this is a bad rule (1 Viewer)

[CalBear]

Comparing offensive plays to special teams plays is comparing apples to dump trucks. Punts and kickoffs are special plays with their own special sets of rules. On punts, for instance, the change of possession occurs the second the shoe strikes the ball.

That's not correct.

When does the change of possession occur? If I'm a punter, I receive the snap, and I launch it downfield with my arm where it is caught by my teammate, my team retains possession. If I receive the snap, and I launch it downfield with my foot where it is caught by my teammate, the other team gains possession. It was my impression that it was the act of foot striking ball that turned the play from an ordinary play from scrimmage into a "punt" play complete with its own special rules.

I think semantically, the state of the ball changes when it gets punted, but possession doesn't change until the punt is received or downed. For example, if the punt is blocked, the offensive team can recover and advance the ball, but it's still fourth down and if they don't get it across the first down line, the possession changes. If the punt goes beyond the line of scrimmage, the offensive/defensive teams become the punting/receiving teams, the ball becomes a kicked ball "until it is declared dead or in possession of either team", and there are a number of specific rules about that situation, such as that the punting team is not allowed to touch the ball, the punting team can't advance a muffed punt (which is different than a fumble), and so on. The ref throwing a beanbag after the punt is cleanly received is signaling the change of possession.

 

[placebo]

Pretty sure we need more rules that arbitrarily and perhaps illogically reward the defense, not less.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Comparing offensive plays to special teams plays is comparing apples to dump trucks. Punts and kickoffs are special plays with their own special sets of rules. On punts, for instance, the change of possession occurs the second the shoe strikes the ball.

That's not correct.

When does the change of possession occur? If I'm a punter, I receive the snap, and I launch it downfield with my arm where it is caught by my teammate, my team retains possession. If I receive the snap, and I launch it downfield with my foot where it is caught by my teammate, the other team gains possession. It was my impression that it was the act of foot striking ball that turned the play from an ordinary play from scrimmage into a "punt" play complete with its own special rules.

There are two questions at play here, and I'm not sure if the answers are the same:

1. when does it become a "Special Teams Play"?

and

2. when does the change of possession occur?

I'm not sure if the NFL Rulebook specifically answers either question (and I'm not sure if the rulebook even mentions the phrase "Special Teams" -- that might be an invention of the stat nerds).

As for question #2, I am not sure exactly when the change of possession occurs, but I do know that it does not take place when the foot touches the ball (because it is possible for the offensive team to retain possession after that point).

The only way I can think of for the punting team to retain possession of the ball after it is kicked is for the receiving team to fumble or muff it, either of which gets recorded in the gamebook as a turnover for the receiving team, implying that they already had possession and then lost it.

Although I'd forgotten Calbear's point that a punting team can retrieve a blocked punt while it's still behind the line of scrimmage without creating a new set of downs and was thinking that the ball was blown dead as soon as the punting team recovered. But that's only with extra points, not with punts or placekicks. That would mean the change of possession becomes a fait accompli as soon as the ball crosses the LoS after being kicked, (regardless of where the change of possession semantically takes place).

 

[Joe Summer]

Comparing offensive plays to special teams plays is comparing apples to dump trucks. Punts and kickoffs are special plays with their own special sets of rules. On punts, for instance, the change of possession occurs the second the shoe strikes the ball.

That's not correct.

When does the change of possession occur? If I'm a punter, I receive the snap, and I launch it downfield with my arm where it is caught by my teammate, my team retains possession. If I receive the snap, and I launch it downfield with my foot where it is caught by my teammate, the other team gains possession. It was my impression that it was the act of foot striking ball that turned the play from an ordinary play from scrimmage into a "punt" play complete with its own special rules.

There are two questions at play here, and I'm not sure if the answers are the same:1. when does it become a "Special Teams Play"?

and

2. when does the change of possession occur?

I'm not sure if the NFL Rulebook specifically answers either question (and I'm not sure if the rulebook even mentions the phrase "Special Teams" -- that might be an invention of the stat nerds).

As for question #2, I am not sure exactly when the change of possession occurs, but I do know that it does not take place when the foot touches the ball (because it is possible for the offensive team to retain possession after that point).

The only way I can think of for the punting team to retain possession of the ball after it is kicked is for the receiving team to fumble or muff it, either of which gets recorded in the gamebook as a turnover for the receiving team, implying that they already had possession and then lost it.

Although I'd forgotten Calbear's point that a punting team can retrieve a blocked punt while it's still behind the line of scrimmage without creating a new set of downs and was thinking that the ball was blown dead as soon as the punting team recovered. But that's only with extra points, not with punts or placekicks. That would mean the change of possession becomes a fait accompli as soon as the ball crosses the LoS after being kicked, (regardless of where the change of possession semantically takes place).

Two things:

1. The change of possession does not become a fait accompli when the ball crosses the LOS, because it is possible for the ball to bounce back behind the LOS (at which point the kicking team can recover and advance).

2. it's also possible for the kicking team to retain possession by catching the ball behind the line of scrimmage. (Obviously this is unlikely and absurd, but it's actually mentioned in the rulebook.)

 

[renesauz]

Comparing offensive plays to special teams plays is comparing apples to dump trucks. Punts and kickoffs are special plays with their own special sets of rules. On punts, for instance, the change of possession occurs the second the shoe strikes the ball.

That's not correct.

When does the change of possession occur? If I'm a punter, I receive the snap, and I launch it downfield with my arm where it is caught by my teammate, my team retains possession. If I receive the snap, and I launch it downfield with my foot where it is caught by my teammate, the other team gains possession. It was my impression that it was the act of foot striking ball that turned the play from an ordinary play from scrimmage into a "punt" play complete with its own special rules.

There are two questions at play here, and I'm not sure if the answers are the same:

1. when does it become a "Special Teams Play"?

and

2. when does the change of possession occur?

I'm not sure if the NFL Rulebook specifically answers either question (and I'm not sure if the rulebook even mentions the phrase "Special Teams" -- that might be an invention of the stat nerds).

As for question #2, I am not sure exactly when the change of possession occurs, but I do know that it does not take place when the foot touches the ball (because it is possible for the offensive team to retain possession after that point).

No they can't...not without a turnover anyway or picking up a blocked punt and running it for a first down.

Pretty sure it's considered a punt and change of possession once the punted ball crosses the line of scrimmage.

 

[Mario Kart]

Not a bad rule at all. Makes perfect sense. How could anyone argue for any kind of alternative or any kind of change?