't care about?

I guess that's what really ticks me off most, that the Pirates have become so irrelevant in our sporting consciousness. Baseball is such a beautiful game and we're stuck with the worst franchise with the worst ownership in the sport. What did we do so wrong?

So what if the Pirates let Capps go and almost certainly will head into the 2010 season without anything even remotely resembling a bullpen hammer? What's the big deal? They're the Pirates, right? Maybe they'll lose 105 games instead of 99. It really doesn't matter what moves they make, does it?

On some level, I suppose, the decision to release Capps isn't completely idiotic. The way baseball's wacky economic system works, he was due a raise through arbitration from his $2.425 million salary last season. That despite the fact he badly underachieved with a 4-8 record, five blown saves and a 5.80 earned run average. It is safe to say Joe Kerrigan, whom the Pirates like to portray as the pied piper of pitching coaches, couldn't get through to him. That can mean only one thing, of course: Poor Capps must be hopeless.

Not to be cynical.

Speaking of Kerrigan, who might be just a bit overhyped and overrated, is there another organization in sports that promotes its coaches more than the Pirates? I guess that's what you have to do when you never have a winning team and are the biggest sports joke in town. It was as if the world was ending when the club lost infield instructor Perry Hill after last season. Shame on me, but I don't see that as such a big issue. So maybe the Pirates will lose 110 games instead of 105. Really, what's the difference?

But back to Capps.

I had to laugh out loud at the Post-Gazette report last week that said Pirates general manager Neal Huntington threatened to release Capps and not take him to arbitration if he didn't agree to the team's contract offer. That's really showing him, isn't it? If I'm Capps, I'm begging to be released. At least now, as a free agent, he has a chance to go to a club that knows what it is doing and has a chance to win. Huntington did him a favor.

Teams all over baseball are looking for relief pitching. That includes the Pirates, who, after releasing Capps and left-hander Phil Dumatrait over the weekend, are looking at a bullpen next season of Joel Hanrahan, Evan Meek and what other low-priced stiffs they can find to put out there. Good luck with that.

I know Capps isn't Mariano Rivera, but it is incomprehensible how the Pirates can give away one of their few commodities without getting anything in return.

Now that is completely idiotic.

It's hardly unfathomable that Capps will bounce back to have a much better season in '10. It's not uncommon for a relief pitcher to have a bad year. Huntington knows that. He has said that any reliever's performance is the toughest thing to predict from one year to the next.

Capps was pretty decent before last season. Just last week, Pirates manager John Russell talked as if he planned on him as his closer again in '10. "It's Matt's job to lose."

So much for that.

Capps lost the job without throwing a pitch.

All because he might make -- heaven forbid! -- $3 million-and-change next season.

What a franchise!

The Pirates want us to believe that this wasn't a salary dump, that it merely was about the team wanting better value for its dollars. Funny, that's what management said after parting ways last season with pricey veterans Nate McLouth, Adam LaRoche, Jack Wilson, Ian Snell, Freddy Sanchez and John Grabow. After each move, the payroll went down, much to the delight of Bob Nutting, the sport's worst owner but a tremendous businessman. It is far beyond the point now that it is hard to believe anything that anyone in the organization says. It's an absolute farce. The franchise is an absolute farce.

Here's the most absurd part:

In Dejan Kovacevic's well-timed two-part series in the Post-Gazette last week examining the Pirates' finances, team president Frank Coonelly actually had the nerve to moan that too much attention is paid to the club's major league payroll.

I couldn't make that up.

Well, I'm here this morning to tell you that tiny payroll number isn't what is so troubling. These numbers are: 99, 95, 94, 95, 95, 89, 87, 89, 100, 93, 83, 93, 83, 89, 86, 61 and 87.

That's the number of Pirates' losses going backward for the past 17 years. (You have to put an asterisk beside the 61 because it came in the strike-shortened 1994 season).

You might care if the team loses 115 games next season.

I don't.

I stopped caring a long time ago.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09348/10208...m#ixzz0Zgs2SXGI