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you want the gm that has completely botched the most important position on the team to stick around?

#1 I don't think he's botched it. We can't know that until we see how Orton does..
every move they have made re qb has been the wrong one. Draft a project qb in round one, force him onto the field without a preseason, play the yo-yo game with him being injured and not injured then go all in on the season only to waive the white flag after a month and sitting at 2-2?

Orton was an act of desperation by a management team without a plan. No matter the result this team is going nowhere under this leadership.

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last year is gone, this year will be, next year new regime with no first round pick - gone, so we are at 2016 at the earliest. Then you're looking at what Jacksonville is now. So, 2017, likely.

how is this year gone? they are 2-2.

You think there's 0% chance Orton will play well?

this goes a lot further than just Orton, it is the mismanagement of the qb position from their decision makers. Tells me they have no idea what they're doing. Give up next years one to get primary weapon for Manuel, all in for this year. Then don't address qb, stick with guys that are already here. Then watch those backups, who they have seen before, suck in camp and get cut. Leaving Manuel as the last man standing. But it's ok, here's their guy, and they're going to build around him. Then they bring in a vet off the street ten days before the season starts. One that caused a shouting match between Marrone and the front office. Four weeks later at 2-2 and the franchise qb is now gone for that guy that was on the street a month ago. All with an ownership change looming in the background.

If you have faith in the guys running that I think you're nuts.

What was never there can't be gone -- A famous Chinese proverb.

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you want the gm that has completely botched the most important position on the team to stick around?

#1 I don't think he's botched it. We can't know that until we see how Orton does..
every move they have made re qb has been the wrong one. Draft a project qb in round one, force him onto the field without a preseason, play the yo-yo game with him being injured and not injured then go all in on the season only to waive the white flag after a month and sitting at 2-2?

Orton was an act of desperation by a management team without a plan. No matter the result this team is going nowhere under this leadership.

at the time of the 2013 draft when Whaley and Marrone had taken over, what should they have done instead? Stick with Fitzpatrick?

They signed Kevin Kolb as a veteran option and he suffered a career-ending concussion. They drafted E.J. Manuel in a draft class widely considered one of the weakest in years.

It's easy to point out all the mistakes in hindsight.

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last year is gone, this year will be, next year new regime with no first round pick - gone, so we are at 2016 at the earliest. Then you're looking at what Jacksonville is now. So, 2017, likely.

how is this year gone? they are 2-2.

You think there's 0% chance Orton will play well?

this goes a lot further than just Orton, it is the mismanagement of the qb position from their decision makers. Tells me they have no idea what they're doing. Give up next years one to get primary weapon for Manuel, all in for this year. Then don't address qb, stick with guys that are already here. Then watch those backups, who they have seen before, suck in camp and get cut. Leaving Manuel as the last man standing. But it's ok, here's their guy, and they're going to build around him. Then they bring in a vet off the street ten days before the season starts. One that caused a shouting match between Marrone and the front office. Four weeks later at 2-2 and the franchise qb is now gone for that guy that was on the street a month ago. All with an ownership change looming in the background.

If you have faith in the guys running that I think you're nuts.

What was never there can't be gone -- A famous Chinese proverb.
i agree, but the bills saw something different.

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you want the gm that has completely botched the most important position on the team to stick around?

#1 I don't think he's botched it. We can't know that until we see how Orton does..
every move they have made re qb has been the wrong one. Draft a project qb in round one, force him onto the field without a preseason, play the yo-yo game with him being injured and not injured then go all in on the season only to waive the white flag after a month and sitting at 2-2?

Orton was an act of desperation by a management team without a plan. No matter the result this team is going nowhere under this leadership.

at the time of the 2013 draft when Whaley and Marrone had taken over, what should they have done instead? Stick with Fitzpatrick?

They signed Kevin Kolb as a veteran option and he suffered a career-ending concussion. They drafted E.J. Manuel in a draft class widely considered one of the weakest in years.

It's easy to point out all the mistakes in hindsight.

This isnt hindsight, I've been criticizing the pick since it was made. If you don't see a franchise qb then don't force one. That will you get fired.

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This isnt hindsight, I've been criticizing the pick since it was made. If you don't see a franchise qb then don't force one. That will you get fired.

that's fine.

but if they took somebody else who sucked that didn't play QB, I guess you'd have nothing to say? So what's the point then?

Congrats on predicting a QB would not work out for the Bills. You weren't alone in expecting that.

Personally, I disagree with your philosophy. I think you throw plenty of darts at the position and hope to find a long-term solution. Whether it's a 1st round pick or not, you aren't going to find a QB if you don't take some chances.

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He's horrible and he made me want to break things while he was at FSU. I am truly sorry for Bills fans.

Noles have won 15 straight since he left. :shrug:

Couple things:

- If Benjamin doesn't catch that last second TD then FSU was exactly one game better than with Manuel the year before.

- and if in 2012 Glennon doesn't throw a TD on 4th down with 16 seconds left then they have the same record.

Just noting the names...how much better would everyone feel with Glennon & Benjamin & first rnd pick next yr?

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This isnt hindsight, I've been criticizing the pick since it was made. If you don't see a franchise qb then don't force one. That will you get fired.

that's fine.

but if they took somebody else who sucked that didn't play QB, I guess you'd have nothing to say? So what's the point then?

Congrats on predicting a QB would not work out for the Bills. You weren't alone in expecting that.

Personally, I disagree with your philosophy. I think you throw plenty of darts at the position and hope to find a long-term solution. Whether it's a 1st round or not, you aren't going to find a QB if you don't take some chances.

the moment you pick a qb in round one your management clock starts, completely different than any other position. Has a management team ever survived a failed first round qb?

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He's horrible and he made me want to break things while he was at FSU. I am truly sorry for Bills fans.

Noles have won 15 straight since he left. :shrug:

Couple things:

- If Benjamin doesn't catch that last second TD then FSU was exactly one game better than with Manuel the year before.

- and if in 2012 Glennon doesn't throw a TD on 4th down with 16 seconds left then they have the same record.

Just noting the names...how much better would everyone feel with Glennon & Benjamin & first rnd pick next yr?
or Bridgewater, Davante Adams, and a one next year.

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For me its not about hindsight. They should've gone BPA in 2013 and picked two qbs later. They should've been doing that for 15 years. Increase your odds because nothing else matters until you find a guy.

Granted this means whiffing on a lot of Jimmy Clausen's. The opportunity cost that particular year, and in a lot of years is passing on Terrell Troupe and Alex Carrington so what difference does it make. Even the occasional 4th round jackpot like Kyle Williams doesn't get you anywhere without a QB so again, what's the difference. Hell I liked the Tent Edwards pick for this reason. Bridgewater this yr would've fit the bill too.

I know it's not ideal. Nothing ever is when you're lacking at that position. But it sure seems preferable than ignoring it for years and then throwing all your eggs into a JP/EJ type 3yr project.

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This isnt hindsight, I've been criticizing the pick since it was made. If you don't see a franchise qb then don't force one. That will you get fired.

that's fine.

but if they took somebody else who sucked that didn't play QB, I guess you'd have nothing to say? So what's the point then?

Congrats on predicting a QB would not work out for the Bills. You weren't alone in expecting that.

Personally, I disagree with your philosophy. I think you throw plenty of darts at the position and hope to find a long-term solution. Whether it's a 1st round pick or not, you aren't going to find a QB if you don't take some chances.

The problem with Buffalo is that they didn't throw a bunch of darts. Even this yr there were many quality QBs dropping, with better resumes than Manuel, and they didn't bite. From everything heard around here they were just trying to protect him all offseason & preseason. Paul Hamilton has alluded to this frequently. I don't think fans would have as much of a problem with this change if a competent backup had been here through camp. However, when everyone's trying to sell the fan base on Manuel & within 4 wks hands over to a guy only here 4 wks it reeks of desperation.

The reason mgmt. needs to get blasted is that they haven't addressed the QB position. Old man Buddy Nix painted them into a corner declaring mid-season 2012 they'd be drafting a QB, then they were forced to reach. Drafting has been solid in other areas but doubling down on EJ with the Watkins trade brings up more red flags. Orton could lead this team to playoffs but he's not SB material. Now you need to find another Brees through free agency or hope to hit the jackpot with someone like Wilson because by time you develop another QB your D starts wearing down.

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You guys act like Manuel has played horrible all year.

Yeah, he threw a pick that was returned 80 yards for a TD but without that they win the game.

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The problem with Buffalo is that they didn't throw a bunch of darts.

I agree. I have less of an issue with taking EJ the way they did than with thinking once they had him, they could afford or needed to ignore the position. I hate the idea of coddling QBs like they can't deal with any competition. If they are mentally tough and good enough to lead the team, they will handle it.

Either way, this team isn't going to bottom out like Jacksonville because they took EJ and traded next year's 1st. That's a ridiculous comparison.

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You guys act like Manuel has played horrible all year.

Yeah, he threw a pick that was returned 80 yards for a TD but without that they win the game.

True. Pretend he didn't play horribly and he'd be 3-1. With a defense that's yet to yield 20+ pts. Despite two games vs teams whose mediocre D's are carried by their elite offenses. Nothing Blaine Gabbert couldn't have done. Impressive. Edited by Bills_Fan11

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You guys act like Manuel has played horrible all year.

Yeah, he threw a pick that was returned 80 yards for a TD but without that they win the game.

Just to be clear...you're saying they would have won if Manual hadn't cost them the game, right?

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You guys act like Manuel has played horrible all year.Yeah, he threw a pick that was returned 80 yards for a TD but without that they win the game.

he has

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Can we stop saying they were "forced" to reach for a QB in a weak QB draft? They put themselves in that position to begin with by giving Fitzpatrick a dumb contract and skipping over the likes of Wilson, Foles, and Cousins, but by no means were they "forced" to take anyone, let alone EJ Manuel, in the 1st.

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Can we stop saying they were "forced" to reach for a QB in a weak QB draft? They put themselves in that position to begin with by giving Fitzpatrick a dumb contract and skipping over the likes of Wilson, Foles, and Cousins, but by no means were they "forced" to take anyone, let alone EJ Manuel, in the 1st.

Buddy Nix had control of personnel in 2012 and gave that contract to Fitz. 2013 was when Whaley/Marrone took over.

They could have stuck with Fitz at that point, but that wouldn't have gone over any better. They took a shot with Kolb/Manuel, but they didn't have a ton of great options to choose from.

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Can we stop saying they were "forced" to reach for a QB in a weak QB draft? They put themselves in that position to begin with by giving Fitzpatrick a dumb contract and skipping over the likes of Wilson, Foles, and Cousins, but by no means were they "forced" to take anyone, let alone EJ Manuel, in the 1st.

Buddy Nix had control of personnel in 2012 and gave that contract to Fitz. 2013 was when Whaley/Marrone took over.

They could have stuck with Fitz at that point, but that wouldn't have gone over any better. They took a shot with Kolb/Manuel, but they didn't have a ton of great options to choose from.

Whaley was the assistant GM for both the Fitz contract and the EJ pick, but that doesn't even matter- regardless of the QB situation at the time or who is to blame for it, they weren't forced to reach for a QB with their 1st round pick.

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You guys act like Manuel has played horrible all year.

Yeah, he threw a pick that was returned 80 yards for a TD but without that they win the game.

Just to be clear...you're saying they would have won if Manual hadn't cost them the game, right?

Right.

I know we live in a reactionary world but he's just a 2nd year QB who everyone knew was raw coming out of college. His first 3 games in his second year were better than Drew Brees and not much different than Luck's.

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Manuel has a lot of strides he needs to make to ever be a starting NFL qb. It was clear he has a lot of issues. As a young QB the one thing you look for to predict future success especially in year 2 is a guy who is able to read a defense and he just can't get off his first read.

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Orton could lead this team to playoffs but he's not SB material.

SB material? You mean like Trent Dilfer?

You're not comparing Bills D to Ravens are you?

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You guys act like Manuel has played horrible all year.

Yeah, he threw a pick that was returned 80 yards for a TD but without that they win the game.

Just to be clear...you're saying they would have won if Manual hadn't cost them the game, right?

Right.

I know we live in a reactionary world but he's just a 2nd year QB who everyone knew was raw coming out of college. His first 3 games in his second year were better than Drew Brees and not much different than Luck's.

except that Bree's & Luck were exceptional passing talents coming out of college while EJ was always labeled a project.

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You guys act like Manuel has played horrible all year.

Yeah, he threw a pick that was returned 80 yards for a TD but without that they win the game.

Just to be clear...you're saying they would have won if Manual hadn't cost them the game, right?

Right.

I know we live in a reactionary world but he's just a 2nd year QB who everyone knew was raw coming out of college. His first 3 games in his second year were better than Drew Brees and not much different than Luck's.

except that Bree's & Luck were exceptional passing talents coming out of college while EJ was always labeled a project.

Not sure I follow this. Why does being a project mean that Manuel should have developed quicker than "exceptional passing talents"?

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You guys act like Manuel has played horrible all year.

Yeah, he threw a pick that was returned 80 yards for a TD but without that they win the game.

Just to be clear...you're saying they would have won if Manual hadn't cost them the game, right?

Right.

I know we live in a reactionary world but he's just a 2nd year QB who everyone knew was raw coming out of college. His first 3 games in his second year were better than Drew Brees and not much different than Luck's.

except that Bree's & Luck were exceptional passing talents coming out of college while EJ was always labeled a project.

Not sure I follow this. Why does being a project mean that Manuel should have developed quicker than "exceptional passing talents"?

I think he means Manuel has never shown the ability at any level to be good so it was a matter of IF he would get as opposed to the other guys it was a matter of when they would get it.

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In this thread we randomly compare Andrew Lucks first three games of his 2nd year. Never mind that he took a garbage team to the playoffs his rookie year. You obviously didn't watch EJ throw up all over himself in Pittsburgh or Tampa last year. Just stop with the reactionary narrative.

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You guys act like Manuel has played horrible all year.

Yeah, he threw a pick that was returned 80 yards for a TD but without that they win the game.

Just to be clear...you're saying they would have won if Manual hadn't cost them the game, right?

Right.

I know we live in a reactionary world but he's just a 2nd year QB who everyone knew was raw coming out of college. His first 3 games in his second year were better than Drew Brees and not much different than Luck's.

Stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

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In this thread we randomly compare Andrew Lucks first three games of his 2nd year. Never mind that he took a garbage team to the playoffs his rookie year. You obviously didn't watch EJ throw up all over himself in Pittsburgh or Tampa last year. Just stop with the reactionary narrative.

Pretty much this.

I actually have to give the Bills credit for making the move this early and admitting that Manuel was a mistake. At least being proactive and trying to make a positive out of a negative.

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You guys act like Manuel has played horrible all year.

Yeah, he threw a pick that was returned 80 yards for a TD but without that they win the game.

Just to be clear...you're saying they would have won if Manual hadn't cost them the game, right?

Right.

I know we live in a reactionary world but he's just a 2nd year QB who everyone knew was raw coming out of college. His first 3 games in his second year were better than Drew Brees and not much different than Luck's.

except that Bree's & Luck were exceptional passing talents coming out of college while EJ was always labeled a project.[/quote

Not sure I follow this. Why does being a project mean that Manuel should have developed quicker than "exceptional passing talents"?

Response to the quote previously. Brees & Luck showed far more passing thru their career than EJ. Regardless of stats do you honestly see anything in EJ that makes him look like he could be anything near those 2?

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Manuel has a lot of strides he needs to make to ever be a starting NFL qb. It was clear he has a lot of issues. As a young QB the one thing you look for to predict future success especially in year 2 is a guy who is able to read a defense and he just can't get off his first read.

Manuel reminds me a lot of McNabb with his inaccuracy and not reading defenses well. He'll probably never be one of the league's best but he could still be a good starter.

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Response to the quote previously. Brees & Luck showed far more passing thru their career than EJ. Regardless of stats do you honestly see anything in EJ that makes him look like he could be anything near those 2?

No one expected Brees to do what he's done after his first couple of years in the league. I think it's foolish to think that Manuel is finished developing as a QB only 4 games into his second year. Like I've said - he hasn't been horrible (16 TD/12 INT) in his career. If he was a statue I wouldn't be so high on his chances but if he develops just a little bit as a passer he can be a good QB with his ability to run.

Edited by cstu

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EJ Manuel isn't an NFL-caliber QB....They made a huge mistake 2 yrs ago. At least they're finally owning up to it.

huge mistake?

they traded down and still got Kiko Alonso in the deal. The Rams traded up for Tavon Austin.

I'd still rather have the Bills side of the trade.

Agreed. Trying to find a franchise QB when you don't have one is never a mistake, even if it doesn't work out ex post.

Manuel wasn't ever a franchise qb, he was an over drafted project. If they didn't like any of the qb's then do what the jags did last year and build depth, look for the franchise qb later.

Drafting Manuel was a crippling mistake, it cost all of these guys their job (eventually). When all is said and done they will have wasted three, maybe four, years because of that pick. That's near the top of the list.

None of this makes any sense. Drafting Manuel only sets you back 3-4 years if you stubbornly stick with the guy even when he doesn't pan out. The Bills demonstrably aren't doing that.

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You guys act like Manuel has played horrible all year.

Yeah, he threw a pick that was returned 80 yards for a TD but without that they win the game.

Just to be clear...you're saying they would have won if Manual hadn't cost them the game, right?

Right.

I know we live in a reactionary world but he's just a 2nd year QB who everyone knew was raw coming out of college. His first 3 games in his second year were better than Drew Brees and not much different than Luck's.

except that Bree's & Luck were exceptional passing talents coming out of college while EJ was always labeled a project.

Not sure I follow this. Why does being a project mean that Manuel should have developed quicker than "exceptional passing talents"?

I think he means Manuel has never shown the ability at any level to be good so it was a matter of IF he would get as opposed to the other guys it was a matter of when they would get it.

I don't think the Chargers would have drafted Rivers if they knew it was just a matter of "when" with Brees.

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Response to the quote previously. Brees & Luck showed far more passing thru their career than EJ. Regardless of stats do you honestly see anything in EJ that makes him look like he could be anything near those 2?

No one expected Brees to do what he's done after his first couple of years in the league. I think it's foolish to think that Manuel is finished developing as a QB only 4 games into his second year. Like I've said - he hasn't been horrible (16 TD/12 INT) in his career. If he was a statue I wouldn't be so high on his chances but if he develops just a little bit as a passer he can be a good QB with his ability to run.

EJ is worse than his stats let on. He's simply not able to hit receivers in stride. Go back and watch the Bears game in week one and see how many highlight-type catches he forced to his receivers to make because the ball was too high or behind them.

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EJ Manuel isn't an NFL-caliber QB....They made a huge mistake 2 yrs ago. At least they're finally owning up to it.

huge mistake?

they traded down and still got Kiko Alonso in the deal. The Rams traded up for Tavon Austin.

I'd still rather have the Bills side of the trade.

Agreed. Trying to find a franchise QB when you don't have one is never a mistake, even if it doesn't work out ex post.

Manuel wasn't ever a franchise qb, he was an over drafted project. If they didn't like any of the qb's then do what the jags did last year and build depth, look for the franchise qb later.

Drafting Manuel was a crippling mistake, it cost all of these guys their job (eventually). When all is said and done they will have wasted three, maybe four, years because of that pick. That's near the top of the list.

None of this makes any sense. Drafting Manuel only sets you back 3-4 years if you stubbornly stick with the guy even when he doesn't pan out. The Bills demonstrably aren't doing that.

Who is going to be their QB next year?

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Response to the quote previously. Brees & Luck showed far more passing thru their career than EJ. Regardless of stats do you honestly see anything in EJ that makes him look like he could be anything near those 2?

No one expected Brees to do what he's done after his first couple of years in the league. I think it's foolish to think that Manuel is finished developing as a QB only 4 games into his second year. Like I've said - he hasn't been horrible (16 TD/12 INT) in his career. If he was a statue I wouldn't be so high on his chances but if he develops just a little bit as a passer he can be a good QB with his ability to run.

I disagree that Manuel has to develop just a little bit as a passer in order to be a good QB- he's one of the worst passing QBs in the league right now. The maddening part is that his flaws were so obvious to so many people, which is why many had him as a mid-round pick.

This is a classic case of looking beyond the numbers- he absolutely has been horrible so far overall. He still has a slight chance to turn it around, but I wouldn't hold my breath- he hasn't been able to correct his flaws over the last several years, so it doesn't seem likely that he's going to be able to do so in the near future (especially when some of them are pretty difficult to correct).

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This isnt hindsight, I've been criticizing the pick since it was made. If you don't see a franchise qb then don't force one. That will you get fired.

that's fine.

but if they took somebody else who sucked that didn't play QB, I guess you'd have nothing to say? So what's the point then?

Congrats on predicting a QB would not work out for the Bills. You weren't alone in expecting that.

Personally, I disagree with your philosophy. I think you throw plenty of darts at the position and hope to find a long-term solution. Whether it's a 1st round pick or not, you aren't going to find a QB if you don't take some chances.

I remember a couple short years ago. We needed a QB, and while other teams passed on him as well, Russell Wilson was sitting there for us to take. Why not take him then? If its about taking chances, we should have taken one with him despite his supposed size limitations. And it being the 3rd round, it would have been a much smaller risk than taking one in the 1st like Manuel.

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This isnt hindsight, I've been criticizing the pick since it was made. If you don't see a franchise qb then don't force one. That will you get fired.

that's fine.

but if they took somebody else who sucked that didn't play QB, I guess you'd have nothing to say? So what's the point then?

Congrats on predicting a QB would not work out for the Bills. You weren't alone in expecting that.

Personally, I disagree with your philosophy. I think you throw plenty of darts at the position and hope to find a long-term solution. Whether it's a 1st round pick or not, you aren't going to find a QB if you don't take some chances.

I remember a couple short years ago. We needed a QB, and while other teams passed on him as well, Russell Wilson was sitting there for us to take. Why not take him then? If its about taking chances, we should have taken one with him despite his supposed size limitations. And it being the 3rd round, it would have been a much smaller risk than taking one in the 1st like Manuel.

That goes back to their mistake of believing Fitzpatrick was their QB of the future and giving him a big contract- it their minds, they didn't think they needed a QB, so they probably didn't even bother seriously considering Wilson, Foles, Cousins, etc.

Their mistakes at the QB position go back a long ways.....

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I don't understand blaming Whaley. Manuel was Nix's pick before he left.

And I'll disagree on Manuel not being able to read a defense or being able to go through a progression. He has shown a lot of improvement there. He's finding the open receiver, he just can't throw the ball to them.

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... being able to read a defense or being able to go through a progression. He has shown a lot of improvement there. He's finding the open receiver, he just can't throw the ball to them.

Minor details...

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... being able to read a defense or being able to go through a progression. He has shown a lot of improvement there. He's finding the open receiver, he just can't throw the ball to them.

Minor details...

haha

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So is he droppable in shorter benched dynasty leagues? He has to be done, right? Even if he comes in again this year, the Bills will select a new QB next year I'd imagine.

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Manuel has a lot of strides he needs to make to ever be a starting NFL qb. It was clear he has a lot of issues. As a young QB the one thing you look for to predict future success especially in year 2 is a guy who is able to read a defense and he just can't get off his first read.

This actually isn't true. Manuel has made big strides in reading through his progressions this season. His inaccuracy has been the biggest problem by far.

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I don't understand blaming Whaley. Manuel was Nix's pick before he left.

And I'll disagree on Manuel not being able to read a defense or being able to go through a progression. He has shown a lot of improvement there. He's finding the open receiver, he just can't throw the ball to them.

It was an open secret that Whaley was going to take over from Nix immediately after the draft. The Manuel selection was just as much Whaley's as it was Nix's - if not entirely on Whaley.

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So is he droppable in shorter benched dynasty leagues? He has to be done, right? Even if he comes in again this year, the Bills will select a new QB next year I'd imagine.

Manuel should have never been rostered in shorter benched dynasty leagues.

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