Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Really? That thread is on its 14th page and counting, this one just started its 3rd.This has seen a lot more discussion than any of the Campbell decisions from the NFCCG
Really? That thread is on its 14th page and counting, this one just started its 3rd.This has seen a lot more discussion than any of the Campbell decisions from the NFCCG
Yeah. I love Shanny. I think he's the smartest coach in the NFL. But I do think he messed these two situations just the slightest bit. **** happens in games. You should expect WRs to drop balls, fumbles to happen, refs to call holding, and the other team to play well. But you can control your play calling. And to me he forgets to get ahead of the chains when he can close out a game. A 3 yard run on 1st is very valuable. Versus a -8 pass that puts his team in 2 and 18. And that call was all him. KC read it perfectly to their credit. And the WR in a perfect world should have batted the ball down. C'est la vie. All hindsight I guess. But Romo was all over it after halftime so it's not like it wasn;'t obvious to someone that played the game.The 49ers defense forced 6 turnovers & their offense couldn’t put points on the board.As a Falcons fan, I both could and couldn't believe he did it again. The schadenfreude was palpable though.
Shanahan didn’t let a punt glance off of his foot.
Shanahan didn’t not see Jennings on a crossing route for an easy 7+ yards to make it 3rd & short, instead forcing a ball to a well-covered Kittle.
Shanahan didn’t commit a false start at a critical point of the game.
Shanahan got his team in a position to win the game at the end.
At some point you have to give credit to the KC defense for executing, and to Patrick Mahomes for putting in yet another game winning drive. The Chiefs earned this, 100%.
Shanahan didn’t do anything worthy of your shadenfruede, but I’m happy if that was cathartic for you.
Don't get me wrong - I actually think he's a great coach and only very minimally blamed him for the Falcons game and it was much more egregious what he did to us. All he really had to do was run one more time and kick a FG and it's essentially over. I do think they should have run a little more last night but it wasn't bad - 31 rushes to 38 passing attempts. Take a few of those out for scrambles and it's still within 10.
I think he's a pretty brilliant play caller and I really enjoy watching his teams play.
Lastly, I'm really happy he lost.
I was meaning where I discuss elsewhere, not here - the Campbell decisions didn't even generate a single postReally? That thread is on its 14th page and counting, this one just started its 3rd.This has seen a lot more discussion than any of the Campbell decisions from the NFCCG
Well, if the line doesn’t collapse & Moody doesn’t have his PAT blocked the 49ers probably win in regulation and we aren’t even having this topic, so…Yeah. I love Shanny. I think he's the smartest coach in the NFL. But I do think he messed these two situations just the slightest bit. **** happens in games. You should expect WRs to drop balls, fumbles to happen, refs to call holding, and the other team to play well. But you can control your play calling. And to me he forgets to get ahead of the chains when he can close out a game. A 3 yard run on 1st is very valuable. Versus a -8 pass that puts his team in 2 and 18. And that call was all him. KC read it perfectly to their credit. And the WR in a perfect world should have batted the ball down. C'est la vie. All hindsight I guess. But Romo was all over it after halftime so it's not like it wasn;'t obvious to someone that played the game.The 49ers defense forced 6 turnovers & their offense couldn’t put points on the board.As a Falcons fan, I both could and couldn't believe he did it again. The schadenfreude was palpable though.
Shanahan didn’t let a punt glance off of his foot.
Shanahan didn’t not see Jennings on a crossing route for an easy 7+ yards to make it 3rd & short, instead forcing a ball to a well-covered Kittle.
Shanahan didn’t commit a false start at a critical point of the game.
Shanahan got his team in a position to win the game at the end.
At some point you have to give credit to the KC defense for executing, and to Patrick Mahomes for putting in yet another game winning drive. The Chiefs earned this, 100%.
Shanahan didn’t do anything worthy of your shadenfruede, but I’m happy if that was cathartic for you.
Don't get me wrong - I actually think he's a great coach and only very minimally blamed him for the Falcons game and it was much more egregious what he did to us. All he really had to do was run one more time and kick a FG and it's essentially over. I do think they should have run a little more last night but it wasn't bad - 31 rushes to 38 passing attempts. Take a few of those out for scrambles and it's still within 10.
I think he's a pretty brilliant play caller and I really enjoy watching his teams play.
Lastly, I'm really happy he lost.
Not necessarily true. Being down 4 would be different play calls. KC doesn't settle for a tying FG either. A non block may have led to a loss in regulation.Well, if the line doesn’t collapse & Moody doesn’t have his PAT blocked the 49ers win in regulation and we aren’t even having this topic, so…
Degrees of difference but under the same umbrella. Having neither know its a big big problem.Niner players not knowing the rules isn't the same as the coaching staff not knowing the rules.
True but I sure would have liked to have that additional pointNot necessarily true. Being down 4 would be different play calls. KC doesn't settle for a tying FG either. A non block may have led to a loss in regulation.Well, if the line doesn’t collapse & Moody doesn’t have his PAT blocked the 49ers win in regulation and we aren’t even having this topic, so…
I meant to type “probably”, but my fingers were moving faster than my (slightly hungover) brain.Not necessarily true. Being down 4 would be different play calls. KC doesn't settle for a tying FG either. A non block may have led to a loss in regulation.Well, if the line doesn’t collapse & Moody doesn’t have his PAT blocked the 49ers win in regulation and we aren’t even having this topic, so…
I think knowing what you are up against is the big thing here. KC is on record saying that they were not going to let the 49ers have multiple possessions b/c if they had scored a TD, KC would have gone for 2 if they needed to match a TD.Didn't read every post so I am sure someone mentioned this.
The main downfall for kicking 1st is if it goes FG then FG or if it goes punt then punt then the next score wins.
KC said they were going to kick off anyway if they won the toss. So if SF had made a big play there in the Red Zone and it was like 4th and 10 from the 15 then KC would have had to kick the FG.
Thus now the game goes to sudden death and SF gets the ball 1st.
So this isn't like college where you clearly want the ball 2nd. This is a really tough call and I can see doing it either way there are advantages and disadvantages either way.
Yes, but that was only if they scored a TD. They could have been forced to punt, and if it had been 4th and 12 from the 30 I'm sure they would have kicked the FG. Heck, both teams could have gone for it on 4th down and failed. KC clearly wanted to shorten the game, but that doesn't meant they would have succeededI think knowing what you are up against is the big thing here. KC is on record saying that they were not going to let the 49ers have multiple possessions b/c if they had scored a TD, KC would have gone for 2 if they needed to match a TD.Didn't read every post so I am sure someone mentioned this.
The main downfall for kicking 1st is if it goes FG then FG or if it goes punt then punt then the next score wins.
KC said they were going to kick off anyway if they won the toss. So if SF had made a big play there in the Red Zone and it was like 4th and 10 from the 15 then KC would have had to kick the FG.
Thus now the game goes to sudden death and SF gets the ball 1st.
So this isn't like college where you clearly want the ball 2nd. This is a really tough call and I can see doing it either way there are advantages and disadvantages either way.
This never really occurred to me until just now, but the fact that teams have always chosen to receive in OT is a huge fail.53/47 was close enough, IMO.53/47 and the playoff rules are almost exactly 50/50. That suggests the old rules did put too much weight on the coin flip
I get the rationale. I am still allowed to dislike the new rules.
Cmon man, don’t leave us hangin’! The suspense is killing me!This never really occurred to me until just now, but the fact that53/47 was close enough, IMO.53/47 and the playoff rules are almost exactly 50/50. That suggests the old rules did put too much weight on the coin flip
I get the rationale. I am still allowed to dislike the new rules.
Stupid oversensitive trackpad submitted the post while I was in the middle of typing. It's fixed nowCmon man, don’t leave us hangin’! The suspense is killing me!This never really occurred to me until just now, but the fact that53/47 was close enough, IMO.53/47 and the playoff rules are almost exactly 50/50. That suggests the old rules did put too much weight on the coin flip
I get the rationale. I am still allowed to dislike the new rules.
We aren't talking the brightest guys in the world. They have immense physical talents. And some are indeed smart. But many could have it written on their wrist, be told to read it every hour for a month, and still not remember it. I'm sure they were all told. Lots of these cats got through HS and college by a thread while taking some damn simple classes. Can you imagine Antonio Brown in a calculus class?The fact some players didn't know the rules is yet another strike against Shanahan.
I still remember the game a few years ago when Donovan McNabb didn't realize a regular-season game could end in a tie. I don't think every player needs to know all this stuff, but it feels like the starting QB probably shouldWe aren't talking the brightest guys in the world. They have immense physical talents. And some are indeed smart. But many could have it written on their wrist, be told to read it every hour for a month, and still not remember it. I'm sure they were all told. Lots of these cats got through HS and college by a thread while taking some damn simple classes. Can you imagine Antonio Brown in a calculus class?The fact some players didn't know the rules is yet another strike against Shanahan.
Whew - that was a cliffhanger!Stupid oversensitive trackpad submitted the post while I was in the middle of typing. It's fixed nowCmon man, don’t leave us hangin’! The suspense is killing me!This never really occurred to me until just now, but the fact that53/47 was close enough, IMO.53/47 and the playoff rules are almost exactly 50/50. That suggests the old rules did put too much weight on the coin flip
I get the rationale. I am still allowed to dislike the new rules.
We aren't talking the brightest guys in the world. They have immense physical talents. And some are indeed smart. But many could have it written on their wrist, be told to read it every hour for a month, and still not remember it. I'm sure they were all told. Lots of these cats got through HS and college by a thread while taking some damn simple classes. Can you imagine Antonio Brown in a calculus class?The fact some players didn't know the rules is yet another strike against Shanahan.
A TD scoring contest in OT would be wild but dangerous.Now I'm picturing the end-game playing out like the final scene in Rocky II, when Rocky and Apollo both go down at the same time and whoever can manage to stagger to their feet by the count of 10 is the winnerFIrst OT = first quarter. Second OT = second quarter. There would have been a 2:00 warning at the end of the second OT followed by halftime if the game was still tied. Then kickoff like the start of a regular second half for 3OT.One question I have about playoff OT: Obviously, the end of the first OT was meaningless, other than switching sides. Is the second OT the same, or do they kick off to start the third period?
And if not, what's the point of even having a clock running during OT? What purpose does it serve?
This is why the referee at the beginning of OT made a point to announce they are "starting a new game." From what I read last night, after two periods, the team that lost the coin toss at the start of OT gets to make the kick/receive choice for the beginning of the third period (so not identical to a new game but similar). If the game is still tied after 4 full periods, they do another coin toss and start again.
If it were a soccer tournament, if all 4 quarters expire and they're still tied, they would go to a FG kicking contest to decide the winner.
Isn't that basically what college football has? After the first couple OTs, the teams just trade off two-point conversion attemptsA TD scoring contest in OT would be wild but dangerous.Now I'm picturing the end-game playing out like the final scene in Rocky II, when Rocky and Apollo both go down at the same time and whoever can manage to stagger to their feet by the count of 10 is the winnerFIrst OT = first quarter. Second OT = second quarter. There would have been a 2:00 warning at the end of the second OT followed by halftime if the game was still tied. Then kickoff like the start of a regular second half for 3OT.One question I have about playoff OT: Obviously, the end of the first OT was meaningless, other than switching sides. Is the second OT the same, or do they kick off to start the third period?
And if not, what's the point of even having a clock running during OT? What purpose does it serve?
This is why the referee at the beginning of OT made a point to announce they are "starting a new game." From what I read last night, after two periods, the team that lost the coin toss at the start of OT gets to make the kick/receive choice for the beginning of the third period (so not identical to a new game but similar). If the game is still tied after 4 full periods, they do another coin toss and start again.
If it were a soccer tournament, if all 4 quarters expire and they're still tied, they would go to a FG kicking contest to decide the winner.
Ha. Was thinking this myself. It’s only a few guys saying that didn’t know. Seems most of the team knew so why didn’t they?We aren't talking the brightest guys in the world. They have immense physical talents. And some are indeed smart. But many could have it written on their wrist, be told to read it every hour for a month, and still not remember it. I'm sure they were all told. Lots of these cats got through HS and college by a thread while taking some damn simple classes. Can you imagine Antonio Brown in a calculus class?The fact some players didn't know the rules is yet another strike against Shanahan.
Do they bring Usher back out again?FIrst OT = first quarter. Second OT = second quarter. There would have been a 2:00 warning at the end of the second OT followed by halftime if the game was still tied. Then kickoff like the start of a regular second half for 3OT.One question I have about playoff OT: Obviously, the end of the first OT was meaningless, other than switching sides. Is the second OT the same, or do they kick off to start the third period?
And if not, what's the point of even having a clock running during OT? What purpose does it serve?
Not really. SF could have decided to take the ball first, score a TD, and go for two.Interesting to note that someone on the Chefs indicated that in the event of a SF TD they would go for two, which negates a bunch of "but SF might get a third possession where it's next goal wins" arguments
It was Mahomes, and only applies if both teams score a TD. If they go FG-FG or punt-punt, then SF gets the ball back with sudden deathInteresting to note that someone on the Chefs indicated that in the event of a SF TD they would go for two, which negates a bunch of "but SF might get a third possession where it's next goal wins" arguments
Who do you trust more on analytics and in-game decisions? Andy Reid or Kyle Shanahan?It was Mahomes, and only applies if both teams score a TD. If they go FG-FG or punt-punt, then SF gets the ball back with sudden deathInteresting to note that someone on the Chefs indicated that in the event of a SF TD they would go for two, which negates a bunch of "but SF might get a third possession where it's next goal wins" arguments
I agree, and I think if you kick off you are guaranteed the ball, no matter what the offense does, and you CAN end the game with a turnover and a cheap field goal quite easily.I'd like to see what the analytics say but I think knowing exactly what you need on your 1st possession is more valuable than making sure you get the 1st sudden death possession in the event of the first 2 possessions matching. But I think it's close enough you could go either way especially when you factor in the tired defense part of it.
Here's the thing though:I agree, and I think if you kick off you are guaranteed the ball, no matter what the offense does, and you CAN end the game with a turnover and a cheap field goal quite easily.I'd like to see what the analytics say but I think knowing exactly what you need on your 1st possession is more valuable than making sure you get the 1st sudden death possession in the event of the first 2 possessions matching. But I think it's close enough you could go either way especially when you factor in the tired defense part of it.
I def prefer kicking off.
Here's the thing though:I agree, and I think if you kick off you are guaranteed the ball, no matter what the offense does, and you CAN end the game with a turnover and a cheap field goal quite easily.I'd like to see what the analytics say but I think knowing exactly what you need on your 1st possession is more valuable than making sure you get the 1st sudden death possession in the event of the first 2 possessions matching. But I think it's close enough you could go either way especially when you factor in the tired defense part of it.
I def prefer kicking off.
1. Let's say you don't score, punt, and they have the ball on the 25. Can't you still end the game with a turnover and a cheap field goal quite easily?
2. if you receive, aren't you guaranteed the ball? Or are we assuming there'll be a sudden overtime rash of trying to return kicks from out the back of the end zone and fumbling them?
I generally agree that this is probably a super close call that may not even have a right answer as the going wisdom but will depend on things like "my defense is tired right now" - but let's have good reasons if we're going o favor one side over the other.
Regarding your first point: Definitely. At that point, there's all kinds of sudden death. I want the chance to end it as quick as possible, and the only way it ends on the first drive is a turnover.Here's the thing though:
1. Let's say you don't score, punt, and they have the ball on the 25. Can't you still end the game with a turnover and a cheap field goal quite easily?
2. if you receive, aren't you guaranteed the ball? Or are we assuming there'll be a sudden overtime rash of trying to return kicks from out the back of the end zone and fumbling them?
I generally agree that this is probably a super close call that may not even have a right answer as the going wisdom but will depend on things like "my defense is tired right now" - but let's have good reasons if we're going o favor one side over the other.
I guess that if San Fran had scored a TD on their opening drive that they would not have won 25-19 automatically.
I was under the impression that when a team drives down for a TD on the opening drive of OT, game over
I also thought overtime was 10 minute periods after about a decade where I would routinely ask in game threads, "When did they got to 10 minute OT periods?"
Event he players don't know what the Overtime Rules are
Wish the NFL would clean this up and make it easy for everyone to understand what's happening
An average fan that maybe tunes intot eh Super Bowl was probably thinking shenanigans in that Overtime
Had Kelce scored on the play before Hardman, you would have really seen some folks step out and say "Scripted"
I don't think the games are scripted or rigged but the NFL makes it tough to just overlook at times.
Who listens to the booth/broadcast?I guess that if San Fran had scored a TD on their opening drive that they would not have won 25-19 automatically.
I was under the impression that when a team drives down for a TD on the opening drive of OT, game over
I also thought overtime was 10 minute periods after about a decade where I would routinely ask in game threads, "When did they got to 10 minute OT periods?"
Event he players don't know what the Overtime Rules are
Wish the NFL would clean this up and make it easy for everyone to understand what's happening
An average fan that maybe tunes intot eh Super Bowl was probably thinking shenanigans in that Overtime
Had Kelce scored on the play before Hardman, you would have really seen some folks step out and say "Scripted"
I don't think the games are scripted or rigged but the NFL makes it tough to just overlook at times.
They explained it at least 100 times during the broadcast.
It's a new rule they put in after everyone asked for it after the Bills/Chiefs game a few years ago. They used to have simpler overtime rules and everyone hated it, and asked for this.
Well yeah I just don't see how that's affected by kicking or receiving. If KC received, scored a TD, and then SF came down and was in the same spot, the only difference is they'd have gone for it and either lost or tied.Regarding your first point: Definitely. At that point, there's all kinds of sudden death. I want the chance to end it as quick as possible, and the only way it ends on the first drive is a turnover.Here's the thing though:
1. Let's say you don't score, punt, and they have the ball on the 25. Can't you still end the game with a turnover and a cheap field goal quite easily?
2. if you receive, aren't you guaranteed the ball? Or are we assuming there'll be a sudden overtime rash of trying to return kicks from out the back of the end zone and fumbling them?
I generally agree that this is probably a super close call that may not even have a right answer as the going wisdom but will depend on things like "my defense is tired right now" - but let's have good reasons if we're going o favor one side over the other.
And hey, if you receive the ball, and go down and get a TD, that's the best option. Make them HAVE to get a TD. SF received the ball, and got a FG, which really puts KC in a nice state of mind.
Taking the ball, and getting a FG is really not great. It looks a lot better if you get a TD. (HOT TAKE)
I initially had the same thought, but @ZWK made what I thought was a pretty convincing argument against it: Using simplified percentages and assuming both teams score TDs on their opening drive, if SF fails to convert the 2PC they are guaranteed to lose, whereas if they succeed they still only have a 50% chance of winning + whatever their chances are in sudden death. Meanwhile, if they kick the XP, they win if they stop the 2PC.Not really. SF could have decided to take the ball first, score a TD, and go for two.Interesting to note that someone on the Chefs indicated that in the event of a SF TD they would go for two, which negates a bunch of "but SF might get a third possession where it's next goal wins" arguments
What would have been pure chaos is if the stadium workers start releasing confetti!I think that the "Niners didn't know the rules" story has been a bit overhyped -- I don't think a few of the guys not knowing the exact rule really had an impact on the outcome.
Still, how hilarious would it have been pretty if Juszczyk had scored a TD on the opening drive and started celebrating what he thought was a Super Bowl win?
Aw man, now I'm kind of wishing it had happened. It would have been right up there with the Oscars Moonlight/La-La Land debacle #embracethechaosWhat would have been pure chaos is if the stadium workers start releasing confetti!I think that the "Niners didn't know the rules" story has been a bit overhyped -- I don't think a few of the guys not knowing the exact rule really had an impact on the outcome.
Still, how hilarious would it have been pretty if Juszczyk had scored a TD on the opening drive and started celebrating what he thought was a Super Bowl win?
I knew it before the game and I'm not paid millions of dollars a year. Wish they'd roll this rule into the regular season, it's awesome.Who listens to the booth/broadcast?I guess that if San Fran had scored a TD on their opening drive that they would not have won 25-19 automatically.
I was under the impression that when a team drives down for a TD on the opening drive of OT, game over
I also thought overtime was 10 minute periods after about a decade where I would routinely ask in game threads, "When did they got to 10 minute OT periods?"
Event he players don't know what the Overtime Rules are
Wish the NFL would clean this up and make it easy for everyone to understand what's happening
An average fan that maybe tunes intot eh Super Bowl was probably thinking shenanigans in that Overtime
Had Kelce scored on the play before Hardman, you would have really seen some folks step out and say "Scripted"
I don't think the games are scripted or rigged but the NFL makes it tough to just overlook at times.
They explained it at least 100 times during the broadcast.
It's a new rule they put in after everyone asked for it after the Bills/Chiefs game a few years ago. They used to have simpler overtime rules and everyone hated it, and asked for this.
100x, I never heard it once