Chaka
Footballguy
I think you're missing the part where we have confirmed Williams is the #1 RB in Green Bay.
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RB Jamaal Williams, NO (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter SaintsInDome2006
- Start date
Interseptopus
Footballguy
he is a glorified James Starks.
He was the best blocker last year, but Jones made that his #1 priority in the offseason.
You're also missing that Jamaal Williams runs with concrete shoes on
Also I think you have the wrong back in terms of who Rodgers likes more
When Rodgers speaks, I listen
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TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
My understanding though of pro (and perhaps all levels of) football is that it’s the coach and not the quarterback who decides who plays...no? So...like at the very least, what Rodgers said last year vs what McCarthy said last week works to Williams advantage. Plus, didn’t Rodgers say those things prior to a Jones getting suspended for the first two games?
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
suspension doesnt matter in the least.
I always find it entertaining the amount of stock people put in coach speak.
What is he supposed to say?
"Yeah Ty has trouble staying healthy, Jamaal runs as if hes playing in mud, and Aaron's suspended for the first two games and had trouble last year protecting the QB... were ####ed"
I dont want to say never, because I'm sure one of my bigger fans will find some obscure quote from a coach at some point, but I personally have never seen a coach tell it how it is when it's a negative situation. especially McCarthy. it's always been next man up
Even Brett Hundley. McCarthy says "I believe in Hundley" Are we to believe that Hundley is better? if you have a pair of eyes you know that's not true. Even after Hundley played terrible McCarthy took the blame, and never once bad mouthed his QB to the press (As it should be).
So he is either
1. Lying about one of them (or both). who can tell and who wants to trust the guy if hes a liar?
or 2. he is telling the truth about both. In that case, how can we trust his evaluation of talent if he truly thinks Hundley is a good QB.
ETA: by all means go all in on William's. By now theres no changing anyone's minds.
I think theres a greater chance GB drafts a RB in round 1 or 2 next year than Williams earning and keeping the RB1 spot.
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TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Interseptopus
Footballguy
was being facetious, i was referencing those who can't see the forest through the trees and are more concerned about being right about tiny details rather than discussing the big picture... but if that's all you got, then I take it we're done here.
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TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Lighten up Francis...so was I.
Don’t know why an Aaron Rodgers anecdote from a year ago told from the perspective of the person receiving the praise is more valid than what MM said this week about a player whose snap count he ultimately controls, but OK.
Chaka
Footballguy
When did McCarthy name Williams the starting RB? That's all that matters. Everything else McCarthy says is coach speak and should be taken with a grain of salt.
And @Dr. Dan you seem to have a huge crush on Jones. Seriously, anyone challenging his talent or your perception of his place in the Packers pecking order is a real dog whistle for you. Try to remember it's just magic football.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I am a fan. However I think chances are better GB crafts a RB and/or signs a FA ( Yeldon maybe) to be the lead back next year.
These RBs are Ted Thompsons. Gutekunst may or may not like them.
I just think it's interesting that we are supposed to believe coach speak on a RB who has largely been meh this preseason when that same coach talks up Brett Hundley, especially when Hundley is very possibly cut. I'm all about looking at concrete facts between these three RBs. I hope one has a top 10 season. I hope its Williams, because I do think he is the better pass blocker still and Rodgers is this team. Hes not the best runner though. I'd love to see my Packers have huge success this year, so I will cheer Williams on, and if I'm wrong about him I will be happy.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Yeah, but isn’t the point in FF to buy low? FFC has him being drafted right behind Rashad Penny (non-PPR). This is a guy who in the last half of his rookie year put up 746 YFS/5...with Brett Hundley at QB.
Are we trying to skate to where the puck is or where it’s going to be?
Chaka
Footballguy
Of course we all want an edge but it's a three horse race and I have seen nothing to suggest there is a leader at this point.
To your point about what you may be missing valuing him at RB30 it's that it will likely be a wasted pick on part of a season long three headed committee.
IMO valuing him anywhere near Penny is a fool's bet.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Is the QB job up for grabs too?
I get coachspeak, but there are different flavors of it. There is coachspeak that occurs ‘in season’ where MM has one option he’s got no choice but to fly with week after week vs accessing a player whose in competition for a job prior to the real games starting.
Is it possible that Rodgers said the same thing to Williams (or something similar), it’s just that Williams didn’t blab about it?
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I'm not talking about Rodgers. and I'm not talking about inseason coach speak. I'm talking about the numerous times since January McCarthy has voiced confidence in Hundley.
If we are going to pick and choose which coach speak we gove weight then theres no point to discussing this further.
Just 3 weeks ago McCarthy was talikg up Hundley, “I believe in Brett, and that’s not just a press-conference statement. He’s got what it takes. He has it in his body, he has it in his mind and he definitely has the heart.”
Funny, he even acknowledges the idea of a "press-conference statement"
Chaka
Footballguy
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
So then in your mind...anything MM says isn’t worth listening to. If that’s your stance, then OK. But, just the same, I don’t think you can place any weight on a self-reported compliment someone receives.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
You keep coming back to that Rodgers statement, yet I've said repeatedly that I am not talking about that. if it allows you to stop bringing it up, I'll say you win that argument.
No, I dont believe a word these coaches say when they never say anything negative. Look at Carroll... one less conference and you walk away thinking they've got 25 pro bowlers.
If McCarthy was asked a question such as, "who has impressed you the most from last year to this year" and he answered Jamaal Williams then sure we should take a look at that. If hes asked "how is Jamaal Williams doing?" then what is McCarthy supposed to say.
That's the big difference here. If McCarthy is the first to bring up Williams in a press conference, then my ears are listening very closely. if it's an answer to a question about a specific player, then I could not care less.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Fair enough...from my POV, Williams likely has the backfield to himself the first two weeks. He was volume based productive with versatility last half of his rookie year. Graded out very highly in pass pro. We’re seeing backfields that support two RB’s when they get elite QB play - something on the table here. Even if it is a ‘three-headed backfield’ it seems like Williams versatility would have him available in more packages and game scenarios.
Whether MM is sleep walking thru a press conference and blowing smoke, it seems generally acknowledged around the Packers that 2018 Jamaal Williams is better all-around than 2017 Jamaal Williams...and he performed pretty solidly as a rookie. It may not have been pretty, but it was productive.
shadrap
Footballguy
Right? What is that even supposed to tell us? Rodgers gave his 3rd string RB a pep talk. Could've been a white lie from Rodgers just to give the rookie confidence. Could've even been the truth, but a lot has happened in the past year. Maybe Rodgers changed his mind. Maybe Rodgers doesn't get to set the depth chart so it didn't matter then and it doesn't matter now.Week 1 can't come soon enough. We desperately need something legitimate to talk about in here.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
All he is doing there is pumping up a third string rookie RB that the team now needs to rely on (at the time) - how is that really meaningful?
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
All these people really tying their fantasy hitch to a RB that’s less elusive than Rob Kelley? Good luck. Hope for the same level of volume based production weeks 1 and 2, then I’d be putting out feelers.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Don’t draft him in the 2nd round...but he’s still a 6th round ADP. Is it possible that the presence of Aaron Rodgers helps Williams improve on the elusive metric? And are you saying that a kid is what he is once he puts rookie years stats out?
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
He had one run over 15 yards last year including preseason... and including this years preseason. The only thing separating him from Rob Kelley is his receiving ability. Yes, he is what he is. He can’t put on speed because he already came in the league at 212. There is no weight to lose to add burst. This isn’t a Lev Bell situation.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
This seems like a poor thing to base your FF strategy on. Am I the only one who remembers the Jermichael Finley hype train? Rodgers threw all kinds of coal into that furnace.
Nothing to do with JW but Kelley was actually quite elusive in his rookie year, 2nd in the league behind Ajayi
No. Not even possible. I think the Finley hype train was fantasy football milestone. We will ask people in the near future if they started playing FF before or after the Finley hype train. Hard to believe the Finley hype train was only shortly after the Jahvid best hype train and slightly before the Christine Michael hype train.
I'm not a believer at his ADP.
---Ty is the best pass blocking back on the team, as well as the best receiving back on the team. I know it's a big "IF" but if he's healthy it's a flow blown committee regardless of who plays the early downs (Williams or Jones). That automatically caps the upside of the early-down back.
--Aaron Jones showed he will run circles around Williams when he's healthy. The guy just has a knack for finding the open whole and exploding through it.
All of this leads me to believe that I'd prefer TY at his adp (in PPR, 13th+ round), then prefer Jones (in the 9th/10th), and skip on Williams all together.
---Ty is the best pass blocking back on the team, as well as the best receiving back on the team. I know it's a big "IF" but if he's healthy it's a flow blown committee regardless of who plays the early downs (Williams or Jones). That automatically caps the upside of the early-down back.
--Aaron Jones showed he will run circles around Williams when he's healthy. The guy just has a knack for finding the open whole and exploding through it.
All of this leads me to believe that I'd prefer TY at his adp (in PPR, 13th+ round), then prefer Jones (in the 9th/10th), and skip on Williams all together.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
As we're about to start off the 2018 season, I'll just list the reasons why I'd rather have Williams:
- Finished last season as the starter.
- Was drafted before his main competition in the same draft class.
- Appears to have the trust of the team and coaching staff as a 3 down back.
- Dependable, violent running style that should ensure goal line carries.
- Has had injury luck and timing on his side (Best ability is availability yadda yadda).
- All signs point to the starting job this season with a two week showcase to solidify it.
- McCarthy hyped him up in a way that sure sounds like he's expected to be the starter and get a good amount of work.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Their ADPs aren't close. In practice, Williams has been going in the 6th and Jones lasting to the mid 9th or later.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Huh... they took away the automatic dead horse emoticon for that.
Those Tatum Bell days were wonderful. I want to meet the first person to ever state that phrase
mcintyre1
Footballguy
Most ADP lists I've reviewed have him in the 9th round, but if he's going that early I'd probably not be the one to get him. I wouldn't start thinking about it until the 7th round or so if I feel like I struck out on RBs earlier.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I agree. I think Jones' suspension has given some edge to Williams, and risen his ADP, and rightfully so. Jones is out the first 2 weeks, so Williams has a great opportunity to try to establish something. However, the first two opponents are quite difficult, and I wouldn't expect any of the RBs to do much vs them.
This position won't be hashed out (pending injury) until about week 6 IMO. This will very much be an Alex Collins type scenario where the bigger and more predictable value will be in the second half of the season, if there is value. GB has done a great job in recent history not running the ball much at all, which is not a recipe for success in the big scheme of things, but the cupboard has been rather bare since Lacy fattened up and was hurt.
I would definitely take a flier on Williams round 9 or later. The upside is there without a doubt. No surprise, I'd rather take Jones 2 or 3 rounds later. However, this is likely a backfield I'm completely avoiding in redraft largely due to the fact that I am in a very short bench league (5 spots), and I am not sure I could hold a RB until after the first 5 or so games of the season waiting for it to play out. Or maybe I could- it depends on my byes I suppose. I am obviously invested in dynasty.
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TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
I guess I don't understand why a correlation and comparison needs to be so linear. We haven't seen players at any position in the NFL make a leap from one year to the next? From Year 1 to Year 2? Just saying that it's not a 'LeVeon Bell' situation IMO means very little. Not to mention, people tend to forget that Le'Veon Bell's rookie year was actually pretty damn good (13 G 1259 YFS 8 TD's).
And if the only thing separating him from Rob Kelley is his receiving ability...that's a pretty big separation.
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Noah Davis
Footballguy
I traded him + a 1st for Tyreek Hill in a salary cap contract league. Other owner Has Ty Mont. I just don't know how it's going to play out in GB and I don't want to try to pick the good weeks.
massraider
Footballguy
I always ignore any Lev Bell 2nd year comparisons.
I never, in my life, saw a guy look completely different like Lev Bell in his 2nd year. If he was in a different uniform I wouldn't have believed it was the same guy. No idea what he did different, I don't really remember much coverage aside from weight loss, but he was a different person his 2nd year. This is like people bringing up Jerry Rice every time a slow-@** WR hits the combine. Such a crazy outlier that it's really silly to bring it up.
I never, in my life, saw a guy look completely different like Lev Bell in his 2nd year. If he was in a different uniform I wouldn't have believed it was the same guy. No idea what he did different, I don't really remember much coverage aside from weight loss, but he was a different person his 2nd year. This is like people bringing up Jerry Rice every time a slow-@** WR hits the combine. Such a crazy outlier that it's really silly to bring it up.
That's Rotoworld, so his ADP just jumped a round.
massraider
Footballguy
I mean, in redraft, he going around Dion Lewis, Burkhead, Cohen......what's the beef? Seems like a great spot to take him.
Temper expectations, guys. McCarthy has been on record no less than half a dozen times over the years saying he'll never give a feature-back workload to one guy. It burns them out for the playoffs. They just don't need to run a guy into the ground to get wins because they have Rodgers.
In addition, it's not like they're devoid of an amazing 3rd down back. When healthy, TY is a phenomenal pass blocker and catcher out of the backfield. He's going to get plenty of use.
And another point - Rodgers throws in the red zone more than just about any other QB over the last decade. So Williams' TD upside is capped as well.
Packer homer here - and just not seeing the value with him.
In addition, it's not like they're devoid of an amazing 3rd down back. When healthy, TY is a phenomenal pass blocker and catcher out of the backfield. He's going to get plenty of use.
And another point - Rodgers throws in the red zone more than just about any other QB over the last decade. So Williams' TD upside is capped as well.
Packer homer here - and just not seeing the value with him.
Todem
Footballguy
That was near the beginning of my fantasy football time, so the memory is hazy. I remember him as a preseason hype guy, but I thought that hype ramped up quickly and fizzled quickly. It didn't span multiple seasons like Jahvid, Finley, and CMike... did it? Really don't recall.
Pretty silly to compare them when one is dynasty RB17 and the other is RB35. In redraft it is RB19 and RB34. It's like saying Baldwin is ok, but I really prefer OBJ.
But at those prices I'll take JW and the extra draft capital every day. It's flash vs. technique. And questionable offense vs. elite offense. I like Adam Gase, so maybe Miami will turn the corner, but hard to be confident.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Absolutely. The offense has shown it can support a lead back type situation with a trim and in shape Eddie Lacy, but JW doesn't really fit that mold.
Ty is going to surprise a lot of people as many have written him off.
I'm more intrigued in this backfield for dynasty, but not at all in 2018. The potential reward isn't worth the roster spot for me (and no I likely won't be rostering Jones in my short bench league either, although I regretted that last year when he came in and performed like Dalvin Cook for 4 weeks, so that's not a certainty yet)
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