Sydney Cafe held hostage by Jihadists (2 Viewers)

[msommer]

Sydney Hostage Taker Identified as Man Haron MonisMan Haron Monis, a self-proclaimed Islamic “sheikh” and alleged sexual predator, has been identified as the gunman who was holding multiple people hostage in an hours-long standoff in a café in Sydney, according to Australian media.

Overnight hostages reportedly spoke to Australian television stations and identified their captor, though police requested outlets not publish it at the time. At around 11 a.m. EST, the situation came to a violent end when police stormed the café, freeing several hostages amid flashes from stun grenades and gunfire. It’s not clear what happened to Monis in the operation.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/sydney-hostage-taker-identified-man-haron-monis/story?id=27607179

Charged with 40 counts of molesting women, and with assisting in the murder of his ex-wife

Suicide by SWAT indeed

 

[Limp Ditka]

So this guy was apparently an Iranian refuge. Not born and raised Australian.

If you're Australia, and you have this jagoff harassing the families of your fallen soldiers, why not just ceremoniously remove this piece of crap from your country?

Revoke his citizenship, assuming he had it, and put his ### on the first plane headed to Iran

 

[Fat Nick]

Islam is a primitive religion only still practiced by primitives. There is no need for an elaborate "command and control" apparatus for these Sunni jihadists. The terror game plan is understood by all. It is ruthless and without discretion in its targets. Basically, you are to kill all infidels, including and especially Shia muslims.

This is a little narrow-minded. I get saying that about radical Islam, but not Islam in general.

I don't think anybody is arguing with the fact that terrorism is ruthless and doesn't care if a target is military or civilian...the big difference here is that Al Quaeda was organized. They communicated. They acted on the commands of a hierarchy. ISIS, while organized, has basically given members the ability to carry out attacks whenever and wherever they want to. Because of this lack of..."discretion," the attacks are more like this than the larger-scale Al Quaeda plots.

I've become narrow-minded on the subject and would shame an earlier version of me. I've spent a great deal of time in East Africa and seen how an AQ offshoot has essentially destroyed any hope of building a modern society that can care for the people. And the AQ there are protected by the Muslim community at-large, who refuse to tell the Army who the killers are, even anonymously, even though they are among them and known therein. The Muslims at-large prefer living in a brutal AQ theocracy to living in a western-styled democracy. So I've decided they are also to blame. And then when I see the way basically every Muslim treats women, I realize there is an insurmountable gap between them and the rest of "us."

Eh. I give you credit for owning the statement then. Kudos. I guess maybe when my view is Islam in America, and having never been exposed to Islam abroad, I can't comment on the same experiences you can.

 

[msommer]

So this guy was apparently an Iranian refuge. Not born and raised Australian.

If you're Australia, and you have this jagoff harassing the families of your fallen soldiers, why not just ceremoniously remove this piece of crap from your country?

Revoke his citizenship, assuming he had it, and put his ### on the first plane headed to Iran

It may be because they do not have laws allowing that, or potentially international conventions would stop them if he was at risk of persecution in his homeland, torture, death penalty, that sort of thing

 

[CurlyNight]

2 dead. :( Hopefully one is the ahole.

Sounds like one of the dead is the ahole.

3 people dead: 2 hostages and the nutcase.

 

[timschochet]

Islam is a primitive religion only still practiced by primitives. There is no need for an elaborate "command and control" apparatus for these Sunni jihadists. The terror game plan is understood by all. It is ruthless and without discretion in its targets. Basically, you are to kill all infidels, including and especially Shia muslims.

This is a little narrow-minded. I get saying that about radical Islam, but not Islam in general.

I don't think anybody is arguing with the fact that terrorism is ruthless and doesn't care if a target is military or civilian...the big difference here is that Al Quaeda was organized. They communicated. They acted on the commands of a hierarchy. ISIS, while organized, has basically given members the ability to carry out attacks whenever and wherever they want to. Because of this lack of..."discretion," the attacks are more like this than the larger-scale Al Quaeda plots.

I've become narrow-minded on the subject and would shame an earlier version of me. I've spent a great deal of time in East Africa and seen how an AQ offshoot has essentially destroyed any hope of building a modern society that can care for the people. And the AQ there are protected by the Muslim community at-large, who refuse to tell the Army who the killers are, even anonymously, even though they are among them and known therein. The Muslims at-large prefer living in a brutal AQ theocracy to living in a western-styled democracy. So I've decided they are also to blame. And then when I see the way basically every Muslim treats women, I realize there is an insurmountable gap between them and the rest of "us."

Eh. I give you credit for owning the statement then. Kudos. I guess maybe when my view is Islam in America, and having never been exposed to Islam abroad, I can't comment on the same experiences you can.

IMO, your response is a copout. I don't think you have to live abroad to recognize religious bigotry when you read it. By blaming all of Islam for the actions of a few, cjv123 proves himself to be a full blown bigot. Is he as bad as the terrorist who took these people hostage? Of course not. But he's not helping things either.

 

[cjv123]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

 

[timschochet]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

2. Civilization has many problems. One of the biggest is blaming whole groups of people for the actions of a few. This has been a frequent disaster endlessly repeated throughout history.

3. All of this is debatable.

4. During those feudal times you speak of, Islam was the great hope of mankind and civilization, while the Christian world wallowed in ignorance and savagery.

5. What ground rules?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Down with Islam/religion

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

2. Civilization has many problems. One of the biggest is blaming whole groups of people for the actions of a few. This has been a frequent disaster endlessly repeated throughout history.

3. All of this is debatable.

4. During those feudal times you speak of, Islam was the great hope of mankind and civilization, while the Christian world wallowed in ignorance and savagery.

5. What ground rules?

You're similar to a tree hugger except you tend to hug all of the troublemakers.

 

[timschochet]

Down with Islam/religion

Despite everything I kind of like you Ditka Butkis. But if there's a mob about to form up, you're sure to join it.

 

[timschochet]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

2. Civilization has many problems. One of the biggest is blaming whole groups of people for the actions of a few. This has been a frequent disaster endlessly repeated throughout history.

3. All of this is debatable.

4. During those feudal times you speak of, Islam was the great hope of mankind and civilization, while the Christian world wallowed in ignorance and savagery.

5. What ground rules?

You're similar to a tree hugger except you tend to hug all of the troublemakers.

Somehow this doesn't strike me as a compliment.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Down with Islam/religion

Despite everything I kind of like you Ditka Butkis. But if there's a mob about to form up, you're sure to join it.

I like you too Tim, but I would only join up with the groups that are fighting criminals and nut jobs.

 

[GrandpaRox]

CPR on at least two injured people...that's ominous. :(

Such a tragedy. But let's not torture these animals for information to hunt down captains and generals in the regime of Islamic terror. Let's treat them like humans even though they have no regard for human life.Anyway. That's an entirely different conversation and thread.

Yes it is. And according to early reports it is also likely irrelevant, since this guy seems to be s lone actor.One of the problems with this kind of terrorism is that there often is no authority, no central plan. These guys act by themselves without instruction from some organization whose members we can capture and interrogate.

Self-described Muslim cleric, forces hostages to hold up a banner with the Shahada, demands an ISIS flag...and you see no connection to Islam.

i never wrote that. Did you read my post? It's very clear that he is an Islamist and this was an act of terrorism.What I wrote was that it likely wasn't planned by some central authority somewhere.

Islam the religion of peace and understanding.

 

[Fat Nick]

Islam is a primitive religion only still practiced by primitives. There is no need for an elaborate "command and control" apparatus for these Sunni jihadists. The terror game plan is understood by all. It is ruthless and without discretion in its targets. Basically, you are to kill all infidels, including and especially Shia muslims.

This is a little narrow-minded. I get saying that about radical Islam, but not Islam in general.

I don't think anybody is arguing with the fact that terrorism is ruthless and doesn't care if a target is military or civilian...the big difference here is that Al Quaeda was organized. They communicated. They acted on the commands of a hierarchy. ISIS, while organized, has basically given members the ability to carry out attacks whenever and wherever they want to. Because of this lack of..."discretion," the attacks are more like this than the larger-scale Al Quaeda plots.

I've become narrow-minded on the subject and would shame an earlier version of me. I've spent a great deal of time in East Africa and seen how an AQ offshoot has essentially destroyed any hope of building a modern society that can care for the people. And the AQ there are protected by the Muslim community at-large, who refuse to tell the Army who the killers are, even anonymously, even though they are among them and known therein. The Muslims at-large prefer living in a brutal AQ theocracy to living in a western-styled democracy. So I've decided they are also to blame. And then when I see the way basically every Muslim treats women, I realize there is an insurmountable gap between them and the rest of "us."

Eh. I give you credit for owning the statement then. Kudos. I guess maybe when my view is Islam in America, and having never been exposed to Islam abroad, I can't comment on the same experiences you can.

IMO, your response is a copout. I don't think you have to live abroad to recognize religious bigotry when you read it. By blaming all of Islam for the actions of a few, cjv123 proves himself to be a full blown bigot. Is he as bad as the terrorist who took these people hostage? Of course not. But he's not helping things either.

Call it what you will. As initially taken without context, my initial take on the comment was religious bigotry...having read that cjv123 is somebody with real experiences outside of the US, then while experiences have not necessarily changed my opinion, I'm willing to say that cjv123 has had enough experience to make his own call, even if it's not necessarily aligned with my experiences. It's not necessarily coming from some back-woods person with a closed mind. You don't have to agree with someone to give them some credit for their belief.

I don't know the defined edicts of Islam, so I'm not going to even set foot in the treatment of women by all or some, etc.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

2. Civilization has many problems. One of the biggest is blaming whole groups of people for the actions of a few. This has been a frequent disaster endlessly repeated throughout history.

3. All of this is debatable.

4. During those feudal times you speak of, Islam was the great hope of mankind and civilization, while the Christian world wallowed in ignorance and savagery.

5. What ground rules?

You're similar to a tree hugger except you tend to hug all of the troublemakers.

Somehow this doesn't strike me as a compliment.

Well, I'm just saying you seem to be able to make excuses for people or groups of people, who kind of #### in their own hats and create their own problems..

 

[CurlyNight]

Down with Islam/religion extremists/radicals

Islam is actually a religion of peace at the core. The rest of it with women and gays and all, well that is a different story.

 

[msommer]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

2. Civilization has many problems. One of the biggest is blaming whole groups of people for the actions of a few. This has been a frequent disaster endlessly repeated throughout history.

3. All of this is debatable.

4. During those feudal times you speak of, Islam was the great hope of mankind and civilization, while the Christian world wallowed in ignorance and savagery.

5. What ground rules?

1. In the Middle East/Levant I can think of only Turkey, Lebanon and possibly Syria (somewhat ironically) where this might be true. Please don't say Egypt, it ain't so nice for women or gays there. Where else did you have in mind? Even Dubai, the most free of the Emirates oppress women and gays.

2. Not so few. But in general i agree. But I think you are probably not well enough informed about conditions in Arab or other muslim states to come down on cvr like you did

3. Please decribe the e.g. Saudi, Bahraini, Qatari,Iranian society in one word. The woed you are lookong for is feudal

4. Should we applaud their societies for moving backwards from there?

 

[timschochet]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

Stay. You're entitled to share your opinion just like anyone else. Don't let Tim bully you by calling you a bigot.

I never asked him to leave. And I didn't mean to bully him or insult him. But he is, by any definition, a bigot. He holds everyone who is Muslim responsible for the actions of ISIS and other terrorists.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

Stay. You're entitled to share your opinion just like anyone else. Don't let Tim bully you by calling you a bigot.

I never asked him to leave. And I didn't mean to bully him or insult him. But he is, by any definition, a bigot. He holds everyone who is Muslim responsible for the actions of ISIS and other terrorists.

truth hurts?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

Stay. You're entitled to share your opinion just like anyone else. Don't let Tim bully you by calling you a bigot.

I never asked him to leave. And I didn't mean to bully him or insult him. But he is, by any definition, a bigot. He holds everyone who is Muslim responsible for the actions of ISIS and other terrorists.

Well they are somewhat responsible......There are billions of them, why do they not take a more active role in to rid their religion of them.

 

[timschochet]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

2. Civilization has many problems. One of the biggest is blaming whole groups of people for the actions of a few. This has been a frequent disaster endlessly repeated throughout history.

3. All of this is debatable.

4. During those feudal times you speak of, Islam was the great hope of mankind and civilization, while the Christian world wallowed in ignorance and savagery.

5. What ground rules?

1. In the Middle East/Levant I can think of only Turkey, Lebanon and possibly Syria (somewhat ironically) where this might be true. Please don't say Egypt, it ain't so nice for women or gays there. Where else did you have in mind? Even Dubai, the most free of the Emirates oppress women and gays.

2. Not so few. But in general i agree. But I think you are probably not well enough informed about conditions in Arab or other muslim states to come down on cvr like you did

3. Please decribe the e.g. Saudi, Bahraini, Qatari,Iranian society in one word. The woed you are lookong for is feudal

4. Should we applaud their societies for moving backwards from there?

1. I was just speaking of Muslims in general. I know some Muslim ladies in southern California who are not mistreated in any way. I also know a Muslim guy who is openly gay and accepted within his religious community, which is quite liberal. I acknowledge that both of these examples are out of the ordinary. But they preclude a blanket statement like "ALL Muslims mistreat women", etc.

2. I agree that there is way too much support for terrorism and extremism among the world's Muslims, and especially in Muslim states. That is far different from stating "Islam is a problem for civilization." The first is a thoughtful critique. The second is plain bigotry, IMO.

3. Not really. Some of those nations have terrible antiquated laws that makes one think of feudalism. But realistically they are about a thousand times removed from the overall harshness of life back then.

4. No. But we should try to understand them better, and understand exactly what went wrong for them, because it will help us deal with them.

 

[timschochet]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

Stay. You're entitled to share your opinion just like anyone else. Don't let Tim bully you by calling you a bigot.

I never asked him to leave. And I didn't mean to bully him or insult him. But he is, by any definition, a bigot. He holds everyone who is Muslim responsible for the actions of ISIS and other terrorists.

Well they are somewhat responsible......There are billions of them, why do they not take a more active role in to rid their religion of them.

Most of the opponents of ISIS have been Muslim.

And the primary way we defeat Muslim terrorists is by working with Muslim informants.

I'm not surprised you didn't know either of these points. They don't get a lot of play in the news, and conservative talk radio is very big on asking why Muslim leaders don't criticize ISIS. Go ahead and Google "Muslim leaders criticize ISIS" and you'll get page after page of clerics, political leaders, and Islamic public figures doing just that. But none of it ever seems to get reported.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.2. Civilization has many problems. One of the biggest is blaming whole groups of people for the actions of a few. This has been a frequent disaster endlessly repeated throughout history.

3. All of this is debatable.

4. During those feudal times you speak of, Islam was the great hope of mankind and civilization, while the Christian world wallowed in ignorance and savagery.

5. What ground rules?

1. In the Middle East/Levant I can think of only Turkey, Lebanon and possibly Syria (somewhat ironically) where this might be true. Please don't say Egypt, it ain't so nice for women or gays there. Where else did you have in mind? Even Dubai, the most free of the Emirates oppress women and gays.2. Not so few. But in general i agree. But I think you are probably not well enough informed about conditions in Arab or other muslim states to come down on cvr like you did

3. Please decribe the e.g. Saudi, Bahraini, Qatari,Iranian society in one word. The woed you are lookong for is feudal

4. Should we applaud their societies for moving backwards from there?

1. I was just speaking of Muslims in general. I know some Muslim ladies in southern California who are not mistreated in any way. I also know a Muslim guy who is openly gay and accepted within his religious community, which is quite liberal. I acknowledge that both of these examples are out of the ordinary. But they preclude a blanket statement like "ALL Muslims mistreat women", etc.2. I agree that there is way too much support for terrorism and extremism among the world's Muslims, and especially in Muslim states. That is far different from stating "Islam is a problem for civilization." The first is a thoughtful critique. The second is plain bigotry, IMO.

3. Not really. Some of those nations have terrible antiquated laws that makes one think of feudalism. But realistically they are about a thousand times removed from the overall harshness of life back then.

4. No. But we should try to understand them better, and understand exactly what went wrong for them, because it will help us deal with them.

So the three Muslims you know means you can say many countries and many people or even Muslims in general?

 

[rockaction]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.2. Civilization has many problems. One of the biggest is blaming whole groups of people for the actions of a few. This has been a frequent disaster endlessly repeated throughout history.

3. All of this is debatable.

4. During those feudal times you speak of, Islam was the great hope of mankind and civilization, while the Christian world wallowed in ignorance and savagery.

5. What ground rules?

1. In the Middle East/Levant I can think of only Turkey, Lebanon and possibly Syria (somewhat ironically) where this might be true. Please don't say Egypt, it ain't so nice for women or gays there. Where else did you have in mind? Even Dubai, the most free of the Emirates oppress women and gays.2. Not so few. But in general i agree. But I think you are probably not well enough informed about conditions in Arab or other muslim states to come down on cvr like you did

3. Please decribe the e.g. Saudi, Bahraini, Qatari,Iranian society in one word. The woed you are lookong for is feudal

4. Should we applaud their societies for moving backwards from there?

1. I was just speaking of Muslims in general. I know some Muslim ladies in southern California who are not mistreated in any way. I also know a Muslim guy who is openly gay and accepted within his religious community, which is quite liberal. I acknowledge that both of these examples are out of the ordinary. But they preclude a blanket statement like "ALL Muslims mistreat women", etc.2. I agree that there is way too much support for terrorism and extremism among the world's Muslims, and especially in Muslim states. That is far different from stating "Islam is a problem for civilization." The first is a thoughtful critique. The second is plain bigotry, IMO.

3. Not really. Some of those nations have terrible antiquated laws that makes one think of feudalism. But realistically they are about a thousand times removed from the overall harshness of life back then.

4. No. But we should try to understand them better, and understand exactly what went wrong for them, because it will help us deal with them.

So the three Muslims you know means you can say many countries and many people or even Muslims in general?

Whatever the bot identity that is Tim is sinking time into moderate mosquerbating, just like Bloomberg did with his mosque in NYC.

He'll say it's not the thread for it, then gleefully engage (meta-commentary on my end about Tim and his shaming sort of debate tactics)

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.2. Civilization has many problems. One of the biggest is blaming whole groups of people for the actions of a few. This has been a frequent disaster endlessly repeated throughout history.

3. All of this is debatable.

4. During those feudal times you speak of, Islam was the great hope of mankind and civilization, while the Christian world wallowed in ignorance and savagery.

5. What ground rules?

1. In the Middle East/Levant I can think of only Turkey, Lebanon and possibly Syria (somewhat ironically) where this might be true. Please don't say Egypt, it ain't so nice for women or gays there. Where else did you have in mind? Even Dubai, the most free of the Emirates oppress women and gays.2. Not so few. But in general i agree. But I think you are probably not well enough informed about conditions in Arab or other muslim states to come down on cvr like you did

3. Please decribe the e.g. Saudi, Bahraini, Qatari,Iranian society in one word. The woed you are lookong for is feudal

4. Should we applaud their societies for moving backwards from there?

1. I was just speaking of Muslims in general. I know some Muslim ladies in southern California who are not mistreated in any way. I also know a Muslim guy who is openly gay and accepted within his religious community, which is quite liberal. I acknowledge that both of these examples are out of the ordinary. But they preclude a blanket statement like "ALL Muslims mistreat women", etc.2. I agree that there is way too much support for terrorism and extremism among the world's Muslims, and especially in Muslim states. That is far different from stating "Islam is a problem for civilization." The first is a thoughtful critique. The second is plain bigotry, IMO.

3. Not really. Some of those nations have terrible antiquated laws that makes one think of feudalism. But realistically they are about a thousand times removed from the overall harshness of life back then.

4. No. But we should try to understand them better, and understand exactly what went wrong for them, because it will help us deal with them.

So the three Muslims you know means you can say many countries and many people or even Muslims in general?

Better yet, he's arguing against someone about making sweeping statements by making his own. Classic timmy

 

[timschochet]

That's interesting. What sweeping statements have I made in this thread?

 

[Fennis]

That's interesting. What sweeping statements have I made in this thread?

1) that you made no sweeping statements

 

[timschochet]

That's interesting. What sweeping statements have I made in this thread?

1) that you made no sweeping statements

That's rather broad of you.

 

[[icon]]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

1. In the Middle East/Levant I can think of only Turkey, Lebanon and possibly Syria (somewhat ironically) where this might be true. Please don't say Egypt, it ain't so nice for women or gays there. Where else did you have in mind? Even Dubai, the most free of the Emirates oppress women and gays.

1. I was just speaking of Muslims in general. I know some Muslim ladies in southern California who are not mistreated in any way. I also know a Muslim guy who is openly gay and accepted within his religious community, which is quite liberal. I acknowledge that both of these examples are out of the ordinary. But they preclude a blanket statement like "ALL Muslims mistreat women", etc.

I love how Tim is challenging the Islamic cultural knowledge-base of a guy with extensive real-world interactions on a global level under the premise "I know some Muslim ladies in Southern California".

 

[jamny]

That's interesting. What sweeping statements have I made in this thread?

1) that you made no sweeping statements

That's rather broad of you.

Sexist too?

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

1. In the Middle East/Levant I can think of only Turkey, Lebanon and possibly Syria (somewhat ironically) where this might be true. Please don't say Egypt, it ain't so nice for women or gays there. Where else did you have in mind? Even Dubai, the most free of the Emirates oppress women and gays.

1. I was just speaking of Muslims in general. I know some Muslim ladies in southern California who are not mistreated in any way. I also know a Muslim guy who is openly gay and accepted within his religious community, which is quite liberal. I acknowledge that both of these examples are out of the ordinary. But they preclude a blanket statement like "ALL Muslims mistreat women", etc.

I love how Tim is challenging the Islamic cultural knowledge-base of a guy with extensive real-world interactions on a global level under the premise "I know some Muslim ladies in Southern California".

Sad thing is that I really doubt Tim has ever talked to these Muslim women or any woman for that matter

 

[timschochet]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

1. In the Middle East/Levant I can think of only Turkey, Lebanon and possibly Syria (somewhat ironically) where this might be true. Please don't say Egypt, it ain't so nice for women or gays there. Where else did you have in mind? Even Dubai, the most free of the Emirates oppress women and gays.

1. I was just speaking of Muslims in general. I know some Muslim ladies in southern California who are not mistreated in any way. I also know a Muslim guy who is openly gay and accepted within his religious community, which is quite liberal. I acknowledge that both of these examples are out of the ordinary. But they preclude a blanket statement like "ALL Muslims mistreat women", etc.

I love how Tim is challenging the Islamic cultural knowledge-base of a guy with extensive real-world interactions on a global level under the premise "I know some Muslim ladies in Southern California".

Anyone who blames the entire religion of Islam and all Muslims for terrorism is a bigot. I don't care how much knowledge someone claims to have. Now msommer is no bigot and in fact I don't disagree with his specific points. But it's wrong of him, IMO, to use those points to attempt to defend the earlier comment which was ignorant and inaccurate.

 

[timschochet]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

1. In the Middle East/Levant I can think of only Turkey, Lebanon and possibly Syria (somewhat ironically) where this might be true. Please don't say Egypt, it ain't so nice for women or gays there. Where else did you have in mind? Even Dubai, the most free of the Emirates oppress women and gays.

1. I was just speaking of Muslims in general. I know some Muslim ladies in southern California who are not mistreated in any way. I also know a Muslim guy who is openly gay and accepted within his religious community, which is quite liberal. I acknowledge that both of these examples are out of the ordinary. But they preclude a blanket statement like "ALL Muslims mistreat women", etc.

I love how Tim is challenging the Islamic cultural knowledge-base of a guy with extensive real-world interactions on a global level under the premise "I know some Muslim ladies in Southern California".

Sad thing is that I really doubt Tim has ever talked to these Muslim women or any woman for that matter

OK you got me. I'm a monk.

 

[Guest]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

1. In the Middle East/Levant I can think of only Turkey, Lebanon and possibly Syria (somewhat ironically) where this might be true. Please don't say Egypt, it ain't so nice for women or gays there. Where else did you have in mind? Even Dubai, the most free of the Emirates oppress women and gays.

1. I was just speaking of Muslims in general. I know some Muslim ladies in southern California who are not mistreated in any way. I also know a Muslim guy who is openly gay and accepted within his religious community, which is quite liberal. I acknowledge that both of these examples are out of the ordinary. But they preclude a blanket statement like "ALL Muslims mistreat women", etc.

I love how Tim is challenging the Islamic cultural knowledge-base of a guy with extensive real-world interactions on a global level under the premise "I know some Muslim ladies in Southern California".

Sad thing is that I really doubt Tim has ever talked to these Muslim women or any woman for that matter

OK you got me. I'm a monk.

A vow of silence would explain all the typing.

 

[Bucky86]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

 

[Short Corner]

Tim,

The religion of Islam oppresses women and gays by official edicts. The religion of Islam is itself a problem for civilization. It's not debatable. Islam would bring us back into feudal times.

I'll just leave this thread. I did not understand the ground rules.

1. Wrong. Many Islamic countries, and many Islamic people, oppress women and gays. Not all.

2. Civilization has many problems. One of the biggest is blaming whole groups of people for the actions of a few. This has been a frequent disaster endlessly repeated throughout history.

3. All of this is debatable.

4. During those feudal times you speak of, Islam was the great hope of mankind and civilization, while the Christian world wallowed in ignorance and savagery.

5. What ground rules?

Oh my.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

Does that make you an islamophobicphobic?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

I'm just curious about something, and I say this with the best of intent, as I would like to understand. How would you explain to your children what and who these terrorists are? I mean we all acknowledge there are all kinds of terrorists (the IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Shining Path, the SLA, you name it), but how would you explain who these terrorists are that attacked the cafe in Sydney and the WTC in NYC (and etc. x 10,000)?

How would you explain or even discuss who these people are without using the words "muslim" or "Islamic"

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

I'm just curious about something, and I say this with the best of intent, as I would like to understand. How would you explain to your children what and who these terrorists are? I mean we all acknowledge there are all kinds of terrorists (the IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Shining Path, the SLA, you name it), but how would you explain who these terrorists are that attacked the cafe in Sydney and the WTC in NYC (and etc. x 10,000)?

How would you explain or even discuss who these people are without using the words "muslim" or "Islamic"

You explain that the guy who held the cafe hostage was crazy.

when that kid shot up the movie theater in Colorado, or the guy shot the politician in Arizona, were they associated with their religion? They are crazy. Not sure why people want to rush to lump folks in with others or jump to conclusions.

 

[msommer]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

I'm just curious about something, and I say this with the best of intent, as I would like to understand. How would you explain to your children what and who these terrorists are? I mean we all acknowledge there are all kinds of terrorists (the IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Shining Path, the SLA, you name it), but how would you explain who these terrorists are that attacked the cafe in Sydney and the WTC in NYC (and etc. x 10,000)?

How would you explain or even discuss who these people are without using the words "muslim" or "Islamic"

You explain that the guy who held the cafe hostage was crazy.

when that kid shot up the movie theater in Colorado, or the guy shot the politician in Arizona, were they associated with their religion? They are crazy. Not sure why people want to rush to lump folks in with others or jump to conclusions.

Technically the guy in the cafe associated himself with Islam, quite publicly.

Was he off his rails? Quite possible that too

 

[AAABatteries]

Anyone who blames the entire religion of Islam and all Muslims for terrorism is a bigot.

You aren't wrong in this ascertain but I think it does take away from the fact that from the outside it does appear that some large portion of the Islamic community is ok with the oppression of gays and women. I think that's a more important topic for discussion and not whether someone may generalize about a religion whose own edicts support their claim about oppression (or even terrorism).

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

I'm just curious about something, and I say this with the best of intent, as I would like to understand. How would you explain to your children what and who these terrorists are? I mean we all acknowledge there are all kinds of terrorists (the IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Shining Path, the SLA, you name it), but how would you explain who these terrorists are that attacked the cafe in Sydney and the WTC in NYC (and etc. x 10,000)?

How would you explain or even discuss who these people are without using the words "muslim" or "Islamic"

You explain that the guy who held the cafe hostage was crazy.

when that kid shot up the movie theater in Colorado, or the guy shot the politician in Arizona, were they associated with their religion? They are crazy. Not sure why people want to rush to lump folks in with others or jump to conclusions.

Technically the guy in the cafe associated himself with Islam, quite publicly.

Was he off his rails? Quite possible that too

yes he was. this guy was an outcast in the muslim community. As he was an outcast in life.

 

[msommer]

Anyone who blames the entire religion of Islam and all Muslims for terrorism is a bigot.

You aren't wrong in this ascertain but I think it does take away from the fact that from the outside it does appear that some large portion of the Islamic community is ok with the oppression of gays and women. I think that's a more important topic for discussion and not whether someone may generalize about a religion whose own edicts support their claim about oppression (or even terrorism).

it's not all about being the board bigot police

 

[msommer]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

I'm just curious about something, and I say this with the best of intent, as I would like to understand. How would you explain to your children what and who these terrorists are? I mean we all acknowledge there are all kinds of terrorists (the IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Shining Path, the SLA, you name it), but how would you explain who these terrorists are that attacked the cafe in Sydney and the WTC in NYC (and etc. x 10,000)?

How would you explain or even discuss who these people are without using the words "muslim" or "Islamic"

You explain that the guy who held the cafe hostage was crazy.

when that kid shot up the movie theater in Colorado, or the guy shot the politician in Arizona, were they associated with their religion? They are crazy. Not sure why people want to rush to lump folks in with others or jump to conclusions.

Technically the guy in the cafe associated himself with Islam, quite publicly.

Was he off his rails? Quite possible that too

yes he was. this guy was an outcast in the muslim community. As he was an outcast in life.

I'm not arguing for either correlation or causality.

But, he brought it into the public sphere, and then why should we not discuss it?

He could ahve asked for the state to drop the charges against that were going to land him in jail. Instead he chose to make a run for the 72 virgins...

 

[timschochet]

Anyone who blames the entire religion of Islam and all Muslims for terrorism is a bigot.

You aren't wrong in this ascertain but I think it does take away from the fact that from the outside it does appear that some large portion of the Islamic community is ok with the oppression of gays and women. I think that's a more important topic for discussion and not whether someone may generalize about a religion whose own edicts support their claim about oppression (or even terrorism).

it's not all about being the board bigot police

Yes it is. But it shouldn't be just me. We can't have s valid discussion about this, IMO, if we allow those kinds of statements to fly without instant condemnation.

 

[timschochet]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

I'm just curious about something, and I say this with the best of intent, as I would like to understand. How would you explain to your children what and who these terrorists are? I mean we all acknowledge there are all kinds of terrorists (the IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Shining Path, the SLA, you name it), but how would you explain who these terrorists are that attacked the cafe in Sydney and the WTC in NYC (and etc. x 10,000)?

How would you explain or even discuss who these people are without using the words "muslim" or "Islamic"

Why can't you use the word Muslim or Islamic? You can tell them what the ideology is. You can't tell them that unfortunately this ideology has captured the hearts and minds of a good many Muslims, far too many. And then you tell them that not all Muslims think that way, that the vast majority of American Muslims don't think that way, and that they should treat everyone, including Muslims, with respect.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

I'm just curious about something, and I say this with the best of intent, as I would like to understand. How would you explain to your children what and who these terrorists are? I mean we all acknowledge there are all kinds of terrorists (the IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Shining Path, the SLA, you name it), but how would you explain who these terrorists are that attacked the cafe in Sydney and the WTC in NYC (and etc. x 10,000)?

How would you explain or even discuss who these people are without using the words "muslim" or "Islamic"

You explain that the guy who held the cafe hostage was crazy.

when that kid shot up the movie theater in Colorado, or the guy shot the politician in Arizona, were they associated with their religion? They are crazy. Not sure why people want to rush to lump folks in with others or jump to conclusions.

Technically the guy in the cafe associated himself with Islam, quite publicly.

Was he off his rails? Quite possible that too

yes he was. this guy was an outcast in the muslim community. As he was an outcast in life.

I'm not arguing for either correlation or causality.

But, he brought it into the public sphere, and then why should we not discuss it?

He could ahve asked for the state to drop the charges against that were going to land him in jail. Instead he chose to make a run for the 72 virgins...

right but just because he associated himself doesnt mean anything. especially being that he is crazy. The fact that he asked for an ISIS flag to me was the indicator that this guy was off. This guy associated himself with ISIS because he knew it would get headlines. And then, he got agitated because the media wasnt paying enough attention to him. So he made hostages post to social media, tried calling in radio stations, etc. He was looking for attention.

Im not saying not to discuss it. But i just have a problem with the folks coming in here and bashing all muslims or the entire religion.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

I'm just curious about something, and I say this with the best of intent, as I would like to understand. How would you explain to your children what and who these terrorists are? I mean we all acknowledge there are all kinds of terrorists (the IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Shining Path, the SLA, you name it), but how would you explain who these terrorists are that attacked the cafe in Sydney and the WTC in NYC (and etc. x 10,000)?

How would you explain or even discuss who these people are without using the words "muslim" or "Islamic"

You explain that the guy who held the cafe hostage was crazy.

when that kid shot up the movie theater in Colorado, or the guy shot the politician in Arizona, were they associated with their religion? They are crazy. Not sure why people want to rush to lump folks in with others or jump to conclusions.

Well why did the Columbine kids do it? Why was Rep. Giffords in AZ was shot? Why did Oswald kill Kennedy?

Yes, crazy people have motives too. I would say Diebold was a nazi/OKC worshiper and a video game fanatic, the guy who shot Giffords was nuts but he was also obsessed with hating the government left and right, Oswald was a communist who hated Kennedy for his Cuba policy.

And by the way I wasn't talking about just the Sydney cafe attacker, I also mentioned Bin-Laden and all the other insane attacks in the name of islam since the 1990's at least. They're all crazy, all of them, and nothing else in common? Ok.

 

[timschochet]

They're not crazy in the sense that Diebold was crazy or even Oswald. Islamist terrorists have a political, cultural, and religious philosophy which unifies them.