Phenoms going under (1 Viewer)

[Raiderfan32904]

A more believable story would have been paying the budget of $200k, making another installment of let's say $100k to complete the web project. If the project is still not completed after that, you stop payments and file legal action against the web designer company.

That's generally now how software development works. There is very rarely a true definition of "done" or "complete."

This is usually how it goes...

Customer: I want an app that does X, Y, Z.

Developer: Ok, that will cost about $N.

Customer: Sounds great, let's go.

Developer: Ok, here it is.

Customer: Hmm, well now that I see it, I'd like to make some changes. Let's change X, Y, Z.

Developer: Ok, that'll be another $N.

Customer: Ok

Developer: Done

Customer: Looks good, but I thought of another feature I want.

Developer: Ok, that'll be another $N.

Customer: Ok

Developer: Done

Customer: Hmm, well now that I see it, I'd like to make some changes. Let's change X, Y, Z.

... repeat forever.

These iterations can be really small, or really large, but that's often the general the pattern.

That is ABSOLUTELY how it goes. As the owner of a dev shop, I have done a LOT of jobs that had 3x cost over-runs, and none of them had anything to do with me suckering anyone in.

They call it requirements creep or scope creep in the business, and it happens more often than not - especially for small/new businesses who have never gone through a dev process before. I can easily believe the story he laid out there, but as others have mentioned it doesn't at all mean what he did wasn't illegal or immoral.

But it's creep...and there's deliverables and landmarks/milestones and actual decisions about moving forward and actually advancing more cash. The original letter made it seem like he got quoted $200K, guy came back and said it would cost $600K, and he was forced to pay him.

It wasn't a drastic, 300% change order I can assure you. Creep takes time, and usually is accompanied by a lot of milestones missed and nobody says anything thinking things are just hunky dory.

 

[RUSF18]

Agreed. It's why I don't believe his story.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Did anyone else just start getting spam at the email address they used on their Phenoms account?

Not spam perse, but I did not like that my email got added to a long Phenoms email list without my consent. Somebody who is in one of my leagues copy/pasted our league info and passed it on to somebody who has started some sort of legal campaign. I didn't respond to it, but it's a little unnerving to see how easily your personal info can be harvested from what I thought was a relatively secure account profile.

I went to my phenomsff account info page and it has my name and home address in there. Just cleared it all out. Suggest folks do the same.

The only way that info is there is if you put it in their at some point. Mike has no way to get it.

When you sign up for an account, all that info is on the Phenoms website just before you get directed to PayPal. He most certainly does have access to our info. All that private info gets fed from his Phenoms website to the MFL host under the Phenoms name. None of us ever had to upload our private info to see league owner info. All you have to do is go to reports/franchise/franchise information. Anyone who's logged in can scroll down and pick off all the data you sent Mike in your original account setup. You can always change that info or delete it if you want but the source of it all comes directly from Mike.

 

[BigJohn]

I wonder if Mike and Steve from Antsports are buddies.

Holy crap, I forgot about that debacle. Antsports is where I started my fantasy career. Good God, time flies.

 

[Mikeisonabeachearning20%]

Did anyone else just start getting spam at the email address they used on their Phenoms account?

Not spam perse, but I did not like that my email got added to a long Phenoms email list without my consent. Somebody who is in one of my leagues copy/pasted our league info and passed it on to somebody who has started some sort of legal campaign. I didn't respond to it, but it's a little unnerving to see how easily your personal info can be harvested from what I thought was a relatively secure account profile.

I went to my phenomsff account info page and it has my name and home address in there. Just cleared it all out. Suggest folks do the same.

The only way that info is there is if you put it in their at some point. Mike has no way to get it.

When you sign up for an account, all that info is on the Phenoms website just before you get directed to PayPal. He most certainly does have access to our info. All that private info gets fed from his Phenoms website to the MFL host under the Phenoms name. None of us ever had to upload our private info to see league owner info. All you have to do is go to reports/franchise/franchise information. Anyone who's logged in can scroll down and pick off all the data you sent Mike in your original account setup. You can always change that info or delete it if you want but the source of it all comes directly from Mike.

Wrong

The only thing required at signup is your email, your name, and a team name.

Obviously your email should be a separate one for FF only. You real name doesn't need to be your real name. And if you filled out your real address to an online fantasy football site, then I have some beachfront property to sell you cheap in Kansas.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Did anyone else just start getting spam at the email address they used on their Phenoms account?

Not spam perse, but I did not like that my email got added to a long Phenoms email list without my consent. Somebody who is in one of my leagues copy/pasted our league info and passed it on to somebody who has started some sort of legal campaign. I didn't respond to it, but it's a little unnerving to see how easily your personal info can be harvested from what I thought was a relatively secure account profile.

I went to my phenomsff account info page and it has my name and home address in there. Just cleared it all out. Suggest folks do the same.

The only way that info is there is if you put it in their at some point. Mike has no way to get it.

When you sign up for an account, all that info is on the Phenoms website just before you get directed to PayPal. He most certainly does have access to our info. All that private info gets fed from his Phenoms website to the MFL host under the Phenoms name. None of us ever had to upload our private info to see league owner info. All you have to do is go to reports/franchise/franchise information. Anyone who's logged in can scroll down and pick off all the data you sent Mike in your original account setup. You can always change that info or delete it if you want but the source of it all comes directly from Mike.

Wrong

The only thing required at signup is your email, your name, and a team name.

Obviously your email should be a separate one for FF only. You real name doesn't need to be your real name. And if you filled out your real address to an online fantasy football site, then I have some beachfront property to sell you cheap in Kansas.

I didn't say I entered anything more than my email, name and team name. Some have even gone the length of changing their name to "Bubba" or some other nickname to be more protective of their account. But I see a lot of personal info that people have volunteered. Scroll through your account. You may be surprised.

 

[TheWalk84]

So I woke up this morning, and BOA has temporarily refunded all the 2014 dues back into my account...

I know this does't really mean anything, but at least it is a small step in the right direction...

 

[lynx4ben]

I don't believe the project over run story for a second. You guys have all read Mike's letters posted on phenomsff.com. Mike is an intelligent man with a good education and family background. Anyone with a brain would not shell out more than 3X's the initial project cost, and still doesn't have a completed project to show for it. Furthermore, Mike used customer entry fees (which is a liability to the company) to fund operational expenses, which is a big no no. A more believable story would have been paying the budget of $200k, making another installment of let's say $100k to complete the web project. If the project is still not completed after that, you stop payments and file legal action against the web designer company. As the saying goes, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice and shame on me.
People should not be fighting who gets what. The trustee of the BK will be the judge of that. We need to do our civilian duties of filing our complaints to the appropriate authorities so that this situation does not happen again. If we do our part, an investigation will be opened whether Mike broke any laws of commingling funds, embezzlement and fraud. Then we let the legal system play out. But we need to do our part.

As a fellow victim posted earlier:

https://complaint.ic3.gov/ (Internet Crime Complaint Center)

http://attorneygener.../complaint-form (Utah Attorney General)

local police where Mike lives in Murray, Utah (801-264-2673.

PHENOM ENTERPRISES, LLC

Entity Number: 7970115-0160
Company Type: LLC - Domestic
Address: 457 E 5600 S UNIT B Murray, UT 84107
State of Origin:
Registered Agent: MICHAEL D ZANGRILLI
Registered Agent Address:
457 E 5600 S UNIT B
Murray, UT 84107

Best post in this Tread

 

[ebsteelers]

Did anyone else just start getting spam at the email address they used on their Phenoms account?

Not spam perse, but I did not like that my email got added to a long Phenoms email list without my consent. Somebody who is in one of my leagues copy/pasted our league info and passed it on to somebody who has started some sort of legal campaign. I didn't respond to it, but it's a little unnerving to see how easily your personal info can be harvested from what I thought was a relatively secure account profile.

I went to my phenomsff account info page and it has my name and home address in there. Just cleared it all out. Suggest folks do the same.

The only way that info is there is if you put it in their at some point. Mike has no way to get it.

When you sign up for an account, all that info is on the Phenoms website just before you get directed to PayPal. He most certainly does have access to our info. All that private info gets fed from his Phenoms website to the MFL host under the Phenoms name. None of us ever had to upload our private info to see league owner info. All you have to do is go to reports/franchise/franchise information. Anyone who's logged in can scroll down and pick off all the data you sent Mike in your original account setup. You can always change that info or delete it if you want but the source of it all comes directly from Mike.

Wrong

The only thing required at signup is your email, your name, and a team name.

Obviously your email should be a separate one for FF only. You real name doesn't need to be your real name. And if you filled out your real address to an online fantasy football site, then I have some beachfront property to sell you cheap in Kansas.

I didn't say I entered anything more than my email, name and team name. Some have even gone the length of changing their name to "Bubba" or some other nickname to be more protective of their account. But I see a lot of personal info that people have volunteered. Scroll through your account. You may be surprised.

wouldnt you need to put your address to get a check in the mail if you won?

 

[SCYCPA]

Did anyone else just start getting spam at the email address they used on their Phenoms account?

Not spam perse, but I did not like that my email got added to a long Phenoms email list without my consent. Somebody who is in one of my leagues copy/pasted our league info and passed it on to somebody who has started some sort of legal campaign. I didn't respond to it, but it's a little unnerving to see how easily your personal info can be harvested from what I thought was a relatively secure account profile.

I went to my phenomsff account info page and it has my name and home address in there. Just cleared it all out. Suggest folks do the same.

The only way that info is there is if you put it in their at some point. Mike has no way to get it.

When you sign up for an account, all that info is on the Phenoms website just before you get directed to PayPal. He most certainly does have access to our info. All that private info gets fed from his Phenoms website to the MFL host under the Phenoms name. None of us ever had to upload our private info to see league owner info. All you have to do is go to reports/franchise/franchise information. Anyone who's logged in can scroll down and pick off all the data you sent Mike in your original account setup. You can always change that info or delete it if you want but the source of it all comes directly from Mike.

Wrong

The only thing required at signup is your email, your name, and a team name.

Obviously your email should be a separate one for FF only. You real name doesn't need to be your real name. And if you filled out your real address to an online fantasy football site, then I have some beachfront property to sell you cheap in Kansas.

I didn't say I entered anything more than my email, name and team name. Some have even gone the length of changing their name to "Bubba" or some other nickname to be more protective of their account. But I see a lot of personal info that people have volunteered. Scroll through your account. You may be surprised.

wouldnt you need to put your address to get a check in the mail if you won?

Unless I'm mistaken, Mike didn't take or send out checks, everything was done through Paypal or Dwolla.

 

[Mikeisonabeachearning20%]

Did anyone else just start getting spam at the email address they used on their Phenoms account?

Not spam perse, but I did not like that my email got added to a long Phenoms email list without my consent. Somebody who is in one of my leagues copy/pasted our league info and passed it on to somebody who has started some sort of legal campaign. I didn't respond to it, but it's a little unnerving to see how easily your personal info can be harvested from what I thought was a relatively secure account profile.

I went to my phenomsff account info page and it has my name and home address in there. Just cleared it all out. Suggest folks do the same.

The only way that info is there is if you put it in their at some point. Mike has no way to get it.

When you sign up for an account, all that info is on the Phenoms website just before you get directed to PayPal. He most certainly does have access to our info. All that private info gets fed from his Phenoms website to the MFL host under the Phenoms name. None of us ever had to upload our private info to see league owner info. All you have to do is go to reports/franchise/franchise information. Anyone who's logged in can scroll down and pick off all the data you sent Mike in your original account setup. You can always change that info or delete it if you want but the source of it all comes directly from Mike.

Wrong

The only thing required at signup is your email, your name, and a team name.

Obviously your email should be a separate one for FF only. You real name doesn't need to be your real name. And if you filled out your real address to an online fantasy football site, then I have some beachfront property to sell you cheap in Kansas.

I didn't say I entered anything more than my email, name and team name. Some have even gone the length of changing their name to "Bubba" or some other nickname to be more protective of their account. But I see a lot of personal info that people have volunteered. Scroll through your account. You may be surprised.

wouldnt you need to put your address to get a check in the mail if you won?

Why would you have them send you a check?

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Mike used to send out championship medals, so in that case he has my address from a few years back, I doubt he kept that info. That database would be obsolete for the most part by now.

 

[Keith Lewis]

Did anyone else just start getting spam at the email address they used on their Phenoms account?

Not spam perse, but I did not like that my email got added to a long Phenoms email list without my consent. Somebody who is in one of my leagues copy/pasted our league info and passed it on to somebody who has started some sort of legal campaign. I didn't respond to it, but it's a little unnerving to see how easily your personal info can be harvested from what I thought was a relatively secure account profile.

I went to my phenomsff account info page and it has my name and home address in there. Just cleared it all out. Suggest folks do the same.

The only way that info is there is if you put it in their at some point. Mike has no way to get it.

When you sign up for an account, all that info is on the Phenoms website just before you get directed to PayPal. He most certainly does have access to our info. All that private info gets fed from his Phenoms website to the MFL host under the Phenoms name. None of us ever had to upload our private info to see league owner info. All you have to do is go to reports/franchise/franchise information. Anyone who's logged in can scroll down and pick off all the data you sent Mike in your original account setup. You can always change that info or delete it if you want but the source of it all comes directly from Mike.

WrongThe only thing required at signup is your email, your name, and a team name.

Obviously your email should be a separate one for FF only. You real name doesn't need to be your real name. And if you filled out your real address to an online fantasy football site, then I have some beachfront property to sell you cheap in Kansas.

I didn't say I entered anything more than my email, name and team name. Some have even gone the length of changing their name to "Bubba" or some other nickname to be more protective of their account. But I see a lot of personal info that people have volunteered. Scroll through your account. You may be surprised.

wouldnt you need to put your address to get a check in the mail if you won?

Unless I'm mistaken, Mike didn't take or send out checks, everything was done through Paypal or Dwolla.

mike sent me my winnings by check every year. You have a choice of paypal or personal check.

 

[ozark]

Been playing with Mike for serval years - always got a check mailed to my home address . did not use paypal at that time. Did pay serveral leagues with paypal this year, have filed wtih them but it is passed the 90 day notice. Have not heard from paypal at this time.. Used credit card for the most of the teams I had.

Merry Christmas

 

[ebsteelers]

Did anyone else just start getting spam at the email address they used on their Phenoms account?

Not spam perse, but I did not like that my email got added to a long Phenoms email list without my consent. Somebody who is in one of my leagues copy/pasted our league info and passed it on to somebody who has started some sort of legal campaign. I didn't respond to it, but it's a little unnerving to see how easily your personal info can be harvested from what I thought was a relatively secure account profile.

I went to my phenomsff account info page and it has my name and home address in there. Just cleared it all out. Suggest folks do the same.

The only way that info is there is if you put it in their at some point. Mike has no way to get it.

When you sign up for an account, all that info is on the Phenoms website just before you get directed to PayPal. He most certainly does have access to our info. All that private info gets fed from his Phenoms website to the MFL host under the Phenoms name. None of us ever had to upload our private info to see league owner info. All you have to do is go to reports/franchise/franchise information. Anyone who's logged in can scroll down and pick off all the data you sent Mike in your original account setup. You can always change that info or delete it if you want but the source of it all comes directly from Mike.

Wrong

The only thing required at signup is your email, your name, and a team name.

Obviously your email should be a separate one for FF only. You real name doesn't need to be your real name. And if you filled out your real address to an online fantasy football site, then I have some beachfront property to sell you cheap in Kansas.

I didn't say I entered anything more than my email, name and team name. Some have even gone the length of changing their name to "Bubba" or some other nickname to be more protective of their account. But I see a lot of personal info that people have volunteered. Scroll through your account. You may be surprised.

wouldnt you need to put your address to get a check in the mail if you won?

Why would you have them send you a check?

some sites do check i know masters does.

it doesnt really matter as long as your getting your money.

 

[SacramentoBob]

The more I look into this the more I am falling in on the side of scam folks. If you want to scam people and you are planning it there are a few things you need to do.

1. Isolate yourself from being tracked, via pictures, addresses, friends, colleges, and family. Not one person here seems to have ever seen "Mike" personally, spoke to him or knows anything personal about him. There is NO information on the web about him, nor pictures with is very odd since a person that popular would have some photo's at events, advertising something.

There's been quite a bit of info posted earlier in thread regarding pretty much everything in your post.

I'd go back through this thread.

But he's been "looking into this".

 

[fatness]

Anyone who is attempting a CC chargeback, how are you getting around the 90 day window?

My CC (mastercard) didn't blink about a 90 day window. FYI to anyone attempting a CC chargeback, don't attempt to try to explain what happened or any fantasy football league mumbo jumbo to them. They don't speak this language. All they want to know is that you paid for a product you didn't receive. They hit the appropriate button and tell you the case will be resolved one way or the other within 60 days.

I started the chargeback process, however my situation was a little more complicated. They did ask questions of the nature of the services provided and the who, what, when and how of it all.

To be honest, It felt a bit like an interrogation to get me to admit it was fantasy football related. I basically told them that this company was to provide "a sports entertainment service in which they coordinate, supervise and manage the funds of our group". He asked what was the reasoning for the transactions to be disputed now after the 118 day period had elapsed and I said because the service was an ongoing process that needed to be completed in it's entirety for the transactions to be valid in the first place.

There was a lot more to the conversation but I'll spare you the details. I feel like I need a shower though. They said to gather up emails and as much evidence as I could and they would send the paperwork to initiate the investigation.

This isn't going to end well but it doesn't require much effort on my end so I feel it's worth trying.

Of course you need a shower. You couldn't even admit the reason you were begging for your money back. If you are that ashamed to say it was FF, then you probably shouldn't be calling.

I'm hardly ashamed. I simply was making sure I wasn't giving the person on the other end any additional reason to deny me based on ignorance of FF or their willingness to make the leap to gambling. Mission accomplished. Troll elsewhere.

There is no trolling going on.

And you can stop lying. The only reason you or anyone else doesn't tell the person on the phone it's Fantasy Football is simple. Instant denial and hangup.

Easier to make up a story to try and scam your money back. We all get it.

Joined 16-December 14

 

[SacramentoBob]

I hope you guys have all changed your Paypal passwords by now.

 

[SmallDawgsBITE]

Just found this out today , as i would never use any service to host my leagues when i can do them myself.

2 years ago Michael contacted me and my small hobby website to build a skin for myfantasyleague.com for his Pheonoms hosting , so all his sites would match.

I whipped up something very quickly for $150 , i didn't have the time to do any of his website work , but a fair value on the website was about $2500 .

Now i see they were going to build thier own hosting service, i'd imagine to compete with MyFantasyLeague.com and RTSports.com

Well, the reason i don't buy this story is , i myself along with a few developers have been researching doing the same , we figured about 60K in cost for development , about 10K a year in server costs and 3-4k monthly in aquiring the data realtime.

600K really ??? If that amount is correct, which i don't see it even being close to 1/4th of reality , then they got hosed or are lying.

 

[Futz]

Anyone who is attempting a CC chargeback, how are you getting around the 90 day window?

My CC (mastercard) didn't blink about a 90 day window. FYI to anyone attempting a CC chargeback, don't attempt to try to explain what happened or any fantasy football league mumbo jumbo to them. They don't speak this language. All they want to know is that you paid for a product you didn't receive. They hit the appropriate button and tell you the case will be resolved one way or the other within 60 days.

I started the chargeback process, however my situation was a little more complicated. They did ask questions of the nature of the services provided and the who, what, when and how of it all.To be honest, It felt a bit like an interrogation to get me to admit it was fantasy football related. I basically told them that this company was to provide "a sports entertainment service in which they coordinate, supervise and manage the funds of our group". He asked what was the reasoning for the transactions to be disputed now after the 118 day period had elapsed and I said because the service was an ongoing process that needed to be completed in it's entirety for the transactions to be valid in the first place.

There was a lot more to the conversation but I'll spare you the details. I feel like I need a shower though. They said to gather up emails and as much evidence as I could and they would send the paperwork to initiate the investigation.

This isn't going to end well but it doesn't require much effort on my end so I feel it's worth trying.

Of course you need a shower. You couldn't even admit the reason you were begging for your money back. If you are that ashamed to say it was FF, then you probably shouldn't be calling.

I'm hardly ashamed. I simply was making sure I wasn't giving the person on the other end any additional reason to deny me based on ignorance of FF or their willingness to make the leap to gambling. Mission accomplished. Troll elsewhere.

There is no trolling going on.And you can stop lying. The only reason you or anyone else doesn't tell the person on the phone it's Fantasy Football is simple. Instant denial and hangup.

Easier to make up a story to try and scam your money back. We all get it.

Joined 16-December 14

Exactly and the name is hardly suggestive of that. :eyeroll:

 

[sPiKeRs]

A more believable story would have been paying the budget of $200k, making another installment of let's say $100k to complete the web project. If the project is still not completed after that, you stop payments and file legal action against the web designer company.

That's generally now how software development works. There is very rarely a true definition of "done" or "complete."

This is usually how it goes...

Customer: I want an app that does X, Y, Z.

Developer: Ok, that will cost about $N.

Customer: Sounds great, let's go.

Developer: Ok, here it is.

Customer: Hmm, well now that I see it, I'd like to make some changes. Let's change X, Y, Z.

Developer: Ok, that'll be another $N.

Customer: Ok

Developer: Done

Customer: Looks good, but I thought of another feature I want.

Developer: Ok, that'll be another $N.

Customer: Ok

Developer: Done

Customer: Hmm, well now that I see it, I'd like to make some changes. Let's change X, Y, Z.

... repeat forever.

These iterations can be really small, or really large, but that's often the general the pattern.

I've been in projects that were a few hundred thousand dollars. The point is Mike's making installments throughout the project. He didn't make a lump sum of $200k, and then another lump sum of $450k. Once he overspent his initial $200k budget, an intelligent person like Mike would have been on high alert. You would be a fool to keep paying on broken promises. A greater fool to pay with money you don't have. And a criminal to pay with customer deposits.

 

[George Jefferson Airplane]

I hope you guys have all changed your Paypal passwords by now.

Doesn't look like it.

Signed,

Mike Z

 

[Dizzy]

I wonder what he (Mike Z aka Unlucky) is thinking, reading all of this stuff? He was actively posting just a month ago so I assume he's still lurking.

Got a bit of fresh powder up the canyons this week though, so he may be up there burning through his newly-acquired retirement funds.

 

[cstu]

Just found this out today , as i would never use any service to host my leagues when i can do them myself.

2 years ago Michael contacted me and my small hobby website to build a skin for myfantasyleague.com for his Pheonoms hosting , so all his sites would match.

I whipped up something very quickly for $150 , i didn't have the time to do any of his website work , but a fair value on the website was about $2500 .

Now i see they were going to build thier own hosting service, i'd imagine to compete with MyFantasyLeague.com and RTSports.com

Well, the reason i don't buy this story is , i myself along with a few developers have been researching doing the same , we figured about 60K in cost for development , about 10K a year in server costs and 3-4k monthly in aquiring the data realtime.

600K really ??? If that amount is correct, which i don't see it even being close to 1/4th of reality , then they got hosed or are lying.

Thank you!

 

[robcards]

So I received a letter in the mail from my CC company today for each individual disputed charge. They are asking me to fax them (yeah, fax, wtf who still uses that) a signed letter detailing why I am disputing the charges, along with transaction logs and the correspondence I've had with Mike. Has anyone filing disputes gone through this? What all did you say? I'm wondering if this is even worth wasting time into as it will be unlikely to be successful.

 

[fuzzy]

I have a question. If phenoms was a 1 man operation, what would happen if Mike skied headfirst into a tree one day? Would 700+ leagues be in the same boat as we are now?

Fuzzy,do you have a backup plan? Just curious about this.

[SIZE=14pt]Great question that I have been asked m[/SIZE]

A more believable story would have been paying the budget of $200k, making another installment of let's say $100k to complete the web project. If the project is still not completed after that, you stop payments and file legal action against the web designer company.

That's generally now how software development works. There is very rarely a true definition of "done" or "complete."

This is usually how it goes...

Customer: I want an app that does X, Y, Z.

Developer: Ok, that will cost about $N.

Customer: Sounds great, let's go.

Developer: Ok, here it is.

Customer: Hmm, well now that I see it, I'd like to make some changes. Let's change X, Y, Z.

Developer: Ok, that'll be another $N.

Customer: Ok

Developer: Done

Customer: Looks good, but I thought of another feature I want.

Developer: Ok, that'll be another $N.

Customer: Ok

Developer: Done

Customer: Hmm, well now that I see it, I'd like to make some changes. Let's change X, Y, Z.

... repeat forever.

These iterations can be really small, or really large, but that's often the general the pattern.

That is ABSOLUTELY how it goes. As the owner of a dev shop, I have done a LOT of jobs that had 3x cost over-runs, and none of them had anything to do with me suckering anyone in.

They call it requirements creep or scope creep in the business, and it happens more often than not - especially for small/new businesses who have never gone through a dev process before. I can easily believe the story he laid out there, but as others have mentioned it doesn't at all mean what he did wasn't illegal or immoral.

But it's creep...and there's deliverables and landmarks/milestones and actual decisions about moving forward and actually advancing more cash. The original letter made it seem like he got quoted $200K, guy came back and said it would cost $600K, and he was forced to pay him.

I have a question. If phenoms was a 1 man operation, what would happen if Mike skied headfirst into a tree one day? Would 700+ leagues be in the same boat as we are now?

Fuzzy,do you have a backup plan? Just curious about this.

I have been asked many times. I own a web development company. The lead developer has my back-up plan which details who (a client of mine and another site owner) will manage Fuzzys if anything were to happen to me during the season. The development team and the other site owner will work together to ensure the season continues as planned.

On a side note with the development figures in this post - costs can increase in web development as scope can change but it is not fathomable that a seasoned veteran in this industry would consider the 200k – 630k figures acceptable knowing how long it would take to recoup that expense.

Also, does anyone really believe that someone would intentionally take that money thinking they can ride off into the sunset without consequences? First, it really isn't enough to live comfortably for the remainder of life (unless you don't plan on living too long which is feasible when you rip thousands of people off). Second, the fear that some disgruntled member that you ripped off will come and hunt you down. Third, dealing with legal proceedings / government action isn’t on the top of my wish list.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

http://utahvalley360.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Meet-the-Robinsons-plan-thought-through.gif

 

[Mikeisonabeachearning20%]

Anyone who is attempting a CC chargeback, how are you getting around the 90 day window?

My CC (mastercard) didn't blink about a 90 day window. FYI to anyone attempting a CC chargeback, don't attempt to try to explain what happened or any fantasy football league mumbo jumbo to them. They don't speak this language. All they want to know is that you paid for a product you didn't receive. They hit the appropriate button and tell you the case will be resolved one way or the other within 60 days.

I started the chargeback process, however my situation was a little more complicated. They did ask questions of the nature of the services provided and the who, what, when and how of it all.

To be honest, It felt a bit like an interrogation to get me to admit it was fantasy football related. I basically told them that this company was to provide "a sports entertainment service in which they coordinate, supervise and manage the funds of our group". He asked what was the reasoning for the transactions to be disputed now after the 118 day period had elapsed and I said because the service was an ongoing process that needed to be completed in it's entirety for the transactions to be valid in the first place.

There was a lot more to the conversation but I'll spare you the details. I feel like I need a shower though. They said to gather up emails and as much evidence as I could and they would send the paperwork to initiate the investigation.

This isn't going to end well but it doesn't require much effort on my end so I feel it's worth trying.

Of course you need a shower. You couldn't even admit the reason you were begging for your money back. If you are that ashamed to say it was FF, then you probably shouldn't be calling.

I'm hardly ashamed. I simply was making sure I wasn't giving the person on the other end any additional reason to deny me based on ignorance of FF or their willingness to make the leap to gambling. Mission accomplished. Troll elsewhere.

There is no trolling going on.

And you can stop lying. The only reason you or anyone else doesn't tell the person on the phone it's Fantasy Football is simple. Instant denial and hangup.

Easier to make up a story to try and scam your money back. We all get it.

Joined 16-December 14

And? I joined for this topic as I was a part of it. Since it just took place obviously that would explain the date.

Just because you don't want to hear the truth doesn't make me or anyone else new a troll.

 

[duckduckgoose]

Good God if you're actually debating whether someone spends hundreds of thousands of dollars that doesn't belong to them on a web development project then I have a bunch of montee ball and cordarrelle Pattersons to trade you.

 

[hamhocs]

Thanks Fuzzy. Now if I would have done my due diligence before, I would have been able to make the following comparison. Fuzzy owns a web development company and has a disaster recovery plan in place. Mike Z is a one man operation who has a system to bet on the home team, but really can't stomach the losses. But he does offer a higher payout, except when the payout is zero.

I did play in a Fuzzy league one year and plan on doing so again starting with the playoffs in a couple weeks. I don't even need to think twice about that.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

And? I joined for this topic as I was a part of it. Since it just took place obviously that would explain the date. Just because you don't want to hear the truth doesn't make me or anyone else new a troll.

It's the fact that you're trolling that makes you a troll.

 

[cloppbeast]

It's called the united states government. They borrow money they don't have. Print more to cover it. Then kick the can down the road to the next group of politicians coming into office. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

What percent interest was Mike paying on the loans? Did his lenders know he was borrowing their money? What was the payback period? Does Mike have a 200 year history of paying his creditors?

I'm not seeing the parallels.

No fiat currency has ever stood the test of time. 100% of them have failed, including the United States' first currency, the Continental.

No country on a gold standard has stood the test of time either.

What country has stuck with it?

 

[CalBear]

It's called the united states government. They borrow money they don't have. Print more to cover it. Then kick the can down the road to the next group of politicians coming into office. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

What percent interest was Mike paying on the loans? Did his lenders know he was borrowing their money? What was the payback period? Does Mike have a 200 year history of paying his creditors?

I'm not seeing the parallels.

No fiat currency has ever stood the test of time. 100% of them have failed, including the United States' first currency, the Continental.

No country on a gold standard has stood the test of time either.

What country has stuck with it?

Oh for heaven's sake.

 

[ROCKET]

Just found this out today , as i would never use any service to host my leagues when i can do them myself.

2 years ago Michael contacted me and my small hobby website to build a skin for myfantasyleague.com for his Pheonoms hosting , so all his sites would match.

I whipped up something very quickly for $150 , i didn't have the time to do any of his website work , but a fair value on the website was about $2500 .

Now i see they were going to build thier own hosting service, i'd imagine to compete with MyFantasyLeague.com and RTSports.com

Well, the reason i don't buy this story is , i myself along with a few developers have been researching doing the same , we figured about 60K in cost for development , about 10K a year in server costs and 3-4k monthly in aquiring the data realtime.

600K really ??? If that amount is correct, which i don't see it even being close to 1/4th of reality , then they got hosed or are lying.

I know nothing about website design or programming but even I can tell 600K is a ridiculous amount to spend on a website for a business that does most likely less than a million dollars of business a year. That's 60% of your total gross business. I smell bs. The guy is a crook either way you slice it and this website story is laughable.

 

[Dizzy]

So I received a letter in the mail from my CC company today for each individual disputed charge. They are asking me to fax them (yeah, fax, wtf who still uses that) a signed letter detailing why I am disputing the charges, along with transaction logs and the correspondence I've had with Mike. Has anyone filing disputes gone through this? What all did you say? I'm wondering if this is even worth wasting time into as it will be unlikely to be successful.

I've disputed a few credit card charges as well as medical coverage claims (or lack there of actually) in the past few years, and every time it had to be submitted via facsimile (or snail mail). No electronic submittals were accepted.

 

[ROCKET]

So I received a letter in the mail from my CC company today for each individual disputed charge. They are asking me to fax them (yeah, fax, wtf who still uses that) a signed letter detailing why I am disputing the charges, along with transaction logs and the correspondence I've had with Mike. Has anyone filing disputes gone through this? What all did you say? I'm wondering if this is even worth wasting time into as it will be unlikely to be successful.

I've disputed a few credit card charges as well as medical coverage claims (or lack there of actually) in the past few years, and every time it had to be submitted via facsimile (or snail mail). No electronic submittals were accepted.

That is because legally there has to be a real paper trail and not an electronic one. I still have to fax ( or send originals) all the time for business because of this.

 

[ROCKET]

One other thought about the website development story. Let's say for the sake of argument he wanted to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get it done. Fine, no problem. So the rational way to go about this is to apply for a business loan or convince someone to invest in the business model.

Nope, not Mike he just takes the $$ out of the entry fees/prize money to finance it. This makes zero sense. I'm not buying it and anyone giving him the benefit of the doubt is a complete idiot. He pi$$ed all that money away one way or the other with no regard for any of his customers. A complete pos in my book.

 

[duckduckgoose]

This is exactly what happened:

Silver Linings Playbook - Robert De Niro lost his: http://youtu.be/PwwAhX3fwlQ

 

[Raiderfan32904]

So I received a letter in the mail from my CC company today for each individual disputed charge. They are asking me to fax them (yeah, fax, wtf who still uses that) a signed letter detailing why I am disputing the charges, along with transaction logs and the correspondence I've had with Mike. Has anyone filing disputes gone through this? What all did you say? I'm wondering if this is even worth wasting time into as it will be unlikely to be successful.

I've disputed a few credit card charges as well as medical coverage claims (or lack there of actually) in the past few years, and every time it had to be submitted via facsimile (or snail mail). No electronic submittals were accepted.

My CC company told me the same. Either Fax or snail mail. Seems like a pain but they won't do disputes any other way.

 

[Futz]

So I received a letter in the mail from my CC company today for each individual disputed charge. They are asking me to fax them (yeah, fax, wtf who still uses that) a signed letter detailing why I am disputing the charges, along with transaction logs and the correspondence I've had with Mike. Has anyone filing disputes gone through this? What all did you say? I'm wondering if this is even worth wasting time into as it will be unlikely to be successful.

I've disputed a few credit card charges as well as medical coverage claims (or lack there of actually) in the past few years, and every time it had to be submitted via facsimile (or snail mail). No electronic submittals were accepted.

My CC company told me the same. Either Fax or snail mail. Seems like a pain but they won't do disputes any other way.

Whatever it takes for a small amount of redemption of the money, deposits, and unreasonable time and effort I put in to 3 years of running a dynasty team only to be defrauded.

 

[duckduckgoose]

Free electronic fax: http://myfax.com/free/

Free pdf combiner: http://www.pdfmerge.com

Also, FYI, we're getting some traction with the FBI's ic3 division and they're opening a preliminary investigation. If you haven't yet filed a complaint with them please do. The more that do the more likely this gets resolved relatively quickly.

http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/default.aspx?

 

[Chili Cheese Burrito]

I hope you guys have all changed your Paypal passwords by now.

Why? Does accessing phenoms install a key logger?

 

[Jrodicus]

Anyone who is attempting a CC chargeback, how are you getting around the 90 day window?

My CC (mastercard) didn't blink about a 90 day window. FYI to anyone attempting a CC chargeback, don't attempt to try to explain what happened or any fantasy football league mumbo jumbo to them. They don't speak this language. All they want to know is that you paid for a product you didn't receive. They hit the appropriate button and tell you the case will be resolved one way or the other within 60 days.

I started the chargeback process, however my situation was a little more complicated. They did ask questions of the nature of the services provided and the who, what, when and how of it all.To be honest, It felt a bit like an interrogation to get me to admit it was fantasy football related. I basically told them that this company was to provide "a sports entertainment service in which they coordinate, supervise and manage the funds of our group". He asked what was the reasoning for the transactions to be disputed now after the 118 day period had elapsed and I said because the service was an ongoing process that needed to be completed in it's entirety for the transactions to be valid in the first place.

There was a lot more to the conversation but I'll spare you the details. I feel like I need a shower though. They said to gather up emails and as much evidence as I could and they would send the paperwork to initiate the investigation.

This isn't going to end well but it doesn't require much effort on my end so I feel it's worth trying.

Of course you need a shower. You couldn't even admit the reason you were begging for your money back. If you are that ashamed to say it was FF, then you probably shouldn't be calling.

I'm hardly ashamed. I simply was making sure I wasn't giving the person on the other end any additional reason to deny me based on ignorance of FF or their willingness to make the leap to gambling. Mission accomplished. Troll elsewhere.

There is no trolling going on.And you can stop lying. The only reason you or anyone else doesn't tell the person on the phone it's Fantasy Football is simple. Instant denial and hangup.

Easier to make up a story to try and scam your money back. We all get it.

Joined 16-December 14

I want to know how the heck he's earning 20%.

 

[Team Legacy]

After closely following Fantasy Jungle, AFFL and WCOFF this is devastating to see. We as fantasy players need to be watchful for ANY red flags, including but not limited to:

1. Accepting signups from Illegal States

2. Not properly accounting or reporting earnings for tax purposes

3. Adjusting prize pools after taking signups

We will be running a freeroll post-season fantasy tournament. After seeing how this went down, I hope a Phenoms player wins it. Details and prizes to be announced soon.

 

[SCYCPA]

Anyone who is attempting a CC chargeback, how are you getting around the 90 day window?

My CC (mastercard) didn't blink about a 90 day window. FYI to anyone attempting a CC chargeback, don't attempt to try to explain what happened or any fantasy football league mumbo jumbo to them. They don't speak this language. All they want to know is that you paid for a product you didn't receive. They hit the appropriate button and tell you the case will be resolved one way or the other within 60 days.

I started the chargeback process, however my situation was a little more complicated. They did ask questions of the nature of the services provided and the who, what, when and how of it all.To be honest, It felt a bit like an interrogation to get me to admit it was fantasy football related. I basically told them that this company was to provide "a sports entertainment service in which they coordinate, supervise and manage the funds of our group". He asked what was the reasoning for the transactions to be disputed now after the 118 day period had elapsed and I said because the service was an ongoing process that needed to be completed in it's entirety for the transactions to be valid in the first place.

There was a lot more to the conversation but I'll spare you the details. I feel like I need a shower though. They said to gather up emails and as much evidence as I could and they would send the paperwork to initiate the investigation.

This isn't going to end well but it doesn't require much effort on my end so I feel it's worth trying.

Of course you need a shower. You couldn't even admit the reason you were begging for your money back. If you are that ashamed to say it was FF, then you probably shouldn't be calling.

I'm hardly ashamed. I simply was making sure I wasn't giving the person on the other end any additional reason to deny me based on ignorance of FF or their willingness to make the leap to gambling. Mission accomplished. Troll elsewhere.

There is no trolling going on.And you can stop lying. The only reason you or anyone else doesn't tell the person on the phone it's Fantasy Football is simple. Instant denial and hangup.

Easier to make up a story to try and scam your money back. We all get it.

Joined 16-December 14

I want to know how the heck he's earning 20%.

That's after the lawyers get paid their 80%

 

[Drunken Benson]

I'm catching up and in and out of this thread.. feel bad for all affected...

Just wondering, where in this thread is there stuff about calling his dad and family? I at that idea... good for anyone who called.... let this stank hang on mike

Nah, I vote to leave his dad out of it. If he ripped us off, you can be sure he "borrowed" a ton of money from papa. Families tend the be the first victims of scumbags.

 

[cutiepie]

Anyone who is attempting a CC chargeback, how are you getting around the 90 day window?

My CC (mastercard) didn't blink about a 90 day window. FYI to anyone attempting a CC chargeback, don't attempt to try to explain what happened or any fantasy football league mumbo jumbo to them. They don't speak this language. All they want to know is that you paid for a product you didn't receive. They hit the appropriate button and tell you the case will be resolved one way or the other within 60 days.

I started the chargeback process, however my situation was a little more complicated. They did ask questions of the nature of the services provided and the who, what, when and how of it all.To be honest, It felt a bit like an interrogation to get me to admit it was fantasy football related. I basically told them that this company was to provide "a sports entertainment service in which they coordinate, supervise and manage the funds of our group". He asked what was the reasoning for the transactions to be disputed now after the 118 day period had elapsed and I said because the service was an ongoing process that needed to be completed in it's entirety for the transactions to be valid in the first place.

There was a lot more to the conversation but I'll spare you the details. I feel like I need a shower though. They said to gather up emails and as much evidence as I could and they would send the paperwork to initiate the investigation.

This isn't going to end well but it doesn't require much effort on my end so I feel it's worth trying.

Of course you need a shower. You couldn't even admit the reason you were begging for your money back. If you are that ashamed to say it was FF, then you probably shouldn't be calling.

I'm hardly ashamed. I simply was making sure I wasn't giving the person on the other end any additional reason to deny me based on ignorance of FF or their willingness to make the leap to gambling. Mission accomplished. Troll elsewhere.

There is no trolling going on.And you can stop lying. The only reason you or anyone else doesn't tell the person on the phone it's Fantasy Football is simple. Instant denial and hangup.

Easier to make up a story to try and scam your money back. We all get it.

Joined 16-December 14

I want to know how the heck he's earning 20%.

That's after the lawyers get paid their 80%

Fantasy Sports is 100% legal. There is no reason not to tell your credit card company and for sure it will not be an instant denial. I told my CC company the truth and they credited me in 24 hours. Not sure what kind of banks you guys are dealing with. Have no idea what you are talking about. The government has said it isn't gambling and the CC companies allow the charges. Just be honest.

 

[duckduckgoose]

I'd be more worried about the password you logged into phenoms if you use it to log into other sites. I know the landing page was self-made (or so Mike claimed when we discussed it) so depending on how it was encrypted Mike could have access to it. I'd also like to point out that if you claimed winnings at Phenoms is past years you sent tax forms with your social security number and address to Phenoms.

I'm not too worried about that though as I'm still not convinced this was any sort of long sociopathic con as opposed to someone who got caught in a corner and acted incredibly stupid but I think its something we should all be aware of.

 

[cstu]

I'm catching up and in and out of this thread.. feel bad for all affected...

Just wondering, where in this thread is there stuff about calling his dad and family? I at that idea... good for anyone who called.... let this stank hang on mike

Nah, I vote to leave his dad out of it. If he ripped us off, you can be sure he "borrowed" a ton of money from papa. Families tend the be the first victims of scumbags.

At least it would be nice to find out what the family knows about him.

 

[SCYCPA]

I'm catching up and in and out of this thread.. feel bad for all affected...

Just wondering, where in this thread is there stuff about calling his dad and family? I at that idea... good for anyone who called.... let this stank hang on mike

Nah, I vote to leave his dad out of it. If he ripped us off, you can be sure he "borrowed" a ton of money from papa. Families tend the be the first victims of scumbags.

At least it would be nice to find out what the family knows about him.

Mike's an adult, over the age of 18. Leave his family out of it. Good Lord, you people are just fools.

If you forgot to pay your electric bill one month would you want them calling your parents threatening them or publishing their information on the internet for all to see?

You can bet his parents probably know about this already being as it's been on USA Today and all...they don't need Billy Joe Jim Bob Moron from Podunk Kentucky calling them and threatening to beat them up because they lost $50 in a fantasy football league. SMDH

Get some perspective, people. And let the blasting begin....