Restaurant Talk - Modern Rules Of Dining (1 Viewer)

[rockaction]

It's a miracle!

Any continent that celebrates Christmas 365 days a year and once on leap year is okay by me.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Dining is cheaper and they don't ask for a tip and don't rush you off. Often you have to beg for a check. Nowadays in the US they drop it off. "just so you are ready"

Got it. European restaurants are able to offer lower prices, better food with no concern for how many customers they're able to serve. It's a miracle!

I wouldn’t say any restaurant over there doesn’t want to make money but it is a different mindset in most places.

I’m sure you’ve heard the saying “In the U.S. people live to work, in Europe they work to live”. Sure that’s probably not 100% accurate for everyone- but has some truth of course.

 

[General Malaise]

I’m guessing the 90 minute rule is only posted so that if you’re still dawdling for 30 minutes after dinner they can politely tell you to GTFO

Restaurants here should cut their reservations down at least 25%. In Europe by contrast, they are much more relaxed and it is unheard of to rush people through a meal just to seat the next table. Hell, they don't even give you the bill until you ask for it. But here, it's all about how many butts you can serve and how much money you can make.

This seems like the constant refrain about how wonderful Europe is with people spending 4 hours at dinner.
For the US, I don't know "it's all about how many butts you can serve and how much money you can make." From what I can tell, a restaurant is a tough business with ridiculously narrow profit margins. I'm not sure I fault a restaurant for wanting to turn their tables every 2 hours.

My understanding is the same as yours and I don’t blame restaurants at all for imposing a reasonable time limit and, if you have a table during like an NFL Sunday or a UFC fight or something, imposing a minimum cost per hour or something.

Restaurants are there to serve, but also to make money. That’s just how the world works.

I'm not the target audience but places around here that show UFC will often charge a cover to offset the table campers and that seems more than fair to me.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I wouldn’t say any restaurant over there doesn’t want to make money but it is a different mindset in most places.

I’m sure you’ve heard the saying “In the U.S. people live to work, in Europe they work to live”. Sure that’s probably not 100% accurate for everyone- but has some truth of course.

Thanks. I totally get that live to work / work to live concept. It's how we run FBG.

But I see what feels like the average restaurant here in the US hanging on by a thread with razor thin margins. I don't see the average restaurant as greedy or living to work. I see them as trying to survive. And mostly failing as the closure rate is high.

Contrasted with "The better way to run things is serve higher quality food at lower prices with little regard for how many customers you serve" and it just seems odd.

 

[General Malaise]

Dining is cheaper and they don't ask for a tip and don't rush you off. Often you have to beg for a check. Nowadays in the US they drop it off. "just so you are ready"

Got it. European restaurants are able to offer lower prices, better food with no concern for how many customers they're able to serve. It's a miracle!

Now if they could only figure out the modern complexities of "air conditioning".

 

[Da Guru]

When my kids were toddlers we never took them to a place where a bunch of adults were have a nice evening out on a weekend.

Now we have been at higher end places and watch and hear parents wrestling with tired toddlers who don`t want to be there, they are running around. That is on the parents not the restaurant.

Dogs? I love dogs but Not inside, I don`t mind them at outdoor dining. We have a Lab that will sit next to us and it unbothered by other dogs, but I have seen dogs go at it each. So it is not for everyone

Charging for extra ketchup or BBQ sauce bothers me, hate to get nickeled and dimed on everything.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Charging for extra ketchup or BBQ sauce bothers me, hate to get nickeled and dimed on everything.

I think lots of people feel the same. I've always thought the smarter playon this was to just build that cost into the overall price.

Same thing with baggage fees on airlines. But that's another topic.

 

[Drunken knight]

I wouldn’t say any restaurant over there doesn’t want to make money but it is a different mindset in most places.

I’m sure you’ve heard the saying “In the U.S. people live to work, in Europe they work to live”. Sure that’s probably not 100% accurate for everyone- but has some truth of course.

Thanks. I totally get that live to work / work to live concept. It's how we run FBG.

But I see what feels like the average restaurant here in the US hanging on by a thread with razor thin margins. I don't see the average restaurant as greedy or living to work. I see them as trying to survive. And mostly failing as the closure rate is high.

Contrasted with "The better way to run things is serve higher quality food at lower prices with little regard for how many customers you serve" and it just seems odd.

as i have not looked at any books for european restaurants, there must be some other built in cost reductions. perhaps subsidies for leases or whatnot. European dining was the catalyst for me to get into culinary. i found quality/value amazing and wanted to replicate it

 

[bigbottom]

I wouldn’t say any restaurant over there doesn’t want to make money but it is a different mindset in most places.

I’m sure you’ve heard the saying “In the U.S. people live to work, in Europe they work to live”. Sure that’s probably not 100% accurate for everyone- but has some truth of course.

Thanks. I totally get that live to work / work to live concept. It's how we run FBG.

But I see what feels like the average restaurant here in the US hanging on by a thread with razor thin margins. I don't see the average restaurant as greedy or living to work. I see them as trying to survive. And mostly failing as the closure rate is high.

Contrasted with "The better way to run things is serve higher quality food at lower prices with little regard for how many customers you serve" and it just seems odd.

as i have not looked at any books for european restaurants, there must be some other built in cost reductions. perhaps subsidies for leases or whatnot. European dining was the catalyst for me to get into culinary. i found quality/value amazing and wanted to replicate it

I really don’t know how they make the numbers work. In Italy, there’s often only one seating per table for dinner at the nicer restaurants. We had a work dinner at one restaurant and they had to open early for us to have an 8pm seating. We were there until 11:30.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I really don’t know how they make the numbers work. In Italy, there’s often only one seating per table for dinner at the nicer restaurants. We had a work dinner at one restaurant and they had to open early for us to have an 8pm seating. We were there until 11:30.

Thanks. I just don't understand how the economics would work. Maybe they have some sort of government subsidy. Or maybe even more restaurants there go out of business than they do here. Which seems implausible. Most of the discussion just seems like it's missing some key elements as the numbers don't add up.

 

[Joe Bryant]

i found quality/value amazing and wanted to replicate it

Awesome. Can you elaborate on how it went and what you did?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

But I see what feels like the average restaurant here in the US hanging on by a thread with razor thin margins. I don't see the average restaurant as greedy or living to work. I see them as trying to survive. And mostly failing as the closure rate is high.

I wouldn’t call them greedy either - even if the margins weren’t thin. I don’t think it’s a secret that our Country runs that way and I wouldn’t expect a restaurant owner to voluntarily fall behind. My response was a minor point in the difference but one that I think has merits.

 

[massraider]

Do people think "Europe" run restaurants one certain way?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Do people think "Europe" run restaurants one certain way?

Not all of course. But it's a fairly common refrain to hear about how high quality/low cost/no rush they are.

 

[Drunken knight]

i found quality/value amazing and wanted to replicate it

Awesome. Can you elaborate on how it went and what you did?

I believe i have shared on here at one point or another.. i'll try to find it or retell... running errands today.

Do people think "Europe" run restaurants one certain way?

i am a systems guy... i have always liked to find efficiencies/better sops... it may vary from country to country, but there has to be "French," Italian," "swiss" formula for success

 

[Don Quixote]

I really don’t know how they make the numbers work. In Italy, there’s often only one seating per table for dinner at the nicer restaurants. We had a work dinner at one restaurant and they had to open early for us to have an 8pm seating. We were there until 11:30.

Thanks. I just don't understand how the economics would work. Maybe they have some sort of government subsidy. Or maybe even more restaurants there go out of business than they do here. Which seems implausible. Most of the discussion just seems like it's missing some key elements as the numbers don't add up.

I’m sure some other factors too, but wine culture may help over there, as profit margins on wine a lot greater than food.

 

[massraider]

Do people think "Europe" run restaurants one certain way?

Not all of course. But it's a fairly common refrain to hear about how high quality/low cost/no rush they are.

The original article you linked to was from a UK paper, and they have been enforcing time limits in nice European restaurants for close to a decade that I am aware of.

So people talking about no time limits in 'Europe', I don't get it, when this is demonstrably false.

 

[Drunken knight]

i found quality/value amazing and wanted to replicate it

Awesome. Can you elaborate on how it went and what you did?

can't find it, but here is a "short" version...

both parents are from New York. Uncle on my mother’s side owns about 8 restaurants. Since about 10, I liked playing with different flavors. In high school I would spend a decent amount of my summer with him. I would work about 20 hrs and he and I had a blast going to ball games and fishing. I was a prep , but on slow nights I would ask the cooks to show me how to make the dishes. Loved it.

travel heavily influenced me. Loved how enmeshed culture is with food. In adulthood, really enjoyed hosting/cooking. Trips to Europe pushed me over the top. Felt very connected to the alps... wanted to open an inn/restaurant in Austria or Switzerland. Found a culinary school in vail. Made the move in 01. Loved it.... cooking and skiing.

we had a daughter and chef hours were not very family friendly so i moved to purchasing. I became the F&B the purchaser for a resort in vail for about 4 years. In 11, my wife had a very nice offer back here in the bay area and we moved back. the first few years i started a personal chef business. It was wonderful. i only took events from family and friends up to about 50 people. This was my favorite cooking experience. Much more personal and intimate. A purchasing position became available to me at a prestigious resort in Napa. I developed the department and moved on after about 4 years. I now have been consulting in Sonoma County for 5+ years. I really like it (minus Covid)

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I really don’t know how they make the numbers work. In Italy, there’s often only one seating per table for dinner at the nicer restaurants. We had a work dinner at one restaurant and they had to open early for us to have an 8pm seating. We were there until 11:30.

Thanks. I just don't understand how the economics would work. Maybe they have some sort of government subsidy. Or maybe even more restaurants there go out of business than they do here. Which seems implausible. Most of the discussion just seems like it's missing some key elements as the numbers don't add up.

Overhead is MUCH lower.

 

[massraider]

I now have been consulting in Sonoma County for 5+ years.

You focus on Beverage/wine programs, or all of FOH?

 

[massraider]

Thanks. I just don't understand how the economics would work. Maybe they have some sort of government subsidy. Or maybe even more restaurants there go out of business than they do here. Which seems implausible. Most of the discussion just seems like it's missing some key elements as the numbers don't add up.

Overhead is MUCH lower.

Yeah, economics are completely different.

Never ending supply of cooks willing to work for nothing to build their CV,
Less food waste. They have smaller menus, and know exactly how many people they will serve every day.
Profit on wine is another order of magnitude. Almost every table in there is getting whacked on a menu paired wine tasting at least, and a table that is throwing down on the wine can spend 10 grand on wine, meaning thousands in wine profits on one table.

 

[Drunken knight]

I now have been consulting in Sonoma County for 5+ years.

You focus on Beverage/wine programs, or all of FOH?

mostly boh, p&l, menu planning/design, marketing, waste management, general efficiencies and best practices for the restaurant/hotel/bar

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Thanks. I just don't understand how the economics would work. Maybe they have some sort of government subsidy. Or maybe even more restaurants there go out of business than they do here. Which seems implausible. Most of the discussion just seems like it's missing some key elements as the numbers don't add up.

Overhead is MUCH lower.

Yeah, economics are completely different.

Never ending supply of cooks willing to work for nothing to build their CV,
Less food waste. They have smaller menus, and know exactly how many people they will serve every day.
Profit on wine is another order of magnitude. Almost every table in there is getting whacked on a menu paired wine tasting at least, and a table that is throwing down on the wine can spend 10 grand on wine, meaning thousands in wine profits on one table.

Don’t forget the lease. Huge difference.

 

[Scoresman]

My guess for European restaurant somehow being able to survive with how they operate is simply that everything must be cheaper. The building the restaurant is in is probably 600 years old and owned by the restaurant owners' family for decades or more for example, so maybe there are fewer landlords asking for the max possible rent. Also, stuff is so much closer together over there, ingredients dont have to travel far and are probably cheaper as a result.

I don't know how else they can do it.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think the lack of tipping helps explain why European servers are less interested in getting you out the door. It makes their lives easier if you want to sit and dawdle.

 

[General Malaise]

Do they have outrageous Healthcare costs in Europe? Insurance costs?

Just asking, I dunno....never been.

 

[General Malaise]

My guess for European restaurant somehow being able to survive with how they operate is simply that everything must be cheaper. The building the restaurant is in is probably 600 years old and owned by the restaurant owners' family for decades or more for example, so maybe there are fewer landlords asking for the max possible rent. Also, stuff is so much closer together over there, ingredients dont have to travel far and are probably cheaper as a result.

I don't know how else they can do it.

Might some even live above the restaurant below?

 

[NutterButter]

Charging for extra ketchup or BBQ sauce bothers me, hate to get nickeled and dimed on everything.

Places charge for extra ketchup? That would happen to me once. Just once.

 

[Eephus]

I think the lack of tipping helps explain why European servers are less interested in getting you out the door. It makes their lives easier if you want to sit and dawdle.

It's purely a cultural difference in my experience. Americans are a notoriously impatient people and our customs have evolved from that.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I think the lack of tipping helps explain why European servers are less interested in getting you out the door. It makes their lives easier if you want to sit and dawdle.

That would make sense for the server if they have no incentive to increase sales for the restaurant.

 

[Eephus]

That would make sense for the server if they have no incentive to increase sales for the restaurant.

You're thinking like an American

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Do people think "Europe" run restaurants one certain way?

Yeah I lived in Germany as a dirt poor student and odd -job merchant for 18 months and never noticed any difference. It wasn’t until I lived in Holland and went out to eat with a friend’s family several times that I experienced the 4 hour dinner event. I don’t view it as any better or worse than how we do dinner here, just different and somewhat hard to get used to for anyone coming from one culture and experiencing the other.

 

[Chemical X]

Do they have outrageous Healthcare costs in Europe? Insurance costs?

Just asking, I dunno....never been.

italy is nationalized with a small annual buy in amount. then 100% covered. i am still waiting on a bill for my wife’s emergency surgery. i don’t think one is forthcoming.

 

[Chemical X]

so remember, most restaurants are operating at 0km, food is sourced locally without middlemen and there are no us foods trucks driving around. properties are likely family owned. lunch remains the biggest meal in italy, places close down for 3 hours to take lunch, so dinner is a smaller meal. most places i go to are all family, which is where i think costs are saved. they are small, like 10-15 tables small. the slow dinner experience is also due to maybe there being 1 waiter. the places aren’t caverns with 100 tables and staff all over. menus are much smaller. pasta is made in house. a dining experience in italy is seen as a social event. manners there say to respect the time and allow people to sit for how long they want, which is why they never bring a bill.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The original article you linked to was from a UK paper, and they have been enforcing time limits in nice European restaurants for close to a decade that I am aware of.

So people talking about no time limits in 'Europe', I don't get it, when this is demonstrably false.

Thanks. I was mostly just responding to the folks here fawning over how aweseome it is in Europe where you take all the time you want and "have to beg" for the server to bring a check.

 

[Joe Bryant]

That would make sense for the server if they have no incentive to increase sales for the restaurant.

You're thinking like an American

I'm thinking like someone that has to cover the rent and make payroll.

 

[bigbottom]

The original article you linked to was from a UK paper, and they have been enforcing time limits in nice European restaurants for close to a decade that I am aware of.

So people talking about no time limits in 'Europe', I don't get it, when this is demonstrably false.

Thanks. I was mostly just responding to the folks here fawning over how aweseome it is in Europe where you take all the time you want and "have to beg" for the server to bring a check.

I spend a lot of time in Italy on business, and honestly, I wish the meals were shorter. Getting back to my hotel from dinner at close to midnight is brutal when you’re jet lagged and working all day. So not really awesome per se or fawning in my book.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The original article you linked to was from a UK paper, and they have been enforcing time limits in nice European restaurants for close to a decade that I am aware of.

So people talking about no time limits in 'Europe', I don't get it, when this is demonstrably false.

Thanks. I was mostly just responding to the folks here fawning over how aweseome it is in Europe where you take all the time you want and "have to beg" for the server to bring a check.

I spend a lot of time in Italy on business, and honestly, I wish the meals were shorter. Getting back to my hotel from dinner at close to midnight is brutal when you’re jet lagged and working all day. So not really awesome per se or fawning in my book.

Talking about the "In Europe by contrast, they are much more relaxed and it is unheard of to rush people through a meal just to seat the next table. Hell, they don't even give you the bill until you ask for it. But here, it's all about how many butts you can serve and how much money you can make" from other posters.

 

[Eephus]

Talking about the "In Europe by contrast, they are much more relaxed and it is unheard of to rush people through a meal just to seat the next table. Hell, they don't even give you the bill until you ask for it. But here, it's all about how many butts you can serve and how much money you can make" from other posters.

That's deeply ingrained in European culture that goes back generations. Americans gobble by comparison which promotes the desire among restaurants to turn a table over three times during a dinner service.

I don't think tipping servers has anything to do with this either way. It's just another local custom. Maybe I'm just an easy mark but I've had more good service than bad wherever I've gone.

 

[culdeus]

In Europe they have smaller menus for sure. Many lunches are basically a fixed price deal for the same thing. None of the giant laminated menus. It's not 1 server for 6 covers it's more 1 for 20. And it works fine.

Sysco and us foods own our experience as much as anything these days.

 

[Terminalxylem]

As others have said, being considerate of other patrons, and the restaurant staff, are paramount. So I don’t favor imposing most of these rules.

The two I have an opinion on are dress code (no) and time limit (yes).

I live in an informal place, and shorts/hats/slippers are accepted nearly everywhere. None of that stuff detracts from my dining experience. FWIW, I don’t like the pretense of “dressing up” in nearly any situation.

As far as time limits, I‘m impatient. I start to get annoyed when people chit-chat before looking at the menu, and the server needs to come back because someone hasn’t/can’t make up their mind. I also don’t like the custom of taking drink orders prior to ordering the meal.

It should take no more than a couple minutes to decide what food and beverage one wants, and it’s typically easy to review the menu even before you are seated. Big fan of QR code menus/orders to streamline this process.

Ninety minutes is more than enough time to accomplish a relaxed meal imo. The one exception may be tapas and sushi places, where it isn’t always clear how many dishes you‘ll eat a priori, and multiple orders are often placed over the course of the meal.

Somewhat related, I can do without all the cork-sniffing, glass swishing, and waiting for approval post first-sip that goes with wine drinking. Just order and drink it, like any other beverage.

I am NOT a wine guy, so this may be totally appropriate wine behavior, but I was at a dinner with someone who did the wine-sniffing, sip thing. And then sent the bottle back. I was horrified, but perhaps this is appropriate and acceptable.

It happens. Sometimes the wine is bad. Etiquette dictates that you turn away a bottle because it has gone bad, not because you simply don’t like it.

I get that, but wouldn’t the same be true for just about any food or beverage? Why all the ceremonial pomp for wine, but not other pricey liquor, steak, lobster, risotto, etc.?

As a non-participant in the show, it just wastes time, imo.

I guess there is showiness involved with high-end desserts, like all the flaming stuff, and other items prepared tableside, but nobody is getting certified to ensure they display enough culture when served a nice Caesar salad.

 

[Ilov80s]

I get that, but wouldn’t the same be true for just about any food or beverage? Why all the ceremonial pomp for wine, but not other pricey liquor, steak, lobster, risotto, etc.?

As a non-participant in the show, it just wastes time for the non-connoisseurs, imo.

I guess there is showiness involved with high-end desserts, like all the flaming stuff, and other items prepared tableside, but nobody is getting certified to ensure they display enough culture when served a nice Caesar salad.

I mostly do agree with you. The wine culture is mostly just snobbery. However, there is something like a 5% failure rate in corks so I get the idea of making sure you have not ordered a bottle of vinegar for the table to drink. That said, if we all just accepted twist tops, we could do with less show.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I get that, but wouldn’t the same be true for just about any food or beverage? Why all the ceremonial pomp for wine, but not other pricey liquor, steak, lobster, risotto, etc.?

As a non-participant in the show, it just wastes time for the non-connoisseurs, imo.

I guess there is showiness involved with high-end desserts, like all the flaming stuff, and other items prepared tableside, but nobody is getting certified to ensure they display enough culture when served a nice Caesar salad.

I mostly do agree with you. The wine culture is mostly just snobbery. However, there is something like a 5% failure rate in corks so I get the idea of making sure you have not ordered a bottle of vinegar for the table to drink. That said, if we all just accepted twist tops, we could do with less show.

I didn’t realize that. Other than tradition (environment?), any good reason to stick with cork?

 

[Terminalxylem]

I’m guessing the 90 minute rule is only posted so that if you’re still dawdling for 30 minutes after dinner they can politely tell you to GTFO

Restaurants here should cut their reservations down at least 25%. In Europe by contrast, they are much more relaxed and it is unheard of to rush people through a meal just to seat the next table. Hell, they don't even give you the bill until you ask for it. But here, it's all about how many butts you can serve and how much money you can make.

This seems like the constant refrain about how wonderful Europe is with people spending 4 hours at dinner.
For the US, I don't know "it's all about how many butts you can serve and how much money you can make." From what I can tell, a restaurant is a tough business with ridiculously narrow profit margins. I'm not sure I fault a restaurant for wanting to turn their tables every 2 hours.

What percentage of the time do you guys feel rushed through a meal, in comparison to delays in service?

For me, the breakdown is 0% rushed, maybe 25% delayed due to service. I can’t recall ever receiving the check before I was ready. A four hour dinner is about 3 hours too long, imo.

But about 50% of the time the meal takes too long because my wife and father-in-law are the two slowest eaters on the planet.

 

[Instinctive]

I get that, but wouldn’t the same be true for just about any food or beverage? Why all the ceremonial pomp for wine, but not other pricey liquor, steak, lobster, risotto, etc.?

As a non-participant in the show, it just wastes time for the non-connoisseurs, imo.

I guess there is showiness involved with high-end desserts, like all the flaming stuff, and other items prepared tableside, but nobody is getting certified to ensure they display enough culture when served a nice Caesar salad.

I mostly do agree with you. The wine culture is mostly just snobbery. However, there is something like a 5% failure rate in corks so I get the idea of making sure you have not ordered a bottle of vinegar for the table to drink. That said, if we all just accepted twist tops, we could do with less show.

I didn’t realize that. Other than tradition (environment?), any good reason to stick with cork?

Theoretically, there's a difference in how a wine can age with a cork vs a screw cap. How much this matters is up for debate, as screw caps are new enough for studies to not have enough longevity to be fully conclusive. My personal sense is any bottle that wholesales for more than like $100 should probably be corked, and even then it depends on varietal and style.

Worth noting that the vast majority of wines aren't aging, and then a subset of the ones that are, aren't gaining much from it anyway.

 

[JohnnyU]

The original article you linked to was from a UK paper, and they have been enforcing time limits in nice European restaurants for close to a decade that I am aware of.

So people talking about no time limits in 'Europe', I don't get it, when this is demonstrably false.

Thanks. I was mostly just responding to the folks here fawning over how aweseome it is in Europe where you take all the time you want and "have to beg" for the server to bring a check.

I spend a lot of time in Italy on business, and honestly, I wish the meals were shorter. Getting back to my hotel from dinner at close to midnight is brutal when you’re jet lagged and working all day. So not really awesome per se or fawning in my book.

Have the bigger meal at lunch and have a snack for dinner. That’s what we are planning on doing for our trip to Italy in May, with the exception of a few times.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

The original article you linked to was from a UK paper, and they have been enforcing time limits in nice European restaurants for close to a decade that I am aware of.

So people talking about no time limits in 'Europe', I don't get it, when this is demonstrably false.

Thanks. I was mostly just responding to the folks here fawning over how aweseome it is in Europe where you take all the time you want and "have to beg" for the server to bring a check.

I spend a lot of time in Italy on business, and honestly, I wish the meals were shorter. Getting back to my hotel from dinner at close to midnight is brutal when you’re jet lagged and working all day. So not really awesome per se or fawning in my book.

Have the bigger meal at lunch and have a snack for dinner. That’s what we are planning on doing for our trip to Italy in May, with the exception of a few times.

It seems like it’s a business dinner, so he has no choice.

 

[JohnnyU]

The original article you linked to was from a UK paper, and they have been enforcing time limits in nice European restaurants for close to a decade that I am aware of.

So people talking about no time limits in 'Europe', I don't get it, when this is demonstrably false.

Thanks. I was mostly just responding to the folks here fawning over how aweseome it is in Europe where you take all the time you want and "have to beg" for the server to bring a check.

I spend a lot of time in Italy on business, and honestly, I wish the meals were shorter. Getting back to my hotel from dinner at close to midnight is brutal when you’re jet lagged and working all day. So not really awesome per se or fawning in my book.

Have the bigger meal at lunch and have a snack for dinner. That’s what we are planning on doing for our trip to Italy in May, with the exception of a few times.

It seems like it’s a business dinner, so he has no choice.

He didn’t say. He just said he was in Italy on business. That doesn’t necessarily mean he is having dinner with business associates, but I agree with you if that is the case.

 

[bigbottom]

The original article you linked to was from a UK paper, and they have been enforcing time limits in nice European restaurants for close to a decade that I am aware of.

So people talking about no time limits in 'Europe', I don't get it, when this is demonstrably false.

Thanks. I was mostly just responding to the folks here fawning over how aweseome it is in Europe where you take all the time you want and "have to beg" for the server to bring a check.

I spend a lot of time in Italy on business, and honestly, I wish the meals were shorter. Getting back to my hotel from dinner at close to midnight is brutal when you’re jet lagged and working all day. So not really awesome per se or fawning in my book.

Have the bigger meal at lunch and have a snack for dinner. That’s what we are planning on doing for our trip to Italy in May, with the exception of a few times.

Yeah, sorry I wasn’t more clear. These are work-related dinners when I’m on business trips so not really optional. But yeah, your plan is a good one though you should definitely have a few nice dinners. There are places that open earlier.

 

[JohnnyU]

The original article you linked to was from a UK paper, and they have been enforcing time limits in nice European restaurants for close to a decade that I am aware of.

So people talking about no time limits in 'Europe', I don't get it, when this is demonstrably false.

Thanks. I was mostly just responding to the folks here fawning over how aweseome it is in Europe where you take all the time you want and "have to beg" for the server to bring a check.

I spend a lot of time in Italy on business, and honestly, I wish the meals were shorter. Getting back to my hotel from dinner at close to midnight is brutal when you’re jet lagged and working all day. So not really awesome per se or fawning in my book.

Have the bigger meal at lunch and have a snack for dinner. That’s what we are planning on doing for our trip to Italy in May, with the exception of a few times.

Yeah, sorry I wasn’t more clear. These are work-related dinners when I’m on business trips so not really optional. But yeah, your plan is a good one though you should definitely have a few nice dinners. There are places that open earlier.

My wife is the planner and it was her idea of having the bigger meal at lunch and just snack for dinner. That way your whole evening isn’t taken up by dinner every night. Of course we want the experience of nice dinners as well. Kind of mix it up I suppose.