The Death/Loss Of Religion In America (2 Viewers)

[rockaction]

So I've been looking at the rates of disaffiliation in the United States, where "disaffilation" is synonymous with "no religion." I was motivated to do so by a writer named Matt Yglesias, who has posited that a rapid change in societal mores has been the result of declining religious affiliation and piety.

On how great a scale has this disaffiliation happened and when did it happen, if it happened at all? Well, to quote the Pew Research Center, "In 1972, when the GSS first began asking Americans, “What is your religious preference?” 90% identified as Christian and 5% were religiously unaffiliated. In the next two decades, the share of “nones” crept up slowly, reaching 9% in 1993. But then disaffiliation started speeding up – in 1996, the share of unaffiliated Americans jumped to 12%, and two years later it was 14%. This growth has continued, and 29% of Americans now tell the GSS they have “no religion.”7

Pew Research Center has been measuring religious identity since 2007 using a slightly different question wording – “What is your present religion, if any?” – as well as a different set of response options. Since 2007, the percentage of adults who say they are atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular” in the Center’s surveys has grown from 16% to 29%. During this time, the share of U.S. adults who identify as Christian has fallen from 78% to 63%."

So we've seen self-reported agnostic/atheist individuals increase from 1998 to 2023 from 15% to 30%, roughly, of all Americans.

What do you think this means for the Republic. Anything? Nothing?

I'd be interested to hear what this board thinks about the rapid loss of religion in private life.

 

[FairWarning]

I chose bad. Not religious, more spiritual here. I did see a need to reach out when my mother was dying.

 

[AAABatteries]

Voted good but that’s because, IMO, the good that churches do is outweighed by the bad that they and their members do in the name of their religion. Most of the good that these churches do can be done outside of religion. Also, the elephant in the room is the political influence - which we can’t discuss.

 

[cheese]

It doesn’t automatically HAVE to mean anything negative to society, but in practice I think it has and will. In theory, plenty of ways to teach morals and all the other things that religion teaches which do have a positive impact on society. Sorry, but I don’t really see that happening.

Most people are busy and have very little self-discipline. If they aren’t guided by following religion, it can be pretty easy to justify any behavior they want to. Again, that will have an impact.

I have always felt that even if you told me tomorrow that there was no heaven and no hell that following the path of Jesus is the best way to live for an individual and for society as a whole. It impacts mental health, leads to a life of purpose, decreases vulnerability to things like addiction. It also has a way of naturally putting you in healthier relationships.

Anyway, I think it’s a big problem. Not because there is no way for anyone to do all these things outside the religious environment, but because on the whole I don’t think that’s what will happen in the majority of families.

 

[Galileo]

I voted neutral. Overall, I think organized religion is an unnecessary thing. I would love to see it not be used as a tool to dictate to others how they should live their lives. From that perspective I wouldn't mind seeing religion continue to fade away. However, there are clearly many for whom religion serves an important purpose. Cheese raises some legitimate concerns about the practical implications should religion continue to fade away.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Personally, I‘d like us to move further away from religion, as ultimately faith is incongruent with logic.

But I think there are pros and cons to a more secular society, so I voted “neutral”.

 

[Goldminer1]

I voted neutral. I'm not religious, nor do I attend church, but I do believe in some sort of intelligent design. I think for some people, religion is really helpful, and whether the "story" they're buying into is true or not, isn't necessarily the point. If it helps you deal with the reality of our existence, and therefore you help to make our society a better place? Great. At the same time, religion infiltrating other aspects of our society, I find to be dangerous, and antithetical to what most (if not all) religions actually teach.

 

[ChiefD]

I’m pretty sick of people hiding behind their religion to spew hate and in the next sentence say Praise the Lord.

The God I grew up believing in loved everybody.

 

[Navin Johnson]

It doesn’t automatically HAVE to mean anything negative to society, but in practice I think it has and will. In theory, plenty of ways to teach morals and all the other things that religion teaches which do have a positive impact on society. Sorry, but I don’t really see that happening.

Most people are busy and have very little self-discipline. If they aren’t guided by following religion, it can be pretty easy to justify any behavior they want to. Again, that will have an impact.

I have always felt that even if you told me tomorrow that there was no heaven and no hell that following the path of Jesus is the best way to live for an individual and for society as a whole. It impacts mental health, leads to a life of purpose, decreases vulnerability to things like addiction. It also has a way of naturally putting you in healthier relationships.

Anyway, I think it’s a big problem. Not because there is no way for anyone to do all these things outside the religious environment, but because on the whole I don’t think that’s what will happen in the majority of families.

Just as well, religion can be used to justify any behavior they want it to.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I’m pretty sick of people hiding behind their religion to spew hate and in the next sentence say Praise the Lord.

The God I grew up believing in loved everybody.

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.
- Brennan Manning

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I’m pretty sick of people hiding behind their religion to spew hate and in the next sentence say Praise the Lord.

The God I grew up believing in loved everybody.

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.
- Brennan Manning

The decline of Christianity in particular is the church's fault and lays at the feet of people like me who do these things.


Having said that, @rockaction i follow this stuff and if you look at the deeper polling and data that is done, the overwhelming majority of people in this country still have high opinion of Jesus Christ in particlar. Its His followers they cant stand, and frankly with good reason.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

 

[Navin Johnson]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

 

[kupcho1]

Seems to me that the decline in religion tracks with increases in literacy and education

That's not a coincidence

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

Okay. I'm just going to say that that definitely is not what I've observed as mainline protestant over the course of my lifetime.

 

[Murph]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

Well said. In the early 2000s I was firmly on the side of religion is a net negative. Today I'd probably say I'm neutral. I remain irreligious but no longer have the contempt for organized religion I once did (except the Catholic Church but 12 years of Catholic school will do that to a person). Increasingly I find myself envious of those who find solace in religion. But it still does nothing for me personally.

 

[AAABatteries]

Also, we shouldn’t just beat up Christianity - radical Islam and Scientology have done their share of damage to organized religion.

 

[AAABatteries]

And yes, Scientology is a cult but it still hurts religion overall.

 

[cheese]

I’m pretty sick of people hiding behind their religion to spew hate and in the next sentence say Praise the Lord.

The God I grew up believing in loved everybody.

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.
- Brennan Manning

I don’t even disagree that this happens every day, but I’d still be willing to bet that for the purposes of the society that the “hypocritical lifestyle” in question is still better than the average non-religious person is living. Better or worse are relative and subjective terms, but for this particular thread I think it’s fair to agree that right and wrong still matter. So I do think there is going to be (already is) correlation between problems in society and the decline in believers. You can make a counter argument that actions are not inherently good or bad, but I think in terms of their impact on society we generally know which things are bad for it.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

Okay. I'm just going to say that that definitely is not what I've observed as mainline protestant over the course of my lifetime.

As someone who has left the church in the past 8 years, I have witnessed this.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Quick note. This has been and can be a good discussion. Please keep on on the topic though and don't let it veer into political. Thanks.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I’m pretty sick of people hiding behind their religion to spew hate and in the next sentence say Praise the Lord.

The God I grew up believing in loved everybody.

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.
- Brennan Manning

I don’t even disagree that this happens every day, but I’d still be willing to bet that for the purposes of the society that the “hypocritical lifestyle” in question is still better than the average non-religious person is living. Better or worse are relative and subjective terms, but for this particular thread I think it’s fair to agree that right and wrong still matter. So I do think there is going to be (already is) correlation between problems in society and the decline in believers. You can make a counter argument that actions are not inherently good or bad, but I think in terms of their impact on society we generally know which things are bad for it.

Totally disagree with this. There are horrible people on both sides of this but in my observation, believers, for the most part, are less christ-like than their counterparts. Istill have friends in the church that are great people, but they are outnumbered greatly by those who give Christianity a bad name.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but I think at this point it should be obvious the the "conservation of religion" argument was correct. When people abandon Christianity (using this as my example because we're talking the US, but this would hold for any major religion), those people don't become hyper-rational Sam Harris types who really get into science. Instead, they substitute some other form of fantastical thinking instead.

At this point, I think it's undeniable that large segments of our population have transformed their political identities into pseudo-religions, complete with their own dogmas/mantras, liturgical calendars, epistemologies, view of human sin, means of salvation, etc. They even maintain norms against interfaith marriage that have mostly fallen by the wayside among actual religions. If you think religious polarization is bad, and if you think political polarization is bad, then it seems like merging the two should be a five-alarm civic fire, but nobody seems to care and I'm content just to sit back and see how this all plays out.

Edit: I saw Joe's note that just came in while I was typing this. I'm not going to into any detail on the politics = religion thing other than to say that this is not a problem unique to one political party. I'm sure everybody is able to see this quite clearly when they look at the other tribe.

 

[AAABatteries]

I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but I think at this point it should be obvious the the "conservation of religion" argument was correct. When people abandon Christianity (using this as my example because we're talking the US, but this would hold for any major religion), those people don't become hyper-rational Sam Harris types who really get into science. Instead, they substitute some other form of fantastical thinking instead.

At this point, I think it's undeniable that large segments of our population have transformed their political identities into pseudo-religions, complete with their own dogmas/mantras, liturgical calendars, epistemologies, view of human sin, means of salvation, etc. They even maintain norms against interfaith marriage that have mostly fallen by the wayside among actual religions. If you think religious polarization is bad, and if you think political polarization is bad, then it seems like merging the two should be a five-alarm civic fire, but nobody seems to care and I'm content just to sit back and see how this all plays out.

Edit: I saw Joe's note that just came in while I was typing this. I'm not going to into any detail on the politics = religion thing other than to say that this is not a problem unique to one political party. I'm sure everybody is able to see this quite clearly when they look at the other tribe.

I would agree somewhat with this - how I would frame it is I think for years it was religious people who wanted to tell others how to live and now we have just about everybody wanting to tell people how to live their lives. Whether it’s from a religious or political angle, I don’t care - don’t tell me how to live.

 

[AAABatteries]

To further that point though - I think both are annoying but religious people more so because they, IMO, are more prone to be hypocritical and not follow the same rules they want others to follow.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

I grew up around the church but have never had any concrete faith to speak of.

I think religion is a net positive. Not all of it and certainly not what you see on TV. I see its purpose and the older I get the clearer that seems to be.

I’d also be down with them paying some taxes.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but I think at this point it should be obvious the the "conservation of religion" argument was correct. When people abandon Christianity (using this as my example because we're talking the US, but this would hold for any major religion), those people don't become hyper-rational Sam Harris types who really get into science. Instead, they substitute some other form of fantastical thinking instead.

At this point, I think it's undeniable that large segments of our population have transformed their political identities into pseudo-religions, complete with their own dogmas/mantras, liturgical calendars, epistemologies, view of human sin, means of salvation, etc. They even maintain norms against interfaith marriage that have mostly fallen by the wayside among actual religions. If you think religious polarization is bad, and if you think political polarization is bad, then it seems like merging the two should be a five-alarm civic fire, but nobody seems to care and I'm content just to sit back and see how this all plays out.

Edit: I saw Joe's note that just came in while I was typing this. I'm not going to into any detail on the politics = religion thing other than to say that this is not a problem unique to one political party. I'm sure everybody is able to see this quite clearly when they look at the other tribe.

I would agree somewhat with this - how I would frame it is I think for years it was religious people who wanted to tell others how to live and now we have just about everybody wanting to tell people how to live their lives. Whether it’s from a religious or political angle, I don’t care - don’t tell me how to live.

They’re not exactly tough rules to follow. Don’t kill anybody, don’t bang your buddies wife. Don’t steal. I can get behind a few of them.

 

[Snoopy]

Also depends on the specific religion. Massive rules and hypocrisy have driven many people into leaving religion completely. I saw that in my former church but still see good points in Jesus' teachings and switched to a church that IMO reflected those a lot better.

 

[AAABatteries]

I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but I think at this point it should be obvious the the "conservation of religion" argument was correct. When people abandon Christianity (using this as my example because we're talking the US, but this would hold for any major religion), those people don't become hyper-rational Sam Harris types who really get into science. Instead, they substitute some other form of fantastical thinking instead.

At this point, I think it's undeniable that large segments of our population have transformed their political identities into pseudo-religions, complete with their own dogmas/mantras, liturgical calendars, epistemologies, view of human sin, means of salvation, etc. They even maintain norms against interfaith marriage that have mostly fallen by the wayside among actual religions. If you think religious polarization is bad, and if you think political polarization is bad, then it seems like merging the two should be a five-alarm civic fire, but nobody seems to care and I'm content just to sit back and see how this all plays out.

Edit: I saw Joe's note that just came in while I was typing this. I'm not going to into any detail on the politics = religion thing other than to say that this is not a problem unique to one political party. I'm sure everybody is able to see this quite clearly when they look at the other tribe.

I would agree somewhat with this - how I would frame it is I think for years it was religious people who wanted to tell others how to live and now we have just about everybody wanting to tell people how to live their lives. Whether it’s from a religious or political angle, I don’t care - don’t tell me how to live.

They’re not exactly tough rules to follow. Don’t kill anybody, don’t bang your buddies wife. Don’t steal. I can get behind a few of them.

I’m supportive of most of them too and we have codified a lot of them in to law and for good reason. I’m talking about the other ones and also about the hypocrisy of them doing those things while pushing for others not to.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but I think at this point it should be obvious the the "conservation of religion" argument was correct. When people abandon Christianity (using this as my example because we're talking the US, but this would hold for any major religion), those people don't become hyper-rational Sam Harris types who really get into science. Instead, they substitute some other form of fantastical thinking instead.

At this point, I think it's undeniable that large segments of our population have transformed their political identities into pseudo-religions, complete with their own dogmas/mantras, liturgical calendars, epistemologies, view of human sin, means of salvation, etc. They even maintain norms against interfaith marriage that have mostly fallen by the wayside among actual religions. If you think religious polarization is bad, and if you think political polarization is bad, then it seems like merging the two should be a five-alarm civic fire, but nobody seems to care and I'm content just to sit back and see how this all plays out.

Edit: I saw Joe's note that just came in while I was typing this. I'm not going to into any detail on the politics = religion thing other than to say that this is not a problem unique to one political party. I'm sure everybody is able to see this quite clearly when they look at the other tribe.

I would agree somewhat with this - how I would frame it is I think for years it was religious people who wanted to tell others how to live and now we have just about everybody wanting to tell people how to live their lives. Whether it’s from a religious or political angle, I don’t care - don’t tell me how to live.

They’re not exactly tough rules to follow. Don’t kill anybody, don’t bang your buddies wife. Don’t steal. I can get behind a few of them.

Some of the rules are good, others, not so much. Which person do you think is better though? The person who doesn't kill, bang your wife or steal because he thinks they are wrong or the person who doesn't because of the threat of eternal damnation?

 

[guru_007]

Most all wars throughout the history of humanity have been fought over two things. Scarcity of resources and religion. As such, any discussion about religion is most certainly going to get animated as it's a hot topic.
I was raised in a religious background, fell away from it from 18-25 or so, and then moved backed to it in my late 20's. Moved away from it during Covid. I raised all of my children in my religious background as my wife is agnostic, and they all fell away form it as they reached 18-20, so I certainly feel the loss of religion.
I voted neutral, but I think people should just all love and accept one another. Just because I believe one thing does not mean someone else can't believe something else. Of course, I'm an old and an idealist and unrealistic. So who knows.

 

[FairWarning]

Also depends on the specific religion. Massive rules and hypocrisy have driven many people into leaving religion completely. I saw that in my former church but still see good points in Jesus' teachings and switched to a church that IMO reflected those a lot better.

I see a lot more non-denominational churches now.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but I think at this point it should be obvious the the "conservation of religion" argument was correct. When people abandon Christianity (using this as my example because we're talking the US, but this would hold for any major religion), those people don't become hyper-rational Sam Harris types who really get into science. Instead, they substitute some other form of fantastical thinking instead.

At this point, I think it's undeniable that large segments of our population have transformed their political identities into pseudo-religions, complete with their own dogmas/mantras, liturgical calendars, epistemologies, view of human sin, means of salvation, etc. They even maintain norms against interfaith marriage that have mostly fallen by the wayside among actual religions. If you think religious polarization is bad, and if you think political polarization is bad, then it seems like merging the two should be a five-alarm civic fire, but nobody seems to care and I'm content just to sit back and see how this all plays out.

Edit: I saw Joe's note that just came in while I was typing this. I'm not going to into any detail on the politics = religion thing other than to say that this is not a problem unique to one political party. I'm sure everybody is able to see this quite clearly when they look at the other tribe.

I would agree somewhat with this - how I would frame it is I think for years it was religious people who wanted to tell others how to live and now we have just about everybody wanting to tell people how to live their lives. Whether it’s from a religious or political angle, I don’t care - don’t tell me how to live.

They’re not exactly tough rules to follow. Don’t kill anybody, don’t bang your buddies wife. Don’t steal. I can get behind a few of them.

Some of the rules are good, others, not so much. Which person do you think is better though? The person who doesn't kill, bang your wife or steal because he thinks they are wrong or the person who doesn't because of the threat of eternal damnation?

I think that “ Et3R/\/@L DamNaT10N” is hyperbolic and just means - we don’t know what happens after we die but maybe if we’re a total **** while alive, there’s a penalty for that.

 

[ChiefD]

Also depends on the specific religion. Massive rules and hypocrisy have driven many people into leaving religion completely. I saw that in my former church but still see good points in Jesus' teachings and switched to a church that IMO reflected those a lot better.

Yeah, this is me, other than I don't belong to any church anymore.

I've always struggled with the idea that Jesus and God actually existed and that there is this higher power out there to try and get to after death.

But I can certainly follow a guy who taught about Love Thy Neighbor. To me THE BEST part of the Bible.

Follow that part and we then have peace. But from what I've seen from some Christians is Love Thy Neighbor.......except for all these certain groups of people.

Eff that. That's when organized religion loses me.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but I think at this point it should be obvious the the "conservation of religion" argument was correct. When people abandon Christianity (using this as my example because we're talking the US, but this would hold for any major religion), those people don't become hyper-rational Sam Harris types who really get into science. Instead, they substitute some other form of fantastical thinking instead.

At this point, I think it's undeniable that large segments of our population have transformed their political identities into pseudo-religions, complete with their own dogmas/mantras, liturgical calendars, epistemologies, view of human sin, means of salvation, etc. They even maintain norms against interfaith marriage that have mostly fallen by the wayside among actual religions. If you think religious polarization is bad, and if you think political polarization is bad, then it seems like merging the two should be a five-alarm civic fire, but nobody seems to care and I'm content just to sit back and see how this all plays out.

Edit: I saw Joe's note that just came in while I was typing this. I'm not going to into any detail on the politics = religion thing other than to say that this is not a problem unique to one political party. I'm sure everybody is able to see this quite clearly when they look at the other tribe.

I would agree somewhat with this - how I would frame it is I think for years it was religious people who wanted to tell others how to live and now we have just about everybody wanting to tell people how to live their lives. Whether it’s from a religious or political angle, I don’t care - don’t tell me how to live.

They’re not exactly tough rules to follow. Don’t kill anybody, don’t bang your buddies wife. Don’t steal. I can get behind a few of them.

Some of the rules are good, others, not so much. Which person do you think is better though? The person who doesn't kill, bang your wife or steal because he thinks they are wrong or the person who doesn't because of the threat of eternal damnation?

I think that “ Et3R/\/@L DamNaT10N” is hyperbolic and just means - we don’t know what happens after we die but maybe if we’re a total **** while alive, there’s a penalty for that.

My point still stands. Whther you are refraining from such behavior because of the threat of eternal damnation, karma or whatever doesn't matter

 

[Charlie Steiner]

The question is flawed; should be about the death/loss of belief in God/higher power. Religion is an easy target.

As for the state of the world, it's same as day one. Humans haven't changed, only our tools and toys.

As for what happens after this life, I have my own thoughts and will just have to wait and see how close I got it when I go.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but I think at this point it should be obvious the the "conservation of religion" argument was correct. When people abandon Christianity (using this as my example because we're talking the US, but this would hold for any major religion), those people don't become hyper-rational Sam Harris types who really get into science. Instead, they substitute some other form of fantastical thinking instead.

At this point, I think it's undeniable that large segments of our population have transformed their political identities into pseudo-religions, complete with their own dogmas/mantras, liturgical calendars, epistemologies, view of human sin, means of salvation, etc. They even maintain norms against interfaith marriage that have mostly fallen by the wayside among actual religions. If you think religious polarization is bad, and if you think political polarization is bad, then it seems like merging the two should be a five-alarm civic fire, but nobody seems to care and I'm content just to sit back and see how this all plays out.

Edit: I saw Joe's note that just came in while I was typing this. I'm not going to into any detail on the politics = religion thing other than to say that this is not a problem unique to one political party. I'm sure everybody is able to see this quite clearly when they look at the other tribe.

I would agree somewhat with this - how I would frame it is I think for years it was religious people who wanted to tell others how to live and now we have just about everybody wanting to tell people how to live their lives. Whether it’s from a religious or political angle, I don’t care - don’t tell me how to live.

They’re not exactly tough rules to follow. Don’t kill anybody, don’t bang your buddies wife. Don’t steal. I can get behind a few of them.

Some of the rules are good, others, not so much. Which person do you think is better though? The person who doesn't kill, bang your wife or steal because he thinks they are wrong or the person who doesn't because of the threat of eternal damnation?

I think that “ Et3R/\/@L DamNaT10N” is hyperbolic and just means - we don’t know what happens after we die but maybe if we’re a total **** while alive, there’s a penalty for that.

My point still stands. Whther you are refraining from such behavior because of the threat of eternal damnation, karma or whatever doesn't matter

I was basically responding to the “dont tell me how to live my life” portion.

I don’t disagree but don’t you think we need some guidelines on how to behave? I think without some suggestions on how to live a “good” life there would be chaos.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Matt Y has the cart before the horse IMO.

The total lack of morals and ethics among the publicly religious -- dominated by grifters and the outright evil -- has created a branding problem for religion and undermined faith. The calls are coming from inside the house.

And I think that's a terrible thing.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I’m pretty sick of people hiding behind their religion to spew hate and in the next sentence say Praise the Lord.

The God I grew up believing in loved everybody.

"The God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister"

 

[MrJimiT]

I still want to believe and accept the fact that most religious organizations, at their core, hold to a good moral and ethical standard of sorts. A "personal" behavior check & balance if you will. If those "personal" checks and balances for the individual are applied, then it stands to reason that good morals and ethics helps society as a whole. The blurring of these ethics with politics has caused a lot of callousness in our lifetimes - causing an increase in religous rejection as a society. At the "creed" level, it is not the fault of the organization. But rather, the hypocrisy of the person and the influences of group-think.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

I think the percentage of people that identify as Christian but either don't go to church or do go to church only because it teaches values rather than they believe in God/Jesus is at all time high and going to get higher. I grew up baptist and still go to catholic church mostly because my wife 100% believes and I go to support her. It's just something you do in a marriage of many many years. Some thing s aren't worth the argument and she mostly knows anyway. But science has kinda proven that the concepts of deities on earth were fictionalized by cultures to make people behave a certain way. I don't yet believe science has disproven the concept of a a God or higher being though ... the big bang dies not disprove that IMO,

I will also argue that religions that preach peace, forgiveness, etc are the exact opposite of what the world needs. I firmly believe in a dog eat dog world without forgiveness for major violations of the existing culture. For instance ...criminals should be treated worse than whatever they did to their victims. We tend to give people xx years for a murder. Well, I think they should be put to death in a more gruesome way than what they did to their victim. And the same for all violent offenses. This Christian concept that we should be lenient or forgive people ...therein lies the problem. It really is a new concept in the historical perspective. The world would be a safer place if we did not forgive but instead punished. People would fall in line with the civil norms.

 

[The Commish]

At this point, I think it's undeniable that large segments of our population have transformed their political identities into pseudo-religions, complete with their own dogmas/mantras,

I'll say "transformed" is being very generous. I personally think it's appropriate to say they have flat out replaced their religious learnings/beliefs with politics. Politics have become the golden calf Christians were warned about thousands of years ago.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I think the percentage of people that identify as Christian but either don't go to church or do go to church only because it teaches values rather than they believe in God/Jesus is at all time high and going to get higher. I grew up baptist and still go to catholic church mostly because my wife 100% believes and I go to support her. It's just something you do in a marriage of many many years. Some thing s aren't worth the argument and she mostly knows anyway. But science has kinda proven that the concepts of deities on earth were fictionalized by cultures to make people behave a certain way. I don't yet believe science has disproven the concept of a a God or higher being though ... the big bang dies not disprove that IMO,

I will also argue that religions that preach peace, forgiveness, etc are the exact opposite of what the world needs. I firmly believe in a dog eat dog world without forgiveness for major violations of the existing culture. For instance ...criminals should be treated worse than whatever they did to their victims. We tend to give people xx years for a murder. Well, I think they should be put to death in a more gruesome way than what they did to their victim. And the same for all violent offenses. This Christian concept that we should be lenient or forgive people ...therein lies the problem. It really is a new concept in the historical perspective. The world would be a safer place if we did not forgive but instead punished. People would fall in line with the civil norms.

You sound like a big Old Testament fan.

 

[Steeler]

The question is flawed; should be about the death/loss of belief in God/higher power. Religion is an easy target.

Organized religion is giving God a bad name. All the negative things people are saying about religion are not in alignment with the Bible.

 

[The Commish]

Also depends on the specific religion. Massive rules and hypocrisy have driven many people into leaving religion completely. I saw that in my former church but still see good points in Jesus' teachings and switched to a church that IMO reflected those a lot better.

I see a lot more non-denominational churches now.

I wouldn't be too fooled by this. I am willing to bet most of the "non-denominational churches" you see today are likely funded/supported by SBC....even in northern and midwestern areas. That is the case for every single one I have been to here in Florida and the Carolinas. It takes digging, but you can find it in their financials.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but I think at this point it should be obvious the the "conservation of religion" argument was correct. When people abandon Christianity (using this as my example because we're talking the US, but this would hold for any major religion), those people don't become hyper-rational Sam Harris types who really get into science. Instead, they substitute some other form of fantastical thinking instead.

At this point, I think it's undeniable that large segments of our population have transformed their political identities into pseudo-religions, complete with their own dogmas/mantras, liturgical calendars, epistemologies, view of human sin, means of salvation, etc. They even maintain norms against interfaith marriage that have mostly fallen by the wayside among actual religions. If you think religious polarization is bad, and if you think political polarization is bad, then it seems like merging the two should be a five-alarm civic fire, but nobody seems to care and I'm content just to sit back and see how this all plays out.

Edit: I saw Joe's note that just came in while I was typing this. I'm not going to into any detail on the politics = religion thing other than to say that this is not a problem unique to one political party. I'm sure everybody is able to see this quite clearly when they look at the other tribe.

I would agree somewhat with this - how I would frame it is I think for years it was religious people who wanted to tell others how to live and now we have just about everybody wanting to tell people how to live their lives. Whether it’s from a religious or political angle, I don’t care - don’t tell me how to live.

They’re not exactly tough rules to follow. Don’t kill anybody, don’t bang your buddies wife. Don’t steal. I can get behind a few of them.

Some of the rules are good, others, not so much. Which person do you think is better though? The person who doesn't kill, bang your wife or steal because he thinks they are wrong or the person who doesn't because of the threat of eternal damnation?

I think that “ Et3R/\/@L DamNaT10N” is hyperbolic and just means - we don’t know what happens after we die but maybe if we’re a total **** while alive, there’s a penalty for that.

My point still stands. Whther you are refraining from such behavior because of the threat of eternal damnation, karma or whatever doesn't matter

I was basically responding to the “dont tell me how to live my life” portion.

I don’t disagree but don’t you think we need some guidelines on how to behave? I think without some suggestions on how to live a “good” life there would be chaos.

Nothing wrong with guidelines but if you are taking them from the same book that states "Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." yo umay run into problems.

 

[wlwiles]

Also depends on the specific religion. Massive rules and hypocrisy have driven many people into leaving religion completely. I saw that in my former church but still see good points in Jesus' teachings and switched to a church that IMO reflected those a lot better.

I see a lot more non-denominational churches now.

I see this as well where I live, combined with an age/generational shift. The non-denominational churches are filled with young parents with small children. At least here among the people I've talked to, the reasoning is simple. The ND community is much more casual, come and go as you please, wear what you like, no strict kneeling/standing/sitting/reciting, let's Love Thy Neighbor a little more and fire and brimstone a little less.

I get it. I grew up attending Catholic mass every Sunday morning at 0830, and attended Catholic school from 7th-12th grade. Once I got "of age" and my attendance slacked I started getting comments in the grocery store like "I haven't seen you at church in a while". I don't need the structure of a mass in order to be religious, and I agree with the Amy character on Big Bang Theory: "I don't object to the concept of a deity, but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance." .

 

[Rich Conway]

I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but I think at this point it should be obvious the the "conservation of religion" argument was correct. When people abandon Christianity (using this as my example because we're talking the US, but this would hold for any major religion), those people don't become hyper-rational Sam Harris types who really get into science. Instead, they substitute some other form of fantastical thinking instead.

This is true as far as it goes for "non-rational people who leave a church". That is, someone non-rational who becomes non-religious isn't suddenly going to become rational.

However, I'd argue that those who grow up without religion from the start have a better shot at rationality as the basis of their overall outlook on life.

 

[Scoresman]

Voted good, but I would like to clarify that organized religion is what I would like to see fade away.

 

[dgreen]

Seems to me that the decline in religion tracks with increases in literacy and education

That's not a coincidence

I do think this is a factor. A lot of people today have a lot of questions; questions that people didn't have in previous centuries. Yes, the church needs better answers, but mostly they simply need to be places where questions can be asked without condemnation.