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QB Andy Dalton, CAR (1 Viewer)

People who take for granted that anyone can just come in and throw that many TDs passes just because he has great talent around him really have no business expressing their opinions on a football message board. It takes talent. Plenty of it.

He's not Drew Brees. But the funny thing is that Drew Brees wasn't Drew Brees early in his career. He was just a somewhat accurate QB without a ton of arm strength who made a lot of mistakes and hadn't had a lot of success in the NFL in his first 3 years. He had shown so little that the Chargers drafted Rivers in 2004. He grew to make better decisions, increased his arm strength a little, got into a perfect system and BAM, he's a stud to everyone. You should go back and read opinions about him in 2003.

Dalton's going to have to improve to reach the next level, because his arm isn't strong enough yet and his decision making needs to improve if he's consistently going to win in big games. It'll help to have an OC who doesn't abandon the running game in critical moments. But to even THINK about writing off a 4th year QB who's had that kind of success is ridiculous.

 
Rotoworld:

Andy Dalton - QB - Bengals
Bengals WRs Mohamed Sanu and Marvin Jones pointed to Andy Dalton's improved arm strength and velocity following Wednesday's OTAs.

"Best I’ve seen him," said Sanu. "It’s on you fast. You turn around and you’re like, ‘whoa.’" Dalton worked with QB guru Tom House in Los Angeles over the offseason. "He’s got a lot of zing, a lot of velocity to him,’ said Jones. "He’s spinning the ball real nice." Dalton is entering a contract year and is going to have his number of throws scaled back under new run-heavy OC Hue Jackson. Fantasy-wise, Dalton is a middling QB2 option.

Source: bengals.com
 
Wow Rotoworld is bad. Dalton is a middling qb2 option in fantasy? Please tell me these 17 other quarterbacks you would rather have this year in fantasy? I understand he isn't Peyton, Brady, Brees or Rodgers but come on!

 
Rotoworld:

Andy Dalton - QB - Bengals

New OC Hue Jackson emphasized that "first and foremost" the Bengals' offense must cut down turnovers.

Andy Dalton threw the fifth most interceptions (20) in football last season, and committed three more turnovers in Cincinnati's first-round playoff loss. "The ball is one of the most precious things in the game and we have to protect it with everything we have," said Jackson. "We have to find a way to consistently run the football and be a dominating, aggressive unit that we have the potential to be." Look for Dalton's pass attempts to drop significantly under Jackson as he's turned into more of a game manager.

Source: bengals.com
May 23 - 2:32 PM
 
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Hue Jackson: Time for Andy Dalton 'to be great'By Dan Hanzus

Around the League Writer

Excerpt:

Andy Dalton has found success in his first three seasons with the Cincinnati Bengals.

Relative success, anyway. The Bengals have qualified for the postseason all three seasons Dalton has been starter, but the team has followed each berth with a one-and-done in the playoffs.

Dalton is the face of that success (and failure), and new offensive coordinator Hue Jackson says the time has come for the quarterback to take the next step.

"He wants to be great. He's not interested in being good anymore," Jackson told the team's official website. "Good has gotten us three playoff appearances with no wins. I think he wants to be great and he's working at it. That's all you can hope for at this point."
 
The funniest part is that even Joe Flacco doesn't deserve Joe Flacco-money. But yeah, let's give it to a guy who pisses himself every postseason.

 
He is lucky he's on a roster.
:huh:He's lucky he's on a roster? Just. Wow.
Seriously...guy has certainly not shined in the playoffs, but they don't get there without him. I'd be interested in how many QBs (forget it is their first three years in the league), could take the Bengals to the playoffs three years in a row? Maybe 8-10, maybe?
The only excuse I could offer for a comment like that is that he's a Raider fan and so it's been a long time since he's seen anything resembling professional football.

 
Dalton is good enough to be an NFL starting QB, but the idea of him getting Joe Flacco-money really is hysterical. Hey Andy, play worth a darn in a SINGLE playoff game and then ask for a small raise.

 
http://mmqb.si.com/2014/03/25/andy-dalton-cincinnati-bengals-marvin-lewis/

ORLANDO — If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results, then the Bengals are certifiable when it comes to quarterback Andy Dalton.

Forget what owner Mike Brown said earlier this week about Dalton, hinting that the team wasn’t yet sold on giving him a new contract. Coach Marvin Lewis comments at the AFC coaches breakfast on Tuesday leave no doubt that the Bengals are fully committed to keeping Dalton as their QB of the future. The only question is whether they get a contract extension done now, or whether they do a franchise tag/extension dance after next season. The bottom line is Dalton is Cincinnati’s guy, no question.

“Oh yeah,” Lewis said.

Why, exactly?

“Because he’s done what most people have never done,” Lewis explained. “He’s taken a team to the playoffs three years in a row, from a rookie on, and continues to ascend and get better.”

There is little question that Dalton has been good in the regular season, at times playing very well. The stats and the film study bear this out.

Dalton, 26, has started all 48 games since being a second-round pick in 2011, with a 30-18 record. The win total has increased by one each season. He’s improved from completing 58.1% of his passes as a rookie to being around 62% over the past two seasons. Dalton’s yardage and touchdowns have increased every season, but so have his interceptions. Dalton’s passer rating has gone from 80.4 as a rookie to 88.8 as a third-year pro.

But it must be pointed out that Dalton has played on supremely talented teams. He was not a rookie who was forced to make chicken salad out of chicken … well, you know.

This past season, the Bengals had a deep and forceful defense that ranked among the top five in yards and points allowed. They also forced 31 turnovers (tied for third in the NFL) to give Dalton extra possessions. On offense, Dalton had the pleasure of dropping back behind one of the league’s best pass-blocking units (second only to the quick-throwing Broncos in The MMQB’s final Pressure Points ratings), and he also threw to targets such as A.J. Green, Giovani Bernard, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Jermaine Gresham and Tyler Eifert. Maybe the Bengals lacked a solid running game (28th in yards per attempt), but not everybody’s the pre-salary cap Dallas Cowboys.

So, yes, Dalton did a good job of executing a talented offense on arguably one of the league’s best-stocked rosters in the regular season. But …

What about the postseason? The Bengals and Dalton are 0-3 in the playoffs while averaging of 11 points per game, including a 27-10 home loss to the Chargers in January.


“We lost the football game, and the quarterback gets the blame when you lose,” Lewis said of the most recent postseason loss. “But we didn’t cover people on third downs, we fumbled the football, Andy had a fumble. We didn’t protect Andy. So we as coaches have to do a better job. We all lost.”

This is where the disconnect occurs between the Bengals and the rest of the football-loving country. The Bengals go out of their way to make excuses for Dalton, firmly believing one win will serve as a breakthrough that will propel Dalton from being a solid starter to a very good one. It’s their opinion, and they’re entitled to it.

The rest of the country sees a quarterback who plays with zero confidence when the games matter most, and a QB who turned in not just bad postseason games but god-awful performances: three interceptions as a rookie against Houston (when he lost to backup T.J. Yates); a 46.7 completion percentage and a 44.7 rating in a 19-13 loss to Texans in which Dalton missed several opportunities to win the game in his second season; and then last season’s loss to the Chargers. After holding a 10-7 halftime lead, the Bengals punted, Dalton fumbled without being contacted, and then he threw interceptions on back-to-back drives.

With a résumé like that, most teams would wait for a quarterback to prove himself worthy of even a $15 million per year contract (the going rate for a top quarterback is $20 million). The importance of making sure you have the right guy at the most crucial position can’t be overstated. If Dalton suddenly takes the Bengals to the AFC Championship Game this year and it ends up costing Cincinnati a little more money next offseason, that beats the alternative of backing the wrong guy to be your franchise quarterback—just look at what happened when the Jets extended Mark Sanchez’s contract.


But the Bengals are all in on Dalton, even though he’s yet to have a respectable showing in a playoff game, let alone winning one.

“We feel like we have a great young player in Andy, we’re hopeful that we can get a deal done that works,” Lewis said. “And he can put it behind him, he can get back to focusing on football, he doesn’t have to go into the season and worry about this contract thing being one of the—I mean, every week someone’s going to ask him the question—and then it gets to there and then are you going to franchise him, all of the things that come into play later on. Let’s get it behind us, something that works for everyone, something that allows us to keep tackles in front of you, receivers on the outside, guys on the other side of the football, so it works for everyone.”

The Bengals want to make sure their prized flower, who has wilted when the pressure has been at its highest, continues to grow inside the coddled existence they’ve carved out for him. Dalton’s always been the starter and never had to worry about competition. Now, after Lewis’ comments, having to worry about a contract would bring too much stress to a player who plays a position where imperviousness to pressure is as vital as breathing. (The 2012 Ravens and Joe Flacco would disagree).

Meanwhile, the Bengals’ rivals in the AFC are quietly hoping that Cincinnati will fully invest in a player who has been the one impediment to it ascending to a Super Bowl contender with a roster dripping with talent.

Just don’t try to tell Lewis that.

“I’m tired of answering questions about Andy that don’t make any sense, you know what I mean?” Lewis said. “Andy’s done a fine job for us. We all want to be better and once he does that, all that rest will go away. But he’s compared to Drew Brees, compared with (Aaron) Rodgers and guys that didn’t get the chance to play until later on. They sat and they watched. We had to throw Andy in right away and I think he’s done a really good job and he will continue to get better, until he proves he won’t.”

If the Bengals extend Dalton now, when everyone outside Paul Brown Stadium has sizeable doubts about his ability to win in the postseason, he just might rise to the challenge and prove himself. But it could be way too late for a Bengals team that was ready to win big two years ago.
In other words, nothing A.J. McCarron can't do for a lot less than $15M.

 
But it must be pointed out that Dalton has played on supremely talented teams. He was not a rookie who was forced to make chicken salad out of chicken … well, you know.This past season, the Bengals had a deep and forceful defense that ranked among the top five in yards and points allowed. They also forced 31 turnovers (tied for third in the NFL) to give Dalton extra possessions. On offense, Dalton had the pleasure of dropping back behind one of the league’s best pass-blocking units (second only to the quick-throwing Broncos in The MMQB’s final Pressure Points ratings), and he also threw to targets such as A.J. Green, Giovani Bernard, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Jermaine Gresham and Tyler Eifert. Maybe the Bengals lacked a solid running game (28th in yards per attempt), but not everybody’s the pre-salary cap Dallas Cowboys.
I'm no Dalton guy, but this guy is dramatically overrating Sanu, Jones, Gresham, Eifert, and Bernard.

 
I've mentioned it several times already in this thread that Dalton is the real deal. After reading some of the recent posts, I feel the need to reiterate my stance on Dalton and give some perspective on why he shouldn't be considered a failure just yet.

Dalton is a proven winner. Andy Dalton was a 4 year starter in college with an overall record of 42-8. Of those 8 total losses, 5 came his freshman season. Dalton went 34-3 his last three seasons, including bowl games. Dalton went undefeated in both his Jr and Sr regular seasons and only lost 1 total game in those seasons, the bowl game his Jr year. Dalton has literally improved every single year like clockwork. The dude is going to be a STUD, mark my words.

Dalton first three years progression NFL:

Yards - 3,398/3,669/4,293

TDs - 20/27/33

Completion % - 58/62/62

QB Rating - 80/88/89

It's laughable that people think 30 TD QBs just grow on trees. QB is the most difficult position to learn and master and Dalton's arrow is pointing up in that regard without a doubt. The author of that article a few posts above, Greg Bedard, is a moron for thinking it's time for CIN to move on from Dalton. Andy Dalton has completed just 3 seasons in the NFL. Aaron Rodgers didn't start until season 4. Drew Brees played 5 seasons in San Diego and EVERYONE was calling for the Chargers to move on from Brees and start Rivers. In fact, Drew Brees didn't have a 30 TD season until his 8th year in the league. Peyton Manning - argued by many as the best QB to ever play - didn't win a playoff game until his 6th season in the league and unlike Rodgers and Brees who didn't start in their rookie seasons, Manning was the starter from day 1.

So to reiterate my stance about Dalton. Let's slow down a bit on labeling him as a bust or as someone who shouldn't be a starting QB or as only mediocre and that CIN can find anyone to do what he's done. Those of you proclaiming all that nonsense have VERY short memories and/or lack any sense of NFL history and the QB position. It's absolutely absurd to disregard his incredible start to what will ultimately be a perennial pro-bowl career. He threw 27 then 33 TDs in his 2nd and 3rd NFL seasons respectively.

Some of the above was copied from posts I made on page 7 of this thread... no reason to re-write what I already wrote. Those of us who are Dalton supporters will have the last laugh on this topic, I'm sure of it. I'm just amazed that so many people have no reference to the QB position historically. If CIN moved on from Dalton, it would be a terrible, terrible mistake. You Bengal fans who wish they would move on from him have no idea what you're talking about.

 
2 Andy Dalton qb 2011--2013 48 992 1631 11363 6.97 80 49 926.74 Matt Ryan qb 2008--2010 46 885 1456 10061 6.91 66 34 772.65 Cam Newton qb 2011--2013 48 882 1475 11299 7.66 64 42 1153.58 Joe Flacco qb 2008--2010 48 878 1416 10206 7.21 60 34 771.29 M. Stafford qb 2009--2011 29 679 1136 7840 6.90 60 37 632.7TD's by QB's in their first 3 years.

Pro-rated to 48 games, Stafford would have 99 TD's.

 
2 Andy Dalton qb 2011--2013 48 992 1631 11363 6.97 80 49 926.74 Matt Ryan qb 2008--2010 46 885 1456 10061 6.91 66 34 772.65 Cam Newton qb 2011--2013 48 882 1475 11299 7.66 64 42 1153.58 Joe Flacco qb 2008--2010 48 878 1416 10206 7.21 60 34 771.29 M. Stafford qb 2009--2011 29 679 1136 7840 6.90 60 37 632.7TD's by QB's in their first 3 years.

Pro-rated to 48 games, Stafford would have 99 TD's.
So Dalton has 80 TDs compared with the 60s for everyone else on that list but the list has only 5 QBs on it. What are you trying to prove? I'm legitimately confused.

 
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What do you pay this guy if you are in charge? If the Bengals do not make further ground this season how do you devote 100+ million to him?
I would love it if they did. He is the reason they are stuck in purgatory. Team is great, but Dalton is a bottom third qb. At least Eli and Flacco have hot streaks. The best Dalton has is lighting up inferior competition. He is at his worst in big spots,
 
I watch a lot of Bengals football, a lot. Not every game but at least 8 games a year. I don't see it anywhere close to your take. I think korensteve has it right.
def agree more with this take. i mean, ya, he aint a yards after catch monster or physical freak, but he is an amazing deep ball receiver. he goes up and gets the ball with the best in the game. and @lourch, he gets open deep and the only reason he doestn have more of those tds is bc dalton just misses him a high percentage of the time.

but ya, i agree green does all of the things louche says, but he gets open deep and hauls in jump balls with the best of them (ok ya, hes not on calvin's level, but everyone else he hangs with.)

its hard to find a solid qb, so its a massive risk to jettison dalton who has shown competency. especially given how talented this team is. i mean, ya, if you can somehow bring in cam newton or philip rivers or jay cutler, go for it. but the draft is so risky, and careers are so short, that it is too likely to end up with someone like gabbert or ponder of campbell. and even if you hit on a solid player, it usually takes a few yrs to develop so that is even more lost seasons.

so the bengals are stuck with dalton unless something goofy happens and they end up with the top pick and andrew luck 2.0 comes up. or drew brees decides he wants to play there to end his career ala favre.

and this whole hue jackson running offense thing better be some smokescreen or flat out hoax. this aint 1975. bengals have a ton of passing talent and the rules are tilted to that method. if they go 3 yards and a cloud then i got a bad feeling this team will be the underachievers of the year by a mile. gruden got a lot of hate but i think its gonna become pretty damn apparent that he was excellent at molding an offense to his players talents and masking their deficiencies.

i am fading all bengals this year except hill. i like gio, just not at his adp comparable to other options.

 
The problem with QB's right now is there is no middle ground on second contracts. They either franchise money like Flacco, Cutler and Kaep just did or you let them walk and start with someone new. Smart teams extend their QB before a new contract becomes an issue because they know big QB contracts can weigh down a team.

 
The problem with QB's right now is there is no middle ground on second contracts. They either franchise money like Flacco, Cutler and Kaep just did or you let them walk and start with someone new. Smart teams extend their QB before a new contract becomes an issue because they know big QB contracts can weigh down a team.
You're right, only the rookie deals under the new CBA prevent teams from extending rookies until the last year of their deal now.

 
The problem with QB's right now is there is no middle ground on second contracts. They either franchise money like Flacco, Cutler and Kaep just did or you let them walk and start with someone new. Smart teams extend their QB before a new contract becomes an issue because they know big QB contracts can weigh down a team.
you're dead on. Flacco didn't deserve Flacco money and Dalton certainly doesn't deserve it either. He's a middle of the road QB and should get a middle of the road deal.

 
The problem with QB's right now is there is no middle ground on second contracts. They either franchise money like Flacco, Cutler and Kaep just did or you let them walk and start with someone new. Smart teams extend their QB before a new contract becomes an issue because they know big QB contracts can weigh down a team.
you're dead on. Flacco didn't deserve Flacco money and Dalton certainly doesn't deserve it either. He's a middle of the road QB and should get a middle of the road deal.
The reality of the situation, though, is that starting over at QB when you are a legitimate playoff team just really doesn't make a ton of sense. The chances of Dalton / Kaepernick / Cutler / etc going on a Flacco-esque hot streak and making a playoff run is likely greater than that of hitting on a rookie replacement. And GMs stick around longer by playing it safe with "good" than by trying to roll the dice looking for "great" and possibly setting the franchise back for years if they crap out.

 
The problem with QB's right now is there is no middle ground on second contracts. They either franchise money like Flacco, Cutler and Kaep just did or you let them walk and start with someone new. Smart teams extend their QB before a new contract becomes an issue because they know big QB contracts can weigh down a team.
you're dead on. Flacco didn't deserve Flacco money and Dalton certainly doesn't deserve it either. He's a middle of the road QB and should get a middle of the road deal.
Flacco won a Super Bowl.

If Dalton does what Flacco did in his contract year then he will get paid,

If Dalton does what Dalton usually does he should not.

 
I think Romo sets the bar for Dalton - in terms of performance and playoff success. That would put Dalton in the 7 year/$120M range. About the going rate for guys who perform roughly equivalent to him - Romo, Cutler, Flacco, etc

I don't get you guys sometimes. You act as though obtaining an elite QB is simple, and so Dalton should be viewed as a complete failure and incompetent. He's very early in his career, by all accounts is still growing as a QB, and had shown some very desirable attributes. You think a guy like that ought to just be kicked to the curb and a team ought to take a flyer on complete unknown future rookies?

That's just a really weird mindset.

 
I think Romo sets the bar for Dalton - in terms of performance and playoff success. That would put Dalton in the 7 year/$120M range. About the going rate for guys who perform roughly equivalent to him - Romo, Cutler, Flacco, etc

I don't get you guys sometimes. You act as though obtaining an elite QB is simple, and so Dalton should be viewed as a complete failure and incompetent. He's very early in his career, by all accounts is still growing as a QB, and had shown some very desirable attributes. You think a guy like that ought to just be kicked to the curb and a team ought to take a flyer on complete unknown future rookies?

That's just a really weird mindset.
Romo routinely is forced to carry his team on his back. He has proven he can't. In a better environment he may thrive, but it's looking like that will never happen in his career.

The only teams deeper than Cincy are Seattle and San Fran, but Dalton holds the team back.

It isn't the same.

 
First of all, Dalton has been in the league three years. He was thrown into the fire as a rookie, played well, and has improved each of the last two years. It's absolutely absurd to believe that he's a finished product when QBs generally don't peak until their late 20s.

Second, how many NFL teams are definitively better off at QB moving forward than is Cincinatti? Dalton isn't Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, or anyone else in the elite tier. But he's much better than the dreck that probably half of the league is trotting out there weekly. He's a solid young QB with growth potential and firmly in the middle ground. At 26.

Third, how is letting a good QB who has taken his team to the playoffs EVERY YEAR walk in any way not an absolutely terrible idea? Cycling through a succession of rookies and cast offs hoping to hit the jackpot and maybe, maybe break even on the field while saving some money seems like a great way to completely waste a certain window of playoff appearances and possible contention. The odds of any rookie stepping in and being a major upgrade over Dalton right away are laughable.

I'm not sure whether it's a case of ridiculous expectations or whether it's the way one position in a team sport is judged solely on a tiny sample size of post season games, but either way, the hate for Andy Dalton is awful. Ask Raiders, Browns, Jags, Jets, Rams, Cards, etc fans if they'd take a guy that comes in and can consistently win 10 games and make the playoffs right out of the box.

 
Second, how many NFL teams are definitively better off at QB moving forward than is Cincinatti?
I'd ball park more than one third of them. Maybe half. I'd argue I'd rather have several others in the same tier as him too. I'd be surprised if I have Dalton in my top 20 among current QB's.

He's Matt Schaub two...three...four years ago. Houston started losing their talent due to the cap then the whole thing fell apart. Unless Dalton pulls a 180 the same thing will happen in Cincy. It's already started as they lost Michael Johnson and Andrew Hawkins this year. If they pay Dalton then some combo of Burfict, Marvin Jones, Gresham, Leon Hall, Andre Smith, Andre Whitworth, etc. will go.

They will pay AJ and have already paid Atkins and Dunlap. Not enough cash to go around to pay Dalton and keep most of the others. The increasing cap may open up room for one of them, but any more? Probably not.

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
cstu said:
2 Andy Dalton qb 2011--2013 48 992 1631 11363 6.97 80 49 926.74 Matt Ryan qb 2008--2010 46 885 1456 10061 6.91 66 34 772.65 Cam Newton qb 2011--2013 48 882 1475 11299 7.66 64 42 1153.58 Joe Flacco qb 2008--2010 48 878 1416 10206 7.21 60 34 771.29 M. Stafford qb 2009--2011 29 679 1136 7840 6.90 60 37 632.7TD's by QB's in their first 3 years.

Pro-rated to 48 games, Stafford would have 99 TD's.
So Dalton has 80 TDs compared with the 60s for everyone else on that list but the list has only 5 QBs on it. What are you trying to prove? I'm legitimately confused.
Sorry that I didn't have time to explain when posting that. I only showed the QB's going back to 2008. Peyton is at the top of that list if you include all QB's. It didn't make sense to include the QB's from other eras.

 
Second, how many NFL teams are definitively better off at QB moving forward than is Cincinatti?
I'd ball park more than one third of them. Maybe half. I'd argue I'd rather have several others in the same tier as him too. I'd be surprised if I have Dalton in my top 20 among current QB's.
I'd love to see a list of 20 QBs you'd prefer to start an NFL franchise with over Andy Dalton.

 
Second, how many NFL teams are definitively better off at QB moving forward than is Cincinatti?
I'd ball park more than one third of them. Maybe half. I'd argue I'd rather have several others in the same tier as him too. I'd be surprised if I have Dalton in my top 20 among current QB's.

He's Matt Schaub two...three...four years ago. Houston started losing their talent due to the cap then the whole thing fell apart. Unless Dalton pulls a 180 the same thing will happen in Cincy. It's already started as they lost Michael Johnson and Andrew Hawkins this year. If they pay Dalton then some combo of Burfict, Marvin Jones, Gresham, Leon Hall, Andre Smith, Andre Whitworth, etc. will go.

They will pay AJ and have already paid Atkins and Dunlap. Not enough cash to go around to pay Dalton and keep most of the others. The increasing cap may open up room for one of them, but any more? Probably not.
Maybe he's just Schaub but Dalton was 26 last year, the same age Schaub was his first year in Houston. QB's even as good as Schaub in his prime aren't easy to find so even if that's Dalton's ceiling they have to pay him.

 
Second, how many NFL teams are definitively better off at QB moving forward than is Cincinatti?
I'd ball park more than one third of them. Maybe half. I'd argue I'd rather have several others in the same tier as him too. I'd be surprised if I have Dalton in my top 20 among current QB's.
I'd love to see a list of 20 QBs you'd prefer to start an NFL franchise with over Andy Dalton.
Brady

Tannehill

Manziel

Roethlisberger

Flacco

Luck

Rivers

A Smith

Manning

RG3

Eli

Romo

Foles

Stafford

Cutler

Rodgers

Bridgewater

Brees

Newton

Ryan

Wilson

Kaepernick

Ended up with 22. I'd lump Dalton in with Palmer, Bradford, Glennon, Hoyer, Geno, Locker, Bortles, Derek Carr, Mallett, and Garopollo on my want list. I have preferences among that group, but they aren't strong ones vs. Dalton. The above ones are strong.

 
Second, how many NFL teams are definitively better off at QB moving forward than is Cincinatti?
I'd ball park more than one third of them. Maybe half. I'd argue I'd rather have several others in the same tier as him too. I'd be surprised if I have Dalton in my top 20 among current QB's.

He's Matt Schaub two...three...four years ago. Houston started losing their talent due to the cap then the whole thing fell apart. Unless Dalton pulls a 180 the same thing will happen in Cincy. It's already started as they lost Michael Johnson and Andrew Hawkins this year. If they pay Dalton then some combo of Burfict, Marvin Jones, Gresham, Leon Hall, Andre Smith, Andre Whitworth, etc. will go.

They will pay AJ and have already paid Atkins and Dunlap. Not enough cash to go around to pay Dalton and keep most of the others. The increasing cap may open up room for one of them, but any more? Probably not.
Maybe he's just Schaub but Dalton was 26 last year, the same age Schaub was his first year in Houston. QB's even as good as Schaub in his prime aren't easy to find so even if that's Dalton's ceiling they have to pay him.
I don't think Schaub was ever any good. He was cropped up by superior talent around him. When the talent got too expensive for Houston to retain the real Schaub stood up.

 
Second, how many NFL teams are definitively better off at QB moving forward than is Cincinatti?
I'd ball park more than one third of them. Maybe half. I'd argue I'd rather have several others in the same tier as him too. I'd be surprised if I have Dalton in my top 20 among current QB's.
I'd love to see a list of 20 QBs you'd prefer to start an NFL franchise with over Andy Dalton.
BradyTannehill

Manziel

Roethlisberger

Flacco

Luck

Rivers

A Smith

Manning

RG3

Eli

Romo

Foles

Stafford

Cutler

Rodgers

Bridgewater

Brees

Newton

Ryan

Wilson

Kaepernick

Ended up with 22. I'd lump Dalton in with Palmer, Bradford, Glennon, Hoyer, Geno, Locker, Bortles, Derek Carr, Mallett, and Garopollo on my want list. I have preferences among that group, but they aren't strong ones vs. Dalton. The above ones are strong.
Yeah, if you genuinely believe that non-elite rookie prospects and much older proven mediocrities carry more NFL EV than Andy Dalton moving forward, we're not going to be able to have a meaningful discussion. Eli Manning? Alex Smith? Ryan Tannehill? Joe Flacco? Jay Cutler? Those guys are definitively more valuable moving forward than Andy Dalton? Come on man...

 
Second, how many NFL teams are definitively better off at QB moving forward than is Cincinatti?
I'd ball park more than one third of them. Maybe half. I'd argue I'd rather have several others in the same tier as him too. I'd be surprised if I have Dalton in my top 20 among current QB's.
I'd love to see a list of 20 QBs you'd prefer to start an NFL franchise with over Andy Dalton.
BradyTannehill

Manziel

Roethlisberger

Flacco

Luck

Rivers

A Smith

Manning

RG3

Eli

Romo

Foles

Stafford

Cutler

Rodgers

Bridgewater

Brees

Newton

Ryan

Wilson

Kaepernick

Ended up with 22. I'd lump Dalton in with Palmer, Bradford, Glennon, Hoyer, Geno, Locker, Bortles, Derek Carr, Mallett, and Garopollo on my want list. I have preferences among that group, but they aren't strong ones vs. Dalton. The above ones are strong.
Yeah, if you genuinely believe that non-elite rookie prospects and much older proven mediocrities carry more NFL EV than Andy Dalton moving forward, we're not going to be able to have a meaningful discussion. Eli Manning? Alex Smith? Ryan Tannehill? Joe Flacco? Jay Cutler? Those guys are definitively more valuable moving forward than Andy Dalton? Come on man...
Eli, Flacco, and Smith have all done things Dalton has not - stepped up and played big in December/January, when the games matter. Dalton has not. I don't think either of those 3 are any more skilled than Dalton, but if you're asking me who to take on my team to lead me to a playoff victory I am taking the other 3 without hesitation.

I think Cincy is a better team with Tannehill as their QB. Plus they have three more cost controlled years to figure out if he is the guy whereas Dalton has just one.

I had difficulty with Cutler. He was #22. If he slid into the Dalton tier I wouldn't fight it. I prefer him because he has stepped up in big spots before, but he is maddening and has not been successful enough to justify the headaches.

And if you'd rather have 1 more cheap year of Dalton then having to pay out the nose than five cost controlled years of Manziel and Bridgewater then I think you're nuts. That said, I am more optimistic than just about everyone on Bridgewater and based on your response I assume you're anti Manziel. I'm neither, but am going to enjoy the ride. I think there's just as great of a chance of him thriving as there is him flaming out. I'd rather do that than be stuck in purgatory like I would be with Dalton.

 
The problem with QB's right now is there is no middle ground on second contracts. They either franchise money like Flacco, Cutler and Kaep just did or you let them walk and start with someone new. Smart teams extend their QB before a new contract becomes an issue because they know big QB contracts can weigh down a team.
you're dead on. Flacco didn't deserve Flacco money and Dalton certainly doesn't deserve it either. He's a middle of the road QB and should get a middle of the road deal.
The reality of the situation, though, is that starting over at QB when you are a legitimate playoff team just really doesn't make a ton of sense. The chances of Dalton / Kaepernick / Cutler / etc going on a Flacco-esque hot streak and making a playoff run is likely greater than that of hitting on a rookie replacement. And GMs stick around longer by playing it safe with "good" than by trying to roll the dice looking for "great" and possibly setting the franchise back for years if they crap out.
Agreed...it's a tough spot because he's "good" but is he good enough? I don't think the Bengals know either...if they did I don't think they would've so publicly discussed their plan to take the ball out of his hands. If you have your franchise QB you don't do/say that. The problem is they are at contract time and they need to make the big decision which can potentially impact the salary cap in a big way for years and limit what they can pay players going forward. Right now they are like Seattle and SF where they have QBs on rookie contracts so they can spend money in other spots. When you pay your QB $60 mill guaranteed like SF did it's going to impact your ability to pay others.

 
Eli, Flacco, and Smith have all done things Dalton has not - stepped up and played big in December/January, when the games matter. Dalton has not.
If Dalton doesn't get a playoff win once he's become an 8 year vet, you'd have a point in comparison with Smith.

 
Eli, Flacco, and Smith have all done things Dalton has not - stepped up and played big in December/January, when the games matter. Dalton has not.
If Dalton doesn't get a playoff win once he's become an 8 year vet, you'd have a point in comparison with Smith.
These two games stick out

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2014010400/2013/POST18/chiefs@colts#menu=highlights&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012011401/2011/POST19/saints@49ers#menu=highlights&tab=recap

Dalton has had three chances in playoff games and all three of them have gone absolutely terribly. Same can be said for just about all of his December games too.

Until he plays well, or even average, when the games matter I'm not interested in him being my guy.

 
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Eli, Flacco, and Smith have all done things Dalton has not - stepped up and played big in December/January, when the games matter. Dalton has not.
If Dalton doesn't get a playoff win once he's become an 8 year vet, you'd have a point in comparison with Smith.
These two games stick outhttp://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2014010400/2013/POST18/chiefs@colts#menu=highlights&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012011401/2011/POST19/saints@49ers#menu=highlights&tab=recap

Dalton has had three chances in playoff games and all three of them have gone absolutely terribly. Same can be said for just about all of his December games too.

Until he plays well, or even average, when the games matter I'm not interested in him being my guy.
Man, I really hate doing this.

Peyton Manning - first 3 playoff games

0 wins 3 losses

50 for 105 47.6% completions. 186.0 ypg passing 5.31 ypa. 1 TD 2 INTs

And no , I am not arguing that Dalton is equivalent to Manning. Just pointing out that by your criteria Manning would be sitting near the bottom of your list.

 
Eli, Flacco, and Smith have all done things Dalton has not - stepped up and played big in December/January, when the games matter. Dalton has not.
If Dalton doesn't get a playoff win once he's become an 8 year vet, you'd have a point in comparison with Smith.
These two games stick outhttp://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2014010400/2013/POST18/chiefs@colts#menu=highlights&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012011401/2011/POST19/saints@49ers#menu=highlights&tab=recap

Dalton has had three chances in playoff games and all three of them have gone absolutely terribly. Same can be said for just about all of his December games too.

Until he plays well, or even average, when the games matter I'm not interested in him being my guy.
Man, I really hate doing this.

Peyton Manning - first 3 playoff games

0 wins 3 losses

50 for 105 47.6% completions. 186.0 ypg passing 5.31 ypa. 1 TD 2 INTs

And no , I am not arguing that Dalton is equivalent to Manning. Just pointing out that by your criteria Manning would be sitting near the bottom of your list.
Every situation is different. Manning's case isn't near the same as Dalton's. IIRC Manning's defenses were not good and at that time his surrounding talent offense was mostly average. It took a while for the control freak Manning to find his playoff zen. I don't think he ever really did actually. He's just that special of a leader though. His teams are always built completely around him. He welcomes the pressure, and has had mixed results, but take him out of the equation and...well, 2011.

Dalton is surrounded by one of the best teams in the league. He has been handed relatively soft playoff matchups. With superior weapons at his disposal and a scheme that relies on strong defense and a balanced offense all he really has to do is manage them through the game and mix in a couple of difference making plays and the game is there's. Instead he has completely folded, and it's gotten worse year over year. You could see the team give up as he threw the game away last year. Did you ever see that with Manning? I sure didn't.

 
Eli, Flacco, and Smith have all done things Dalton has not - stepped up and played big in December/January, when the games matter. Dalton has not.
If Dalton doesn't get a playoff win once he's become an 8 year vet, you'd have a point in comparison with Smith.
These two games stick outhttp://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2014010400/2013/POST18/chiefs@colts#menu=highlights&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012011401/2011/POST19/saints@49ers#menu=highlights&tab=recap

Dalton has had three chances in playoff games and all three of them have gone absolutely terribly. Same can be said for just about all of his December games too.

Until he plays well, or even average, when the games matter I'm not interested in him being my guy.
Man, I really hate doing this.

Peyton Manning - first 3 playoff games

0 wins 3 losses

50 for 105 47.6% completions. 186.0 ypg passing 5.31 ypa. 1 TD 2 INTs

And no , I am not arguing that Dalton is equivalent to Manning. Just pointing out that by your criteria Manning would be sitting near the bottom of your list.
but you can't look at things in a vacuum like that. Stats are great and all but you have to look at the teams that surrounded these players and the roles these players have/had within those teams. I think you can put nearly any starting QB in the NFL on Cincy last year and they'd have a winning record. They may not have won the division but in the weak AFC with that defense and surrounding talent they would've been .500 at worst. Manning was the team on those horrible Colts team while Dalton is a cog in the machine.

 
Again - I want to reiterate to make myself perfectly clear since I seem to have done a poor job the first time.

I am not proposing that Dalton is the second coming of Manning. I am just saying that the criteria for measuring Dalton vs his peers using playoff success as the primary factor might be pretty flawed.

And I know you guys have to get into details to debunk any Dalton vs Manning playoff record, but if you want to do that then don't forget the following; No one I know of is stating that Dalton is an elite QB among the current group of players. An argument can be made that Manning may be the greatest QB ever to have played the game.

 
Again - I want to reiterate to make myself perfectly clear since I seem to have done a poor job the first time.

I am not proposing that Dalton is the second coming of Manning. I am just saying that the criteria for measuring Dalton vs his peers using playoff success as the primary factor might be pretty flawed.

And I know you guys have to get into details to debunk any Dalton vs Manning playoff record, but if you want to do that then don't forget the following; No one I know of is stating that Dalton is an elite QB among the current group of players. An argument can be made that Manning may be the greatest QB ever to have played the game.
I don't really care what any qb did on any other team and what their records were whether they had future success/failure, it's completely irrelevant. I don't care how many wins or tds he's thrown vs. any other 3 year players. I'm a stats guy but there's so much that go into those numbers...from a FF POV he's been a success but when I'm discussing him I have my NFL hat on.

I look at him on his team vs. the teams he plays and I make my judgements.

 
Again - I want to reiterate to make myself perfectly clear since I seem to have done a poor job the first time.

I am not proposing that Dalton is the second coming of Manning. I am just saying that the criteria for measuring Dalton vs his peers using playoff success as the primary factor might be pretty flawed.

And I know you guys have to get into details to debunk any Dalton vs Manning playoff record, but if you want to do that then don't forget the following; No one I know of is stating that Dalton is an elite QB among the current group of players. An argument can be made that Manning may be the greatest QB ever to have played the game.
The playoff example carries over into the regular season too. He has games in which he puts up gaudy numbers, but they're almost always against inferior opponents. Whenever they play a good team they either get beaten or have to win a low scoring game. He's not shown any development, it's been the same thing since year one. Last year's game against San Diego may have been the worst of all the bad.

 

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