The Art of the Trade (1 Viewer)

[Hot Sauce Guy]

A discussion broke out in a topic here, and it seemed worthy of its own topic, so here we go.

How do you approach trades? 

How do you feel when approached with a trade? 

What’s your process for evaluating the players involved? 

Do you believe you have more leverage in a deal when approached, or when approaching another team? 

How do you feel about true “lowball” offers, either making or receiving them?  

Personally I detest getting lowballed - I feel it’s disrespectful, and a waste of my time. Rather than a serious opening salvo to start negotiations, I see them as non-serious non-conversation starters as we’re simply too far apart from the getgo.

How do you handle trades? 

*And please, hypothetical examples as part of your answer are fine, but let’s try not to turn this into an assistant coach forum topic with too many R/L specifics. 

 

[cloppbeast]

How do you feel when approached with a trade?

I like the trades where the guy wants one of your players, as apposed to trying to get rid of one of his. You'll get a much better deal with the former. I like to counter with something border line insulting just to see how much he is willing to pay. If he rebuffs, I can always send a more "generous" offer to start it up again.

When a guy is trying to dump somebody, it's usually just a straight reject.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I like the trades where the guy wants one of your players, as apposed to trying to get rid of one of his. You'll get a much better deal with the former. I like to counter with something border line insulting just to see how much he is willing to pay. If he rebuffs, I can always send a more "generous" offer to start it up again.

When a guy is trying to dump somebody, it's usually just a straight reject.

Similar to this, I’m not a big fan of the “I just added this dude off the waiver wire and now I want your 4th round pick for him” guy. 

I mean, sometimes the WW player is in fact valuable, but it still feels kinda slimy to try and flip FA/WW pickups like that. 

 

[Stuart Ullman]

It's much easier to trade for someone on someone's bench than their starting lineup.

 

[cloppbeast]

Similar to this, I’m not a big fan of the “I just added this dude off the waiver wire and now I want your 4th round pick for him” guy. 

I mean, sometimes the WW player is in fact valuable, but it still feels kinda slimy to try and flip FA/WW pickups like that. 

Some leagues allow you to trade your FAAB money. It's about the same thing, right?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Some leagues allow you to trade your FAAB money. It's about the same thing, right?

Whoa - I’ve never heard of that before. 

 

I remember a discussion here about offering to pay your trade partner’s trade fees as part of the deal (ex: we have $5 per player per transaction, so 2:2 = $20 in the kitty) 

some people took great issue with that. Like vehemently opposed the notion of including cash. To this day I’m not sure why that would be a problem. The transaction fees are part of the trade already. If the deal is fair and that’s the nudge that gets it done I don’t see why it’s an issue.  It’s not like saying “I’ll give you X for X + $60 outside of league finances”. which is how some folks painted it. 

 

[BoltBacker]

I try to wait until somebody offers me 6 or 7 waiver wire players for one of my starters. Or at least I must come across that way to league mates. I'm not one of the snow flakes that has to throw a fit when it happens, simply "decline".

At some point somebody accepts an absolutely ridiculous trade(especially in dynasty when one side is in complete "give up" mode) then you are forced to push out ridiculous trade offers or you will get left behind. Rinse, repeat every season.

Trade leagues pretty much suck. I know some people love the "grinding" of FF but when you just bombard the bad teams with terrible trade offers until they waive the white flag and give up it makes me wish I was just playing draft-and-go. At least everyone assembles a team that gives them the best chance to win during the spring/summer.

 

[Interseptopus]

The best trades are when you are approached. Or if you can flip it to them approaching you: 

I had a league mate post in our group app that he was looking for a RB and would trade a WR. I had tried desperately all season to get Sutton from him. Coutee just had his break out game, and he had him too. the guy is embarrassingly deep at WR. I offered him a deal and he did not want it, so I asked him to take a look at my roster and let me know who he would like, that everyone but a few guys were available. He came back with Yeldon for Sutton. I couldn't accept faster. 

I'm a big trader so often I'm the one making first contact, which puts me at a disadvantage, so when I propose a trade, in some cases I shoot low. Some guys take offense to that and are obnoxious about it. I see no reason why I can't start below my max offer. However, I find out pretty quick that if I am going for a guy not on the trade block I should probably offer more than I usually do. But what I'm trying to do is let them know I'm interested and flip the advantage back to me

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I try to wait until somebody offers me 6 or 7 waiver wire players for one of my starters. Or at least I must come across that way to league mates. I'm not one of the snow flakes that has to throw a fit when it happens, simply "decline".

At some point somebody accepts an absolutely ridiculous trade(especially in dynasty when one side is in complete "give up" mode) then you are forced to push out ridiculous trade offers or you will get left behind. Rinse, repeat every season.

Trade leagues pretty much suck. I know some people love the "grinding" of FF but when you just bombard the bad teams with terrible trade offers until they waive the white flag and give up it makes me wish I was just playing draft-and-go. At least everyone assembles a team that gives them the best chance to win during the spring/summer.

Sounds like you need a better league. 

both of my leagues are very competitive. And both are live draft, in person, among friends leagues. The one I commission has several friends-of-friends but they’re all reasonable people.

we have maybe 1-3 trades go through a year. Some years we won’t have a single one.

we have one dude who’s notorious for lowballing, but we all accept that as his schtick.

sometimes the offer will be so terrible that a post will go up on the message board like “no, I will not give you my 3rd round pick for those 3 scrubs you added off waivers, thank you [name].”

that’s more for ballbusting than throwing a fit though. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

But what I'm trying to do is let them know I'm interested and flip the advantage back to me

Great strategy. It’s why I always encourage folks to use the trade block. So few do. 

By listing who you might be willing to deal, others in the league may target them for acquisition & come to you with an offer, giving you the advantage in negotiations. 

Rather than initiating by offering, you initiate passively - it’s a solid way to go. 

 

[Dizzy]

Ah, good stuff here. I was almost falling asleep over at the Lev Bell thread:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you approach trades? 

Typically try to have a plan B ready to go... a counter for the anticipated counter offer. I never just make the offer. This feels very cold to me so I always try to make the case for how it may benefit both teams.

How do you feel when approached with a trade? 

I love it. I'm very active in trying to acquire players from other teams and I'm sure everyone has experienced that it is quite difficult to pull off. Getting offers, seeing trades from others let's me know that guys are actively looking/shopping. One thing that I always do is RESPOND to a trade. If I am not interested, I always let the other owner know ASAP... maybe I counter offer, maybe he/she counter offers, but letting them know your intentions quickly allows them the freedom to keep theuir feet moving and I always appreciate the same in return.

What’s your process for evaluating the players involved? 

Season projections versus current stock price. Especially if both are proven vets... things usually level out to the norm so I take current vs projected into account as well as remaining schedule. Never look at how my player will affect my trade partners team... that's for him to worry about. Only interested in the variance I see in the change at my roster.

Do you believe you have more leverage in a deal when approached, or when approaching another team?

Usually neither... this is where staying active helps your cause. Guys in my league know that I am fond of making deals, so even if I may be swooping in to try and gain an advantage based on a player/owner situation, I may not appear as predatory as the guy that makes a trade off every 5 years. Owner's appearing out of nowhere with an offer always send up red flags.

How do you feel about true “lowball” offers, either making or receiving them? 

No hard feelings either way. Today's lowball offer could be next week's fair deal. It happens... "Hey you still interested in that deal?" Also, you never truly know how another Owner values a guy unless you make inquiries. Another thing that happens every year... "He dropped who? Oh man, I would have given up so & so for him!"

Personally I detest getting lowballed - I feel it’s disrespectful, and a waste of my time. Rather than a serious opening salvo to start negotiations, I see them as non-serious non-conversation starters as we’re simply too far apart from the getgo.

Shouldn't take it personnel. If it truly looks like a poke in the ribs, I'll simply counter with an equally ridiculous trade offer. Sometimes guys just want to see if you're awake.

How do you handle trades? 

I start right after the draft... trying to get guys that I missed out on. Try to make one offer minimum per week during the early season... just to feel guys out. One other guy in our league is a real wheeler-dealer, so we have regular negotiations and makes for a lot of fun. Others are completely paranoid and will rarely trade unless it looks (in their eyes at least) to be lopsided in their favor. These are the once every 5 years guys.

 

[EBF]

A discussion broke out in a topic here, and it seemed worthy of its own topic, so here we go.

How do you approach trades? 

I don't make many trades, but when I do it's usually because either there's a specific player I'm targeting or I just have a need somewhere.

When I'm the seller, I usually try to match up areas where I have a surplus with owners who have a need. Like if I have too many QBs, I'll target the owners with weak QB depth if I'm trying to find a match. Other times I'm just looking to shift a player who I think is overrated. That's more of a rarity though because I don't roster many players that I don't believe in, so I usually want to keep my team intact unless something forces my hand.

How do you feel when approached with a trade? 

Honestly, the majority of trades people offer are very bad. Most offers are the "three nickels for a quarter" variety where people cobble together a bunch of crap and try to get something for nothing. I also get a lot of offers where people are trying to ship off roster fodder for a 3rd-4th round rookie pick. Every now and then something comes along that's worthwhile, but I'm a big skeptic about any offers I receive since 95%+ of them are terrible. It's pretty rare when someone steps up to the plate and offers realistic value for something good. More often than not they're bargain hunting.

How do you feel about true “lowball” offers, either making or receiving them?  

It becomes a "boy who cried wolf" thing where if the same owner keeps sending me stupid stuff, I'll pretty quickly learn not to take him seriously, as certain guys very clearly aren't looking to compromise, but are 100% always looking to get one over on you.

The tricky part is where you end up in a league with 1-2 shameless owners and some weaker owners who can't hang onto their assets. The relentless guys who just send stupid offers all day end up doing pretty well since sooner or later someone inevitably accepts one of their whoppers. You don't want to be in leagues like that unless you're going to be the guy sending ridiculous offers all day, which is not my MO.

 

[Birdie048]

My 12 Team Keeper (ppr) is very selective in trades.  We average < 6 per year include off season/Keeper/draft pick deals.  

I have been accused of "manipulation of inexperienced owners", "using the Dark Side of the Force" and even "mind control" in some of my past trades.  I like to send out "marginal" feeler offers to inquire if a player is available for trade discussion.   I might offer McCoy & K Cole for GB A Jones.  If he accepts, all the better for me....  but most of the time, they counter with something like McCoy & B Cooks as they value A Jones more than his current projections.  

If I receive an offer I like, especially a 2 of mine for 1 of theirs for an upgrade at a key posit, ACCEPT!  No counter; no haggle. 

However,  recently owners are looking like I am in panic mode... they are making lowball offers for Kamara & OBJ!  

For example:  DJ for Kamara; M Gordon for Kamara & John Brown; (both after the Ingram return)...  and my favorite, Mixon for OBJ& Brees after Gio went down. 

To answer the OP - I try to start with a slightly low value offer but I am willing to add/upgrade it to get the deal.  I can overpay slightly if I am targeting a specific player.  

 

[-X-]

Trading in dynasty is essential, re-draft & minimal keeper, not so much.  The commish in a keep-2 league I’m new to offered Hyde and Crowder for A. Cooper right after the draft.

I could tell it was just a feeler to see how easy I’d cave.  At first I said I didn’t want his backup scrubs.  Then I countered by offering Cooper for M. Gordon straight up.  Of course, he didn’t like that and so I rejected his original offer.

Moral of the story is that most of the time, those offering trades are in a position of weakness and/or are trying to screw you over.

I’m sure it’s different in leagues where everyone knows each other, like some here are reporting.

A. Cooper is still riding the pine until he shows something in DAL.  Then I may try to dangle him in front of the commish.

 

[davearm]

Whoa - I’ve never heard of that before. 

 

I remember a discussion here about offering to pay your trade partner’s trade fees as part of the deal (ex: we have $5 per player per transaction, so 2:2 = $20 in the kitty) 

some people took great issue with that. Like vehemently opposed the notion of including cash. To this day I’m not sure why that would be a problem. The transaction fees are part of the trade already. If the deal is fair and that’s the nudge that gets it done I don’t see why it’s an issue.  It’s not like saying “I’ll give you X for X + $60 outside of league finances”. which is how some folks painted it. 

That's exactly what it is.  The fact that the cash is going back into the league is just coincidental.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Another question: what point in the season, or what record is appropriate for a trade offer? 

As an example of what I mean, I’m looking at rosters in my league for compatable partners. I’ll see a couple who have assets I want with needs my strengths can fit. 

But then I see they’re 2-5 or 1-6, and realize they’ll be unlikely to deal unless they’re in a weak division. 

There’s one division with every team at 4-3, with one owner who needs what I have (and has an asset I’d like) - which seems like a much better potential trade partner to target. 

Do you bother making offers to redraft teams that are borderline out of contention?  Is that an ethical issue? 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

That's exactly what it is.  The fact that the cash is going back into the league is just coincidental.

Except no - the cash is already in the league. The transaction fee is $5 per player regardless.

there is no additional cash involved. Just the same cash that would be in the kitty anyway.

thas in no way shape or form the same as offering a $60 payout outside of league finances, for the transaction. It’s not even vaguely related. 

 

[mcd]

How do you feel when approached with a trade? 

Honestly, the majority of trades people offer are very bad. Most offers are the "three nickels for a quarter" variety where people cobble together a bunch of crap and try to get something for nothing. I also get a lot of offers where people are trying to ship off roster fodder for a 3rd-4th round rookie pick. Every now and then something comes along that's worthwhile, but I'm a big skeptic about any offers I receive since 95%+ of them are terrible. It's pretty rare when someone steps up to the plate and offers realistic value for something good. More often than not they're bargain hunting.

I joined a new league this year and took over a team that had been abused in trades and basically had to start over. I have 3 or 4 assets left over and have, at this point, received 62 trade offers from 1 team. They are all offering 3 or 4 players from the bottom of his team for 1 of my guys that has any value. I turn it down, he waives a few guys and offers me the new version of his worst 3 or 4 players. It's kind of sad because every time I go to the league site I have multiple trade offers and kind of get that surge of excitement, but knowing that once I click on them it's probably just more of the same. I'm not sure that the guy even realizes that the team has a new owner this year, the offers just keep coming.

 

[EBF]

I joined a new league this year and took over a team that had been abused in trades and basically had to start over. I have 3 or 4 assets left over and have, at this point, received 62 trade offers from 1 team. They are all offering 3 or 4 players from the bottom of his team for 1 of my guys that has any value. I turn it down, he waives a few guys and offers me the new version of his worst 3 or 4 players. It's kind of sad because every time I go to the league site I have multiple trade offers and kind of get that surge of excitement, but knowing that once I click on them it's probably just more of the same. I'm not sure that the guy even realizes that the team has a new owner this year, the offers just keep coming.

This is where I might get a little passive aggressive and start making those Charles Clay for Todd Gurley offers until the other guy gets a clue.

 

[davearm]

Except no - the cash is already in the league. The transaction fee is $5 per player regardless.

there is no additional cash involved. Just the same cash that would be in the kitty anyway.

thas in no way shape or form the same as offering a $60 payout outside of league finances, for the transaction. It’s not even vaguely related. 

The cash isn't in the league unless the trade is made.  Unless/until the trade is made, the cash is in each owner's pockets.

We agree (I hope) that one guy is out $20, and the other is out $0, instead of it being $10 each normally, right?

So the one guy offered his player(s) plus $10 for the other guy's player(s).

 

[Lionsfan011]

I approach trades by doing 2 things. First is to make my offer in the 90-110% range of what I'm willing to pay, no low balling. I'll only pay above 100% if I have an abundance at a position and can afford the luxury to lose a little in order to shore up another position. Second is to make sure my offer actually makes sense for the other team in terms of helping them upgrade something. I want to get a accept, counter or reject out of my offer, not let it sit out for a week with no response due to being a low ball offer or not being of any benefit to the other team.

I'm initially excited to receive any trade offer but like EBF mentioned, most of them are low balls or don't make any sense to help my team and aren't worth countering. I feel the person receiving the initial trade offer usually has the upper hand in negotiations as they were the one approached in trade and know the other team wants a specific player.

I don't get offended by low ball offers for the most part. I'll just decline them and move on. However there is one owner in one of my leagues that peppers me with a low ball offer every week. I countered one of them to something that was fair for both of us and got rejected and I moved on, no biggie. He comes back the next week with the same low ball offer from the previous week. I declined a couple more of them over the next couple weeks but at this point I don't want to acknowledge his weekly junk offers anymore. I intentionally don't respond to them now and let him revoke them. 

I only make 1-2 trades per year across all my leagues. Most people are only looking to get one over on you and not looking to make fair trades. Makes it tough to get anything done.

 

[-X-]

When I’m offering trades, it’s usually to weak teams to secretly strengthen them so they beat teams in my division I’m battling down the stretch for playoff position.  Normally offer overproducing players for underproducing/benched studs.  Of course, I don’t say a word about what my true intentions are.  That would be unethical.

 

[Interseptopus]

Another question: what point in the season, or what record is appropriate for a trade offer? 

 As an example of what I mean, I’m looking at rosters in my league for compatable partners. I’ll see a couple who have assets I want with needs my strengths can fit. 

But then I see they’re 2-5 or 1-6, and realize they’ll be unlikely to deal unless they’re in a weak division. 

There’s one division with every team at 4-3, with one owner who needs what I have (and has an asset I’d like) - which seems like a much better potential trade partner to target. 

Do you bother making offers to redraft teams that are borderline out of contention?  Is that an ethical issue? 

In dynasty: your scenario above is the perfect chance for you to go grab a guy like Gronk for a relatively lower price. He's not going to help the 1-6 team this year, or even next year maybe, so why not unload him for draft picks or younger players to advance your rebuild. 

In redraft: I've offered a few guys out of contention some offers, but that's because they're not completely out of it. I believe our trade deadline is coming fairly soon, and by then they will officially be out. The 0-7 team in my league has absolutely no one I would want, unless Bell comes back and I can dangle an attractive keeper for Bell. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The cash isn't in the league unless the trade is made.  Unless/until the trade is made, the cash is in each owner's pockets.

We agree (I hope) that one guy is out $20, and the other is out $0, instead of it being $10 each normally, right?

So the one guy offered his player(s) plus $10 for the other guy's player(s).

Right. 

You lose me when you say it’s “the same” as offering someone $60 that they put in their pocket, outside of league finances, as incentive to trade.

those two things are not remotely the same. 

 

[Interseptopus]

Another question to add to the discussion:

What are peoples' thoughts about publicly broadcasting your offers? Say you offer a trade or you have a trade offered to you and you counter, the guy receiving it isn't a big fan of that offer. Goes on the message board (or messaging app) and goes on to essentially broadcast your trade and tell other owners to watch out when trading with you. Doesn't mention you by name, but mentions the players involved in the trade (doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out). Even if it wasn't a final offer, still trolling you to the group.

Thoughts on this? 

My personal opinion is what's said in trade discussions stays in trade discussions. I'm less likely to work with a guy at all who is going to tell the league what I was offering and to watch out when trading with me. 

 

[NYRAGE]

Similar to this, I’m not a big fan of the “I just added this dude off the waiver wire and now I want your 4th round pick for him” guy. 

I mean, sometimes the WW player is in fact valuable, but it still feels kinda slimy to try and flip FA/WW pickups like that. 

In general I agree, but sometimes there are really valuable players on the waiver wire (a new breakout or a low-owned handcuff after a guy gets hurt) and one team simply has the money or position to get him.  That player may have more rest of season value than say a guy drafted in the 4th like Royce Freeman.

 

[Lionsfan011]

I joined a new league this year and took over a team that had been abused in trades and basically had to start over. I have 3 or 4 assets left over and have, at this point, received 62 trade offers from 1 team. They are all offering 3 or 4 players from the bottom of his team for 1 of my guys that has any value. I turn it down, he waives a few guys and offers me the new version of his worst 3 or 4 players. It's kind of sad because every time I go to the league site I have multiple trade offers and kind of get that surge of excitement, but knowing that once I click on them it's probably just more of the same. I'm not sure that the guy even realizes that the team has a new owner this year, the offers just keep coming.

I was typing up my response when you posted yours. Your in a similar spot I'm in although yours is much more extreme. I wouldn't bother responding to him in any shape or form, no rejects or return low ball offers. It'll encourage him to keep sending offers your way. Best thing to do is ignore him outright.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

My personal opinion is what's said in trade discussions stays in trade discussions. I'm less likely to work with a guy at all who is going to tell the league what I was offering and to watch out when trading with me. 

I mentioned this exact thing in the Chubb topic - it’s happened a couple times,  ht only with the dude who consistently low-balls teams with offers of total scrubs for valuable assets in a redraft.

About every other year an offer is made (by same dude) that’s sooooo bad, and likely the 10th terrible offer made by that dude, that out of frustration the recipient of that offer will publicly shame them for it. “No, I do not want 4 bench back of your roster scrubs, 2 of whom you added off the FA list this week, for my injured 2nd round pick who’s coming back next week. Thank you though, [manager name].”

and i’m 100% ok with that. Sometimes ya gotta send a message to the low-ballers - make me a legit offer or F off.  

 

[davearm]

Right. 

You lose me when you say it’s “the same” as offering someone $60 that they put in their pocket, outside of league finances, as incentive to trade.

those two things are not remotely the same. 

The cash is absolutely being used as an incentive to do the trade.  Doesn't really matter (IMO) whether it'll get spent on league fees or groceries.  It's still player(s)+cash for other player(s) only. 

The implication here is that the trade isn't even without the cash.  If the guy would do the deal without the cash, then leave it out.  If he wouldn't do it without the cash, then the problem ought to be obvious.

 

[-X-]

I was typing up my response when you posted yours. Your in a similar spot I'm in although yours is much more extreme. I wouldn't bother responding to him in any shape or form, no rejects or return low ball offers. It'll encourage him to keep sending offers your way. Best thing to do is ignore him outright.

Alternatively, you can start sending him some even worse offers repeatedly until the light bulb goes on.

 

[FF Ninja]

As I was saying in the other trade, if you have serious interest in a player then make a serious offer. You start the dialogue off on the wrong foot and risk the trade talks never even taking flight if you just send a garbage offer. Maybe you personally would take someone seriously if they sent you a garbage offer or you would take your time to craft a fair counter offer, but realize that most people take your garbage offer to mean you:
1) are not serious
2) value their player too low to be a feasible trade partner
3) are not interested in a fair trade

 

[Lionsfan011]

Another question to add to the discussion:

What are peoples' thoughts about publicly broadcasting your offers? Say you offer a trade or you have a trade offered to you and you counter, the guy receiving it isn't a big fan of that offer. Goes on the message board (or messaging app) and goes on to essentially broadcast your trade and tell other owners to watch out when trading with you. Doesn't mention you by name, but mentions the players involved in the trade (doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out). Even if it wasn't a final offer, still trolling you to the group.

Thoughts on this? 

My personal opinion is what's said in trade discussions stays in trade discussions. I'm less likely to work with a guy at all who is going to tell the league what I was offering and to watch out when trading with me. 

Publicly broadcasting offers on the league message board is out of line to me. It's a great way to kill future trade talks between you and potentially other owners. The only exception I'd make to that is someone in mcd's case where he's gotten 62 junk offers in 7-8 weeks. Calling that guy out is justified.

 

[davearm]

Another question to add to the discussion:

What are peoples' thoughts about publicly broadcasting your offers? Say you offer a trade or you have a trade offered to you and you counter, the guy receiving it isn't a big fan of that offer. Goes on the message board (or messaging app) and goes on to essentially broadcast your trade and tell other owners to watch out when trading with you. Doesn't mention you by name, but mentions the players involved in the trade (doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out). Even if it wasn't a final offer, still trolling you to the group.

Thoughts on this? 

My personal opinion is what's said in trade discussions stays in trade discussions. I'm less likely to work with a guy at all who is going to tell the league what I was offering and to watch out when trading with me. 

Absolutely bad form publicizing offers.

In social settings I've "compared notes" a bit one-on-one about offers another owner has sent or received.  That's borderline.  Posting for everyone to see is for sure over the line.

 

[wikkidpissah]

The WW gives me my trade leads. Every transaction, i ask myself duz the owner want the player, filling a hole (bye) or is he unhappy with who he has. I scan that team's roster and see if i can make a love connection which gains me some value. I get either the Caddy or the steak knives every month doing that.

 

[rockaction]

A discussion broke out in a topic here, and it seemed worthy of its own topic, so here we go.

How do you approach trades? 

I like them. I like the dynamism of it. Get to know the league and all. 

How do you feel when approached with a trade? 

Obliged to listen; pressure to accept from within. I'm in sort of a stagnant league and would like to facilitate movement and needs being addressed instead of having blowouts by the end of the year because somebody didn't address them

What’s your process for evaluating the players involved? 

I go on strict talent and team situation. If I have a need, that's what I go on. But I really tend to like particular players and want to not only watch but root for them. I never roster players I don't at least like watching. 

Do you believe you have more leverage in a deal when approached, or when approaching another team? 

I don't think it matters - probably...maybe, when approached

How do you feel about true “lowball” offers, either making or receiving them?  

I listen to all offers. I don't like lowball offers, because I believe in always explaining why you're rejecting the trade

 

[steelers1080]

I'm a shotgun trader. Every 2 weeks or so I'll try to identify a player on each team that I see as a value (Buy low or buy high) and I'll make an offer. Often my offer is a little low, sometimes very low if the player is injured or I'm offering a player that recently blew up. I find this to be a great tactic because although 90% of my trades are turned down, often 1-2 weeks later they'll send me an offer and once that happens a trade often eventually happens. In 1 redraft league there have been 6 trades since the start of the season, I was involved in all 6 trades. Not all these moves help me, but trading is one of my favorite parts of fantasy so I don't really care. I'm in 3rd or 4th in every league, so I'm not doing too terribly. 
Currently loading up on Fournette and Cook in the hopes that they come back healthy in 2-3 weeks and help me push for the playoffs.

Also, I'm not above trading WW assets. Other people in the league don't tend to scrounge the ww like I do, so I'll grab a guy off the WW and if he does well that week I'll make him part of a 2 for 1 trade to increase my assets and then pick another player off the WW. 

Someone in my league (Not Superflex) dropped Rivers and I picked him up even though I owned Big Ben and Andrew Luck because I just opened a roster spot from another trade. Before even 1 week passed I traded him and Hyde for Dalvin Cook. The guy was going to have to start Joe Flacco this week. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The cash is absolutely being used as an incentive to do the trade.  Doesn't really matter (IMO) whether it'll get spent on league fees or groceries.  It's still player(s)+cash for other player(s) only. 

The implication here is that the trade isn't even without the cash.  If the guy would do the deal without the cash, then leave it out.  If he wouldn't do it without the cash, then the problem ought to be obvious.

Of course the cash is an incentive. I specifically said it was an incentive to nudge the otherwise fair deal over the top. There’s zero dospute over that. 

But that cash is simply covering the trade partner’s fees for the trade. Nothing more, and it goes directly into the league kitty where anyone can win it. 

It is not an external incentive of financial benefit that doesn’t go into the kitty, vastly exceeding the value of what’s going into the kitty. In my example of $60, that’s the $10 league transaction fees, plus $50 that goes into the pocket of the recipient of the offer that never goes into league finances. 

i fail to grasp how you’re missing that it’s not remotely the same.  

In the latter example you might as well say “I’ll give you $60 & a scrub for your valuable player, completely outside the league finances” - and that would be inappropriate, cheating, collusion, etc. 

but covering transaction fees isn’t that. The deal described in the hypothetical is a fair deal of 2:2 & the “ill cover your side of the deal” is paid into the league pot.

how can you possibly say these are the same thing? 

Madness.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The WW gives me my trade leads. Every transaction, i ask myself duz the owner want the player, filling a hole or is he unhappy with who he has. I scan that team's roster and see if i can make a love connection which gains me some value. I get either the Caddy or the steak knives every month doing that.

That’s a good observation. I sometimes do the same.

the only thing is that when I’ve made offers of say, a WR to “dude who’s added 3 WRs in 3 weeks” I find they’re usually like, “nah, imma see how dude I just added works out”. 

But I agree it’s a solid way to identify needs of other teams if that need isn’t readily apparent. 

Sort of like posting players to the trade block to fish for offers. You may not see what someone needs until they tell you.

 

[Interseptopus]

Publicly broadcasting offers on the league message board is out of line to me. It's a great way to kill future trade talks between you and potentially other owners. The only exception I'd make to that is someone in mcd's case where he's gotten 62 junk offers in 7-8 weeks. Calling that guy out is justified.

Absolutely bad form publicizing offers.

In social settings I've "compared notes" a bit one-on-one about offers another owner has sent or received.  That's borderline.  Posting for everyone to see is for sure over the line.

Agreed. I was curious if this was a legitimate complaint from me. Told him flat out it makes me not want to deal with him in the future. He has since offered me 4 trades and I have never responded to any of them. Let them expire. 

 

[NYRAGE]

If I'm looking for a specific player, I look at their roster and see what they need. If I don't see a fit that will help him (Team B), then I usually won't bother to make an offer.  I may look to make a trade for a player from another team (Team C) that may Team B though. I would only do that if Team B has interest in doing something like that. However, I'll admit this option is rare because it takes time and work. 

If I'm looking for help at a certain position, I scan the rosters to see who has someone they can trade. I look to see what they need and if I'm a fit for a trade.  I almost always shoot for the 50-50 fair trade value that helps both teams. I hate getting low-balled and usually won't even consider making a deal with a team that low-balls me. It just irks me for some reason.

I see 2 obstacles with even 50-50 offers. 1) You don't know if you both owners value players the same. 2) You don't know if they are even willing to trade that player. Some people are open to trading any player. Others have their favorite players that are untouchable. You can find out the latter. The former could be a problem because even if you think they are wrong, it's going to cost you more to have an acceptable trade. 

It's hard. I do believe in maintaining good relationships, so  I offer fair trades.  That's all I have. Ha.

 

[Lionsfan011]

Agreed. I was curious if this was a legitimate complaint from me. Told him flat out it makes me not want to deal with him in the future. He has since offered me 4 trades and I have never responded to any of them. Let them expire. 

Definite legit complaint. And you're handling it perfectly by ignoring him. He burned the bridge posting it on the message board and you rightfully told him I'm done dealing with you. Re-entering trade negotiations with him at this point would make you look weak and give the other guy the perception he can get away with the antics he pulled.

 

[NeverEnough]

There's no art to it. Some leagues rarely see trades, some all the time. Some people are jerks & send nasty replies to any offer. Some never say anything or even hit accept/or reject & just let offers hang out there. Trading used to be fun. Now it's just a PITA.

The league I run is free, but I want to switch to $ league to make it much more active. Just setting lineups is boring as hell.

 

[Ratbone]

This is a good discussion. But I keep seeing the phrase- lowball offers. But with value being so different to everyone an offer may be lowball to one person but the most the other person would even offer. For instance- Leveon Bell. In redraft and dynasty his value is all over the place. Offering trades is the only way to really gauge the value. 

 

[Interseptopus]

This is a good discussion. But I keep seeing the phrase- lowball offers. But with value being so different to everyone an offer may be lowball to one person but the most the other person would even offer. For instance- Leveon Bell. In redraft and dynasty his value is all over the place. Offering trades is the only way to really gauge the value. 

"Low ball offer" is overused as much as "sleeper" is I feel like. 

A low ball offer is different than a less than market value offer.

A low ball offer, IMO, is a guy offering Jalen Richard for Dalvin Cook. 

A less than market value is fair game, because who doesn't want to get the most value for their players? 

 

[Lionsfan011]

This is a good discussion. But I keep seeing the phrase- lowball offers. But with value being so different to everyone an offer may be lowball to one person but the most the other person would even offer. For instance- Leveon Bell. In redraft and dynasty his value is all over the place. Offering trades is the only way to really gauge the value. 

Low ball to me is consistently seeing trades like my Gurley/Mahommes for his Collins/Cousins or the 3 scrubs for 1 star type offers. It's clearly not in the ballpark. No one would take those.

There's wiggle room for how people value players for sure like your L Bell example. I think the low ball offers are the clear 50 cents for $1 type offers.

 

[davearm]

Of course the cash is an incentive. I specifically said it was an incentive to nudge the otherwise fair deal over the top. There’s zero dospute over that. 

But that cash is simply covering the trade partner’s fees for the trade. Nothing more, and it goes directly into the league kitty where anyone can win it. 

It is not an external incentive of financial benefit that doesn’t go into the kitty, vastly exceeding the value of what’s going into the kitty. In my example of $60, that’s the $10 league transaction fees, plus $50 that goes into the pocket of the recipient of the offer that never goes into league finances. 

i fail to grasp how you’re missing that it’s not remotely the same.  

In the latter example you might as well say “I’ll give you $60 & a scrub for your valuable player, completely outside the league finances” - and that would be inappropriate, cheating, collusion, etc. 

but covering transaction fees isn’t that. The deal described in the hypothetical is a fair deal of 2:2 & the “ill cover your side of the deal” is paid into the league pot.

how can you possibly say these are the same thing? 

Madness.

I'm repeating myself now but if the deal wouldn't get done without the cash, then it's a bogus deal. 

How it gets spent is beside the point.

 

[tangfoot]

Do you bother making offers to redraft teams that are borderline out of contention?  Is that an ethical issue? 

The only time I've ever made consistent trades in redraft was in a winner-take-all format.  Teams that got a couple of losses to start the season were desperate to shake things up and couldn't wait out some vets that were not yet producing.  Apart from that one time, trading in redraft is an exercise in futility.

 

[tangfoot]

Another question to add to the discussion:

What are peoples' thoughts about publicly broadcasting your offers? Say you offer a trade or you have a trade offered to you and you counter, the guy receiving it isn't a big fan of that offer. Goes on the message board (or messaging app) and goes on to essentially broadcast your trade and tell other owners to watch out when trading with you. Doesn't mention you by name, but mentions the players involved in the trade (doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out). Even if it wasn't a final offer, still trolling you to the group.

Thoughts on this? 

My personal opinion is what's said in trade discussions stays in trade discussions. I'm less likely to work with a guy at all who is going to tell the league what I was offering and to watch out when trading with me. 

One of my large leagues has had an epidemic of this.  Several owners have been placed on No Trade Lists because they publicly announce trade offers that they don't lie.  Personally, I think it's bush league to do that.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I'm repeating myself now but if the deal wouldn't get done without the cash, then it's a bogus deal. 

How it gets spent is beside the point.

We’ll have to agree to disagree then, because you think apples are avocados, and I think apples are apples.  

In an “apples to apples” transaction, $20 goes into the pot regardless of who pays it. It stays within league finances, and is then available to whomever wins whatever league payouts. Yes, it helped to nudge the deal along, but it is 100% internal. 

There’s more than just “who pays it” involved.

aloa relevant is where the $ goes, and whether the deal is otherwise fair.

you seem to be content in ignoring both of those, which I see as irreconcilable in our disagreement.

Paying money *not* internal to league finances, and exceeding the amount already included seems pretty obviously different. And if the deal is unfair, and external finances are involved it is outright collusion/cheating. 

You don’t recognize those as being different scenarios? You feel they’re irrelevant so long as $ is involved, even if it’s money that was *already* involved? 

So we shall agree to disagree, as it is apparent we can’t see eye to eye on this issue.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

One of my large leagues has had an epidemic of this.  Several owners have been placed on No Trade Lists because they publicly announce trade offers that they don't lie.  Personally, I think it's bush league to do that.

I’m inclined to agree, other than the “chronic lowballer” scenario I and others have mentioned.

i’ve also seen scenarios go down where team A is negotiating with team B for a player after team B put said player on the trade block. 

Team C comes along and inquires & team B tells team C what A offered & fishes for a better offer.

all done privately, but when team A learned of it they blew up the league message board over it & it became a big broohaha. 

So yeah - that’s so kind of bush league. 

Negotiating with multiple owners over the same players is fine. Telling another team what a team offered for the player as a negotiating tactic is totally bush. 

They could have simply said “ considering another slightly better offer, can you improve your offer” is ok. Naming players/managers notsomuch.