Who is the #18 best basketball player of all-time? (1 Viewer)

[Frostillicus]

1. Michael Jordan (71%)
2. Lebron james (85%).
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (34%).
4. Wilt Chamberlain (31%).
5. Magic Johnson (33%).
6. Larry Bird (44%).
7. Bill Russell (67%).
8. Shaquille O'Neal (31%)
9. Tim Duncan (53%).
10. Hakeem Olajuwon (36%).
11. Kobe Bryant (37%).
12. Oscar Robertson (49%).
13. Stephen Curry (74%).
14. Julius Erving (37%).
15. Moses Malone (38%).
16. Kevin Durant (38%).
17. David Robinson (41%).
18. ???????????? (first to 25 votes wins)

 

[Mister CIA]

Voted Garnett.

 

[Yo Mama]

Gonna keep voting Baylor until he gets in.

 

[scoobus]

@Yo Mama by the end of this.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

I feel guilty now. Jerry West is the friggin logo FFS. It's so hard to reconcile the old school players (except for the elite handful at the very top, even them some are marginal IMO) vs the players I've actually watched play. Debates for the ages, I suppose. Cool idea @Frostillicus

 

[the moops]

Would have voted Jokic as high as 13 in this list

 

[Frostillicus]

Would have voted Jokic as high as 13 in this list

Well that's dumb. We aren't projecting the future.

 

[Jayrod]

IF Jokic stays healthy and IF he still wants to keep working hard, he has a chance for some serious all-time greatness.

He's already been the best player in the league for the past 3 years and has HOF credentials at this point. That said, he isn't at this level quite yet and neither is Giannis.

Without getting too deep into it, I think Barkley, West and KG are the next 3 guys in some order.

 

[titusbramble]

Just going to keep voting West until in, then probably Sir Charles

 

[Kev4029]

Would have voted Jokic as high as 13 in this list

Well that's dumb. We aren't projecting the future.

I wouldn't vote Jokic that high but there is something of a legitimate case to be made...

Jokic's last three years are arguably the highest three year peak of any player outside of the top 4. He has lead the NBA in every advanced stat know to man in each of those three years and when those three years are combined the gap between him and #2 may be the largest gap between the first and second best players in the league ever.

Over the last three years he has averaged a PER of 31.9 (best ever), .302 WS/48 (only 10 such non-Jokic seasons ever), had a BPM of 12.9 (best ever), while winning two MVPs (arguably should have been three), rolling through the playoffs on the way to a title (the only two teams with a better record in this millennia are the 16-17 Warriors and the 00-01 Lakers). His other advanced stats (EPM, RAPTOR, etc.) are in a similar spot.

Oh by the way, for his career he has the highest playoff PER of all time, forth highest WS/48 of all time (behind Mikan, Jordan, Lebron), and second highest BPM (behind Jordan). His career counting stats in the playoffs aren't bad either at 27.5/12.1/7.3 in 68 games - those are 9th all time, 17th all time (the only other two "modern" players above him are Moses and Barkley), and 19th all time (all guards above him).

After two or three more healthy years (taking him through his age 29 or 30 season - i.e. his peak), he could be in that Magic/Bird/Russell conversation.

 

[msudaisy26]

So we have 5 guys that are current players that are in the conversation for top 20 all time. (At this time). What is the ceiling for these players assuming things go well for them, but not perfect for their careers.

LeBron - can't really move. He is 1a or 1b

Curry - can he pass Magic for best pg ever and top 5?

Jokic - best center of all time and top 3 ranking?

Durant - best small forward ever not named LeBron? Top 7

Giannis - best power forward ever? Top 7 or 8

 

[Alex P Keaton]

So we have 5 guys that are current players that are in the conversation for top 20 all time. (At this time). What is the ceiling for these players assuming things go well for them, but not perfect for their careers.

LeBron - can't really move. He is 1a or 1b

Curry - can he pass Magic for best pg ever and top 5?

Jokic - best center of all time and top 3 ranking?

Durant - best small forward ever not named LeBron? Top 7

Giannis - best power forward ever? Top 7 or 8

LeBron is a solid 1B, 2 or 3, depending on how you feel about Kareem. So impossible to compare across eras when it comes to dominant, generational players.

IMO Curry would need to win one more to get past Magic, or be a top-5 player for another year or two. I just don’t see that happening, unfortunately, as he’s my favorite player ever not named Tim Hardaway.

Jokic - simply can’t see what it would take to convince me that he’s the best center all time. I mean, unless he suddenly plays defense, I just don’t see it.

Durant - would like to see him win a title on his own, without Curry and Draymond. He was a beast for both of those titles, but……they still weren’t his really. (They were, they weren’t, you guys all know what I mean) If he wins a title on his own, top-10 is realistic. Otherwise he never gets into top-20 IMO.

Giannis - love him, but he’s never passing Tim Duncan. Zero chance. Zilch. Dude can’t shoot the ball. (And I’m from WI; not anti-Giannis)

 

[Frostillicus]

So we have 5 guys that are current players that are in the conversation for top 20 all time. (At this time). What is the ceiling for these players assuming things go well for them, but not perfect for their careers.

LeBron - can't really move. He is 1a or 1b

Curry - can he pass Magic for best pg ever and top 5?

Jokic - best center of all time and top 3 ranking?

Durant - best small forward ever not named LeBron? Top 7

Giannis - best power forward ever? Top 7 or 8

Lebron - Could conceivably win 2 more titles so I won't say he can't move, but it's very unlikely. No more MVPs most likely so he probably is not moving.

Curry - As a Magic lover I don't see it, but if he manages some more hardware I'm going to get nervous.

Jokic - Can he win another 4 MVPs? I don't think he can pass Kareem, and probably not Russell or Wilt. I could see him passing Shaq.

Durant - I don't think he can get much higher, and certainly not top 10, without at least 1 more MVP and 1 more title.

Giannis - I don't see top 10 nor best PF ever. He could, as much as it hurts, pass KG and Dirk. And Barkley.

 

[Navin Johnson]

So we have 5 guys that are current players that are in the conversation for top 20 all time. (At this time). What is the ceiling for these players assuming things go well for them, but not perfect for their careers.

LeBron - can't really move. He is 1a or 1b

Curry - can he pass Magic for best pg ever and top 5?

Jokic - best center of all time and top 3 ranking?

Durant - best small forward ever not named LeBron? Top 7

Giannis - best power forward ever? Top 7 or 8

LeBron is a solid 1B, 2 or 3, depending on how you feel about Kareem. So impossible to compare across eras when it comes to dominant, generational players.

IMO Curry would need to win one more to get past Magic, or be a top-5 player for another year or two. I just don’t see that happening, unfortunately, as he’s my favorite player ever not named Tim Hardaway.

Jokic - simply can’t see what it would take to convince me that he’s the best center all time. I mean, unless he suddenly plays defense, I just don’t see it.

Durant - would like to see him win a title on his own, without Curry and Draymond. He was a beast for both of those titles, but……they still weren’t his really. (They were, they weren’t, you guys all know what I mean) If he wins a title on his own, top-10 is realistic. Otherwise he never gets into top-20 IMO.

Giannis - love him, but he’s never passing Tim Duncan. Zero chance. Zilch. Dude can’t shoot the ball. (And I’m from WI; not anti-Giannis)

His eFG% is literally 10% higher than Timmy's

 

[scoobus]

So we have 5 guys that are current players that are in the conversation for top 20 all time. (At this time). What is the ceiling for these players assuming things go well for them, but not perfect for their careers.

LeBron - can't really move. He is 1a or 1b

Curry - can he pass Magic for best pg ever and top 5?

Jokic - best center of all time and top 3 ranking?

Durant - best small forward ever not named LeBron? Top 7

Giannis - best power forward ever? Top 7 or 8

LeBron is a solid 1B, 2 or 3, depending on how you feel about Kareem. So impossible to compare across eras when it comes to dominant, generational players.

IMO Curry would need to win one more to get past Magic, or be a top-5 player for another year or two. I just don’t see that happening, unfortunately, as he’s my favorite player ever not named Tim Hardaway.

Jokic - simply can’t see what it would take to convince me that he’s the best center all time. I mean, unless he suddenly plays defense, I just don’t see it.

Durant - would like to see him win a title on his own, without Curry and Draymond. He was a beast for both of those titles, but……they still weren’t his really. (They were, they weren’t, you guys all know what I mean) If he wins a title on his own, top-10 is realistic. Otherwise he never gets into top-20 IMO.

Giannis - love him, but he’s never passing Tim Duncan. Zero chance. Zilch. Dude can’t shoot the ball. (And I’m from WI; not anti-Giannis)

His eFG% is literally 10% higher than Timmy's

That stat has nothing to do with the ability to shoot the ball.

 

[Jayrod]

I believe Jokic will be top 10, maybe even crack top 5 when done. His game will age well and he DOES play highly effective defense.

LeBron is locked at 2.

I believe Durant isn't moving any higher either.

Curry could climb a couple spots, but I don't think he passes Magic.

As for Giannis I have no idea...could never gain another spot or finish as #3. I'd bet somewhere in between, but it takes some major achievements to climb the top 20 ladder.

 

[TripItUp]

Steve Nash has multiple MVPs and isn't a poll option yet?

 

[Frostillicus]

Steve Nash has multiple MVPs and isn't a poll option yet?

For the most part I'm just using teh list the Athletic put out of the top 75 recently to add guys and they hve Nash at 38.

 

[TripItUp]

For the most part I'm just using teh list the Athletic put out of the top 75 recently to add guys and they hve Nash at 38.

Fair enough. Lower than I thought he would be but not surprised.

The Nash ranking conversation is polarizing.

 

[Frostillicus]

For the most part I'm just using teh list the Athletic put out of the top 75 recently to add guys and they hve Nash at 38.

Fair enough. Lower than I thought he would be but not surprised.

The Nash ranking conversation is polarizing.

**** Isiah tho, so I'll put Nash on here before him.

 

[msudaisy26]

Steve Nash has multiple MVPs and isn't a poll option yet?

Lol you are all over the map. Nash is barely a top 10 point guard of all time and he should be in the discussion as one of the 20 best players ever? Plus you were in here preaching defense and he might be one of the worst defenders ever.

 

[The Z Machine]

But Jokic is doughy and looks goofy.

He'll never pass Shaq because Shaq had a rap album, been in movies, and as I said before is really funny. Jokic is none of those things, so he gets dinged.

Like it or not, Duncan gets dinged for having no personality either.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Giannis and Jokic both have a chance at the top 10 with the way they are going.

Curry is such a weird one in that he has been all-NBA 1st only four times, which is behind pretty much everyone else in the top 10-ish, but his rep as the best shooter ever and four rings have elevated him.

I don't see Durant cracking the top 10 ever. He will be stuck in that 16-20 range. Great scorer, but he was hurt too much for the bulk of his prime years and the Nets fiasco hurt him more than some want to admit.

 

[Keith R]

Would have voted Jokic as high as 13 in this list

Well that's dumb. We aren't projecting the future.

I wouldn't vote Jokic that high but there is something of a legitimate case to be made...

Jokic's last three years are arguably the highest three year peak of any player outside of the top 4. He has lead the NBA in every advanced stat know to man in each of those three years and when those three years are combined the gap between him and #2 may be the largest gap between the first and second best players in the league ever.

Over the last three years he has averaged a PER of 31.9 (best ever), .302 WS/48 (only 10 such non-Jokic seasons ever), had a BPM of 12.9 (best ever), while winning two MVPs (arguably should have been three), rolling through the playoffs on the way to a title (the only two teams with a better record in this millennia are the 16-17 Warriors and the 00-01 Lakers). His other advanced stats (EPM, RAPTOR, etc.) are in a similar spot.

Oh by the way, for his career he has the highest playoff PER of all time, forth highest WS/48 of all time (behind Mikan, Jordan, Lebron), and second highest BPM (behind Jordan). His career counting stats in the playoffs aren't bad either at 27.5/12.1/7.3 in 68 games - those are 9th all time, 17th all time (the only other two "modern" players above him are Moses and Barkley), and 19th all time (all guards above him).

After two or three more healthy years (taking him through his age 29 or 30 season - i.e. his peak), he could be in that Magic/Bird/Russell conversation.

Plus he made Denver the NBA champs. Freaking DENVER! That's almost as unthinkable as Cleveland winning at title.. in anything.

 

[Jayrod]

So for this pole...
I went with Sir Charles. I always knew he was a great player, but his stats are actually better than I remember. Particularly his scoring efficiency, rebounding and advanced stats.

He never made an all-Def team and never won a championship, but I think he is the greatest player without a ring. I'd put him as a top 5 rebounder of all-time, and a top 20 offensive player. He wasn't just a member of the Dream team, but one of their top players (Bird & Magic were getting old by then). Also, the only reason he doesn't have a ring is MJ.

 

[kevzilla]

Flashiness appears to be important here, not sure why. Guys like Wes Unseld and James Worthy should at least be getting some discussion.

 

[msudaisy26]

Flashiness appears to be important here, not sure why. Guys like Wes Unseld and James Worthy should at least be getting some discussion.

They will in about 20 picks

 

[Frostillicus]

Flashiness appears to be important here, not sure why. Guys like Wes Unseld and James Worthy should at least be getting some discussion.

Great players but not remotely in the league of the guys we are currently discussing.

 

[dino259]

Need moor votes

 

[Spartans Rule]

Unseld may have set some amazing screens and thrown some sweet outlet passes, but it’s hard to think of a 6-7 center who didn’t block many shots and averaged 10.8 PPG for his career on par with the guys in the current poll.

Worthy spent his career on loaded Laker teams, which got him rings and helped his efficiency but hurt his counting stats. If he swaps places with say Dominique Wilkins or Alex English, does he score 30 per game? Do those teams win more? Do the Lakers still have as much success? Tough to say.

 

[nirad3]

So for this pole...
I went with Sir Charles. I always knew he was a great player, but his stats are actually better than I remember. Particularly his scoring efficiency, rebounding and advanced stats.

He never made an all-Def team and never won a championship, but I think he is the greatest player without a ring. I'd put him as a top 5 rebounder of all-time, and a top 20 offensive player. He wasn't just a member of the Dream team, but one of their top players (Bird & Magic were getting old by then). Also, the only reason he doesn't have a ring is MJ.

Agree w/ all of this.

 

[Kev4029]

Flashiness appears to be important here, not sure why. Guys like Wes Unseld and James Worthy should at least be getting some discussion.

They will in about 20 picks

I think this will die out well before Worthy or Unseld are in serious consideration. For reference, The Athletic had Worthy at 59 and Unseld at 60. Behind them are guys like Jokic, Dame, and Embiid who have done some climbing in the last two years. Plus some more contemporary players that I think may be rated a little higher by this group than The Athletic's voters like Carmelo, Pau Gasol, and Draymond Green. The Athletic also has Bill Walton at 64 who would be an interesting guy to put to a popular vote - his peak vs his career counting stats has to be the biggest in NBA history.

 

[Jayrod]

Flashiness appears to be important here, not sure why. Guys like Wes Unseld and James Worthy should at least be getting some discussion.

They will in about 20 picks

I think this will die out well before Worthy or Unseld are in serious consideration. For reference, The Athletic had Worthy at 59 and Unseld at 60. Behind them are guys like Jokic, Dame, and Embiid who have done some climbing in the last two years. Plus some more contemporary players that I think may be rated a little higher by this group than The Athletic's voters like Carmelo, Pau Gasol, and Draymond Green. The Athletic also has Bill Walton at 64 who would be an interesting guy to put to a popular vote - his peak vs his career counting stats has to be the biggest in NBA history.

When Unseld was mentioned, I was going to say Walton should come before him. They both burned bright and short, but Walton is widely considered the better player and has the second ring with the Celtics as well as the ridiculous NCAA success.

 

[Jayrod]

I think we could safely call this one. Don't see anyone getting 12+ votes before West gets 2 more.

 

[TripItUp]

People have Stockton ahead of Nash because.........

 

[Bogart]

People have Stockton ahead of Nash because.........

Short shorts.

 

[Frostillicus]

People have Stockton ahead of Nash because.........

Probably because Stockton is the all-time leader in assists (Nash is #5), the all-time leader in assist pct (Nash is #7), the all-time leader in steals (Nash is #235 - tied with Robert Covington), and #2 in assists per game (Nash is #9), and #5 in steals per game. He also is a 10x All-Star (Nash 8 times) and was All-Nba 11 times (Nash 7x) and All-Defense 5x to zero. Stockton led the league in assists 9 times to 5 for Nash and also won 2 steals titles.

Nash does have the two MVPs but Stockton's Offensive Rating in his best year was better than either of Nash's MVP years and Stockton played defense.

So that's probably why.