This Dad Needs Some Help (1 Viewer)

[ChiefD]

So, I have a 16 year old teenager who is a really good kid. Respectful, plays on the high school soccer team - just a good kid overall. Has made good grades all the way through his freshman year. He is now a sophomore. If you look at his report card he's making two A's, three B's, and a C. 

He just finished up his first semester finals. From all accounts he studied for his finals. Told us he was studying. Was bunkered in his room studying. 

Got an F on his math final, a C on a history final, and a B on his gym final. B in Gym? What the hell.  Other finals were fine. 

So in our house, an F at any time is unacceptable. Math is certainly not his best subject, and he is making a C in that class.  I'm ok with the C in the class so I would expect his final to be in the C range if he's trying his best.

For the history class, it's an AP class and he is making a B in that class, so I would expect his final to be in the B range. Getting a C is certainly not terrible, but to me still not acceptable.

For the gym class, a B on a final is unacceptable. He has an easy A in this class and clearly blew off the final.

So yesterday we have this discussion. My wife is more of a gentle type and my style is more direct. Not dickish, but more of a "let's figure out what's going on so it doesn't repeat itself because classes are going to get harder as you move forward and into college."

But his response is basically: "well, I'm still getting a good overall grade in the class. what's the big deal?"

And this is when I start to get pissed. I explain that NO FINAL should be getting blown off and the final is where you have to shine because when you get into college your final could end up being a huge portion of your grade.  

And this is where we clash. And where I need your help. I don't know how to get him to understand the importance of tests. And finals. 

He's a pretty laid back kid in general, and this is what worries me. He's the type of kid that will do the bare minimum of what's asked of him. And he thinks he's cool because his overall grade card looks fine. But bubbling under the surface is this character trait that I can see could be a problem down the road.

We've already told him he's getting a math tutor for the second semester, which he as agreed to. We've explained that math is one of those subjects that builds upon itself, so we need to nip this in the bud right now.

But how do I communicate the importance of all of this to him? Leave it to my wife, who is more gentle about it? Have someone else do it? At no time am I degrading or disrepectful to him during any of our communications.

I also know he's a teenager, so there is going to be that natural butting of heads. But I'm at a loss of what to do. 

Thanks for any help. 

 

[jobarules]

Sounds like my son. 

Anyway, I think the tutor for math and the conversation you had about finals being important is all you can do. You cant exactly punish the kid for not trying hard and still getting a B & C. That seems a bit harsh and would cause more harm than good. Basically, when he matures, it'll click for him. I honestly wouldn't worry too much about it. He sounds like a typical kid that has some growing up to do. It takes some kids longer than others.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

He's a pretty laid back kid in general, and this is what worries me. He's the type of kid that will do the bare minimum of what's asked of him. And he thinks he's cool because his overall grade card looks fine. But bubbling under the surface is this character trait that I can see could be a problem down the road.

Honestly, it sounds like you're worried that your Type B kid isn't a Type A...like you are. I think, ultimately, you're going to have to accept that he's not going to be.

My son is also one that will do anything you ask of him...but only what you ask of him.

He too, could have done better in school...but didn't. Particularly in math. He went to a community college and got a 2 year degree and won't be going back to school probably ever. He couldn't pass the math classes. 

I worked my butt off to get good grades and did. But I also realized in hindsight that it really didn't matter as much as I thought they did. 

I think that as long as you both are clear on the idea that he's going to have to live with the results of his efforts then it's probably best to just let it go.  

ETA: My son is exceptionally frugal with his money. He saves just about everything he ever gets. He currently has WAY more money in the bank and investments at 22 than almost every adult you know at 52. So..

 

[beer 30]

Sounds very similar to my youngest daughter. She did well in HS but didn't have to put forth much effort to make grades. Always kinda took a lazy approach to studying, didn't fail anything but nothing really motivated her. Her fallback was always "well I'm still getting a good grade" or "everyone else did worse than me on the test". That never sat well with me.

Her older sister (5 years different) worked her ### off for every grade she got and was pretty much straight A's in HS and college. I told D2 that D1's study habits in HS was the base for her success in college. I also told her (D2) didn't have that base and no one, not a roommate or a friend or a teacher will give a #### about her in college. I harped pretty hard on it and while I don't think it had the impact I take credit for, she has been the best college student I could have hoped for. Straight A's, Presidents list every semester, graduating early. I think girls mature quicker than guys so that played a part but she also understood the seriousness of college. I was a straight C student in college and told both my kids, you have to start out strong. If you get good grades early, it sets a great base for your GPA down the rode, especially with typically "entry level" classes.

That's where a lot of kids jack themselves up. Easy courses, first time away from mom & dad, access to fun stuff they probably didn't have at home. It's easy for first years to drop the ball. You're starting uphill when you approach like that.

 

[Dr_Zaius]

I have a similar issue with my youngest - great kid, but very much a do as little as possible mindset.  She's a junior in HS.  It probably doesn't help the situation that her older two siblings are nose-to-the-grindstone types that she probably feels she can't live up to.  The Type B vs. Type A is a good point, but there is definitely a line where it becomes less Type B and more shear laziness, and I think it behooves a parent to at least try to nudge them over that line.  My wife and I have tried to gently remind her that she could be locking future paths out by not putting the effort in now.  Hopefully it's slowly sinking in, but it's tough as she is a very private person whose thoughts are pretty locked up, so it's really hard to figure out her thought process.  If there's an easy answer, I certainly don't have it - hoping patience and caring breaks through over time.

 

[ChiefD]

Honestly, it sounds like you're worried that your Type B kid isn't a Type A...like you are. I think, ultimately, you're going to have to accept that he's not going to be.

My son is also one that will do anything you ask of him...but only what you ask of him.

He too, could have done better in school...but didn't. Particularly in math. He went to a community college and got a 2 year degree and won't be going back to school probably ever. He couldn't pass the math classes. 

I worked my butt off to get good grades and did. But I also realized in hindsight that it really didn't matter as much as I thought they did. 

I think that as long as you both are clear on the idea that he's going to have to live with the results of his efforts then it's probably best to just let it go.  

ETA: My son is exceptionally frugal with his money. He saves just about everything he ever gets. He currently has WAY more money in the bank and investments at 22 than almost every adult you know at 52. So..

Yeah, this could certainly be true. 

But I would also truthfully say that I'm not at 52 years old what I could have been. My parents were not really hands on at all. They divorced when I was 9, so from that point forward I had no direction at all in terms of school, my future, financial stuff - none of it. 

What I'm trying to avoid is him turning into ME. 

 

[jobarules]

Not only is my son like this in school but he's also like this in baseball. The kid is a 5 tool player that half asses everything. Drives me nuts that he could be ruining any potential he has. But there's only so much I can do. At some point THEY need to want it. My son is 12 btw.

 

[MAC_32]

And this is where we clash. And where I need your help. I don't know how to get him to understand the importance of tests. And finals. 

He's a pretty laid back kid in general, and this is what worries me. He's the type of kid that will do the bare minimum of what's asked of him. And he thinks he's cool because his overall grade card looks fine. But bubbling under the surface is this character trait that I can see could be a problem down the road.

2 things:

#1 - tests aren't the priority, learning is and an environment in which learning is sought out rather than forced is one in which he's more likely to be successful. With this approach test performance is more likely to be enhanced - without it actually being the focus.

#2 - what engages him? and where does extra effort need to be forced because it isn't a subject he's interested in? Finding the balance between the 2 is an inexact science, but that's where I'd focus my energy. Successfully thread that needle and he'll thrive in the former and perform well enough on the latter.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Not only is my son like this in school but he's also like this in baseball. The kid is a 5 tool player that half asses everything. Drives me nuts that he could be ruining any potential he has. But there's only so much I can do. At some point THEY need to want it. My son is 12 btw.

Its so frustrating. Both of my daughters have all the tools your cant teach but aren't willing to work on the stuff that just takes practice. 

Ultimately they have to want it bad enough to put in the work. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Yeah, this could certainly be true. 

But I would also truthfully say that I'm not at 52 years old what I could have been. My parents were not really hands on at all. They divorced when I was 9, so from that point forward I had no direction at all in terms of school, my future, financial stuff - none of it. 

What I'm trying to avoid is him turning into ME. 

Might not hurt to tell your kid that very story, if you haven't. At least then he'd understand the perspective that you're coming from - that you want the very best for him and are doing what you can to help him get there. Which is what you wish you'd have had from your parents.

Ask him to meet at least part way. If he doesn't want to work hard enough for the straight A's (or whatever) that you think he's capable of, at least he can work hard enough to not get the F's that you know are beneath him. 

I like what @beer 30 said though. He needs to understand that that half hearted effort in college likely will set him back pretty much immediately. It really is true that a gigantic portion of success is simply showing up consistently. 

 

[matuski]

Sounds like me in a way (not the grades but the point of view regarding school and grades).  I got through highschool and college by figuring out day 1 what I could get away with not doing.  Made good grades that would have been great had I done them.

You really could not have told me anything.  Both because I was terribly immature even through college and you simply could not force me to gain perspective, but also I wasn't being lazy - it was thought through and calculated.  Worked hard on the things that needed to be done, and not doing what didn't need to be done was part of the plan.

Homework is 5% of my grade?  Thanks won't bother with that.  Attendance doesn't matter?  Cool see you for the quizzes and tests.  I can drop a test grade?  Sweet one less of those I'll worry about taking/attending.  Etc, etc.

 

[Van Dyman]

Sounds like my son. 

Anyway, I think the tutor for math and the conversation you had about finals being important is all you can do. You cant exactly punish the kid for not trying hard and still getting a B & C. That seems a bit harsh and would cause more harm than good. Basically, when he matures, it'll click for him. I honestly wouldn't worry too much about it. He sounds like a typical kid that has some growing up to do. It takes some kids longer than others.

Disagree. If a lack of effort resulted in a lower grade, I'd address that.

Sure, a B isn't a bad grade if that's the natural result of him doing his best. The grade letter itself isn't the issue. Sounds like he didn't really try his best. That would be a big (huge) deal in my house.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

#2 - what engages him? and where does extra effort need to be forced because it isn't a subject he's interested in? Finding the balance between the 2 is an inexact science, but that's where I'd focus my energy. Successfully thread that needle and he'll thrive in the former and perform well enough on the latter.

This. He's just not interested in math because math sucks. You have to find a way to make him want to do it. 

We have an older kid who loves money. She loves money so much that we offered to pay her for A's at $50 per A, a bonus $250 if she got all A's. 

 

[ChiefD]

Might not hurt to tell your kid that very story, if you haven't. At least then he'd understand the perspective that you're coming from - that you want the very best for him and are doing what you can to help him get there. Which is what you wish you'd have had from your parents.

Good idea. Thanks. 

 

[belljr]

Going through soemthing similar but not to that extent

 

[jobarules]

Disagree. If a lack of effort resulted in a lower grade, I'd address that.

Sure, a B isn't a bad grade if that's the natural result of him doing his best. The grade letter itself isn't the issue. Sounds like he didn't really try his best. That would be a big (huge) deal in my house.

And how does one determine a B was due to lack of effort vs a legit B?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

What does "try your best" really mean, though? That you didn't spend 4 hours in a book and only spent 2?

All of us can always "do more" in the pursuit of whatever we define as "success". 

But different people, including our children, define "success" differently. Some like the added stress that comes with striving to get the "A" or promotion that they're "capable" of getting. Others that are capable of getting that "A" or promotion don't want to because they prioritize it differently - to them the price of the added stress is not worth the prize of the result. 

I have never once been promoted in my entire career (yet I've made over a six figure salary in the IT world for about the last 15 years). I'm capable of it. I have the skills for it. But the showing up early/leaving late/playing the political corporate game was not a price I was willing to pay to gain that prize. There's more to my life than chasing that carrot. 

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

You also have to be careful about telling them how you succeeded even though you didn’t do your best. On one hand it’s inspirational and a relief that they can screw up and turn it around- on the flip side it suggests that -don’t worry, everything will be fine - but they are oblivious to all the blood sweat and tears it took you to become successful. 
 

 

[beer 30]

Disagree. If a lack of effort resulted in a lower grade, I'd address that.

Sure, a B isn't a bad grade if that's the natural result of him doing his best. The grade letter itself isn't the issue. Sounds like he didn't really try his best. That would be a big (huge) deal in my house.

Very good pint and one I talked about a lot with D2. She is a pretty smart kid, HS wasn't much of a challenge so she half assed a lot of classes. Her potential was always a high A but she did a lot of B work because it didn't take a lot of effort. That's a tough mold to break and I'm still continually amazed and how she literally flipped a switch and turned into a great student. I don't think that's typical.

This. He's just not interested in math because math sucks. You have to find a way to make him want to do it. 

We have an older kid who loves money. She loves money so much that we offered to pay her for A's at $50 per A, a bonus $250 if she got all A's. 

Another good point and an teaching opportunity. I always try to relate stuff to life in moments like these and frankly, life doesn't care about you, your feelings, your grades, your successes or failures. Life is just going to keep chugging along so if you expect something different, it's on you, not on life. There are a ton of things in life that you are going to have to do that suck. Math is one of them (no offense to you math nerds). Wasn't my thing either but you still have to get through it and an F or D is not getting through it. Sometimes the answer really is "just because".

 

[Van Dyman]

And how does one determine a B was due to lack of effort vs a legit B?

I'm saying it sounds like (from the OP) that it was due to a lack of effort. Still, I'll try to answer your question. If a kid is forgetting when assignments are due, getting bad grades in easy subjects (like gym), bombing "did you read that" quizzes, etc. that is lack of effort.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

None of what I'm saying here should infer that I think zero effort is acceptable. Again, like @beer 30 said, sometimes you just do it because you're supposed to. There's lack of effort then there's absence of it. I'm not down with the latter. 

My dad was a school teacher. One of my best friends is too. They say the same thing - something like math (or any subject, but it always seems to be math) might not be "your thing", but doing it simply teaches you to think. Which aids you in anything you're going to do.

 

[Mookie]

I'd stick to open ended questions and try not to talk in absolutes.  Give him a day or two to answer and then have a discussion.

What is important to you?

Where do want to be in 10 years?

What do you want out of life?

What would make you happiest?

What would make you satisfied?

He's too young to have definitive answers, but thinking about this stuff will help.  Then you can help him focus his priorities so that he can move towards his goals.  That makes it his plan and not yours.

 

[song]

I'd stick to open ended questions and try not to talk in absolutes.  Give him a day or two to answer and then have a discussion.

What is important to you?

Where do want to be in 10 years?

What do you want out of life?

What would make you happiest?

What would make you satisfied?

He's too young to have definitive answers, but thinking about this stuff will help.  Then you can help him focus his priorities so that he can move towards his goals.  That makes it his plan and not yours.

pretty much exactly what i was about to post.  once priorities are somewhat focused, (if you're that lucky), ask about, and help him develop an understanding of practical steps to have what HE wants.

 

[TLEF316]

Yeah, this sounds a lot like 16 year old me.  I was always a great student when I was younger (just based on natural intelligence and having parents that cared) but once it got to the point where you couldn't just cruise....I started to struggle in certain subjects (especially math, because I always blew off the homework). And as you said....it started to stack...as blowing off math as a sophomore made it that much harder as a junior and then nearly impossible as a senior (once I was taking calculus) Despite having a calculus teacher that really liked me and basically held my hand like a small child so that I could get a decent grade, I still just couldn't do it. Anything beyond SAT level math just became impossible for me because I hadn't put the time in.

Thankfully I picked a college major that didn't require any high level math and now work in an industry where we have people  (actuaries, God bless those folks) to do it for me.

Looking back, I made HS SOOOO much harder than it needed to be just based on pure laziness. With just a TINY bit more effort, I could have eliminated that occasional C (or worse in 1 or 2 semesters after I was already accepted to college....), kept my parents off my back and gone to college with a much better work ethic (which would have made things easier there too)

As you've already properly determined....for kids like this....its just about developing habits. He's obviously smart enough to do what he needs to do.   You just have to (somehow) explain to him that if he does a LITTLE bit more now, the next 5-10 years of his life (which should be the most fun) will be a lot less stressful. He'll be more prepared for college, will do better there (without having to make a huge adjustment, which will leave more time for fun stuff) and then he'll have better post-college opportunities.

Good luck. This is one of those things I wish 38 year old me could go back and tell 16 year old me.

 

[belljr]

Yeah, this sounds a lot like 16 year old me.  I was always a great student when I was younger (just based on natural intelligence and having parents that cared) but once it got to the point where you couldn't just cruise....I started to struggle in certain subjects (especially math, because I always blew off the homework). And as you said....it started to stack...as blowing off math as a sophomore made it that much harder as a junior and then nearly impossible as a senior (once I was taking calculus) Despite having a calculus teacher that really liked me and basically held my hand like a small child so that I could get a decent grade, I still just couldn't do it. Anything beyond SAT level math just became impossible for me because I hadn't put the time in.

Thankfully I picked a college major that didn't require any high level math and now work in an industry where we have people  (actuaries, God bless those folks) to do it for me.

Looking back, I made HS SOOOO much harder than it needed to be just based on pure laziness. With just a TINY bit more effort, I could have eliminated that occasional C (or worse in 1 or 2 semesters after I was already accepted to college....), kept my parents off my back and gone to college with a much better work ethic (which would have made things easier there too)

As you've already properly determined....for kids like this....its just about developing habits. He's obviously smart enough to do what he needs to do.   You just have to (somehow) explain to him that if he does a LITTLE bit more now, the next 5-10 years of his life (which should be the most fun) will be a lot less stressful. He'll be more prepared for college, will do better there (without having to make a huge adjustment, which will leave more time for fun stuff) and then he'll have better post-college opportunities.

Good luck. This is one of those things I wish 38 year old me could go back and tell 16 year old me.

To the bolded - I was this way a little also but what I see now - even people I work with - spend more time and effort trying to be lazy than actually just doing the work ....

I'm like if you put half the effort in to avoid doing the task you would already be done the task

 

[JaxBill]

I guess the question I have is if the Exam shortcomings were huge sudden departures or if they had been trending downward. 

If the former,  I'd be asking him if something is bothering him about school, i.e. bullying, arguments with teachers, etc.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I'd stick to open ended questions and try not to talk in absolutes.  Give him a day or two to answer and then have a discussion.

What is important to you?

Where do want to be in 10 years?

What do you want out of life?

What would make you happiest?

What would make you satisfied?

He's too young to have definitive answers, but thinking about this stuff will help.  Then you can help him focus his priorities so that he can move towards his goals.  That makes it his plan and not yours.

@ChiefD:  we might have the same kid (except mine is 13).  As a type A guy, it drives me absolutely nuts.  Flip side, my son is a lot more self aware at 13 than I was at 25.   Mrs APK and I have tried to use some of the questions quoted above — it’s a good way to get young APK to take ownership of his life and destiny.   It’s usually met with or , but there are rare moments where we can tell this stuff is sinking in.  But it’s still maddening to see how little internal motivation he has at times.

I’ve really had to let go of this stuff.  To face my own fears — mostly me projecting my own stuff onto him — and realize that they are predominantly fears which will never come to fruition.   Some might be real!  But…..if he followed my path would that be better??  Doubtful!!!

Anyway, thanks for starting this thread Chief.  We are facing such a similar issue……ugh.

Aside:  is this the son a few of us met at the Packers-Chiefs game?!?  Seems like a really nice kid.  You’ve done well.  Be proud!!

 

[ChiefD]

I guess the question I have is if the Exam shortcomings were huge sudden departures or if they had been trending downward. 

If the former,  I'd be asking him if something is bothering him about school, i.e. bullying, arguments with teachers, etc.

Yeah, good question. It's not always on the test scores - we keep a pretty close eye on quiz scores and test scores so we know when something isn't right on that front.  For example, he failed his first math test of the year. We figured out his math teacher was basically approving all the kids homework and giving them complete grades but never went over all the answers. So he was thinking he was getting all the answers right, and then doing the problems the exact same way on the test.

So he went to his teacher and asked to please go over the homework answers so they kids would know if they were making mistakes. Next test: he got a B. 

So he has it in him to do better -  but the regression to this final shocked me. I think he's not confirming answers with his teacher during study sessions, and just assuming he knows it all. Hence, this grade.  And a fixable issue in my opinion.

As for your second question - we talk to our kids a lot about stuff like what you mentioned. So I feel like we have a good handle on that (though I know there are things just won't tell you). My wife is good about drawing out issues and such.

 

[AAABatteries]

Two stories to share - one about each of my boys.

Oldest Son (20) - this kid is an old soul, always has been.  He was more comfortable hanging out with adults than other kids when he was a teenager.  I think he felt frustrated that his peers we too silly and he was easily bored by his HS years.  He found some areas where he fit in well - was VP of Latin Club for example.  Grades were almost dependent on how interested he was in a subject, which is exactly how I was.  Math and Science were a breeze because I had an aptitude and enjoyed them.  He was the same way but he also had something I never had - he was creative and enjoyed making things.  His Senior year of HS got completely blown up by Covid and his plans to start college last Fall fell through - he had no interest in remote learning.  During those last couple of years he really found his niche working though.  We had numerous talks and discussions and I actually convinced him not to do school right now - which is how he was leaning.  He's gotten like 3-4 promotions and is close to a big promotion.  Making really good money for his age, enjoys his work and has no student loan debt and a ton of flexibility.  More importantly, he's an awesome kid and good member of society.  My point here is, let your kid make some of his own mistakes and decisions unless you see him really veering off in the wrong direction.

Younger Son (15) - this one was all about sports growing up.  Makes good grades but his focus was on sports.  Played basketball and moved up the ranks to be the starting PG on JV as a Freshman.  He started playing with the Varsity team in the summer and was pretty much the 6th man.  But I had been telling my wife that I didn't think he had the desire to push himself.  He had played AAU for 3 years and was on a path to possibly play small time ball in college.  This Fall he quit - he made a mature decision about it, talked to his Coaches, talked to me and my Wife.  He just didn't love it any more.  He actually chose to get a job and work over continuing to play.  How could I make a decision for him to make him play when he doesn't love it?  It gutted me that he stopped playing because we love watching him play and he was so good but at the end of it I knew he'd resent me for pushing him to play something he no longer had a passion for.

Neither of these lines up with your OP, Chief, but more to say - parenting is tough and kids don't always do or choose things we would for them.  And they also don't always understand or appreciate how decisions now impact the future.  Use your gut on when to push and when to let them "fail".  Grades and finals fall in to the push them category but use this as an opportunity to have these type of discussion around what is important and why.

 

[Gally]

I might just have a casual conversation starting with asking him what he envisions his life being.  Just as you have said that you coasted a bit and aren't in a place you could be are you happy with where you are at?  I would ask him the same kind of questions and try to pinpoint what he wants out of life.  It seems like he is smart enough to get by decently without putting in much effort.  Maybe he is ok with that.  You can discuss how this will get tougher to pull off as life goes on and he needs to start thinking about how he wants to live his life.  

There is no right or wrong if he is happy with his  outcome.  You need to convey to him the plusses and minuses of that type of effort and if the minuses are ok with him for his life choices.  

Basically try and lay out the different paths and what you can see him doing if he engages and what could happen if he doesn't.  There is more to life than grades/school/etc but those things can make life easier or harder depending on what you put into them.  I think you need to set some ground rules (maintain a B average for instance) and then be there for him to provide advice and suggestions as things are happening.  Try not to be adversarial (I know it's hard as I butted heads with my now 21 yr old daughter plenty because our work habits are vastly different).  I was that way with my daughter throughout high school and our relationship is not as good as it could be because of it.  My son (also 16 and a sophomore) and I have a different relationship as I learned from my oldest.  He is much different and his work habits are much better so it's easier for me to deal with him but I have also stepped back and let him do his thing as long as he meets my requirements.  Everything is clear to everyone and things have gone well with this approach.  

Good Luck

 

[Uruk-Hai]

@ChiefD, apologies if you already mentioned it, but does he want to go to college?

 

[mr. furley]

[No message]

 

[ChiefD]

@ChiefD, apologies if you already mentioned it, but does he want to go to college?

As of right now, yes. 

Our perspective as parents is we aren't going to push hard in the college direction IF the kids show a propensity for something they want to do as long as they are a productive member of society. For example, my 14 year old son has an incredible mechanical aptitude -  we have talked about trade school for him because he's not a big fan of school. But he's the kid who goes the extra mile and studies his ### off and everything comes easy for him. 

But our conversation with the kids has always been that we will support whatever direction you want to go career-wise but we will not support you financially indefinitely. 

 

[Gally]

I have never once been promoted in my entire career (yet I've made over a six figure salary in the IT world for about the last 15 years). I'm capable of it. I have the skills for it. But the showing up early/leaving late/playing the political corporate game was not a price I was willing to pay to gain that prize. There's more to my life than chasing that carrot. 

This is a very good point and one that needs to be discussed with the kids.  You need to figure out what you want and what is important.  If you are fine with your 6 figure pay and the work you do you don't have to press to do more.  But that is a choice you are making.  This starts with figuring out what you want and what you are ok with and then figuring out how to get on the path to what you want.  

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Its hard to give parenting advice because everyone is in a different situation, coming from different backgrounds, etc.  We had an issue with my (now) 17 year old last year, where he  also failed a math final.  He is in AP math and has a couple other AP classes, and still made the honor list overall. He's a totally clean kid, great friends, etc. but has alot of teenager in him right now so we go toe-to-toe from time to time.  I decided a while back I am not going to ride him hard regarding grades and school.  I look back at what I was doing at 17 - drinking, drugs and chasing girls (not always in an honorable way) were my main focus. I'm always on top of his grades and his school work, guiding him however I can, but I try to keep it 100% positive and encouraging, whereas I get more aggressive with him when I see him slipping in other areas of his life.  Kids have had such a terrible past 18 months, I just decided I'm not going to helicopter his grades - as long as he's doing OK, I'm going to keep my focus elsewhere.  That said, we were shocked at the F.  My wife and I both have post-grad degrees and I'm sure have never failed any test in our lives.  However, he works harder at school right now than I ever did in high school or college, so I feel I'm in a hard position to compare my experience to his.

 

[Juxtatarot]

@ChiefD Geometry? 

 

[Tom Servo]

For the gym class, a B on a final is unacceptable. He has an easy A in this class and clearly blew off the final.

1.  How do you have a final exam in gym?

2.  I once got an F in gym during a part of one of my semesters in HS.  Dad blew his stack - not at me - but at the school for allowing this.  So he raised hell with the school:

Dad: Why the hell did my son get an F in gym?

School: Well, he didn't meet certain physical standards like push-ups, etc.

Dad: Is he causing trouble?  Taking a shower?  Wearing his jock?

School: Um, no problems at all Mr. Servo.

Dad: GOOD! My son gets at least a C for behaving and doing what's asked of him with no backtalk.

The grade was changed to C

 

[El Floppo]

@ChiefD shovel to the face?

We try to get our kids to do their best based on their preparations and focus on what we and they think are important things to approach. 14yo Son is a great test taker, 10yo daughter less so, so expectations are tempered for each given decent work/approach with probing questions along the way to help them self direct (what info do you need to work on for the test, is there anything you don't understand, do you feel like you've prepared enough, etc). 

Big exams like Finals- those fall into the important realm. F...that's not preparing or trying your best- that's failure across all fronts, especially from a kid that has shown they can do the stuff. It's easy to dismiss for a kid I guess, but in reality life is full of these things that you have to prepare for and get done to the best of your ability- family, work, etc. Things that aren't your favorite subject, but need addressing.

As such my main concern would be the complacency over the failure more than the failure. Next steps are seeing why and how it happened (like getting the tutor) but more importantly making it clear that the complacency isn't going to work...somehow. so...back to the shovel to the face, imo.

 

[ChiefD]

@ChiefD Geometry? 

Algebra 2.

He took Algebra 1 in 8th grade and got a B. Never had an issue with tests but he had to work at it.

Took Geometry as a freshman last year and got a B. No issues at all and he thought it was easier than Algebra. 

I personally think his Algebra 2 teacher this year is not very good, which could be one of the main factors. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

Algebra 2.

He took Algebra 1 in 8th grade and got a B. Never had an issue with tests but he had to work at it.

Took Geometry as a freshman last year and got a B. No issues at all and he thought it was easier than Algebra. 

I personally think his Algebra 2 teacher this year is not very good, which could be one of the main factors. 

Too bad. I’ve been tutoring a friend’s daughter (also a sophomore) in math since the pandemic started. Her mom is terrible at math. I was going to offer help but we’re only in geometry so my algebra 2 is rusty.

 

[Lehigh98]

So, I have a 16 year old teenager who is a really good kid. Respectful, plays on the high school soccer team - just a good kid overall. Has made good grades all the way through his freshman year. He is now a sophomore. If you look at his report card he's making two A's, three B's, and a C. 

He just finished up his first semester finals. From all accounts he studied for his finals. Told us he was studying. Was bunkered in his room studying. 

Got an F on his math final, a C on a history final, and a B on his gym final. B in Gym? What the hell.  Other finals were fine. 

So in our house, an F at any time is unacceptable. Math is certainly not his best subject, and he is making a C in that class.  I'm ok with the C in the class so I would expect his final to be in the C range if he's trying his best.

For the history class, it's an AP class and he is making a B in that class, so I would expect his final to be in the B range. Getting a C is certainly not terrible, but to me still not acceptable.

For the gym class, a B on a final is unacceptable. He has an easy A in this class and clearly blew off the final.

So yesterday we have this discussion. My wife is more of a gentle type and my style is more direct. Not dickish, but more of a "let's figure out what's going on so it doesn't repeat itself because classes are going to get harder as you move forward and into college."

But his response is basically: "well, I'm still getting a good overall grade in the class. what's the big deal?"

And this is when I start to get pissed. I explain that NO FINAL should be getting blown off and the final is where you have to shine because when you get into college your final could end up being a huge portion of your grade.  

And this is where we clash. And where I need your help. I don't know how to get him to understand the importance of tests. And finals. 

He's a pretty laid back kid in general, and this is what worries me. He's the type of kid that will do the bare minimum of what's asked of him. And he thinks he's cool because his overall grade card looks fine. But bubbling under the surface is this character trait that I can see could be a problem down the road.

We've already told him he's getting a math tutor for the second semester, which he as agreed to. We've explained that math is one of those subjects that builds upon itself, so we need to nip this in the bud right now.

But how do I communicate the importance of all of this to him? Leave it to my wife, who is more gentle about it? Have someone else do it? At no time am I degrading or disrepectful to him during any of our communications.

I also know he's a teenager, so there is going to be that natural butting of heads. But I'm at a loss of what to do. 

Thanks for any help. 

It's funny, I have a very similar 15 yo sophomore.  He will do the minimum to get by but is in alot of AP classes and has been getting mostly (by the seat of his pants) A's.  His A's are mostly in the 90-92 range.  My problem is as much with the school as him, just about all the assignments nowadays are online.  This makes it very easy to get distracted by youtube, friends, games, etc and I think that's been happening more and more.  He will spend hours "studying" on the computer he built last year in his room.  The cycle is: his grades dip, we shut off games / youtube on his computer, grades go up, games / youtube turned back on, grades go back down, repeat.

He just had a bunch of midterms and we had tried to stress the importance and how much of his grade they will make up.  We've mentioned our frustration with the cycle above to him on multiple occasions, usually as a warning when he gets the computer back.  So he spent alot of time in his room this past week "studying" for midterms.  I get results through an app when they are uploaded by the teacher and he's just gotten some bad ones including a 50 on his programming midterm.  Not sure what to do at this point except just take the computer away entirely but "I need it for school!" and "its how I relax with friends" and he's about to be on vacation for a couple of weeks. 

Background: My wife was valedictorian of her high school and I did ok at ~15/369.  We both got things done on our own without our parents riding us about it or even having any clue what we were working on day to day.  I'm definitely also more type B but I know when I need to get my #### done.  

 

[Joe Bryant]

Good feedback here. Parenting is one of the more challenging things most people ever do in their lives. 

I obviously don't know your son or situation enough to have much specific but in general, this has worked for me.

The biggest picture most important thing I think you can make sure they know is:  You're for them.

Not that you'll let them skate by or you'll let them get away with anything or stuff like that. But that you're for them. And sometimes you and your child may have different views of what "being for them" should look like. 

It's tough but if you can get that through to them, the rest goes better.

Second, I think it's infinitely more valuable you help them become a good person than get into the right school or get the right job.

I see all the time parents bragging on their child's athletic achievements or their academic success. Tons of highly successful high school athletes are the opposite of what I'd want in a person. Getting the killer internship doesn't mean they're a good person. So keep the focus on that.

Third, it's a wild time we're living in. Kids have never had more opportunity but also more pressure. I think patience is vastly underrated. We expect kids to know at 16 what they'll do for the rest of their lives. That's simply not realistic for most people. I see kids choosing paths that seem like bad fits but they do it to please their parents. That can lead to resentment down the road. 

It's a challenge. Hang in there. 

 

[BeTheMatch]

So, I have a 16 year old teenager who is a really good kid. Respectful, plays on the high school soccer team - just a good kid overall. Has made good grades all the way through his freshman year. He is now a sophomore. If you look at his report card he's making two A's, three B's, and a C. 

He just finished up his first semester finals. From all accounts he studied for his finals. Told us he was studying. Was bunkered in his room studying. 

Got an F on his math final, a C on a history final, and a B on his gym final. B in Gym? What the hell.  Other finals were fine. 

So in our house, an F at any time is unacceptable. Math is certainly not his best subject, and he is making a C in that class.  I'm ok with the C in the class so I would expect his final to be in the C range if he's trying his best.

For the history class, it's an AP class and he is making a B in that class, so I would expect his final to be in the B range. Getting a C is certainly not terrible, but to me still not acceptable.

For the gym class, a B on a final is unacceptable. He has an easy A in this class and clearly blew off the final.

So yesterday we have this discussion. My wife is more of a gentle type and my style is more direct. Not dickish, but more of a "let's figure out what's going on so it doesn't repeat itself because classes are going to get harder as you move forward and into college."

But his response is basically: "well, I'm still getting a good overall grade in the class. what's the big deal?"

And this is when I start to get pissed. I explain that NO FINAL should be getting blown off and the final is where you have to shine because when you get into college your final could end up being a huge portion of your grade.  

And this is where we clash. And where I need your help. I don't know how to get him to understand the importance of tests. And finals. 

He's a pretty laid back kid in general, and this is what worries me. He's the type of kid that will do the bare minimum of what's asked of him. And he thinks he's cool because his overall grade card looks fine. But bubbling under the surface is this character trait that I can see could be a problem down the road.

We've already told him he's getting a math tutor for the second semester, which he as agreed to. We've explained that math is one of those subjects that builds upon itself, so we need to nip this in the bud right now.

But how do I communicate the importance of all of this to him? Leave it to my wife, who is more gentle about it? Have someone else do it? At no time am I degrading or disrepectful to him during any of our communications.

I also know he's a teenager, so there is going to be that natural butting of heads. But I'm at a loss of what to do. 

Thanks for any help. 

If it helps, it sounds like you're raising my 17-year-old son, or as I like to call him, "Idiot."

I have had many of the same conversations for the same reasons with the same results.

So if you figure it out, let me know!

 

[ChiefD]

Thanks all - good to know I'm not alone. 

Some really good feedback in here.  

 

[beer 30]

Algebra 2.

He took Algebra 1 in 8th grade and got a B. Never had an issue with tests but he had to work at it.

Took Geometry as a freshman last year and got a B. No issues at all and he thought it was easier than Algebra. 

I personally think his Algebra 2 teacher this year is not very good, which could be one of the main factors. 

Funny, I took Algebra I & II for two reasons. The skirt I was chasing was in the class and the teacher was a cool dude who I really got along with. Not so much on a teacher-student relationship but as a guy to guy thing. He was a powerlifter, I played football and was just getting into lifting. Had it not been for that, probably would have never taken the class. I understood it but it didn't light my world on fire. 

 

[Gally]

If it helps, it sounds like you're raising my 17-year-old son, or as I like to call him, "Idiot."

I have had many of the same conversations for the same reasons with the same results.

So if you figure it out, let me know!

We have gone with "dingus".  Same meaning but a little more unique...hahaha

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

To the bolded - I was this way a little also but what I see now - even people I work with - spend more time and effort trying to be lazy than actually just doing the work ....

I'm like if you put half the effort in to avoid doing the task you would already be done the task

This so much 

 

[Mookie]

We have gone with "dingus".  Same meaning but a little more unique...hahaha

We had "Meat" - He graduated college last Spring, and is a great kid.  Just lacks basic common sense at times.

 

[ChiefD]

We have gone with "dingus".  Same meaning but a little more unique...hahaha

I've used this one before. Dingus Maximus when he really does something stupid. 

 

[tri-man 47]

2 things:

#1 - tests aren't the priority, learning is and an environment in which learning is sought out rather than forced is one in which he's more likely to be successful. With this approach test performance is more likely to be enhanced - without it actually being the focus.

#2 - what engages him? and where does extra effort need to be forced because it isn't a subject he's interested in? Finding the balance between the 2 is an inexact science, but that's where I'd focus my energy. Successfully thread that needle and he'll thrive in the former and perform well enough on the latter.

This gets to the heart of things for me.  As a university professor, I actively downplay the role of traditional testing/exams. (As an aside, I just wrapped up an Accounting 101 course where testing was just a third of the grade.  The rest was online assignments (three attempts; immediate, automated feedback), some Excel training related to the accounting topics, and online group discussions with more of a broader business focus (e.g., for the inventory chapter, they shared and discussed articles on current supply chain issues).  I've gotten really good, unsolicited feedback from a few students ("..fun and informative..").)

As Mac points out, supported by the research, it's about the learning process - learning how to learn ...self-directed/self-regulated learning.  I would suggest your discussions might focus on that aspect.  Unfortunately, too many educators are all about testing and "surface" learning (such as memorizing).  Better to emphasize "deep" learning that comes from an active learning environment where students take ownership of their own learning.  Arguably, if your son wasn't motivated to prepare for the finals, some or much of the blame falls on the teachers.

If your son can develop strong learning skills, he then sets himself up for future success ...in school and in life.  Look at the work you do, Chief.  Almost all of the customers that call for service have a unique situation that needs to be addressed.  There's no "textbook" solution to turn to.  It's like Matt Damon at the end of The Martian - you solve one problem, and then the next, and then the next.  If your son can learn to analyze situations and information, and learn to solve problems, then he will have developed skills that will benefit him for life.

That said, good grades are still used as a benchmark - for scholarships; for admittance to better schools; to ideal job opportunities.  He would be well-served to keep that in mind.