PFT's Mike Florio Says There Was Evidence That Showed NE Did Not Deflate Footballs (1 Viewer)

[Anarchy99]

Florio has a book coming out, so it's hard to fully understand what he is alleging happened and how he knows about it. So far only certain sections have come out. LINK

The two main takeaways are, according to Florio, Troy Vincent, NFL VP of Football Operations, was the source that leaked the "11 of 12 footballs were at least 2 pounds underinflated" to ESPN's Chris Mortensen 7 years ago. Florio points out that he is not sure if the league intentionally fabricated the PSI readings or not, or if Vincent knew the information was inaccurate, but he is confident that the league was what stirred the pot and launched the Deflategate scandal. Vincent was also the one that coordinated the league's case and interaction with Tom Brady, and Vincent was the one that determined TB12 needed to be fined and suspended.

The other revelation from Florio is that, according to him, the league monitored football inflation and PSI levels for the entire 2015 season. The data from those studies showed that the PSI readings from the NE/IND were consistent with what the league found in their research. This would have exonerated the Patriots and indicated that the team did not willingly cause the footballs that night to be underinflated. General counsel Jeff Pash, who represented the NFL in the subsequent court battles with Brady, then issued a direct order that the data from their inflation study be deleted.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Let's just save time and tell all the homers what they want to hear:

The New England Patriots have never once did anything wrong. All of their "transgressions have been completely made up because the entire world is jealous of the New England Patriots. The NFL has done them dirty time and time again. Brady rules!!!! 

/thread.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Not a Pats homer at all, but I've always believed that Deflategate was BS. I don't think Brady told the ball boys to do anything, I don't think they did actually do anything, and whatever PSI levels the balls were at, I don't believe it gave Brady any kind of an unfair advantage. I think the most plausible explanation is that it was a make-up call by Goodell for Spygate.

Fifteen years ago I wouldn't have necessarily believed that kind of conspiracy, but over the past two decades we have seen the NFL screw up investigations over and over again: Spygate, Bountygate, Deflategate, Ray Rice, Daniel Snyder, etc. Tagliabue had his faults, but he was a lawyer by training, so in situations like that he emphasized due process. Goodell's investigations always seem to result in whatever decision happens to be in his and the league's best interests. IMO whatever conclusions they came to about Brady deserve zero weight. 

 

[Anarchy99]

Let's just save time and tell all the homers what they want to hear:

The New England Patriots have never once did anything wrong. All of their "transgressions have been completely made up because the entire world is jealous of the New England Patriots. The NFL has done them dirty time and time again. Brady rules!!!! 

/thread.

No one is saying the Patriots are absolved of all their sins or that they never even had an impure thought. But to me, the league either willingly providing false information to the media, or knowing the reports were false did nothing to quash it is a bit deal, as is letting the whole charade go on for two years and then deleting the data that would have showed it was science not malfeasance that impacted the footballs against IND. I get it, people are sick of the Patriots, but the league knowingly (allegedly) knew the entire incident was a nothing burger and still raked Brady over the coals over it is a bit disturbing.

Yes, I get that 31 other owners were peeved at NE and felt they got a slap on the wrist for Spygate. But going to the lengths they appear to have gone to punish Brady seems wrong to me. IMO, if the rest of the league insisted the Pats take more damage from Spygate, the league should have just said upon further review NE needed more punishment for Spygate. That would have been above board and even NE fans would have tolerated that more than what they did with Deflategate. 

 

[Bigboy10182000]

The league had a horrible year these last 8 days. 

 

[FreeBaGeL]

What did the league stand to gain by damaging the image of the face of the league, hurting a personal friendship of Goodell's, and casting doubt on the legitimacy of Super Bowls that they make an ungodly amount of money on?

I never really dove THAT far into the evidence.  But what exactly is the theory here.  The league wanted to ruin their own image because....?

 

[Anarchy99]

What did the league stand to gain by damaging the image of the face of the league, hurting a personal friendship of Goodell's, and casting doubt on the legitimacy of Super Bowls that they make an ungodly amount of money on?

I never really dove THAT far into the evidence.  But what exactly is the theory here.  The league wanted to ruin their own image because....?

The working theory for years has been that the Patriots crossed the line of lots of official rules and essentially went overboard in terms of the limits of fair play. At the time, reports came out that many of the other owners wanted the Pats nailed to the cross for their indiscretions over the years. Goodell has 32 masters, so he did what he was told to do. That will never be an official statement or policy, but the owners tell him what to do, not the other way around. How or why they picked PSI levels of footballs as there point of attack is a mystery. But that's what they went with.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

The working theory for years has been that the Patriots crossed the line of lots of official rules and essentially went overboard in terms of the limits of fair play. At the time, reports came out that many of the other owners wanted the Pats nailed to the cross for their indiscretions over the years. Goodell has 32 masters, so he did what he was told to do. That will never be an official statement or policy, but the owners tell him what to do, not the other way around. How or why they picked PSI levels of footballs as there point of attack is a mystery. But that's what they went with.

I've always thought this was the most plausible explanation. The second most plausible is that they did find damning evidence against Brady, but they're such incompetent communicators that they were unable to come out and present that evidence in a convincing manner. Which I'm definitely not ruling out!

 

[Dr. Octopus]

They obviously nicknamed one of the ball boys "the deflator" because he was trying to lose weight.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Terry Bradshaw did it also!!!

 

[Anarchy99]

Unlike true blind Patriots homers, I readily admit the Pats have done plenty of unscrupulous things and likely crossed the line in lots of ways. The best way I could describe it (and have in the past) is other teams have probably dabbled in things where both feet had crossed the line 2 or 3 times in a couple of areas. But NE has made it a common business practice to try to get as far as they can and still have a plausible explanation that whatever they are doing complies with the spirit of the rules. And instead of 2 or 3 grey areas, they bend the rules across like 100 areas. That's why teams / owners really don't care for them. BB will look for any angle he can get and exploit the rules in an effort to win.

What I don't get (as an overall strategy) is why other teams don't try or do a better job in replicating what NE does / has done. Maybe I am in the minority, but I am all in favor of a coach going all in to try to win. Obviously, I would rule out things like intentionally trying to injure the opposing team's best player or planting incriminating evidence so other teams would get caught and punished. 

I know the "but other teams are doing it" is a tired catch all phrase, which is one that has come up regularly for NE fans. Like I just said, some teams have done things to try to skirt a few rules. NE likely does things to skirt EVERY rule. Yeah, I get it, most teams don't draft the GOAT QB in the 6th round and hold on to him for 20 years, so emulating what the Patriots do is not as easy as it looks. But in terms of scheme, roster construction, salary cap management, game planning, conditioning, etc., I think teams could better model some of what they do after the Pats and be better for it. I'm sure some people will jump on me and say, "Yeah, my team could cheat repeatedly, but we don't play that way." To which I would say, I doubt your team has complied with every rule 100% of the time, and gamesmanship has been around for as long as they've played football. But I certainly could see where fans of other teams would collectively look at the team and say, if nothing else, they are guilty of tyranny, villiany, and crimes against humanity.

 

[Da Guru]

The league had a horrible year these last 8 days. 

Not really.

In terms of popularity, it really does not matter. The NFL is  King in this country.  Nobody cares about how many LBs of air are in the balls, or who coaches who, or if Karama beat some guy up in a nightclub, or AB quit in mid game.  Driving today all I heard was about the upcoming draft. Nobody talks about MLB, NBA or NHL year round like the NFL.

Whatever happens the machine that is the NFL keeps chugging along.

 

[Anarchy99]

Not really.

In terms of popularity, it really does not matter. The NFL is the King in this country.  Nobody cares about how many LBs of air are in the balls, or who coaches who, or if Karama beat some guy up in a nightclub, or AB quite mid game.  Driving today all I heard was about the coming draft.

Whatever happens the machine that is the NFL keeps chugging along.

Football isn't going anywhere and it's still the most popular and most watched sport by far. But between sports talk TV, radio, and web content, I have seen very little about, you know, the Super Bowl, which is only a few days away. That normally is first and foremost for sports coverage this week, and I haven't seen much about it. Other things have been in the news about football, as you said there's some draft talk, and here in NE it's all about Brady retiring. Locally, they are trying to get people into the Olympics (which isn't happening). If I didn't know the SB was coming, I might not even know about it. (To be fair, with NE out of the running, there is less talk here about other teams or the SB, but I would still think that there would be some chatter about it.)

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Football isn't going anywhere and it's still the most popular and most watched sport by far. But between sports talk TV, radio, and web content, I have seen very little about, you know, the Super Bowl, which is only a few days away. That normally is first and foremost for sports coverage this week, and I haven't seen much about it. Other things have been in the news about football, as you said there's some draft talk, and here in NE it's all about Brady retiring. Locally, they are trying to get people into the Olympics (which isn't happening). If I didn't know the SB was coming, I might not even know about it. (To be fair, with NE out of the running, there is less talk here about other teams or the SB, but I would still think that there would be some chatter about it.)

I feel like it’s become a thing for there to be stories like these before the Super Bowl recently.

 

[bostonfred]

I still get a little angry every winter when my tire pressure light goes off and the basketball is flat but I'm over it.  Since that supposedly huge advantage, Brady has gone to 5 of the past 7 superbowls and won 4, plus a league mvp (and he may have another). If he'd come into the league as a 37 year old rookie he'd still be in the conversation for greatest of all time, but when you add in those other five superbowl appearances, three superbowl rings, two more league mvps, plus the record setting 2007 season and him setting the career records for wins touchdowns yards and on and on... even the manning and rodgers and Montana homers are way over it.  It's just an attention grabbing move while he's in the spotlight and they can get maximum book sales for bringing up the past. It's over.

 

[greenmountaingoat]

Let's just save time and tell all the homers what they want to hear:

The New England Patriots have never once did anything wrong. All of their "transgressions have been completely made up because the entire world is jealous of the New England Patriots. The NFL has done them dirty time and time again. Brady rules!!!! 

/thread.

I haven't been on FBG for that long.

https://yourteamcheats.com/

Should be required reading and the only sane response to folks that have their knickers in a knot about New England cheating.

There's a really long list of issues with every team. I can only imagine the spygate thing has been beaten like 10 dead horses around here and that deflategate, if rational folks prevailed, was treated as the joke that it was.

This news (if true) pretty much solidifies that the bolded is actually true. 

 

[greenmountaingoat]

Unlike true blind Patriots homers, I readily admit the Pats have done plenty of unscrupulous things and likely crossed the line in lots of ways. The best way I could describe it (and have in the past) is other teams have probably dabbled in things where both feet had crossed the line 2 or 3 times in a couple of areas. But NE has made it a common business practice to try to get as far as they can and still have a plausible explanation that whatever they are doing complies with the spirit of the rules. And instead of 2 or 3 grey areas, they bend the rules across like 100 areas. That's why teams / owners really don't care for them. BB will look for any angle he can get and exploit the rules in an effort to win.

What I don't get (as an overall strategy) is why other teams don't try or do a better job in replicating what NE does / has done. Maybe I am in the minority, but I am all in favor of a coach going all in to try to win. Obviously, I would rule out things like intentionally trying to injure the opposing team's best player or planting incriminating evidence so other teams would get caught and punished. 

I know the "but other teams are doing it" is a tired catch all phrase, which is one that has come up regularly for NE fans. Like I just said, some teams have done things to try to skirt a few rules. NE likely does things to skirt EVERY rule. Yeah, I get it, most teams don't draft the GOAT QB in the 6th round and hold on to him for 20 years, so emulating what the Patriots do is not as easy as it looks. But in terms of scheme, roster construction, salary cap management, game planning, conditioning, etc., I think teams could better model some of what they do after the Pats and be better for it. I'm sure some people will jump on me and say, "Yeah, my team could cheat repeatedly, but we don't play that way." To which I would say, I doubt your team has complied with every rule 100% of the time, and gamesmanship has been around for as long as they've played football. But I certainly could see where fans of other teams would collectively look at the team and say, if nothing else, they are guilty of tyranny, villiany, and crimes against humanity.

The eligible receivers deal in the playoff game against Baltimore comes to mind. Harbaugh did NOT seem pleased with that one. 

As does Vrabel and the delay of game thing. Bill didn't enjoy being on the receiving end. 

I always wondered if this was part of what Ernie Adams deal was. 

 

[Anarchy99]

The eligible receivers deal in the playoff game against Baltimore comes to mind. Harbaugh did NOT seem pleased with that one. 

As does Vrabel and the delay of game thing. Bill didn't enjoy being on the receiving end. 

I always wondered if this was part of what Ernie Adams deal was. 

Yeah, what Ernie Adams' role was to this day is shrouded in mystery. It's like he was one part Lord Voldermort and two parts Keyser Söze.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

I can only imagine the spygate thing has been beaten like 10 dead horses around here and that deflategate, if rational folks prevailed, was treated as the joke that it was.

the volume of spygate content on the forums is epic.  no one "prevailed" in the deflategate discussion, in part because the constituency, like the owners, felt that NE got off light for spygate and therefore listening to Pats fans whine about the unfairness of deflategate (regardless of whether it really was unfair) was not a concession the asterisk community was willing to make.

shorter version: deflategate was not treated as a joke, despite the fact that it was.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Yeah, what Ernie Adams' role was to this day is shrouded in mystery. It's like he was one part Lord Voldermort and two parts Keyser Söze.

It seems clear to me that Adams' role was to identify opportunities to exploit, whether through opponent tendencies, rule ambiguity, etc. up to and including opportunities violating the spirit or the letter of rules.  of course no other team in the nfl would ever do such a thing, and no such admissions were made by former players, coaches and front office people during the spygate era (hint: sarcasm).

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Brady was suspended for 4 games by Goodell IIRC, he was found guilty and sentenced, not sure what retrying the case now is going to prove. 

It's all here say, nobody is going to stop calling him a cheater if they have been all along to this point, the book won't change anyone's opinion.  

 

[Anarchy99]

Brady was suspended for 4 games by Goodell IIRC, he was found guilty and sentenced, not sure what retrying the case now is going to prove. 

It's all here say, nobody is going to stop calling him a cheater if they have been all along to this point, the book won't change anyone's opinion.  

Sorry my friend, he was not found guilty. The NFL's general counsel, under oath on the witness stand, admitted in court they had nothing on Brady and there was no direct evidence linking Brady to any wrongdoing in the game against the Colts. But the court case was not about Brady's guilt or innocence. It was about whether the CBA granted the commissioner unconditional right to discipline Brady and granted Goodell the power to penalize players at his discretion, whether justified or not. That's what the court ruling was about. Based on labor and contract law, the appellate court ruled that the CBA granted Goodell the all-knowing power to serve as judge, jury, and executioner as he saw fit. But that's different than being "found guilty." Brady was not on trial. He was never charged with a crime, so obviously he was not sentenced. The takeaway from two years of investigations, reports, interviews, testing, the Ideal gas law, court filings, appeals, and court decisions was that the commissioner essentially had the right to do whatever he wanted (warranted or not). The court reaffirmed he had that power . . . but none of the court stuff proved "Brady did it."

That being said, I will readily admit that the Patriots have done any number of shady things, and Brady most likely was far from squeaky clean and was deserving of a suspension for something. Just not what he went down for. And I still believe BB sits in his office and with a straight face will say, "All it cost us was a first-round pick (in the case of Spygate) and a million bucks and we won how many championships?" I also think BB when he catches wind of whatever the league might be investigating him on at any point in time actually thinks they have no idea about the 100 other things that he's doing that they have no clue about.

How people feel about that will vary by ZIP code. To some he's a hero, to others he's one step worse than the devil.

 

[Chaka]

It's 2022, does anyone care anymore?

ETA: I like PFT a ton but I'm very much over 1) his shilling his book & 2) dead controversies like deflated footballs or tuck rules. We all know it was a fumble, Brady called it a fumble, the NFL hates the Raiders, true fact, and they got screwed. The end. It's a footnote for everyone but Raider fans. Patriots fans hope everyone forgets how lucky they got that the NFL B.S.d their way to a victory on their behalf, and they got their wish. The end.

Sorry...what were we talking about?

 

[Da Guru]

Football isn't going anywhere and it's still the most popular and most watched sport by far. But between sports talk TV, radio, and web content, I have seen very little about, you know, the Super Bowl, which is only a few days away. That normally is first and foremost for sports coverage this week, and I haven't seen much about it. Other things have been in the news about football, as you said there's some draft talk, and here in NE it's all about Brady retiring. Locally, they are trying to get people into the Olympics (which isn't happening). If I didn't know the SB was coming, I might not even know about it. (To be fair, with NE out of the running, there is less talk here about other teams or the SB, but I would still think that there would be some chatter about it.)

Probably the matchup.   The game will always be the game.   But if it were a Brady-Mahomes rematch i agree there would be much more chatter.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Sorry my friend, he was not found guilty. The NFL's general counsel, under oath on the witness stand, admitted in court they had nothing on Brady and there was no direct evidence linking Brady to any wrongdoing in the game against the Colts. But the court case was not about Brady's guilt or innocence. It was about whether the CBA granted the commissioner unconditional right to discipline Brady and granted Goodell the power to penalize players at his discretion, whether justified or not. That's what the court ruling was about. Based on labor and contract law, the appellate court ruled that the CBA granted Goodell the all-knowing power to serve as judge, jury, and executioner as he saw fit. But that's different than being "found guilty." Brady was not on trial. He was never charged with a crime, so obviously he was not sentenced. The takeaway from two years of investigations, reports, interviews, testing, the Ideal gas law, court filings, appeals, and court decisions was that the commissioner essentially had the right to do whatever he wanted (warranted or not). The court reaffirmed he had that power . . . but none of the court stuff proved "Brady did it."

Actually, you reminded me of the No. 1 reason I believe Brady had nothing to do with any deflation scheme: He categorically denied it in Federal court testimony. Up until that point, the only thing Brady could have been accused of was breaking the NFL's rules. But once he testified, he was opening himself up to potential perjury charges. There would have been no reason for him to do that if he were guilty; he could have used weasel words or left himself some kind of opening. The fact that he didn't leaves us with only three possibilities: 1. He's an idiot. 2. His lawyers were idiots. 3. He was innocent.

I'm putting my money on 3.

 

[Anarchy99]

Actually, you reminded me of the No. 1 reason I believe Brady had nothing to do with any deflation scheme: He categorically denied it in Federal court testimony. Up until that point, the only thing Brady could have been accused of was breaking the NFL's rules. But once he testified, he was opening himself up to potential perjury charges. There would have been no reason for him to do that if he were guilty; he could have used weasel words or left himself some kind of opening. The fact that he didn't leaves us with only three possibilities: 1. He's an idiot. 2. His lawyers were idiots. 3. He was innocent.

I'm putting my money on 3.

I would suggest there was a #4 option. Maybe the equipment guys knew what inflation level Brady liked the footballs, and they had been altering the footballs ever so slightly for years by taking a little bit of air out. Say he mentioned that to them in training camp one day . . . that he liked the footballs inflated on the lowest side of the PSI range. (I believe essentially that is what happened . . . for home games, NE inflated the footballs to the lowest legal PSI as possible and occasionally they might have missed the mark by a smidge).

As far as Brady's statement in court, if he himself didn't do anything, and he didn't tell anyone else to do anything, I think his testimony that he had nothing to do with any deflation scheme would technically be correct (ie, he wasn't perjuring himself). That essentially is what the league claimed . . . that NE had not been adhering to the PSI rules for years. Personally, I don't see whatever range the PSI was made any difference. The only reason it ever became a rule in the first place was that inflation range is what the manufacturer recommended. If someone has studied things and somehow determined that it gave NE a competitive advantage, I welcome the opportunity to review it.

Getting back to the court case, the first judge ruled that the league had nothing that showed Brady had broken any rules, or was involved, or had knowledge of, breaking any rules on the night when the Pats played the Colts. Therefore, that judge overturned Brady's suspension. But as I pointed out earlier, that was not what the league's case was arguing. They asserted that the CBA gave Goodell the absolute right to suspend Brady, with or without proof or cause. That position is ultimately what the appellate court agreed with, and they reinstated his suspension.

I tend to agree with you that Brady likely would not have lied on the stand, but IMO there was the possibility and some grey area where Brady had plausible deniability while also not being 100% completely innocent. Bottom line, the whole thing was a huge waste of time, money, energy, and resources. Of all the things the league had to worry about, PSI levels should not have been high on their list of priorities.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

What did the league stand to gain by damaging the image of the face of the league, hurting a personal friendship of Goodell's, and casting doubt on the legitimacy of Super Bowls that they make an ungodly amount of money on?

I never really dove THAT far into the evidence.  But what exactly is the theory here.  The league wanted to ruin their own image because....?

My first thought. For a rare change I read some responses before posting - this is exactly what I was about to ask. It's weird. 

Step 1. Ruin our reputation, while also attempting to kill the cash cow that is the most popular QB in the league. 

Step 2. ?????

Step 3. Profit

I-

 

[JohnnyU]

Slow news day?

 

[wgoldsph]

Drew Brees went on Conan after this happened and Conan handed him two footballs and said something to the effect of "one of these is regulation and one is slightly below..." and before he could even finish talking Brees had already figured out which one was which.

For guys who have been doing nothing but throwing footballs for the past ten-twenty years of their lives I have to believe that they know exactly how a regulation ball is supposed to feel.   Do I think Brady purposefully told someone to lighten the balls illegally?  No.   But I do think he could tell.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

My first thought. For a rare change I read some responses before posting - this is exactly what I was about to ask. It's weird. 

Step 1. Ruin our reputation, while also attempting to kill the cash cow that is the most popular QB in the league. 

Step 2. ?????

Step 3. Profit

I-

I'm not disputing your post, just adding a thought.  You have to be careful when you apply rules of logic to an oligopoly of old rich white men.

Guys like Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder have proven they have an "above the law" mentality and that they are going to do what they want to do.

I believe Goodell makes the salary he makes because his office is the consigliere to 32 crime bosses.

If anyone has trouble accepting the premise, you just need to ask yourselves a few questions like why did the Snyder case emails that came out seem tailor-made to cook Gruden's goose?  does the case against Watson feel contrived at all?  did some of the bosses feel that NE got off lightly from spygate and therefore have motive to manufacture a "violation" in the deflategate case?  I always find it humorous when the asterisk community starts getting all high and mighty when talking about the integrity of the game.  I suggest they go have a conversation with Stephen Ross and Hue Jackson.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Unlike true blind Patriots homers, I readily admit the Pats have done plenty of unscrupulous things and likely crossed the line in lots of ways. The best way I could describe it (and have in the past) is other teams have probably dabbled in things where both feet had crossed the line 2 or 3 times in a couple of areas. But NE has made it a common business practice to try to get as far as they can and still have a plausible explanation that whatever they are doing complies with the spirit of the rules. And instead of 2 or 3 grey areas, they bend the rules across like 100 areas. That's why teams / owners really don't care for them. BB will look for any angle he can get and exploit the rules in an effort to win.

What I don't get (as an overall strategy) is why other teams don't try or do a better job in replicating what NE does / has done. Maybe I am in the minority, but I am all in favor of a coach going all in to try to win. Obviously, I would rule out things like intentionally trying to injure the opposing team's best player or planting incriminating evidence so other teams would get caught and punished. 

I know the "but other teams are doing it" is a tired catch all phrase, which is one that has come up regularly for NE fans. Like I just said, some teams have done things to try to skirt a few rules. NE likely does things to skirt EVERY rule. Yeah, I get it, most teams don't draft the GOAT QB in the 6th round and hold on to him for 20 years, so emulating what the Patriots do is not as easy as it looks. But in terms of scheme, roster construction, salary cap management, game planning, conditioning, etc., I think teams could better model some of what they do after the Pats and be better for it. I'm sure some people will jump on me and say, "Yeah, my team could cheat repeatedly, but we don't play that way." To which I would say, I doubt your team has complied with every rule 100% of the time, and gamesmanship has been around for as long as they've played football. But I certainly could see where fans of other teams would collectively look at the team and say, if nothing else, they are guilty of tyranny, villiany, and crimes against humanity.

respect the honesty here.  The Pats most certainly are the line-stepping-est of teams. The old "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin' " thing - only for them, maybe they walked the thinnest of lines. 

But they were also darlings of the NFL for long enough to become a dynasty. As has been said, they were a cash cow for the NFL, and the league as a whole benefitted from that. 

And though I'm somewhat untrusting of NFL ownership  it's difficult for me to believe a vast conspiracy among 31 owners, against 1 owner, with the Commish as the shadowy figure in the middle of a cabal so slick, that no evidence of the conspiracy has manifested since. 

It's either that, or 1 team deflated balls. 

Occam's Razor would seem to indicate Florio is trying to sell books, and the Pats deflated balls. But maybe some evidence will come out vindicating them, who knows.    

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I believe Goodell makes the salary he makes because his office is the consigliere to 32 crime bosses.

I'm not discounting that as a possibility. I'm just not sure they'd all conspire against one of their own. Bad for business. fogeddaboudit. 

If anyone has trouble accepting the premise, you just need to ask yourselves a few questions like why did the Snyder case emails that came out seem tailor-made to cook Gruden's goose?  does the case against Watson feel contrived at all?  did some of the bosses feel that NE got off lightly from spygate and therefore have motive to manufacture a "violation" in the deflategate case?  I always find it humorous when the asterisk community starts getting all high and mighty when talking about the integrity of the game.  I suggest they go have a conversation with Stephen Ross and Hue Jackson.

The Tuck Rule should probably be included here. There's a lot of smoke. I'm not quite ready to believe 31 owners would conspire to screw one owner. Ok wait, let me rephrase that. I'm not ready to believe they were all willing to go after Kraft, in the midst of the Patriots very profitable rise as a team. If it was against Al / Mark Davis, sure - completely believable. lol    :(  

 

[yabahos]

The takeaway from two years of investigations, reports, interviews, testing, the Ideal gas law, court filings, appeals, and court decisions was that the commissioner essentially had the right to do whatever he wanted (warranted or not). The court reaffirmed he had that power . . . but none of the court stuff proved "Brady did it."

Interesting take by a caller today on talk radio was that Brady basically screwed everyone going forward by having this affirmed in a federal court. 
 

Goddell can basically do whatever he wants.   Maybe the NFLPA wanted Brady to move forward with the case but it certainly didn’t do the union any favors moving forward.  

 

[Anarchy99]

Drew Brees went on Conan after this happened and Conan handed him two footballs and said something to the effect of "one of these is regulation and one is slightly below..." and before he could even finish talking Brees had already figured out which one was which.

For guys who have been doing nothing but throwing footballs for the past ten-twenty years of their lives I have to believe that they know exactly how a regulation ball is supposed to feel.   Do I think Brady purposefully told someone to lighten the balls illegally?  No.   But I do think he could tell.

I remember an interview with Tiger Woods where he was shooting the breeze with someone out on a course. (I believe he was doing a training segment for a Gold Channel series.) They gave him two irons to hit shots with that were effectively the same exact iron made by the same manufacturer but with different grips. While chatting it up, he hit a few shots, all of which landed on the green, many fairly close to the pin. They asked him if he would consider switching to that type of iron. He said he might use the first one but no way on the other, not because he liked the grip better, but the second one weighted between an ounce to two ounces more than the other one. Afterwards, they weighed both irons and one was almost exactly two ounces more. Players in all sports get very particular and fastidious over their equipment.

As for Brees and the Conan experiment, to me, we need to know more before having any inclination if there is much value to glean here. If they gave Brees one football that was 13.5 PSI (the upper range of the PSI limit) and one that was 12.4 PSI (which would be 0.1 just under the limit), it would be fairly obvious to most people which one was which if they held one in each hand. If they gave Brees one football at 12.5 PSI and another at 12.4 PSI, I suggest it would be a lot harder to tell which one was which. The bigger question is, even if a ball felt slightly lighter than another, does that make any difference and does it provide any sort of competitive advantage? (Again, the manufacturer was the one that suggested the PSI range, not the league, and the NFL just went with what the manufacturer suggested.)

When this story was first a thing, Aaron Rodgers admitted that he has his equipment people intentionally way over inflate footballs because that was his preference and they rarely checked them (pre-Deflategate). Sometimes the refs checked the PSI, but many times they didn't. If they did, they would just release air until it got in range. Rodgers went on record saying each team should be able to inflate the ball as much or as little as they wanted. He even joked that if a team wanted to play with a football that had no air in it and threw it like a frisbee, he was down with it. Other QBs chimed in on how they liked their footballs and what they did to the balls. IIRC, Eli Manning had his equipment guy take new footballs and threw them in a dryer to scuff them up and soften them up. To the letter of the law, teams are not supposed to do that either. They are supposed to take the footballs out of the box, inflate them to the appropriate PSI level, and then give them to the refs to lock up until the game starts. But there was no outrage that either of these two guys were serial cheaters and one step beneath Atilla the Hun.

 

[yabahos]

The Pats most certainly are the line-stepping-est of teams.

habitual

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I remember an interview with Tiger Woods where he was shooting the breeze with someone out on a course. (I believe he was doing a training segment for a Gold Channel series.) They gave him two irons to hit shots with that were effectively the same exact iron made by the same manufacturer but with different grips. While chatting it up, he hit a few shots, all of which landed on the green, many fairly close to the pin. They asked him if he would consider switching to that type of iron. He said he might use the first one but no way on the other, not because he liked the grip better, but the second one weighted between an ounce to two ounces more than the other one. Afterwards, they weighed both irons and one was almost exactly two ounces more. Players in all sports get very particular and fastidious over their equipment.

Reminds me of a story I once heard about Wade Boggs (tried to Google it, but couldn't find any references). He got thrown out on a bang-bang play at first base. His teammates were ribbing him about how he had lost a step. He said, "I didn't lose a step. That base was too far." They all laughed and assumed he was making excuses. The next day they went and measured the distance, and it was a few inches more than the regulation 90 feet. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The bigger question is, even if a ball felt slightly lighter than another, does that make any difference and does it provide any sort of competitive advantage? (Again, the manufacturer was the one that suggested the PSI range, not the league, and the NFL just went with what the manufacturer suggested.)

It's not about the weight of the ball, it's about the grip. 

Especially on a cold or rainy day, like they have in NEP. A lot. 

Heck, my friends & I would slightly deflate a regulation football to throw around if the weather wasn't great. There is a definite advantage to being able to grip the ball slightly better. 

 

[Anarchy99]

I'm not discounting that as a possibility. I'm just not sure they'd all conspire against one of their own. Bad for business. fogeddaboudit. 

The Tuck Rule should probably be included here. There's a lot of smoke. I'm not quite ready to believe 31 owners would conspire to screw one owner. Ok wait, let me rephrase that. I'm not ready to believe they were all willing to go after Kraft, in the midst of the Patriots very profitable rise as a team. If it was against Al / Mark Davis, sure - completely believable. lol    :(  

Going strictly from memory, there were a handful of teams / owners that with fire and brimstone wanted the Patriots burned at the stake. They didn't necessarily have a good reason, but there were some teams that felt the Pats had gotten away with murder over Spygate. No, there were not 31 franchises that felt this way, so it wasn't a Murder on the Orient Express scenario where they all did it, but there were enough voices that pounded the table with veracity and fortitude that other owners kept quiet. It was not a huge majority of owners that went along with it, it was a number of vocal and pushy owners that wanted the Pats and BB to fry. Essentially, there may have been a silent majority that disagreed, but they didn't speak up. At least that's what I remember in articles back in the day.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I would suggest there was a #4 option. Maybe the equipment guys knew what inflation level Brady liked the footballs, and they had been altering the footballs ever so slightly for years by taking a little bit of air out. Say he mentioned that to them in training camp one day . . . that he liked the footballs inflated on the lowest side of the PSI range. (I believe essentially that is what happened . . . for home games, NE inflated the footballs to the lowest legal PSI as possible and occasionally they might have missed the mark by a smidge).

Yes, that's possible (I was only talking about Brady's involvement). In any event, your scenario is just speculation. There's no actual evidence that the ball boys did this.

I don't know what happened, and I don't think it particularly matters. But I still think the likeliest scenario is that there was nothing unusual about the balls' PSI.

 

[Anarchy99]

Yes, that's possible (I was only talking about Brady's involvement). In any event, your scenario is just speculation. There's no actual evidence that the ball boys did this.

I don't know what happened, and I don't think it particularly matters. But I still think the likeliest scenario is that there was nothing unusual about the balls' PSI.

I agree with all of this, I was just playing devil's advocate to show another option (which essentially was the league's explanation of what happened). Some people like to think I am a blind, tunnel vision Patriots homer, so I was trying to consider other alternatives other than "NE didn't do anything."

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I'm not disputing your post, just adding a thought.  You have to be careful when you apply rules of logic to an oligopoly of old rich white men.

Guys like Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder have proven they have an "above the law" mentality and that they are going to do what they want to do.

I believe Goodell makes the salary he makes because his office is the consigliere to 32 crime bosses.

If anyone has trouble accepting the premise, you just need to ask yourselves a few questions like why did the Snyder case emails that came out seem tailor-made to cook Gruden's goose?  does the case against Watson feel contrived at all?  did some of the bosses feel that NE got off lightly from spygate and therefore have motive to manufacture a "violation" in the deflategate case?  I always find it humorous when the asterisk community starts getting all high and mighty when talking about the integrity of the game.  I suggest they go have a conversation with Stephen Ross and Hue Jackson.

I've been pretty clear about my cynicism regarding the league office, but you officially lost me with the bolded. Not only does it not feel contrived, but I'm pretty sure the only plausible explanation for the Watson accusations is that they are true. If someone had set out to frame Watson, there's no way they would have come up with that story.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I agree with all of this, I was just playing devil's advocate to show another option (which essentially was the league's explanation of what happened). Some people like to think I am a blind, tunnel vision Patriots homer, so I was trying to consider other alternatives other than "NE didn't do anything."

I thought it was something like that at the time. It's the most plausible.

TB12: "hey, I like my balls a little soft" 

Equipment guy:

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I agree with all of this, I was just playing devil's advocate to show another option (which essentially was the league's explanation of what happened). Some people like to think I am a blind, tunnel vision Patriots homer, so I was trying to consider other alternatives other than "NE didn't do anything."

I remember having a conversation at the time with a Pats homer who put forward the same theory. I chalked it up to him trying to put the best spin possible on what he assumed was a bad fact pattern. But like I said, I don't think the facts were actually against Brady. I can't remember the details now, but there was something about how the refs conducted the measurement of the balls' PSI that made me think that whatever data they were using to draw their conclusions was total garbage.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Sorry my friend, he was not found guilty. The NFL's general counsel, under oath on the witness stand, admitted in court they had nothing on Brady and there was no direct evidence linking Brady to any wrongdoing in the game against the Colts. But the court case was not about Brady's guilt or innocence. It was about whether the CBA granted the commissioner unconditional right to discipline Brady and granted Goodell the power to penalize players at his discretion, whether justified or not. That's what the court ruling was about. Based on labor and contract law, the appellate court ruled that the CBA granted Goodell the all-knowing power to serve as judge, jury, and executioner as he saw fit. But that's different than being "found guilty." Brady was not on trial. He was never charged with a crime, so obviously he was not sentenced. The takeaway from two years of investigations, reports, interviews, testing, the Ideal gas law, court filings, appeals, and court decisions was that the commissioner essentially had the right to do whatever he wanted (warranted or not). The court reaffirmed he had that power . . . but none of the court stuff proved "Brady did it."

That being said, I will readily admit that the Patriots have done any number of shady things, and Brady most likely was far from squeaky clean and was deserving of a suspension for something. Just not what he went down for. And I still believe BB sits in his office and with a straight face will say, "All it cost us was a first-round pick (in the case of Spygate) and a million bucks and we won how many championships?" I also think BB when he catches wind of whatever the league might be investigating him on at any point in time actually thinks they have no idea about the 100 other things that he's doing that they have no clue about.

How people feel about that will vary by ZIP code. To some he's a hero, to others he's one step worse than the devil.

Sing it loud and proud on the top o the mountain tops but Brady was suspended for cheating or deflating footballs. It's easy now years later to say he wasn't guilty but he was sentenced and served his 4 game suspension, an admission of guilt which is why he wanted Kraft to keep fighting it. Have you read Florio's book yet, your taking a mighty stance based on Florio's pressers on what might be in that book. Book's are written to sell copies. Florio is free online and TV daily, why would anyone pay to see what he writes in that little book? I could write a book about anyone long after the fact and say there is compelling evidence to overturn or they were never guilty of the crime. 

Brady was suspended 4 games for cheating and deflating footballs, altering the potential outcomes of games.

Ben Roethlisberger was suspended 6 games for sexually assaulting a woman in a Georgia bathroom. 

Did the punishments fit the crimes? 

 

[Anarchy99]

It's not about the weight of the ball, it's about the grip. 

Especially on a cold or rainy day, like they have in NEP. A lot. 

Heck, my friends & I would slightly deflate a regulation football to throw around if the weather wasn't great. There is a definite advantage to being able to grip the ball slightly better. 

One of the things that apparently was in the data the league was said to have deleted was just how much the PSI of a football could drop on one of those NE days. If the refs bother to check the PSI levels before a game (they occasionally spot-checked footballs if they seemed way over or under), they do it several hours before kickoff . . . in a warm room with no environmental elements. The bags of footballs would typically get carried out an hour or more before game time. Depending on the valve / seal, the balls would adjust to the weather conditions, atmospheric pressure, temperature, humidity, etc. differently. Thus, where the Ideal Gas Law comes into play. According to Florio, the league data showed that balls could lose a ton of pressure. This data matched the data that was collected at halftime during the Colts and Pats game. That's science at work . . . and the same effect would impact the footballs for both teams. On that night, the Colts chose to inflate their footballs to the maximum level. The Patriots chose to inflate their footballs to the minimum level. No harm, no foul. Both teams adhered to the rules. Game starts, weather happens. NE's football registered way lower at half time than the Colts did. Science happens. There are no provisions in the league operations manual as to what to do when footballs drop below the legal range as the game progresses (ie, if they should be reinflated multiple times per game and if they needed to check them possession by possession). 

One of the teams that was peeved at NE was BAL. The week before was the game where NE started swapping lineman in and out of the game and had them line up in places they wouldn't normally. John Harbaugh was livid that this was allowed (and then got the league to change the rule as soon as the season ended). That was the game where the Ravens blew a 14-point lead in the second half. The Pats also pulled out an Edelman to Amendola play for a 50-yard TD. The game started with 20-degree temps and 8- degree windchill. It only got colder and colder as the night went on. NE ended up winning, and Harbaugh said he got ahold of the ball used for the last extra point when they threw it to the wrong sideline. He said it was soft as a sponge and was way under inflated. He then alerted the league and the Colts. The footballs were exposed to the elements for hours by that point. But the league had no sense of agitation over how footballs were inflated for 95 years until then.

 

[Anarchy99]

Sing it loud and proud on the top o the mountain tops but Brady was suspended for cheating or deflating footballs. It's easy now years later to say he wasn't guilty but he was sentenced and served his 4 game suspension, an admission of guilt which is why he wanted Kraft to keep fighting it. Have you read Florio's book yet, your taking a mighty stance based on Florio's pressers on what might be in that book. Book's are written to sell copies. Florio is free online and TV daily, why would anyone pay to see what he writes in that little book? I could write a book about anyone long after the fact and say there is compelling evidence to overturn or they were never guilty of the crime. 

Brady was suspended 4 games for cheating and deflating footballs, altering the potential outcomes of games.

Ben Roethlisberger was suspended 6 games for sexually assaulting a woman in a Georgia bathroom. 

Did the punishments fit the crimes? 

Can't read a book that isn't out yet. And again, the reason the court case didn't proceed further had nothing to do with Brady's guilt or innocence. It had to do with collectively bargained labor laws. I am sure they consulted with the best attorneys that money could buy and guys that made a living making appeals to the Supreme Court, and no one suggested they had any hope of winning. There was no trial, no charges levied, and no crime committed. If you want to take that as an admission of guilt and a sentence for Brady, that's your prerogative. Brady wanted Kraft to keep fighting it because he didn't want anything but a spotless record . . . but they couldn't win the case.

As for Florio, he is an established and long-time member of the sports media. Sure, you could write a book suggesting the Patriots put tranquilizers in the water in the visiting clubhouse that caused their opponents to play like zombies on the field of play. But you aren't Florio, and without any credibility in the industry, any research, or any evidence, I'm guessing most people wouldn't believe you and you probably wouldn't sell many books.

 

[ratbast]

I’ve always felt that the initial accusations steamrolled uncontrollably to the point where the NFL had to go hard. They absolutely had to win this to save face. The initial infraction was accused without scientific understanding and rather than look like idiots they had to over do it. 

I do feel all Pats infractions did show imperfections in New Englands management model. Risk management to be precise. And when I heard the production company filmed the Bengals sideline, and Kraft’s massage escapades, this Pats fan was furious. Risk management is an important business aspect. 

 

[Anarchy99]

I’ve always felt that the initial accusations steamrolled uncontrollably to the point where the NFL had to go hard. They absolutely had to win this to save face. The initial infraction was accused without scientific understanding and rather than look like idiots they had to over do it. 

I do feel all Pats infractions did show imperfections in New Englands management model. Risk management to be precise. And when I heard the production company filmed the Bengals sideline, and Kraft’s massage escapades, this Pats fan was furious. Risk management is an important business aspect. 

Riddle me this. If their risk management model also was instrumental in getting them all their titles, would that be considered an asset or liability? Would you say that model provided them more opportunities or fewer opportunities? I guess what I am saying is, their risk model put them in a lucrative position, and the same model that got them to the top of the mountain also contributed to them taking multiple PR dings. Bottom line, if they did use that risk model, they may never have achieved the success they had.

 

[ratbast]

Riddle me this. If their risk management model also was instrumental in getting them all their titles, would that be considered an asset or liability? Would you say that model provided them more opportunities or fewer opportunities? I guess what I am saying is, their risk model put them in a lucrative position, and the same model that got them to the top of the mountain also contributed to them taking multiple PR dings. Bottom line, if they did use that risk model, they may never have achieved the success they had.

Agreed. The Bengals filming illustrates what irks me the most. How could that happen? It shouldn’t have. 

 

[Anarchy99]

Agreed. The Bengals filming illustrates what irks me the most. How could that happen? It shouldn’t have. 

I have a son that is both genius and idiot at the same time. He works for a gigantic global company, and they are about to transfer him to Germany at the whopping age of 24 because even at his young age he has done more than people that have worked there for decades. I've written about him in several threads, most notably the kids sports accomplishments thread in the FFA. He was one of the best wrestlers to ever come out of these parts (and was just inducted onto his HS sports HOF).

As an example, he didn't consider winning a match by scoring more points a legitimate win. To him, he only considered pins as a victory. There were times in matches when he was so far ahead, the only way he could lose was if he got pinned. All he had to do was dance around for the last 30 seconds and he would have won going away. Nope, that was never gonna happen. He insisted on pinning every opponent, and he would try and try until the final buzzer sounded. His only losses as a senior were when he tried to pin someone but couldn't, he got flipped with under 5 seconds left, and he lost matches that were already won. His general outlook was no guts, no glory. One of his friends described him as the dumbest smart person he knows.

The same apt description holds true for BB. For all his greatest, he is probably more of a threat to himself and the team than 31 other franchises are. He truly is the definition of his own worst enemy. It seems like he has to be the smartest person in the room, but he often outsmarts himself. In many ways, he outkicks his coverage.

I don't know if he is so paranoid that he needs to have 1,000 tricks up his sleeve to double and triple down to try to win or what his issues are. In no way, shape, or form did they need any video surveillance or extra advantage to beat the Bengals. Absolutely none. They could have skipped practice all week, went to the beach and worked on getting tans, and still gone into Cincy and throttled the Bengals. The team could have gone on an all-night, showed up on game day hungover, and still won. No offense intended for Bengals fans . . . you guys get the last laugh on this one, as your team is still playing while the Patriots are trying to figure how to get back to being true contenders again.