The elephant in the room for dynasty leagues... (1 Viewer)

[ghostguy123]

What about just having a high entry fee? I've got to imagine that would weed out all the casual players.

Doesn't work in 750 dollar leagues. How high we need to go?

 

[IHEARTFF]

Higher entry fee won't work.

What about just having a high entry fee? I've got to imagine that would weed out all the casual players.

Doesn't work in 750 dollar leagues. How high we need to go?

That's not going to work. News flash, some rich people like to gamble.

 

[Bruce Hammond]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

 

[ghostguy123]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

In the "high stakes" leagues, this happens a lot, but I am ok with it there. 12 guys who don't know each other, playing it was is SUPPOSED to be the most competitive leagues, playing for a lot of money................anything goes there. Last thing I wanna hear there is people whining about how someone spends more time in a league like that.

don't join a high stakes league if you are gonna twiddle your thumbs and not be active or try

 

[jurb26]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

I'd like to know the trade as well...

 

[Bruce Hammond]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

Nah, guys read this board. I don't want to expose guys here.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

Nah, guys read this board. I don't want to expose guys here.

Since you already mentioned the trade and the records of the participants etc, i'm sure they're not going to need a map to figure it out. I'm just curious if the trade is as bad as you think it is.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

Nah, guys read this board. I don't want to expose guys here.

As long as the guys are't Lt. Columbo and Sherlock Holmes, I'm sure you haven't exposed anyone already.

 

[Bruce Hammond]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

Nah, guys read this board. I don't want to expose guys here.

Since you already mentioned the trade and the records of the participants etc, i'm sure they're not going to need a map to figure it out. I'm just curious if the trade is as bad as you think it is.

Good point. OK, sure. 9-3 team gave WR Gordon CLE, 2.06 to 4-8 team for RB Martin TB, 2.04, 4.03. Martin is a consensus top 5 dynasty RB, Gordon is likely gone for the year, and the team with the better record somehow even negotiated slightly better picks on top of that. And it's not just this suspension, it's future suspension risk as well. Plus if the Browns have any sense they will be scaling back their reliance on Gordon in their offense going forward. His career year in 2013 won't ever be repeated.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Higher entry fee won't work.

What about just having a high entry fee? I've got to imagine that would weed out all the casual players.

Doesn't work in 750 dollar leagues. How high we need to go?

That's not going to work. News flash, some rich people like to gamble.

Right.. And someone has to lose regardless

 

[ghostguy123]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

Nah, guys read this board. I don't want to expose guys here.

Since you already mentioned the trade and the records of the participants etc, i'm sure they're not going to need a map to figure it out. I'm just curious if the trade is as bad as you think it is.

Good point. OK, sure. 9-3 team gave WR Gordon CLE, 2.06 to 4-8 team for RB Martin TB, 2.04, 4.03. Martin is a consensus top 5 dynasty RB, Gordon is likely gone for the year, and the team with the better record somehow even negotiated slightly better picks on top of that. And it's not just this suspension, it's future suspension risk as well. Plus if the Browns have any sense they will be scaling back their reliance on Gordon in their offense going forward. His career year in 2013 won't ever be repeated.

That is nowhere near as lopsided as you think. I don't think it is lopsided at all.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

Nah, guys read this board. I don't want to expose guys here.

Since you already mentioned the trade and the records of the participants etc, i'm sure they're not going to need a map to figure it out. I'm just curious if the trade is as bad as you think it is.

Good point. OK, sure. 9-3 team gave WR Gordon CLE, 2.06 to 4-8 team for RB Martin TB, 2.04, 4.03. Martin is a consensus top 5 dynasty RB, Gordon is likely gone for the year, and the team with the better record somehow even negotiated slightly better picks on top of that. And it's not just this suspension, it's future suspension risk as well. Plus if the Browns have any sense they will be scaling back their reliance on Gordon in their offense going forward. His career year in 2013 won't ever be repeated.

That is nowhere near as lopsided as you think. I don't think it is lopsided at all.

With the risks associated with Gordon, it's surely lopsided.

 

[Noah Davis]

And you like to justify your BS trades just for the sake of it?

Would you rather have Kuechly and some schuck like Dwayne Bowe or Sammy Watkins and someone like DeAndre Levy?

The guy would have been much better off keeping his #1 pick. Crappy teams rarely, if ever, benefit by trading their #1 picks. But you know that already and it's why you offered a bunch of junk for it and then talked the guy into why it helps him.

You either don't play IDP/dynasty or have a scoring system that doesn't reflect LB production in fantasy points. You honestly do not get how valuable Keuchly is in some IDP leagues and are seriously undervaluing him.

I had two of the top-ten IDP LB scorers and my top guy scored 125 pts less than the top LBer. The top QBs always hold a significant point advantage over mid-level #1 QBs in our league. Only a handful of RBs do that but outside of Peterson that revolves to different guys each year. At TE it was Gronk and Jimmy. At LB that same significant point advantage holds true so if you hold one of those guys you hold a significant scoring advantage and if you are able to land an IDP LB stud at the begining of his career you'll have that advantage over the rest of the league for a long time. Its just like the guys who owned Gronk or Jimmy at TE or who hold AdP at RB or Brees or Aarron/Peyton at QB. I have no idea why you can't see that unless you don't play IDP or are just wanting to argue your point for arugment's sake.

Add, I was not trading for the 3rd pick in the 2014 draft. I was trading for a future #1 TBD. At the time of the deal I got nothing last year to help my team. My team lost a stud IDP LB and RB depth. The only advantage I got last year was that I was able to clear room on my bench but I like to operate with a skinny bench so I can manuever to cover BYEs and I like open spots on my bench to pluck developmental guys for the future.

Helping out weak teams so they can knock of my competition and C-blocking their ability to make preditory trades while making my own lopsided deal to get their #1 prevented any preditor from getting their fangs into his top pick in a 'bad trade'. I did not offer a bad trade.

You acquired a future #1 pick from a terrible team. You knew you were acquiring a top 3 pick. You even said he would be winless without your generous offer so you cost him the 1.01 pick.

I don't care if Luke Kuechly produces LB1 stats for the next decade no one in their right mind is trading the 1.01 pick for him even if they get a bunch of other "stuff" in addition to it. Go check out the Sammy Watkins trades going on right now. Go see where Sammy Watkins is drafted in a startup right now and where Kuechly gets drafted. It's not even close.

I'm not faulting YOU for your trade. I'm giving you crap because you're acting like you're doing some schmuck owner that doesn't know what he's doing a favor. You're not. You're doing yourself a favor.

And I play in plenty of IDP leagues. And pretty damn successful in them too. I totally understand the value of Linebackers, draft picks, and skill players.

It really depends on the IDP scoring. 4 points per sack, 5 points per interception, 1 point per tackle, 6 points per TD, 4 points per forced fumble, 2 points per fumble recovery and Kuechly is equivalent to an RB2.

 

[jurb26]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

Nah, guys read this board. I don't want to expose guys here.

Since you already mentioned the trade and the records of the participants etc, i'm sure they're not going to need a map to figure it out. I'm just curious if the trade is as bad as you think it is.

Good point. OK, sure. 9-3 team gave WR Gordon CLE, 2.06 to 4-8 team for RB Martin TB, 2.04, 4.03. Martin is a consensus top 5 dynasty RB, Gordon is likely gone for the year, and the team with the better record somehow even negotiated slightly better picks on top of that. And it's not just this suspension, it's future suspension risk as well. Plus if the Browns have any sense they will be scaling back their reliance on Gordon in their offense going forward. His career year in 2013 won't ever be repeated.

That is nowhere near as lopsided as you think. I don't think it is lopsided at all.

It's certainly not a good trade. I don't think it's not as bad as I expected but it's bad.

 

[ghostguy123]

If I am in a rebuild, will take Gordon over Martin.

I realize Martin has more market value right now, but not like he is some sure thing either.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

What about just having a high entry fee? I've got to imagine that would weed out all the casual players.

Doesn't work in 750 dollar leagues. How high we need to go?

That's not going to work. News flash, some rich people like to gamble.

Ok, high stakes league where only people with an AGI of under $40k/year are allowed to play

 

[Ruffrodys05]

I am commissioner of a 12-team, 6-player keeper league, heading into our 13th year. No, it's not a dynasty league in the truest essence of those types of leagues, but it's close. One point I want to make before I discuss further is that I have never been the "dictator" type of commissioner. Every member of the league has a say in how the league operates.

We have had many instances over the years of the wolves fleecing the sheep. The problem is threefold. The predator pounces on a perceived weakness, the prey unknowingly falls victim and most of the rest of the league screams foul.

During our second year we had many league members screaming foul over a number of trades the previous year that they felt were lopsided. So, we tried a Trades Committee in year three. This 3-member committee's job was to review all trades and approve or revoke any trade. IT DID NOT WORK. The Trade Committee lasted exactly one year and was promptly disbanded. That year of the Trades Committee was the most contentious year of any we have had.

People value players differently. People value draft picks differently. There is never, and has never been, a true consensus within the league of "value" on either of these trade commodities.

Whether it's right or wrong we have basically let owners do what owners do. We have no tried and true rule in place to avoid or discourage fleecing. There is no formula that anyone can point to and say it works all the time.

We've basically adopted this philosophy: You paid your dues, it's your team to run as you see fit. Is it perfect? No, absolutely not. But who am I to tell you that you can't do what you want to with your team? Aside of collusion, there is no instance where I'm going to step in and say, "You can't do that!"

For a $75 buy-in we average $1500 total cash prizes each year. That is the incentive to be successful. I wish I could provide a way for leagues (any type of league) to minimize the effects of wolves fleecing sheep, but in my experience it isn't really possible without opening up more cans of smelly worms.

Sorry guys, didn't mean to ramble on....

 

[Buckna]

Higher entry fee won't work.

What about just having a high entry fee? I've got to imagine that would weed out all the casual players.

Doesn't work in 750 dollar leagues. How high we need to go?

That's not going to work. News flash, some rich people like to gamble.

Yeah entry fee means little. Some of the worst trades in the Annual Trade Rape Thread... sorry, I meant "Official Dynasty Trades" threads are the high stakes leagues like FFPC...

 

[Buckna]

Problem I see with the relegation idea is that bad record =/ bad owner. Very rarely can teams stay dominate forever, that's the whole point of the rookie draft structure. At some point you blow up your team and rebuild, how many times have people said "if I cant be first, I want to be last?"

The only times I've seen teams stay dominate indefinitely is if they are continually fleecing other teams every year. And there already exists ways to get around that, kick the bad owners or just quit the league and join another. Yes that sucks but it happens all the time.

Most of the time when I've seen super teams built (either "legitimately" or in unsavory ways) the league usually folds unless you can recycle the sheep wholesale. Kind of ironic since the point of "dynasty" is to build a super strong dynasty for the ages.

 

[gianmarco]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

Nah, guys read this board. I don't want to expose guys here.

Since you already mentioned the trade and the records of the participants etc, i'm sure they're not going to need a map to figure it out. I'm just curious if the trade is as bad as you think it is.

Good point. OK, sure. 9-3 team gave WR Gordon CLE, 2.06 to 4-8 team for RB Martin TB, 2.04, 4.03. Martin is a consensus top 5 dynasty RB, Gordon is likely gone for the year, and the team with the better record somehow even negotiated slightly better picks on top of that. And it's not just this suspension, it's future suspension risk as well. Plus if the Browns have any sense they will be scaling back their reliance on Gordon in their offense going forward. His career year in 2013 won't ever be repeated.

I'd take Gordon side without thinking twice. Even with the suspension risk. Not only is this not lopsided, but there are plenty of people that would prefer the Gordon side. I'm not saying I don't understand the Martin side as I certainly do, but this is actually a pretty reasonable trade with pros and cons on both sides.

 

[identikit]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

Nah, guys read this board. I don't want to expose guys here.

Since you already mentioned the trade and the records of the participants etc, i'm sure they're not going to need a map to figure it out. I'm just curious if the trade is as bad as you think it is.

Good point. OK, sure. 9-3 team gave WR Gordon CLE, 2.06 to 4-8 team for RB Martin TB, 2.04, 4.03. Martin is a consensus top 5 dynasty RB, Gordon is likely gone for the year, and the team with the better record somehow even negotiated slightly better picks on top of that. And it's not just this suspension, it's future suspension risk as well. Plus if the Browns have any sense they will be scaling back their reliance on Gordon in their offense going forward. His career year in 2013 won't ever be repeated.

I'd take Gordon side without thinking twice. Even with the suspension risk. Not only is this not lopsided, but there are plenty of people of people that would prefer the Gordon side. I'm not saying I don't understand the Martin side as I certainly do, but this is actually a pretty reasonable trade with pros and cons on both sides.

Yep.

Not lopsided at all.

 

[maf005]

Related observation:

A good commish is one who can find owners for orphan teams. The vast majority of orphans have little to no chance of contending in the next 2-3 years yet their owners are expected to pay full dues until then.

This needs to change. Incentives like extra draft picks or reduced dues should be more common considering how terrible these orphans are that people are taking over. I think leveling the playing field a bit for new owners would increase retention rates as well.

My

 

[JohnnyU]

Trade just went down in one of my dynasty leagues where last year's 9-3 record, 130 PPG team did a deal with the 4-8, 100 PPG team. And of course the deal was a disaster for the poorer team.

I'm in three leagues with the good owner, and he's a very good fantasy player. He spends a huge amount of time trading, marketing his players on league message boards, etc. He really earns his good records in all his leagues because he puts in the effort. I don't resent him for winning so many deals, but it sure hurts to see every time one of these clear win-lose deals happens. It just makes it that much harder for the rest of us to compete who don't have the time, interest, or inclination to expend that much effort making deals. Survival of the fittest I guess. I do wonder though why the bottom dwellers continually make trades with the sharks and don't learn.

what was the trade?

Nah, guys read this board. I don't want to expose guys here.

Since you already mentioned the trade and the records of the participants etc, i'm sure they're not going to need a map to figure it out. I'm just curious if the trade is as bad as you think it is.

Good point. OK, sure. 9-3 team gave WR Gordon CLE, 2.06 to 4-8 team for RB Martin TB, 2.04, 4.03. Martin is a consensus top 5 dynasty RB, Gordon is likely gone for the year, and the team with the better record somehow even negotiated slightly better picks on top of that. And it's not just this suspension, it's future suspension risk as well. Plus if the Browns have any sense they will be scaling back their reliance on Gordon in their offense going forward. His career year in 2013 won't ever be repeated.

I'd take Gordon side without thinking twice. Even with the suspension risk. Not only is this not lopsided, but there are plenty of people that would prefer the Gordon side. I'm not saying I don't understand the Martin side as I certainly do, but this is actually a pretty reasonable trade with pros and cons on both sides.

I'm not sure you will be saying this after he's kicked out of the league and I see that he's walked right up the ledge and there is a strong wind swirling his body.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

9-3 team gave WR Gordon CLE, 2.06 to 4-8 team for RB Martin TB, 2.04, 4.03.

So basically Martin and the 4.03 for free. Even now, in the worst case scenario for the Gordon side, it's not like this trade is a league-killer.

 

[Steed]

9-3 team gave WR Gordon CLE, 2.06 to 4-8 team for RB Martin TB, 2.04, 4.03.

So basically Martin and the 4.03 for free. Even now, in the worst case scenario for the Gordon side, it's not like this trade is a league-killer.

Which is basically the 4.3 for free. One of those rare trades where both sides come out a loser

 

[ghostguy123]

9-3 team gave WR Gordon CLE, 2.06 to 4-8 team for RB Martin TB, 2.04, 4.03.

So basically Martin and the 4.03 for free. Even now, in the worst case scenario for the Gordon side, it's not like this trade is a league-killer.

Which is basically the 4.3 for free. One of those rare trades where both sides come out a loser

depends who he drafted at 4.03 :X :X :X :X :X

And back to the talk of when "super teams" are created and people leave the league.......well, obviously the purpose of a dynasty league is to find committed owners and run the league for a long time. Raise the deposit AT LEAST to the point where a new owner could take over and get one full year free. Some teams are so bad that is the only way you will ever fill the team, and in some cases teams are so bad that might not even be enough. At least one full year's deposit is a must IMO.

 

[ghostguy123]

By the way, I will still take Gordon over Martin