Who Will Win a Bowl First? (1 Viewer)

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

I'm still dumbfounded over this situation, even as it got ugly, I figured they might find a way to find peace. And even though Cutler might not be the prototypical player for the Patriot O, you make the system fit the players and not vice versa, when they are studs.

So not to drag poor Matt Cassel into this, but he's relevant, since apparently Josh McDaniels love for him drove this wedge between him and Cutler. With that in mind, of these three principles, who do you think is the closest to winning a bowl?

I think its Cutler and it ain't close, I'd be he's holding the hardware within 5 years. Denver should just about be coming out of their rebuilding program then and Cassel to me just a system guy and not a stud QB, like a, i don't know, Jay Cutler.

And I know we have some acrimony and bias toward Cutler here, perhaps well deserved, but really think logically in answering this one, can you see him not being the first to a ring, especially with Lovie and that supporting cast?

 

[Adebisi]

Cutler is obviously the closest right now, but I still think there are probably 3 or 4 teams in the AFC that are better than any team in the NFC, with the possible exception of the Giants. But I'm not expecting much from Kansas City or Denver any time soon, and Chicago should at least be decent, so I guess that means Cutler is the closest.

 

[Banger]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

 

[PatsWillWin]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

 

[pizzatyme]

Those voting for Cassell must think he's still playing for the Patriots.

Those voting for McDaniel must think he's still coaching for the Patriots.

Those voting for Cutler are hoping he matures to his talent level.

I voted for Cutler.

 

[pizzatyme]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

Not sure what a previous team record has to do with current situation, but I agree that's the reason for the votes.

 

[Banger]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...you think he's bringing that to KC? What is your guess at his win-loss record this year? A good year will be 6 wins. Did you see the KC defense? They set a record for the least sacks in the NFL. They are a complete joke.

 

[PatsWillWin]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...you think he's bringing that to KC? What is your guess at his win-loss record this year? A good year will be 6 wins. Did you see the KC defense? They set a record for the least sacks in the NFL. They are a complete joke.

I believe the poll is who will win a Bowl first, not who is more likely to win one this year.

 

[ImTheScientist]

I voted Cutler. That defense combined with Cutler is going to be great.

 

[pollardsvision]

I voted for McD.

I don't believe in the Bears D anymore and I think they are at least 4-5 years away from having the kind of team around Cutler that he can win with, given the draft picks they just gave up. This very well could be the defense's last stand and they don't have the pieces to rebuild it in time. I don't have any reason to believe Cutler will ever re-sign with the Bears, especially when they never get him a decent target. He'll be leaving in 3 years with modest W/L results, frustrated that he experienced his best year as a passer, by far, in his 2nd season as a starter. I forsee Cutler taking a similar path as the last young franchise QB that spent his prime on a sub-par team, Carson Palmer.

Meanwhile, in Denver, they will be stocking up on quality young talent just in time for Jack Elway to make his arrival.

 

[Banger]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...you think he's bringing that to KC? What is your guess at his win-loss record this year? A good year will be 6 wins. Did you see the KC defense? They set a record for the least sacks in the NFL. They are a complete joke.

I believe the poll is who will win a Bowl first, not who is more likely to win one this year.

Cassel may not be in KC after this year.

 

[Sweet Love]

"None of the above" down?

 

[pollardsvision]

I voted Cutler. That defense combined with Cutler is going to be great.

What the Bears really need is Shane Falco. (if this isn't who I think it is, disregard that).

 

[PatsWillWin]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...you think he's bringing that to KC? What is your guess at his win-loss record this year? A good year will be 6 wins. Did you see the KC defense? They set a record for the least sacks in the NFL. They are a complete joke.

I believe the poll is who will win a Bowl first, not who is more likely to win one this year.

Cassel may not be in KC after this year.

Okay?

 

[Ghost Rider]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...

No, no, no. W/L record is all that matters, remember? Kerry Collins is better than Drew Brees, Philip Rivers and Kurt Warner, because he won more games than any of those guys did in 2008.

 

[Norseman]

"None of the above" down?

 

[Banger]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...

No, no, no. W/L record is all that matters, remember? Kerry Collins is better than Drew Brees, Philip Rivers and Kurt Warner, because he won more games than any of those guys did in 2008.

You can add Frerotte to your list as well. As I said in another post..Vince Young was/is a winner right? Wasn't that what everyone argued after college, then in the NFL when he "led" his team to a playoff birth?

 

[PatsWillWin]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...

No, no, no. W/L record is all that matters, remember? Kerry Collins is better than Drew Brees, Philip Rivers and Kurt Warner, because he won more games than any of those guys did in 2008.

You can add Frerotte to your list as well. As I said in another post..Vince Young was/is a winner right? Wasn't that what everyone argued after college, then in the NFL when he "led" his team to a playoff birth?

Not sure why you are having trouble staying on track here.

 

[Zoomanji]

Cutler will be a NFL QB longer than than Cassell.

Both will be starting QBs longer than McDaniel is a HC. IMO

 

[Banger]

Not sure why you are having trouble staying on track here.

I'm not very smart.

 

[Shane Falco]

I voted Cutler. That defense combined with Cutler is going to be great.

What the Bears really need is Shane Falco. (if this isn't who I think it is, disregard that).

I'm here for you!Just come by my boat and pick me upI'm ready to play

 

[PatsWillWin]

I voted Cutler. That defense combined with Cutler is going to be great.

What the Bears really need is Shane Falco. (if this isn't who I think it is, disregard that).

I'm here for you!

Just come by my boat and pick me up

I'm ready to play

HEART.

 

[twitch]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...you think he's bringing that to KC? What is your guess at his win-loss record this year? A good year will be 6 wins. Did you see the KC defense? They set a record for the least sacks in the NFL. They are a complete joke.

I keep hearing this from you. Wins and losses mean nothing. Huh? Look at Atlanta. Got a new QB who actually WON in college, and thus knew how to WIN, and what happened? Look at Miami. God awful team. Got a QB who knew how to win. What happened? The Jets. Again, a QB with a history of winning. What happened? Now, Green Bay. A QB who hadnt won anything in years. What happened? Put up #s and lost. Tennessee. End up with Collins, a guy who'd played in 2 NFCC games and a Superbowl. What happened? Some guys win. Some guys put up #s. After several years of not winning, Im done making excuses for a guy.

 

[Despyzer]

Although I'm not a big fan of his attitude, Cutler is the best QB of the three and is residing on the best team and is playing in the weaker of the conferences. This really isn't a tough choice.

 

[pizzatyme]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...you think he's bringing that to KC? What is your guess at his win-loss record this year? A good year will be 6 wins. Did you see the KC defense? They set a record for the least sacks in the NFL. They are a complete joke.

I keep hearing this from you. Wins and losses mean nothing. Huh? Look at Atlanta. Got a new QB who actually WON in college, and thus knew how to WIN, and what happened? Look at Miami. God awful team. Got a QB who knew how to win. What happened? The Jets. Again, a QB with a history of winning. What happened? Now, Green Bay. A QB who hadnt won anything in years. What happened? Put up #s and lost. Tennessee. End up with Collins, a guy who'd played in 2 NFFC games and a Superbowl. What happened? Some guys win. Some guys put up #s. After several years of not winning, Im done making excuses for a guy.

With this logic, we should see Cassell just go nuts for the Chiefs. Once a loser always a loser, once a winner always a winner, right?

 

[Banger]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...you think he's bringing that to KC? What is your guess at his win-loss record this year? A good year will be 6 wins. Did you see the KC defense? They set a record for the least sacks in the NFL. They are a complete joke.

I keep hearing this from you. Wins and losses mean nothing. Huh? Look at Atlanta. Got a new QB who actually WON in college, and thus knew how to WIN, and what happened? Look at Miami. God awful team. Got a QB who knew how to win. What happened? The Jets. Again, a QB with a history of winning. What happened? Now, Green Bay. A QB who hadnt won anything in years. What happened? Put up #s and lost. Tennessee. End up with Collins, a guy who'd been played in 2 NFFC games and a Superbowl. What happened? Some guys win. Some guys put up #s. After several years of not winning, Im done making excuses for a guy.

Were those the only changes that went on in Atl and Miami? Did Atlanta get a new coaching staff, new stud RB? Did Miami bring in a new creative staff and revamp roster? Was Leinart a winner in college? How about Vince Young?If Denver's defense doesn't let up 2 4th qtr TD's against Buff at the end of the year, the Bronco's go 9-7 and make the playoffs, does that somehow make Cutler a better QB? If Cutler gets hurt midway through the year when his team has a winning record does that somehow make him a better QB because he has a "winning" record now?

Wins and losses are important but they aren't created in a vaccumm and are a piece of a much larger puzzle...individual talent, surrounding personnel, coaching, special teams, defense, schedule, injuries, luck. The game is not QB A vs. QB B, it's not bowling or golf. I really can't believe that people seriously can't understand this concept. I tend to think it's picking a side in an argument and sticking with it to the bitter end.

A similar argument was made for YEARS about Peyton about how he was a good stats QB but wasn't a winner. He couldn't win the big game and was a choker....that was up until of course he won the big game.

 

[pollardsvision]

I voted Cutler. That defense combined with Cutler is going to be great.

What the Bears really need is Shane Falco. (if this isn't who I think it is, disregard that).

I'm here for you!

Just come by my boat and pick me up

I'm ready to play

HEART.

Falco would make the Bears instant SB contenders. Falco certainly wouldn't whine at the thought of being replaced.

 

[Ghost Rider]

With this logic, we should see Cassell just go nuts for the Chiefs. Once a loser always a loser, once a winner always a winner, right?

You just wait and see...when the Chiefs improve their win total in '09, we will hear from tons of NE homers who will still be stroking Cassel as if he made the difference, when it is almost impossible not to improve on 2-14.

 

[wadegarrett]

No 'None of the Above' option?

 

[Ghost Rider]

If Denver's defense doesn't let up 2 4th qtr TD's against Buff at the end of the year, the Bronco's go 9-7 and make the playoffs, does that somehow make Cutler a better QB? If Cutler gets hurt midway through the year when his team has a winning record does that somehow make him a better QB because he has a "winning" record now? Wins and losses are important but they aren't created in a vaccumm and are a piece of a much larger puzzle...individual talent, surrounding personnel, coaching, special teams, defense, schedule, injuries, luck. The game is not QB A vs. QB B, it's not bowling or golf. I really can't believe that people seriously can't understand this concept. I tend to think it's picking a side in an argument and sticking with it to the bitter end.

, especially in regards to your last sentence.

 

[twitch]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...you think he's bringing that to KC? What is your guess at his win-loss record this year? A good year will be 6 wins. Did you see the KC defense? They set a record for the least sacks in the NFL. They are a complete joke.

I keep hearing this from you. Wins and losses mean nothing. Huh? Look at Atlanta. Got a new QB who actually WON in college, and thus knew how to WIN, and what happened? Look at Miami. God awful team. Got a QB who knew how to win. What happened? The Jets. Again, a QB with a history of winning. What happened? Now, Green Bay. A QB who hadnt won anything in years. What happened? Put up #s and lost. Tennessee. End up with Collins, a guy who'd been played in 2 NFFC games and a Superbowl. What happened? Some guys win. Some guys put up #s. After several years of not winning, Im done making excuses for a guy.

Were those the only changes that went on in Atl and Miami? Did Atlanta get a new coaching staff, new stud RB? Did Miami bring in a new creative staff and revamp roster? Was Leinart a winner in college? How about Vince Young?If Denver's defense doesn't let up 2 4th qtr TD's against Buff at the end of the year, the Bronco's go 9-7 and make the playoffs, does that somehow make Cutler a better QB? If Cutler gets hurt midway through the year when his team has a winning record does that somehow make him a better QB because he has a "winning" record now?

Wins and losses are important but they aren't created in a vaccumm and are a piece of a much larger puzzle...individual talent, surrounding personnel, coaching, special teams, defense, schedule, injuries, luck. The game is not QB A vs. QB B, it's not bowling or golf. I really can't believe that people seriously can't understand this concept. I tend to think it's picking a side in an argument and sticking with it to the bitter end.

Right. It was everything else, not the most important position on the field in each of those cases just last year that I provided. Youve obviously picked your side in this argument, and are choosing to believe a QB has little effect on winning. Until the bitter end.

 

[TitusIII]

If Bears secondary doesn't suck this year, and they can replace some of their aging vets with young studs, I think they can win a SuperBowl in the next few years. Angelo is pretty good at finding solid defensive players for the most part, and now that he really only needs to find a possesion WR, I like the Cutler option.

Cassel, if he is the real deal, will have the Chiefs and their improved D in the playoff hunt.

Denver is probably screwed.

 

[Shane Falco]

I voted Cutler. That defense combined with Cutler is going to be great.

What the Bears really need is Shane Falco. (if this isn't who I think it is, disregard that).

I'm here for you!

Just come by my boat and pick me up

I'm ready to play

HEART.

Falco would make the Bears instant SB contenders. Falco certainly wouldn't whine at the thought of being replaced.

Yes sir. I just want a chance to show I can still play.

 

[twitch]

With this logic, we should see Cassell just go nuts for the Chiefs. Once a loser always a loser, once a winner always a winner, right?

You just wait and see...when the Chiefs improve their win total in '09, we will hear from tons of NE homers who will still be stroking Cassel as if he made the difference, when it is almost impossible not to improve on 2-14.

I would definitely do that, but no differently than I just pointed out ATLANTA, MIAMI and the JETS' 1-yr turnarounds. I must be stroking all those guys, too. Give it a rest.

 

[Chase Stuart]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...you think he's bringing that to KC? What is your guess at his win-loss record this year? A good year will be 6 wins. Did you see the KC defense? They set a record for the least sacks in the NFL. They are a complete joke.

I keep hearing this from you. Wins and losses mean nothing. Huh? Look at Atlanta. Got a new QB who actually WON in college, and thus knew how to WIN, and what happened? Look at Miami. God awful team. Got a QB who knew how to win. What happened? The Jets. Again, a QB with a history of winning. What happened? Now, Green Bay. A QB who hadnt won anything in years. What happened? Put up #s and lost. Tennessee. End up with Collins, a guy who'd played in 2 NFCC games and a Superbowl. What happened? Some guys win. Some guys put up #s. After several years of not winning, Im done making excuses for a guy.

Kerry Collins, who was 15 games under .500 for his career before last season, is a "winner"? Seriously?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Kerry Collins, who was 15 games under .500 for his career before last season, is a "winner"? Seriously?

When he plays on a team that had the 7th best rushing attack and a defense that allowed the 2nd fewest points in the NFL, he is.

 

[pizzatyme]

What's with the Cassel votes? He's on a worse team and he's a worse QB.

Winning record.

c'mon...this win/loss thing is silly...you think he's bringing that to KC? What is your guess at his win-loss record this year? A good year will be 6 wins. Did you see the KC defense? They set a record for the least sacks in the NFL. They are a complete joke.

I keep hearing this from you. Wins and losses mean nothing. Huh? Look at Atlanta. Got a new QB who actually WON in college, and thus knew how to WIN, and what happened? Look at Miami. God awful team. Got a QB who knew how to win. What happened? The Jets. Again, a QB with a history of winning. What happened? Now, Green Bay. A QB who hadnt won anything in years. What happened? Put up #s and lost. Tennessee. End up with Collins, a guy who'd played in 2 NFCC games and a Superbowl. What happened? Some guys win. Some guys put up #s. After several years of not winning, Im done making excuses for a guy.

Kerry Collins, who was 15 games under .500 for his career before last season, is a "winner"? Seriously?

By his logic, Ryan Leaf is a winner too!

 

[Banger]

Were those the only changes that went on in Atl and Miami? Did Atlanta get a new coaching staff, new stud RB? Did Miami bring in a new creative staff and revamp roster? Was Leinart a winner in college? How about Vince Young?

If Denver's defense doesn't let up 2 4th qtr TD's against Buff at the end of the year, the Bronco's go 9-7 and make the playoffs, does that somehow make Cutler a better QB? If Cutler gets hurt midway through the year when his team has a winning record does that somehow make him a better QB because he has a "winning" record now?

Wins and losses are important but they aren't created in a vaccumm and are a piece of a much larger puzzle...individual talent, surrounding personnel, coaching, special teams, defense, schedule, injuries, luck. The game is not QB A vs. QB B, it's not bowling or golf. I really can't believe that people seriously can't understand this concept. I tend to think it's picking a side in an argument and sticking with it to the bitter end.

Right. It was everything else, not the most important position on the field in each of those cases just last year that I provided. Youve obviously picked your side in this argument, and are choosing to believe a QB has little effect on winning. Until the bitter end.

I don't own Cutler in any leagues, I'm not a Denver fan and I have no horse in this race. I've watched most of his games and I think he's a terrific talent (and I'm shocked that some people cannot see it with the quality of FF'ers on the board). The win loss thing is a smoke screen...I understand that the QB has an effect on winning but so does the defense, the coaching, special teams, personnel, schedule, etc. They are all pieces in the puzzle, would you not agree? I've posted this before for you but thought I'd post it again...The records of the teams as bad or worse than they were defensively were...

Raiders (5-11)

Rams (2-14)

Broncos (8-8)

Seattle (4-12)

KC (2-14)

Det (0-16)

which one of these does not belong?

Denver had the #2 ranked offense (#7 in passing TDs) in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

Also, this is a 2nd year QB and his career record is 17-20 and I think I saw yesterday someone posted Peyton's record at the same point was like 19-18 (with a better defense). So what does that mean? Nothing.

 

[Banger]

Kerry Collins, who was 15 games under .500 for his career before last season, is a "winner"? Seriously?

When he plays on a team that had the 7th best rushing attack and a defense that allowed the 2nd fewest points in the NFL, he is.

:(

 

[greggorymac]

Cutler,

Plays in the NFC North, who's conference and division give him a better shot (between the three choices in the poll) of making the playoffs. All he then has to do is get lucky and win 2-3 games. It also helps that the CHI Defense is established, while KC's is young and Denver currently does not have one.

 

[twitch]

Gimme a break. Collins was 12-4 leading Carolina to a title game. He was 12-4 with the Giants and a SB QB. Yes. The man knows how to win. He also led Penn State to an undefeated season his sr. season as I recall. Right, he's a winner in my book. Did he win every last game, or not lead some bad teams? Lets maintain some perspective.

 

[twitch]

Were those the only changes that went on in Atl and Miami? Did Atlanta get a new coaching staff, new stud RB? Did Miami bring in a new creative staff and revamp roster? Was Leinart a winner in college? How about Vince Young?

If Denver's defense doesn't let up 2 4th qtr TD's against Buff at the end of the year, the Bronco's go 9-7 and make the playoffs, does that somehow make Cutler a better QB? If Cutler gets hurt midway through the year when his team has a winning record does that somehow make him a better QB because he has a "winning" record now?

Wins and losses are important but they aren't created in a vaccumm and are a piece of a much larger puzzle...individual talent, surrounding personnel, coaching, special teams, defense, schedule, injuries, luck. The game is not QB A vs. QB B, it's not bowling or golf. I really can't believe that people seriously can't understand this concept. I tend to think it's picking a side in an argument and sticking with it to the bitter end.

Right. It was everything else, not the most important position on the field in each of those cases just last year that I provided. Youve obviously picked your side in this argument, and are choosing to believe a QB has little effect on winning. Until the bitter end.

I don't own Cutler in any leagues, I'm not a Denver fan and I have no horse in this race. I've watched most of his games and I think he's a terrific talent (and I'm shocked that some people cannot see it with the quality of FF'ers on the board). The win loss thing is a smoke screen...I understand that the QB has an effect on winning but so does the defense, the coaching, special teams, personnel, schedule, etc. They are all pieces in the puzzle, would you not agree? I've posted this before for you but thought I'd post it again...The records of the teams as bad or worse than they were defensively were...

Raiders (5-11)

Rams (2-14)

Broncos (8-8)

Seattle (4-12)

KC (2-14)

Det (0-16)

which one of these does not belong?

Denver had the #2 ranked offense (#7 in passing TDs) in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

Also, this is a 2nd year QB and his career record is 17-20 and I think I saw yesterday someone posted Peyton's record at the same point was like 19-18 (with a better defense). So what does that mean? Nothing.

Peyton Manning went 13-3 his 2nd season with a garbage D. Why arent you offering up little nuggets like that, instead of disguising his overall record. He won in college. And he figured out pretty quick how to win in the pros. I cant honestly believe youre even comparing the guy to Peyton Manning.

 

[pizzatyme]

Gimme a break. Collins was 12-4 leading Carolina to a title game. He was 12-4 with the Giants and a SB QB. Yes. The man knows how to win. He also led Penn State to an undefeated season his sr. season as I recall. Right, he's a winner in my book. Did he win every last game, or not lead some bad teams? Lets maintain some perspective.

With this perspective, Trent Dilfer is a winner too. Face it, the QB is only as good as the team surrounding him. Only the elite QBs can lift the team around them to new highs.

 

[twitch]

Gimme a break. Collins was 12-4 leading Carolina to a title game. He was 12-4 with the Giants and a SB QB. Yes. The man knows how to win. He also led Penn State to an undefeated season his sr. season as I recall. Right, he's a winner in my book. Did he win every last game, or not lead some bad teams? Lets maintain some perspective.

With this perspective, Trent Dilfer is a winner too. Face it, the QB is only as good as the team surrounding him. Only the elite QBs can lift the team around them to new highs.

I cannot believe Ive got a Colts fan breathing down my neck like this, after I just pointed out how ridiculous it is to compare Peyton Manning to Jay Cutler. We both know how much of a workaholic Manning is. Brady is the same way. And for as good as their physical skills are, its their intangible leadership skills that elevate their teams. Its their intensity, their focus, their drive, their attitudes, their tenacity that have forged their legacy. I havent said for a moment a QB doesnt need support. Obviously he does. But a big arm and some #s dont make a guy a winner. Im done arguing that point.

 

[Banger]

Were those the only changes that went on in Atl and Miami? Did Atlanta get a new coaching staff, new stud RB? Did Miami bring in a new creative staff and revamp roster? Was Leinart a winner in college? How about Vince Young?

If Denver's defense doesn't let up 2 4th qtr TD's against Buff at the end of the year, the Bronco's go 9-7 and make the playoffs, does that somehow make Cutler a better QB? If Cutler gets hurt midway through the year when his team has a winning record does that somehow make him a better QB because he has a "winning" record now?

Wins and losses are important but they aren't created in a vaccumm and are a piece of a much larger puzzle...individual talent, surrounding personnel, coaching, special teams, defense, schedule, injuries, luck. The game is not QB A vs. QB B, it's not bowling or golf. I really can't believe that people seriously can't understand this concept. I tend to think it's picking a side in an argument and sticking with it to the bitter end.

Right. It was everything else, not the most important position on the field in each of those cases just last year that I provided. Youve obviously picked your side in this argument, and are choosing to believe a QB has little effect on winning. Until the bitter end.

I don't own Cutler in any leagues, I'm not a Denver fan and I have no horse in this race. I've watched most of his games and I think he's a terrific talent (and I'm shocked that some people cannot see it with the quality of FF'ers on the board). The win loss thing is a smoke screen...I understand that the QB has an effect on winning but so does the defense, the coaching, special teams, personnel, schedule, etc. They are all pieces in the puzzle, would you not agree? I've posted this before for you but thought I'd post it again...The records of the teams as bad or worse than they were defensively were...

Raiders (5-11)

Rams (2-14)

Broncos (8-8)

Seattle (4-12)

KC (2-14)

Det (0-16)

which one of these does not belong?

Denver had the #2 ranked offense (#7 in passing TDs) in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

Also, this is a 2nd year QB and his career record is 17-20 and I think I saw yesterday someone posted Peyton's record at the same point was like 19-18 (with a better defense). So what does that mean? Nothing.

Peyton Manning went 13-3 his 2nd season with a garbage D. Why arent you offering up little nuggets like that, instead of disguising his overall record. He won in college. And he figured out pretty quick how to win in the pros. I cant honestly believe youre even comparing the guy to Peyton Manning.

Because it's pointless. Is a record after 2 seasons a predictor of the future? Of course not. Aikman was 1-15 in his 1st season and didn't have a winning record until after a couple seasons. Almost every single QB that's drafted comes from a top organization with winning records and the vast majority flame out and never become the franchise QB's that they are drafted to be. You really have to get off the win loss thing and look at talent because that's what matters and that's what keeps players in the NFL. Cutler's got the talent. Does he have Peyton talent? No but it's not far off.

 

[twitch]

Were those the only changes that went on in Atl and Miami? Did Atlanta get a new coaching staff, new stud RB? Did Miami bring in a new creative staff and revamp roster? Was Leinart a winner in college? How about Vince Young?

If Denver's defense doesn't let up 2 4th qtr TD's against Buff at the end of the year, the Bronco's go 9-7 and make the playoffs, does that somehow make Cutler a better QB? If Cutler gets hurt midway through the year when his team has a winning record does that somehow make him a better QB because he has a "winning" record now?

Wins and losses are important but they aren't created in a vaccumm and are a piece of a much larger puzzle...individual talent, surrounding personnel, coaching, special teams, defense, schedule, injuries, luck. The game is not QB A vs. QB B, it's not bowling or golf. I really can't believe that people seriously can't understand this concept. I tend to think it's picking a side in an argument and sticking with it to the bitter end.

Right. It was everything else, not the most important position on the field in each of those cases just last year that I provided. Youve obviously picked your side in this argument, and are choosing to believe a QB has little effect on winning. Until the bitter end.

I don't own Cutler in any leagues, I'm not a Denver fan and I have no horse in this race. I've watched most of his games and I think he's a terrific talent (and I'm shocked that some people cannot see it with the quality of FF'ers on the board). The win loss thing is a smoke screen...I understand that the QB has an effect on winning but so does the defense, the coaching, special teams, personnel, schedule, etc. They are all pieces in the puzzle, would you not agree? I've posted this before for you but thought I'd post it again...The records of the teams as bad or worse than they were defensively were...

Raiders (5-11)

Rams (2-14)

Broncos (8-8)

Seattle (4-12)

KC (2-14)

Det (0-16)

which one of these does not belong?

Denver had the #2 ranked offense (#7 in passing TDs) in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

Also, this is a 2nd year QB and his career record is 17-20 and I think I saw yesterday someone posted Peyton's record at the same point was like 19-18 (with a better defense). So what does that mean? Nothing.

Peyton Manning went 13-3 his 2nd season with a garbage D. Why arent you offering up little nuggets like that, instead of disguising his overall record. He won in college. And he figured out pretty quick how to win in the pros. I cant honestly believe youre even comparing the guy to Peyton Manning.

Because it's pointless. Is a record after 2 seasons a predictor of the future? Of course not. Aikman was 1-15 in his 1st season and didn't have a winning record until after a couple seasons. Almost every single QB that's drafted comes from a top organization with winning records and the vast majority flame out and never become the franchise QB's that they are drafted to be. You really have to get off the win loss thing and look at talent because that's what matters and that's what keeps players in the NFL. Cutler's got the talent. Does he have Peyton talent? No but it's not far off.

Aikman was 20-4 in college, I know, I know with some clearly stacked UCLA teams obviously. They must have been to propel him to wins like that. He also managed to win 2 bowl games, one of which was the Cotton Bowl, which 20 years ago was a big time game. He knew how to win. And had enough sense to transfer from Oklahoma to UCLA for that opportunity to reach his potential. He was also drafted 1 overall by a god awful team. Cutler was drafted by a team that finished 13-3 prior to his joining the team. That team didnt exactly suck in other words. But here we are again, comparing a HOFer to Jay Cutler, and Im just .

 

[Workhorse]

Cassel, because he's got the best GM who knows how to build a championship team.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Gimme a break. Collins was 12-4 leading Carolina to a title game. He was 12-4 with the Giants and a SB QB. Yes. The man knows how to win. He also led Penn State to an undefeated season his sr. season as I recall. Right, he's a winner in my book. Did he win every last game, or not lead some bad teams? Lets maintain some perspective.

In the five seasons before last year, Collins was 16-33.

 

[Domination]

I voted for Cassell.

I did purely on the fact that I Think he has the best front office, and they are already rebuilding. I think Cutler is in the best position right now, but I don't think even with him the Bears can win it all. Denver just took 2 steps back, and in my opinion is actually behind KC.

 

[Tackling Dummies]

Cassel, because he's got the best GM who knows how to build a championship team.

Pioli's track record is a given, but he's got to do it all over again. Both DEN and KC are in some stage of rebuilding (both with completely revamped front offices and coaches). CHI has both offensive and defensive upgrade needs and now do not have a 1 & a 3.One season bounces are feel good stories, but raising the Lombardi takes a lot of things to fall in place. It's an interesting poll and discussion.