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The Russia Ukraine Conflict Thread (2 Viewers)

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Gabbard’s video is from several days ago. She’s softened her stance and saying Russia should leave but Ukraine should stay independent of NATO or Russia.

 
That was not a Left Bashing, that's a simple truth about most of the time he speaks. If that's a problem then aim at the guy speaking. I made a statement that Macron is a better voice right now and everyone should and seems to be rallying around and lining up behind him, I think that's not a bad thing, do you?

I'm not ripping on Biden, i'm simply stating the obvious, it doesn't appear there is much respect from Putin towards him and that's really on Putin but applauding Macron's efforts shouldn't be a partisan comment IMO. 

You're really wanting to dig and we know why but OK, get offended by my posts. 

Cheers!

 
That was not a Left Bashing, that's a simple truth about most of the time he speaks. If that's a problem then aim at the guy speaking. I made a statement that Macron is a better voice right now and everyone should and seems to be rallying around and lining up behind him, I think that's not a bad thing, do you?

I'm not ripping on Biden, i'm simply stating the obvious, it doesn't appear there is much respect from Putin towards him and that's really on Putin but applauding Macron's efforts shouldn't be a partisan comment IMO. 

You're really wanting to dig and we know why but OK, get offended by my posts. 

Cheers!
You know how your posts came off? Like this:

"Hey, fellas, allow Ol' MOP to be the voice of reason here, let's stop with the political stuff, right after I get out a few more political thoughts of my own"

 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/28/i-havent-told-my-granny-ukraines-student-molotov-cocktail-makers

Great piece on Ukrainian students in a makeshift Moltov cocktail factory. Money quote:

“We call them Bandera smoothies,” Lily Eleanor, a 25-year-old PR for fashion brands said, referring to the Ukrainian wartime nationalist leader Stepan Bandera. How did she cope with the pungent working conditions? “I love the smell. It’s the smell of freedom. The Russians don’t know what they are doing here,” she said.
Go, girl

 
I've seen a few tweets stating that the mayor of Kupyansk, Hennadiy Mazehora, handed his city over to the Russians.

Word is he was a supporter of Russia and that the Ukrainian Prosecutor General is charging him with treason.

ETA: Kupyansk is a small-ish town 30 miles outside of Kharkiv.

 
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That was not a Left Bashing, that's a simple truth about most of the time he speaks. If that's a problem then aim at the guy speaking. I made a statement that Macron is a better voice right now and everyone should and seems to be rallying around and lining up behind him, I think that's not a bad thing, do you?

I'm not ripping on Biden, i'm simply stating the obvious, it doesn't appear there is much respect from Putin towards him and that's really on Putin but applauding Macron's efforts shouldn't be a partisan comment IMO. 

You're really wanting to dig and we know why but OK, get offended by my posts. 

Cheers!
So I guess if Biden threatened to bomb Putin off the planet like nothing ever seen before you'd think he was portraying strength?

Me, I'll take the guy who measures his words and takes responsibility over the bombastic blowhard who needs to push people out of the way in photo shoots, shakes hands like a WWE wrestler, never ever ever accepts negative responsibility, and sells out his own intelligence agencies every trip of the train. 

 
You know how your posts came off? Like this:

"Hey, fellas, allow Ol' MOP to be the voice of reason here, let's stop with the political stuff, right after I get out a few more political thoughts of my own"
Fair enough

-I applaud Macron and his efforts and it's inspiring to see. I'd like to see him continue to take a leadership position and look forward to hearing more from him. 

Nobody raised an eyebrow when i bashed politicians, one specifically for calling Putin a "genius" but I say i like the way Macron speaks vs our leader and I get pushback.

I got it, we're good

 
The TV channels all belong to Medvedchuk.  Who has been a Russian appologist, Putin’s possible appointee should Russia win out.

Not sure what Gabbard is doing here.
It appears as if a transition is underway for her professionally.  This "all opinions are equal" stuff has got to stop.  Not all opinions ARE equal in merit.  All opinions have the right to be presented to society, sure.  When they are and then rejected that doesn't mean they weren't heard and it doesn't mean that people were censored.

 
So I guess if Biden threatened to bomb Putin off the planet like nothing ever seen before you'd think he was portraying strength?

Me, I'll take the guy who measures his words and takes responsibility over the bombastic blowhard who needs to push people out of the way in photo shoots, shakes hands like a WWE wrestler, never ever ever accepts negative responsibility, and sells out his own intelligence agencies every trip of the train. 
Just writing your own script now, let me know when you send out the dailies.

That's complete make believe, get out of your head Buddy

 
So I guess if Biden threatened to bomb Putin off the planet like nothing ever seen before you'd think he was portraying strength?

Me, I'll take the guy who measures his words and takes responsibility over the bombastic blowhard who needs to push people out of the way in photo shoots, shakes hands like a WWE wrestler, never ever ever accepts negative responsibility, and sells out his own intelligence agencies every trip of the train. 
I’ll also take the guy who filled critical foreign policy-related positions with career professionals instead of his son-in-law or the pillow guy.

I think people forget that putting adults in important roles instead of moronic sycophants who talk nice about him on Hannity was as much a reason to vote for Biden than anything else. Yeah, he’s old and doesn’t give great speeches, but I’m also pretty happy Ivanka isn’t running point on this. 

 
Fair enough

-I applaud Macron and his efforts and it's inspiring to see. I'd like to see him continue to take a leadership position and look forward to hearing more from him. 

Nobody raised an eyebrow when i bashed politicians, one specifically for calling Putin a "genius" but I say i like the way Macron speaks vs our leader and I get pushback.

I got it, we're good
I think most of us think all the NATO leaders are doing excellent work.  Including Biden and Macron. 

 
That was not a Left Bashing, that's a simple truth about most of the time he speaks. If that's a problem then aim at the guy speaking. I made a statement that Macron is a better voice right now and everyone should and seems to be rallying around and lining up behind him, I think that's not a bad thing, do you?

I'm not ripping on Biden, i'm simply stating the obvious, it doesn't appear there is much respect from Putin towards him and that's really on Putin but applauding Macron's efforts shouldn't be a partisan comment IMO. 

You're really wanting to dig and we know why but OK, get offended by my posts. 

Cheers!
He was right. Wrong time for you to be dismissive and critical of our Commander in Chief. 

Biden coalesced NATO and made them stronger and more united than any time since ww2 (see Condeleeza Rice interview on FOX yesterday), he managed to get everyone to get on board with sanctions, and he has thus far prevented drastic nuclear actions by either side.

He's not perfect, but in times like these, uniformed catcalling from the sideline at the Commander in Chief is poor behavior.

I know a lot of people think its okay because a former President is doing it. That is unprecedented. Remember that he is not only the first President ever to be non-supportive of the current administration during a crisis, but actually speak out against them. That is unpatriotic and bad for the country whether its you or him.

 
https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/1498304495025065988

More protests from Berdyansk. 

@ukraine_world

Russia kept shelling Ukraine with immense intensity notwithstanding negotiations taking place at the Ukraine-Belarus border. The footage clearly shows that Russia is targeting residential areas
Even if they can initially capture cities there is no way Russia can maintain occupancy without insurgencies everywhere and body bags with their young men being sent home. 5,300 troops dead as declared by Ukraine former President, Petro Poroshenko who appeared on CNN this morning and gave quite a passionate interview and update from Kyiv. 

I don't think I would want to be a Russian soldier trying to hold down the fort in the middle of these cities, they're sitting ducks up there even if they have control of government buildings at the moment. 

 
I wonder when the last time the Swiss did something like this was?
this was posted last night, then there was a backtrack and the Swiss said they supported the sanctions, but would not actually enforce them against Russian bank accounts. Did they backtrack on that backtrack? 

 
I think most of us think all the NATO leaders are doing excellent work.  Including Biden and Macron. 
I totally agree with what you are saying, but the average American is not going to be happy with increase in gas and food prices that this war brings.  I ok paying more for these items if helps control Putin.

 
this was posted last night, then there was a backtrack and the Swiss said they supported the sanctions, but would not actually enforce them against Russian bank accounts. Did they backtrack on that backtrack? 


https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/very-probable-that-swiss-will-freeze-russian-assets-president-2022-02-27/

GENEVA, Feb 27 (Reuters) - Swiss President Ignazio Cassis said on Sunday that it was "very probable" that neutral Switzerland would follow the European Union (EU) on Monday in sanctioning Russia and freezing Russian assets in the Alpine country.

Cassis, interviewed on French-language Swiss public television RTS, said that the seven-member Federal Council would meet on Monday and review recommendations by the departments of finance and economy.

Asked whether Switzerland -- a major financial centre and commodities trading hub -- would follow the EU in freezing Russian assets, he said: "It is very probable that the government will decide to do so tomorrow, but I cannot anticipate decisions not yet taken."

 
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I totally agree with what you are saying, but the average American is not going to be happy with increase in gas and food prices that this war brings.  I ok paying more for these items if helps control Putin.
True.  But hopefully this gets resolved somewhat quickly and with covid becoming just a flu, gas and food will normalize.

 
They didn’t get caught by surprise, they were openly releasing information on what Russia was doing in the weeks leading up to the invasion to prepare the world.  It’s a small reasons for why there has been such a good world coordinated response.
This is my take, too.  It seems to me that the Biden administration has handled the Ukraine situation very well so far.  I can't think of much that I would ask them to do differently if we had it to do over again.  For example, it's not Biden's fault that China and most of Europe had their collective heads in the sand, but it does seem to be at least partly to Biden's credit that everyone is more or less on the same page now.

This time last week, we were talking about Taiwan is next.  Does anybody think that's so obviously true now?  If China had questions, they got their answer from all the European countries who are suddenly taking their defense responsibilities seriously.

This is very, very early, but there are parallels here to the Kennedy administration, that had the Bay of Pigs (Afghanistan) rapidly followed by the Cuban missile crisis (Ukraine).
These are the takes of the news organizations around the world.  I was puzzled enough when hearing the alternatives that I decided to take a brief spin through our national "news' media and am pretty confident a majority of the takes I heard stateside are ONLY popular state side.  Very few outside our borders are debating who to assign "blame" or "credit" to.  Our media sucks.

Someone in this thread (I think) asked if Putin wouldn't just start going the social media route and/or cyber attacks etc.  The answer is yes, he will be back to business as usual ASAP.  That route's been significantly more successful so far than this invasion fiasco.  There isn't clearer evidence of that being true than this particular narrative which seems to only fester in any meaningful way in THIS country.  We need to be better than that.

 
catcalling from the sideline at the Commander in Chief is poor behavior.

I know a lot of people think its okay because a former President is doing it. That is unprecedented. Remember that he is not only the first President ever to be non-supportive of the current administration during a crisis, but actually speak out against them. That is unpatriotic and bad for the country whether its you or him.
definition: make a whistle, shout, or comment of a sexual nature to a woman passing by.

😂

After I just said "Nobody raised an eyebrow when i bashed politicians, one specifically for calling Putin a "genius" but I say i like the way Macron speaks vs our leader and I get pushback."

😂

You can't not pick a fight, pick apart posts, folks on a mission to get offended even when posters say the exact opposite of what they're claiming they are posting.  :confused:

Some of you all need some fresh air and walk outside. Take a chill pill and relax gentlemen, we're on the same side here. 

 
If there is a positive that has come out of this crisis, beyond the magnificent performance of the Ukrainian people, it’s that almost all Americans at this point are unified on the side of Ukraine. It’s pretty rare these days that we agree on anything. We agree on this. I’m pretty proud of how conservatives and liberals and everyone in between are reacting to what Russia has done. 
 

So let’s not screw that up in this thread by arguing Trump vs Biden. It’s an important argument to have but not in this thread. I made that mistake previously and I regret it now; no need for others to repeat my error. 

 
I was surprised that there hasn't been more in the way of cyber attacks against Ukraine. I had expected them to pretty much go dark from an internet standpoint, and likely with things like their power grid affected.

I am wondering how much of the reason that hasn't happened is Russia not being willing to risk it impacting NATO countries that would have invoked their mutual defense.  While hacking into a given specific system and taking it down can probably be done without a huge risk of unintended consequences, releasing viruses into the wild isn't something you can control.

So I can get why they didn't do the latter. But I'd still have expected a bit more than we've seen in the way of targeted attacks to try to shut down internet in Ukraine. Or maybe they tried and Ukraine was able to harden in time and fend them off.  It does feel like social media is providing a dramatic advantage to Ukraine though when it comes to garnering world opinion in their favor. Not that they wouldn't have had people backing them, but I think it's played a role in really galvanizing some strong reactions, like corporations pulling out of Russia, etc.  Choosing to take, say, a $25 billion loss for principles isn't the kind of thing large corporations regularly do. I have to think the overwhelming response in the West, being partly fueled by what Ukrainians are doing on social media, is playing a big role in their support.

 
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definition: make a whistle, shout, or comment of a sexual nature to a woman passing by.

😂

After I just said "Nobody raised an eyebrow when i bashed politicians, one specifically for calling Putin a "genius" but I say i like the way Macron speaks vs our leader and I get pushback."

😂

You can't not pick a fight, pick apart posts, folks on a mission to get offended even when posters say the exact opposite of what they're claiming they are posting.  :confused:

Some of you all need some fresh air and walk outside. Take a chill pill and relax gentlemen, we're on the same side here. 
Follow your own advice and maybe I will respond to your nonsense again when you get back.

 
These are the takes of the news organizations around the world.  I was puzzled enough when hearing the alternatives that I decided to take a brief spin through our national "news' media and am pretty confident a majority of the takes I heard stateside are ONLY popular state side.  Very few outside our borders are debating who to assign "blame" or "credit" to.  Our media sucks.
:hifive:

This is not the US vs. Putin. For any of these sanctions and so forth to have teeth, the EU and others needed to get on board. They have, because politicians around the globe have all figured out that 'Putin bad' is a winning message. At it's core this is a regional conflict. It just is. And it is not our region.I get it, there's nukes, and we are a superpower and all that, but this is closer to Europe, and let's be honest, people over there have  much clearer picture of what was happening there for the last decade than we do. Americans: Not really known for their interest in geopolitics.

These partisan domestic stuff, it seems a little silly when compared to the global stage, especially when 95% of the globe is pretty much in lockstep.

 
Ukrainian Amb. to UN spoke to special General Assembly live on BBC World News just now. He read a screenshot of an alleged text from a Russian soldier to his (the soldier’s) mother. Basically, the soldier informed his mother that they invaded Ukraine, were told they would be welcomed, and is horrified at what they have had to do. He described how the Ukrainian populace throws themselves in front of their armored vehicles, get run over, and this isn’t what he thought or anyone wanted. Allegedly, that soldier died shortly after.

 
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This is from an on-the-record transcript of a Q&A with a U.S. "Senior Defense Official" yesterday...

...kind of how I want to start, which is to remind that he still has, he Mr. Putin, still has one-third of his combat power not committed to the fight. That's a lot of combat power. And the combat power that he has committed to the fight is a lot of combat power. And the Ukrainians are putting up a stiff resistance. It's heroic, it's inspiring, and it's very clear for the world to see. 

But the Russians have still have a lot of operational advantages, despite the shortcomings they've had with logistics and sustainment. And in some of their maneuver, they still have an awful lot of combat power, that is viable and arrayed in and outside Ukraine. I can't speak for Russian planning, Barbara; I couldn't begin to speculate how they factored in how they were going to flow fuel and sustainment. I would tell you that our best estimate is that they did not anticipate the level of resistance that they were going to encounter. And I would also, I think, you know, it bears considering that this is a major, major, conventional operation. That is rare in recent Russian history; they simply don't have a lot of experience moving on another nation-state at this level of complexity and size. I mean, they have three lines of access, all of which has to be supported. And they're, and the north and the northeastern are geographically close. But then you have a southern line of advance that is not at all geographically close to the main bulk of his forces. 

So, this is a fairly complex operation that they're attempting. We don't know whether it's a failure in planning. We don't know whether it's a failure in execution. But I think we can assume that they will learn from this and that they will adapt, and that they will overcome these challenges. And we have to keep that in mind, they have a very significant amount of combat power still available for them in and out of the country. 

 
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Ukrainian Amb. to UN spoke to special General Assembly live on BBC World News just now. He read a screenshot of an alleged text from a Russian soldier to his (the soldier’s) mother. Basically, the soldier informed his mother that they invaded Ukraine, were told they would be welcomed, and is horrified at what they move had to do. He described how the Ukrainian populace throws themselves in front of their armored vehicles, get run over, and this isn’t what he thought or anyone wanted. Allegedly, that soldier died shortly after.
Geez

 
It appears as if a transition is underway for her professionally.  This "all opinions are equal" stuff has got to stop.  Not all opinions ARE equal in merit.  All opinions have the right to be presented to society, sure.  When they are and then rejected that doesn't mean they weren't heard and it doesn't mean that people were censored.


I agree with your statement that considering and rejecting an opinion is not censorship or wrong - there will be a lot of people with dumb opinions around this conflict, and it's fine to state that you think those opinions are dumb and reject them. That's a reasonable take, no doubt.

I do think it crosses a line into wrongness if we start imposing penalties on a person's ability to speak or earn a living based on nothing more than holding or stating an opinion, though, and that's where I don't really trust either side of our current political sphere to avoid doing that (not just with Ukraine but with a lot of things). 

hopefully we can come together on this stuff a little better down the road. I think the Biden administration has done a good job responding to this crisis so far, and I obviously disagree with any Americans supporting Putin's actions with Ukraine due to how they feel about our president. But the thing that differentiates us from Russia and Putin's authoritarianism is that we have the freedom and right to hold and state our opinions on this stuff, and people shouldn't be viewed as evil or punished for what we perceive as them having a dumb or bad opinion here. 

and I know you're a level-headed dude and probably aren't disagreeing with any of this, I'm just throwing out some thoughts.

 
I think the US did a great job of setting the board up for widespread support of Ukraine, resulting in sanctions that will have real teeth.  In particular the sharing of intel on what was reported to be unprecedent levels shined a spotlight on what Putin was doing.  It painted a very clear path his actions were those of an aggressor.  So when it went exactly how the US had said, people were ready to be up in arms about it. 

I don't have much to say on what I think they could have done better in the recent timeframe. Trying tougher sanctions before the attack very likely wouldn't have gotten enough support, surely nothing compared to what nations were willing to employ after the invasion. And Russia would have used too much of them as provocation.  They had to have a measured escalation in them, I think.

That pretty much leaves additional arms for Ukraine in advance. I'm not well enough versed on what actually was done there to be making judgments, personally.  I also think whether it would have provoked Russia worse is also a consideration there. But that's about the only thing if you sent me back in time to advise, that I might have counseled on.

 
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If there is a positive that has come out of this crisis, beyond the magnificent performance of the Ukrainian people, it’s that almost all Americans at this point are unified on the side of Ukraine. It’s pretty rare these days that we agree on anything. We agree on this. I’m pretty proud of how conservatives and liberals and everyone in between are reacting to what Russia has done. 
 

So let’s not screw that up in this thread by arguing Trump vs Biden. It’s an important argument to have but not in this thread. I made that mistake previously and I regret it now; no need for others to repeat my error. 
My two big takeaways so far from what has transpired:

- How easy it is for one evil person to inflict so much damage.  The sooner someone takes Putin out the better

- How unified virtually everyone else is against Russia.  From small things to large it has been quite amazing.  I went to pick up my wife at the Atlanta airport last night and they had the airport lit up in Ukrainian colors.  
 

 
I was surprised that there hasn't been more in the way of cyber attacks against Ukraine. I had expected them to pretty much go dark from an internet standpoint, and likely with things like their power grid affected.

I am wondering how much of the reason that hasn't happened is Russia not being willing to risk it impacting NATO countries that would have invoked their mutual defense.  While hacking into a given specific system and taking it down can probably be done without a huge risk of unintended consequences, releasing viruses into the wild isn't something you can control.

So I can get why they didn't do the latter. But I'd still have expected a bit more than we've seen in the way of targeted attacks to try to shut down internet in Ukraine. Or maybe they tried and Ukraine was able to harden in time and fend them off.  It does feel like social media is providing a dramatic advantage to Ukraine though when it comes to garnering world opinion in their favor. Not that they wouldn't have had people backing them, but I think it's played a role in really galvanizing some strong reactions, like corporations pulling out of Russia, etc.  Choosing to take, say, a $25 billion loss for principles isn't the kind of thing large corporations regularly do. I have to think the overwhelming response in the West, being partly fueled by what Ukrainians are doing on social media, is playing a big role in their support.
I think part of the reason is groups like anonymous who are hacking and cyber attacking Russia on multiple fronts, which I imagine is tying up a lot of their cyber attackers.  The best defense might be some offense here.

 
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Ukrainian Amb. to UN spoke to special General Assembly live on BBC World News just now. He read a screenshot of an alleged text from a Russian soldier to his (the soldier’s) mother. Basically, the soldier informed his mother that they invaded Ukraine, were told they would be welcomed, and is horrified at what they have had to do. He described how the Ukrainian populace throws themselves in front of their armored vehicles, get run over, and this isn’t what he thought or anyone wanted. Allegedly, that soldier died shortly after.
This is one of those stories that sounds like propaganda.  Not saying it couldn't be true, of course, just that there is going to be a lot of flatly-untrue or not-entirely-true stuff floating around out there for a little while.  It's probably good to take certain stories with a hefty grain of salt if they sound like something designed to affect morale of one side or another.

 
"Pivdennyi mayor in Kharkiv Oblast detained on suspicion of high treason.

Oleksandr Briukhanov, along with a few local officials, have been captured on suspicion of high treason for allegedly negotiating with Russian forces, according to Kharkiv Oblast governor Oleh Synehubov."

https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1498321859187978240?s=21
 

I guess we should expect some of this as the Eastern region of Ukraine is generally supportive of Russia and for the most part Russian is still their language.

 
Hopefully we get a full cease fire today. What would Russia want as part of their agreement to end hostilities?
See my post above:

Those interests include:

– recognition of Russian sovereignty over Crimea

– demilitarization and denazification of the Ukrainian state 

– ensuring its neutral status

Ukraine said it was open to neutrality, but hard to see how they agree to the rest after all that's happened.

He is not negotiating in good faith. 

 
I've seen a few tweets stating that the mayor of Kupyansk, Hennadiy Mazehora, handed his city over to the Russians.

Word is he was a supporter of Russia and that the Ukrainian Prosecutor General is charging him with treason.

ETA: Kupyansk is a small-ish town 30 miles outside of Kharkiv.


"Pivdennyi mayor in Kharkiv Oblast detained on suspicion of high treason.

Oleksandr Briukhanov, along with a few local officials, have been captured on suspicion of high treason for allegedly negotiating with Russian forces, according to Kharkiv Oblast governor Oleh Synehubov."

https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1498321859187978240?s=21
 

I guess we should expect some of this as the Eastern region of Ukraine is generally supportive of Russia and for the most part Russian is still their language.
Looks like that's 2 of them now.

 
I think part of the reason is groups like anonymous who are hacking and cyber attacking Russia on multiple fronts, which I imagine is tying up a lot of their cyber attackers.  The best defense might be some offense here.
But this stuff should have been done from the getgo on the opening moments of the invasion, before anything like that happened.

The more I was thinking about it just now, the more I suspect that in addition to wanting to avoid it spilling over into a NATO member... that maybe it was just plain over-confidence that Russia's mighty army was going to blitzkrieg through overtop of the Ukrainian defenses and so it wasn't needed.

Now that they know that's not the case, I wonder if we're going to see them deploy their cyber attacks when they renew the military push.  I do worry that Russia is leaning from what went wrong and is going to make corrections on the military front.

 

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