Redskins and the Rooney Rule (1 Viewer)

[fissure man]

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

I dunno. But how awesome is it that we don't have to guess?! Why don't you check the combine results and get back to me with your findings. I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

GTFO of here. Whites have just as much discrimination going against them playing DB and RB as blacks did playing QB 10 years ago.

You just don't hear about it because white folks don't play the race card.

 

[monessen]

Mookie, here were my intentions.

First paragraph------Come Monday, NFL coaches will be fired. Bringing up the Rooney Rule as owners prepare to interview applicants seems timely and more important than, say, whether Justin Forsett will score against Tennessee on Sunday. Yet, when I raised the issue regarding the 'Skins, your basic reply was "nothing to see here, folks, so move on."

Second paragraph----The Irony of Dan Rooney in this entire matter. Rooney, of all people, could not see the potential for head coaching excellence in Dungy. Yes, the Steeler defense had a bad year in '88, but Dungy obviously went on to big things. Rooney's assessment of Dungy's low-key style not translating to the type of disposition vital to overseeing an NFL team was peculiar and erroneous considering that Noll's approach was not dissimilar to Dungy's. In fact, Dungy has often cited Noll as a mentor based on personality and preparation. It could be that Rooney's dissing of Dungy prompted a penance and a different outlook about coaching acumen and possibly race. In '92, for example, the Steelers did not interview Dennis Green, despite Green's pedigree. And Joe Greene, despite his interest in the job and local popularity, was not seriously considered. Cowher, Wannstedt, and Gilbride were on the short list due to their then-statuses as hot coordinators. The fact that Rooney, who'd been part of the old boy network, honchoed the policy now in place is the unusual part and I was attempting to identify why. What I had there was failure to communicate.

 

[Sebowski]

There are no reports of Shanahan being hired yet.

There are no reports of Gray being interviewed yet.

There is nothing to see here yet.

*PFT speculation does not constitute a report*

 

[Summer Wheat]

I have always thought that the 49ers should have a Gay coach.

 

[Chaka]

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

I dunno. But how awesome is it that we don't have to guess?! Why don't you check the combine results and get back to me with your findings. I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

GTFO of here. Whites have just as much discrimination going against them playing DB and RB as blacks did playing QB 10 years ago.

You just don't hear about it because white folks don't play the race card.

Seriously?

 

[Chaka]

I have always thought that the 49ers should have a Gay coach.

Singletary seems pretty happy.

 

[jackdubl]

After reading Woods's post, I think many have misunderstood the intent of the Rooney rule. It was never meant to be a strict rule with teeth, never meant to force owners to hire a particular candidate. It was merely meant to increase the likelihood of black coaches being hired. It has done that and the results are hard to argue with. There were two black head coaches when the rule was created in 2002, there were nine at the transition between last season and this season if you count Herm, Romeo, and Dungy. That implies that the rule has been a great success.

The truth is that we'll never really know if the rule was a success or not. The only way to know is if we could compare the situation now to what would have happened if there was no Rooney rule. And I think that there would have been more Black head coaches hired anyway as more and more Black coaches were getting experience as assistants and college coaches. I think that both on the field and off, NFL owners are going to hire the best personnel to win. But even if that's not true, the rule is irrelevant.

If an owner has something against Black head coaches, he's going to just go through the motions and hire a White guy.

If an owner just wants to win, then he's going to spare no expense and do an exhaustive search to find the right guy regardless of what color they are. The thought that wealthy NFL owners with every resource at their disposal need something as silly as the Rooney rule to discover a strong black candidate is laughable.

Also the fact that Rooney said that Tomlin got the job because of the Rooney rule has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Obviously he is going to say positive stuff about the Rooney rule.

All good points. But I think you give owners a little too much credit. Coaches didn't play black QBs for a long time for mostly the same reasons owners didn't hire black coaches. But you'd figure coaches would put the best talent on the field as well.

Yes, but that problem (i.e., the Black QB one), resolved itself without any such rule. I think that the Black Coach problem would have resolved itself similarly. I think that the Rooney rule just happened to be enacted around the time the coach problem was going to solve itself. But that's just my guess, and I admit that. There's no way we'll ever know for sure.

The Black Coach problem would definitely resolve itself without a Rooney rule, just as the Black QB problem did. In the meantime, Love, Tomlin and others might still be waiting for it to happen. How many black qb's didn't get a shot while they were waiting for the problem to resolve itself? We all know of the success stories, but how many did we not hear about? The necessity of the rule can be questioned, unless you're the one whose career depends on the problem righting itself while you're still a viable candidate.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Mookie, here were my intentions.First paragraph------Come Monday, NFL coaches will be fired. Bringing up the Rooney Rule as owners prepare to interview applicants seems timely and more important than, say, whether Justin Forsett will score against Tennessee on Sunday. Yet, when I raised the issue regarding the 'Skins, your basic reply was "nothing to see here, folks, so move on."Second paragraph----The Irony of Dan Rooney in this entire matter. Rooney, of all people, could not see the potential for head coaching excellence in Dungy. Yes, the Steeler defense had a bad year in '88, but Dungy obviously went on to big things. Rooney's assessment of Dungy's low-key style not translating to the type of disposition vital to overseeing an NFL team was peculiar and erroneous considering that Noll's approach was not dissimilar to Dungy's. In fact, Dungy has often cited Noll as a mentor based on personality and preparation. It could be that Rooney's dissing of Dungy prompted a penance and a different outlook about coaching acumen and possibly race. In '92, for example, the Steelers did not interview Dennis Green, despite Green's pedigree. And Joe Greene, despite his interest in the job and local popularity, was not seriously considered. Cowher, Wannstedt, and Gilbride were on the short list due to their then-statuses as hot coordinators. The fact that Rooney, who'd been part of the old boy network, honchoed the policy now in place is the unusual part and I was attempting to identify why. What I had there was failure to communicate.

Look, I'll admit that my initial post was a bit smug. I just detest this rule. I'm not going to restate my position on forced hiring practices. But as far as your arguement for Dungy goes, do you think they did ok with hiring Cowher? Do you think your example is really all that good of one? I'll give you that Dungy went on to win a ring (two if you count Grudens) but he also coached possibly the greatest regular season QB ever. I just don't believe these things have to be forced. Dungy eventually found his way. I bet Dungy would tell you that he got what he got when it was supposed to happen.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

The necessity of the rule can be questioned, unless you're the one whose career depends on the problem righting itself while you're still a viable candidate.

c.f. - Lewis, Sherm

 

[Yenrub]

I have always thought that the 49ers should have a Gay coach.

Singletary seems pretty happy.

Plus there was the pulling down of the pants and exposing himself in the locker room thing

 

[Godsbrother]

Whisenhunt & Grimm had the inside track for the Steelers HC job when Cowher left. Tomlin was considered a longshot but he nailed the interviews and got the job.

I am not arguing for or against it but it is possible the Rooney Rule could give a minority candidate an opportunity to interview for a HC job they might not have gotten otherwise.

 

[fatness]

There are no reports of Gray being interviewed yet.

Yes there are.

John Wooten, the president of the Fritz Pollard Alliance, the group in charge of monitoring diversity hiring in the NFL, said he spoke with Gray, and Gray confirmed that he interviewed for Zorn's job. Furthermore, Gray spoke at length and described to Wooten the interview process, the questions that were asked and the Redskins' officials who participated in the interview sessions. Defensive coordinator Greg Blache also vouched for the process, according to Wooten.

Washington Post

 

[Yenrub]

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

I dunno. But how awesome is it that we don't have to guess?! Why don't you check the combine results and get back to me with your findings. I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

As someone who is involved with business hiring, forced hiring practices (or the opposite, discrimination based wrongful termination suits) make me sick. This is nothing more than that. No one cries foul for Dungy hand picking his minority replacement and the ensuing circumvention of the Rooney rule.

They aren’t forced to HIRE any oneMy guess would be that Polian named Dungy’s replacement not Dungy but let’s say it was Dungy

Did you have a problem with the Seahawks naming Mora as Homlgren’s replacement?

My only problem with the Mora hire was that Mora is a bad coach. But, I didn't say I had a problem with who was hired. I said that when it's the minority ignoring the rule, nobody says anything. And that says something to me about those who were screaming the loudest. They don't want equality, they want to scream.

So you were ok with the Seahawks circumventing the rule but not ok with the Colts circumventing it?

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

So you were ok with the Seahawks circumventing the rule but not ok with the Colts circumventing it?

I didn't say I had a problem with who was hired. I said that when it's the minority ignoring the rule, nobody says anything. And that says something to me about those who were screaming the loudest. They don't want equality, they want to scream.

 

[Summer Wheat]

Whisenhunt & Grimm had the inside track for the Steelers HC job when Cowher left. Tomlin was considered a longshot but he nailed the interviews and got the job.I am not arguing for or against it but it is possible the Rooney Rule could give a minority candidate an opportunity to interview for a HC job they might not have gotten otherwise.

Tomlin may have nailed the interview, bit Arizona got the better coach. Tomlin walked into a SuperBowl ready team and organization, Whisenhunt went to a team in total chaos.

 

[fissure man]

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

I dunno. But how awesome is it that we don't have to guess?! Why don't you check the combine results and get back to me with your findings. I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

GTFO of here. Whites have just as much discrimination going against them playing DB and RB as blacks did playing QB 10 years ago.

You just don't hear about it because white folks don't play the race card.

Seriously?

Mildy serious.

 

[Chaka]

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

I dunno. But how awesome is it that we don't have to guess?! Why don't you check the combine results and get back to me with your findings. I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

GTFO of here. Whites have just as much discrimination going against them playing DB and RB as blacks did playing QB 10 years ago.

You just don't hear about it because white folks don't play the race card.

Seriously?

Mildy serious.

Seriously?

 

[Shaolin Hangman]

What constitutes a minority?

Would interviewing a Jew satisfy the rule? No

Religious minorities?No.

Would interviewing a person of Hispanic descent still satisfy the rule in California?Yes, or anywhere else.

What about a woman?Yes.

How about a person of mixed race (1/2 white), would you have to interview two of them to satisfy the rule?No.

Say what you want about the rule, it has sped up the inevitable. There will always be cases where a coach has already been picked, regardless of the coach's race. But Mike Tomlin won the Pittsburgh job in the interview, Rooney said it himself, and who know's if he gets that interview without the rule.

I love this reasoning. So Rooney needed to create a rule to force himself to interview a minority candidate?

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

What constitutes a minority?

Would interviewing a Jew satisfy the rule? No

Religious minorities?No.

Would interviewing a person of Hispanic descent still satisfy the rule in California?Yes, or anywhere else.

What about a woman?Yes.

How about a person of mixed race (1/2 white), would you have to interview two of them to satisfy the rule?No.

Say what you want about the rule, it has sped up the inevitable. There will always be cases where a coach has already been picked, regardless of the coach's race. But Mike Tomlin won the Pittsburgh job in the interview, Rooney said it himself, and who know's if he gets that interview without the rule.

I love this reasoning. So Rooney needed to create a rule to force himself to interview a minority candidate?

Reasoning? Wait...I'm in the Rooney Rule thread, correct?

 

[jackdubl]

So you were ok with the Seahawks circumventing the rule but not ok with the Colts circumventing it?

I didn't say I had a problem with who was hired. I said that when it's the minority ignoring the rule, nobody says anything. And that says something to me about those who were screaming the loudest. They don't want equality, they want to scream.

How could the rule have been circumvented if a minority got the job? Seems like if a black guy got hired, the rule must have been followed. Right or wrong, rule doesn't say you must interview a white candidate.

 

[Sebowski]

There are no reports of Gray being interviewed yet.

Yes there are.

John Wooten, the president of the Fritz Pollard Alliance, the group in charge of monitoring diversity hiring in the NFL, said he spoke with Gray, and Gray confirmed that he interviewed for Zorn's job. Furthermore, Gray spoke at length and described to Wooten the interview process, the questions that were asked and the Redskins' officials who participated in the interview sessions. Defensive coordinator Greg Blache also vouched for the process, according to Wooten.

Washington Post

Missed that. Thanks. Surprised they are interviewing head coaches before they nail down the next offensive coordinator.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

So you were ok with the Seahawks circumventing the rule but not ok with the Colts circumventing it?

I didn't say I had a problem with who was hired. I said that when it's the minority ignoring the rule, nobody says anything. And that says something to me about those who were screaming the loudest. They don't want equality, they want to scream.

How could the rule have been circumvented if a minority got the job? Seems like if a black guy got hired, the rule must have been followed. Right or wrong, rule doesn't say you must interview a white candidate.

What's fair about that?

 

[jackdubl]

So you were ok with the Seahawks circumventing the rule but not ok with the Colts circumventing it?

I didn't say I had a problem with who was hired. I said that when it's the minority ignoring the rule, nobody says anything. And that says something to me about those who were screaming the loudest. They don't want equality, they want to scream.

How could the rule have been circumvented if a minority got the job? Seems like if a black guy got hired, the rule must have been followed. Right or wrong, rule doesn't say you must interview a white candidate.

What's fair about that?

It's not fair. I'm sorry, what about the Rooney rule led you to believe it was meant to be fair?

 

[Mr.Pack]

Not a Snyder fan but have no problem with this. As others have stated, the rule is ridiculous and this is to be expected.

Exactly. It's not the first time this has happened, nor will it be the last.

 

[fatness]

Missed that. Thanks. Surprised they are interviewing head coaches before they nail down the next offensive coordinator.

You mean their usual bass-ackwards way of doing it?

 

[fissure man]

Seriously?

We going to dance all night, or are we going to get this argument going? Obviously you disagree, on which part, and why?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I doubt the Rooney Rule did anything to speed up the process of getting more minority head coaches in the NFL, but there's no way to know for sure. We have only one reality, so we can't compare a universe with the Rooney Rule being enacted in 2003 to a universe with the Rooney Rule never being enacted.

Today's coaches, by and large, are yesterday's players. And not all positions are represented equally: more head coaches are former QBs, OLs, or ILBs than, say, cornerbacks or running backs. (Especially QBs.)

Quarterbacks from the 1970s were almost always white, so it shouldn't be too surprising that head coaches in the 1990s were almost always white -- not because of racism in the 1990s but because of racism in the 1960s and 1970s and before.

The color barrier is starting to crumble in coaching a couple decades after it started to crumble at the traditionally white playing positions. That was going to happen in the natural scheme of things with or without the Rooney Rule, IMO. I doubt the Rooney Rule had any real impact in that regard.

Nonetheless, I don't see that the Rooney Rule does any real harm as long as Jerry Gray doesn't mind it.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

So you were ok with the Seahawks circumventing the rule but not ok with the Colts circumventing it?

I didn't say I had a problem with who was hired. I said that when it's the minority ignoring the rule, nobody says anything. And that says something to me about those who were screaming the loudest. They don't want equality, they want to scream.

How could the rule have been circumvented if a minority got the job? Seems like if a black guy got hired, the rule must have been followed. Right or wrong, rule doesn't say you must interview a white candidate.

What's fair about that?

It's not fair. I'm sorry, what about the Rooney rule led you to believe it was meant to be fair?

Oh don't be sorry, this was my initial point. We're good.

 

[Chaka]

Seriously?

We going to dance all night, or are we going to get this argument going? Obviously you disagree, on which part, and why?

The obvious parts, because they are obvious.

 

[fissure man]

Seriously?

We going to dance all night, or are we going to get this argument going? Obviously you disagree, on which part, and why?

The obvious parts, because they are obvious.

OK. Welcome back.

 

[Yenrub]

So you were ok with the Seahawks circumventing the rule but not ok with the Colts circumventing it?

I didn't say I had a problem with who was hired. I said that when it's the minority ignoring the rule, nobody says anything. And that says something to me about those who were screaming the loudest. They don't want equality, they want to scream.

How could the rule have been circumvented if a minority got the job? Seems like if a black guy got hired, the rule must have been followed. Right or wrong, rule doesn't say you must interview a white candidate.

What's fair about that?

It's not fair. I'm sorry, what about the Rooney rule led you to believe it was meant to be fair?

So both teams (Seahawks and Colts) were allowed to avoid the Rooney rule by naming successors to their coaches. One team named a minority and the other didn’t, neither team (as far as I know) got into trouble over naming their new coach.What makes these situations unfair?

 

[fissure man]

So both teams (Seahawks and Colts) were allowed to avoid the Rooney rule by naming successors to their coaches. One team named a minority and the other didn’t, neither team (as far as I know) got into trouble over naming their new coach.What makes these situations unfair?

I think you're allowed to hire somebody within the organization without having to do the Rooney rule thing.

 

[elmanx]

The Black Coach problem would definitely resolve itself without a Rooney rule, just as the Black QB problem did. In the meantime, Love, Tomlin and others might still be waiting for it to happen. How many black qb's didn't get a shot while they were waiting for the problem to resolve itself? We all know of the success stories, but how many did we not hear about? The necessity of the rule can be questioned, unless you're the one whose career depends on the problem righting itself while you're still a viable candidate.

The problem is you have no idea if the Rooney rule really made the problem resolve faster. Nobody does. I think that the problem was not only going to resolve itself, but it was going to resolve itself at the same rate with or without the rule. Read Maurile's post #77 above for a much better explanation than what I provided earlier.

 

[Phlash]

It was obscene (literally, obscene) that in a league where the majority of the players are African-American there were virtually no minority coaches.

The rule was put in to make the issue high-profile enough so that even head-in-the-sand folks like those in this thread might take notice. To that extent it's obviously been a roaring success.

I'll let someone else do the research on minority head coaches before and after the rule, but I think you'll find that the results are black and white.

Ho ho ho aren't you the funny man now.

 

[HeirCoryell]

Here's what I don't understand. Why would Jerry Gray take the interview? Did he really think he had a shot at the job for a second? Did he figure there was no downside to the interview even if he suspected it was a dead end? If the interview is widely viewed as a joke from the start, shouldn't some of the criticism fall on Gray (or other guys like Dennis Green who performed a perfunctory role with Dallas for his friend Jerry Jones so they could hire Parcells?)

Here is the danger in the rule. How many more interviews can Gray go to (without being hired) before he is viewed as the "token" candidate throughout the League and thought of as a joke not only to personnel people but eventually players as well? Denny Green quit going years ago. No matter how much benefit he receives from widening his network as well as increased experience in the interview process, will it outweigh his public perception as someone who is "working for the Man"?

 

[fatness]

How many more interviews can Gray go to (without being hired) before he is viewed as the "token" candidate throughout the League and thought of as a joke not only to personnel people but eventually players as well?

He's been interviewed for 2 NFL head coaching jobs, one last year and one this year.2.Were other coaches thought of as 'not real' candidates after 2 interviews?

 

[Godsbrother]

Whisenhunt & Grimm had the inside track for the Steelers HC job when Cowher left. Tomlin was considered a longshot but he nailed the interviews and got the job.I am not arguing for or against it but it is possible the Rooney Rule could give a minority candidate an opportunity to interview for a HC job they might not have gotten otherwise.

Tomlin may have nailed the interview, bit Arizona got the better coach. Tomlin walked into a SuperBowl ready team and organization, Whisenhunt went to a team in total chaos.

You may be right that Whiz is the better coach -- still too early in either's HC career to make a definitive statement. My point is that Tomlin was a longshot but got the job because he had an opportunity to interview.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

How many more interviews can Gray go to (without being hired) before he is viewed as the "token" candidate throughout the League and thought of as a joke not only to personnel people but eventually players as well?

He's been interviewed for 2 NFL head coaching jobs, one last year and one this year.2.Were other coaches thought of as 'not real' candidates after 2 interviews?

So who was hired in his stead?

 

[Shaolin Hangman]

Whisenhunt & Grimm had the inside track for the Steelers HC job when Cowher left. Tomlin was considered a longshot but he nailed the interviews and got the job.I am not arguing for or against it but it is possible the Rooney Rule could give a minority candidate an opportunity to interview for a HC job they might not have gotten otherwise.

Tomlin may have nailed the interview, bit Arizona got the better coach. Tomlin walked into a SuperBowl ready team and organization, Whisenhunt went to a team in total chaos.

You may be right that Whiz is the better coach -- still too early in either's HC career to make a definitive statement. My point is that Tomlin was a longshot but got the job because he had an opportunity to interview.

 

[trader jake]

This is the natural byproduct of a stupid rule. What did you expect?

This.

 

[fatness]

How many more interviews can Gray go to (without being hired) before he is viewed as the "token" candidate throughout the League and thought of as a joke not only to personnel people but eventually players as well?

He's been interviewed for 2 NFL head coaching jobs, one last year and one this year.2.Were other coaches thought of as 'not real' candidates after 2 interviews?

So who was hired in his stead?

The same guy hired instead of Russ Grimm: Someone Else Only in Gray's case there's only been one interview concluded where he did not get the job. With Grimm there's been more than one, hasn't there? Is Grimm a token candidate?My point is that in griping about the Rooney Rule people are just assuming Jerry Gray fits into a sterotyped "typical minority coach who has no shot and who interviews for every HC vacancy only to satisfy the Rooney Rule." Jerry Gray does not fit that stereotype. He's interviewed for and been turned down for 1 HC job so far. If another team makes a huge last-minute offer for Shanahan and he takes it, who coaches the Redskins next year? Not Gruden. Not Shanahan. Not Holmgren. Gray's got a good resume and good reputation, and has already been interviewed for the job. I'm not saying he'll get it, but he's a legitimate candidate based on his resume.

 

[jackdubl]

The Black Coach problem would definitely resolve itself without a Rooney rule, just as the Black QB problem did. In the meantime, Love, Tomlin and others might still be waiting for it to happen. How many black qb's didn't get a shot while they were waiting for the problem to resolve itself? We all know of the success stories, but how many did we not hear about? The necessity of the rule can be questioned, unless you're the one whose career depends on the problem righting itself while you're still a viable candidate.

The problem is you have no idea if the Rooney rule really made the problem resolve faster. Nobody does. I think that the problem was not only going to resolve itself, but it was going to resolve itself at the same rate with or without the rule. Read Maurile's post #77 above for a much better explanation than what I provided earlier.

Well, let's see. Up until about a week ago there were 9 black head coaches in Division IA college football out of 120 teams. 3 new black coaches were hired at that time, so now the number is 12 out of 120. The current number in the NFL is 6 out of 32 teams. It's also worth pointing out that 3 were fired or retired after last season, so there's been as many as nine over the last two seasons. There were 2 out of 32 teams when the Rooney rule went into effect in 2002.Put another way, in 2002 6.25% of the head coached in the NFL were black. Seven years after the rule went into effect as few as 18.75% and as many as 28.125% of the NFL head coaches were black. In Division IA college football, currently 10% are black and up until a week ago 7.5%. So a much larger percentage of coaches are black in the NFL after the rule was implemented. In that same period of time, college football has remained largely unchanged from the numbers the NFL had before the rule was implemented.I'm sure that won't convince you guys that the rule made it happen any faster, because that would interfere with your pretty picture of the world. And since owners(and colleges, one would assume) are just going to hire the best person for the job regardless of race, as many say in this thread, then it stands to reason that one of two things happened. One, either black coaches have just so happened to become qualified for head coaching jobs at the same time the Rooney rule was implemented, and were unqualified right before it was implemented, or two, that they just weren't getting the oppurtunities and then once they were, the owners found them to be qualified. So then, are they still unqualified to coach in college or are they just getting fewer oppurtunities?

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Look, I'm not really sure how this hiring process works, but I gotta beleive that worthy candidates have every opportunity to network and pimp their wares any number of ways - no matter what the NAACP says. I can't believe there are so many overtly racist people in the NFL as to not give guys with 10 years of NFL coaching experience at the very least the chance for an interview.

I just think the opportunities are there for the taking and that forcing teams to look in certain places is wrong. If you deserve to get your shot, you'll get your shot.

In the case of Gray, isn't it possible that he may not have interviewed well? Is that a possibility in your mind?

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

The Black Coach problem would definitely resolve itself without a Rooney rule, just as the Black QB problem did. In the meantime, Love, Tomlin and others might still be waiting for it to happen. How many black qb's didn't get a shot while they were waiting for the problem to resolve itself? We all know of the success stories, but how many did we not hear about? The necessity of the rule can be questioned, unless you're the one whose career depends on the problem righting itself while you're still a viable candidate.

The problem is you have no idea if the Rooney rule really made the problem resolve faster. Nobody does. I think that the problem was not only going to resolve itself, but it was going to resolve itself at the same rate with or without the rule. Read Maurile's post #77 above for a much better explanation than what I provided earlier.

Well, let's see. Up until about a week ago there were 9 black head coaches in Division IA college football out of 120 teams. 3 new black coaches were hired at that time, so now the number is 12 out of 120. The current number in the NFL is 6 out of 32 teams. It's also worth pointing out that 3 were fired or retired after last season, so there's been as many as nine over the last two seasons. There were 2 out of 32 teams when the Rooney rule went into effect in 2002.Put another way, in 2002 6.25% of the head coached in the NFL were black. Seven years after the rule went into effect as few as 18.75% and as many as 28.125% of the NFL head coaches were black. In Division IA college football, currently 10% are black and up until a week ago 7.5%. So a much larger percentage of coaches are black in the NFL after the rule was implemented. In that same period of time, college football has remained largely unchanged from the numbers the NFL had before the rule was implemented.I'm sure that won't convince you guys that the rule made it happen any faster, because that would interfere with your pretty picture of the world. And since owners(and colleges, one would assume) are just going to hire the best person for the job regardless of race, as many say in this thread, then it stands to reason that one of two things happened. One, either black coaches have just so happened to become qualified for head coaching jobs at the same time the Rooney rule was implemented, and were unqualified right before it was implemented, or two, that they just weren't getting the oppurtunities and then once they were, the owners found them to be qualified. So then, are they still unqualified to coach in college or are they just getting fewer oppurtunities?

So what's the winning percentage of those black coaches?

 

[fatness]

In the case of Gray, isn't it possible that he may not have interviewed well? Is that a possibility in your mind?

That's a possibility with anyone who interviews for any HC job. However, if Gray did not interview well in Detroit, how does that support anything you're saying about the Rooney Rule? I think you're grasping for something to show that Gray's a 'token minority interview' when I don't think there's anything supporting the idea that he is.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

In the case of Gray, isn't it possible that he may not have interviewed well? Is that a possibility in your mind?

That's a possibility with anyone who interviews for any HC job. However, if Gray did not interview well in Detroit, how does that support anything you're saying about the Rooney Rule? I think you're grasping for something to show that Gray's a 'token minority interview' when I don't think there's anything supporting the idea that he is.

I think you want me to call him a token interview, but the fact is I've already said, in this thread no less, that he has an impressive resume and that he deserves a shot. The only thing I disagree with is racially biased forced hiring practices. That's it.

 

[fatness]

OK, thanks for the explanation. I had forgotten that you were not the OP, who made this uninformed statement:

Jerry Gray has supposedly been interviewed, but it is essentially an obligatory action. Snyder simply needed to adhere to the rule and now he is covered. There will be those who say, well, Gray got some experience by virtue of an interview. But he's been to this rodeo before. How much more "experience" does he need from this bogus, courtesy-oriented, going through the motions nonsense? It seems like whenever there is a "done deal" with a particular coach already earmarked for a team, Gray is the designated "go to" token applicant.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

OK, thanks for the explanation. I had forgotten that you were not the OP, who made this uninformed statement:

Jerry Gray has supposedly been interviewed, but it is essentially an obligatory action. Snyder simply needed to adhere to the rule and now he is covered. There will be those who say, well, Gray got some experience by virtue of an interview. But he's been to this rodeo before. How much more "experience" does he need from this bogus, courtesy-oriented, going through the motions nonsense? It seems like whenever there is a "done deal" with a particular coach already earmarked for a team, Gray is the designated "go to" token applicant.

In retrospect (I knew nothing of Jerry Gray at first reading), I agree that was a pretty uninformed statement by the OP.

 

[HeirCoryell]

How many more interviews can Gray go to (without being hired) before he is viewed as the "token" candidate throughout the League and thought of as a joke not only to personnel people but eventually players as well?

He's been interviewed for 2 NFL head coaching jobs, one last year and one this year.2.Were other coaches thought of as 'not real' candidates after 2 interviews?

That's why I asked. Is there some magic number of interviews he can go on before being thought of or labeled as the guy who just goes to meet the quota? Obviously 2 isn't too many but, how many is too many? Nobody knows.

 

[jackdubl]

So what's the winning percentage of those black coaches?

That doesn't have anything to do with the statement that the Rooney rule hasn't changed anything? Sounds like changing the subject.Without checking, I'd guess their winning percentage is pretty good, since a few coaches would pull the average way up. Tomlin, Love, Caldwell, Dungy, Lewis, even Singletary - all done pretty well. Their winning percentage would definitely be higher than white coaches, but that would be a somewhat meaningless stat since there's so many more white coaches and thus more losers.