"there will be costs"Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
We have no credibility in this regard. None.The Ukrainian people deserve the opportunity to determine their own future.
Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
It's that manner of thinking that let Japan kill 10 million or so Chinese.Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
Not viewing war as a test of manhood let the Japanese kill 10 million Chinese? The insecurity that people reveal when talking about the decision to go to war is sickening.It's that manner of thinking that let Japan kill 10 million or so Chinese.Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
The Holodomor was less than 100 years ago. How quickly people forget atrocities without a good lobby.
I will agree that Scoresman did not phrase it the correct way, nor do I know if Russia/Ukraine relations pose a sufficient casus belli, but at some point military action is the correct decision. We should have done more in Rwanda. We should still be doing more.Not viewing war as a test of manhood let the Japanese kill 10 million Chinese? The insecurity that people reveal when talking about the decision to go to war is sickening.It's that manner of thinking that let Japan kill 10 million or so Chinese.Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
The Holodomor was less than 100 years ago. How quickly people forget atrocities without a good lobby.
Or, in other words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CghWWWXSUUU
Agreed, but I think we recently have let some point come much too easy. That said, your NATO suggestion is intriguing.I will agree that Scoresman did not phrase it the correct way, nor do I know if Russia/Ukraine relations pose a sufficient casus belli, but at some point military action is the correct decision. We should have done more in Rwanda. We should still be doing more.Not viewing war as a test of manhood let the Japanese kill 10 million Chinese? The insecurity that people reveal when talking about the decision to go to war is sickening.It's that manner of thinking that let Japan kill 10 million or so Chinese.Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
The Holodomor was less than 100 years ago. How quickly people forget atrocities without a good lobby.
Or, in other words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CghWWWXSUUU
In realpolitik, what happens to Ukraine shouldn't impact us in much sense and if Russia is going to be there, our only real concern should be the violence is minimized. I'd love to see some horse trading though and give Russia basically a free hand in Crimea for a withdrawal of support to Syria. Getting Syria back to a fairly normal state is worth a lot more to us than if Russia takes back part/all of Ukraine.Agreed, but I think we recently have let some point come much too easy. That said, your NATO suggestion is intriguing.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490Appears it could impact us based on a prior agreement already in place.Gawain said:In realpolitik, what happens to Ukraine shouldn't impact us in much sense and if Russia is going to be there, our only real concern should be the violence is minimized. I'd love to see some horse trading though and give Russia basically a free hand in Crimea for a withdrawal of support to Syria. Getting Syria back to a fairly normal state is worth a lot more to us than if Russia takes back part/all of Ukraine.Slapdash said:Agreed, but I think we recently have let some point come much too easy. That said, your NATO suggestion is intriguing.
One of the economists I read suggested something like this, including Iran with Syria:Gawain said:In realpolitik, what happens to Ukraine shouldn't impact us in much sense and if Russia is going to be there, our only real concern should be the violence is minimized. I'd love to see some horse trading though and give Russia basically a free hand in Crimea for a withdrawal of support to Syria. Getting Syria back to a fairly normal state is worth a lot more to us than if Russia takes back part/all of Ukraine.Slapdash said:Agreed, but I think we recently have let some point come much too easy. That said, your NATO suggestion is intriguing.
For Russia, matters in Ukraine are close to an existential crisis, as Ukraine is intimately tied up with Russia’s sense of itself as presiding over a mini-empire of sorts. Nor could an autocratic Russia tolerate a free and prosperous Ukraine, developing along the lines of Poland. America cares about Ukraine less, and cares more about Syria and Iran, or at least cares about saving face in those latter venues. Therefore there is a Coasean deal to be had between America and Russia, where Russia gets to partition part of Ukraine, create a buffer against Europeanization and democratization, keep the larger Ukraine unit weak, and also keep its Black Sea fleet. In turn Russia would do something less than totally sabotage all American plans for Syria and Iran. (Of course that is Coasean for the leaders, and not necessarily for the citizenries.)
The thing is…China. What kind of signal would such a Coasean deal of partition send to China?
That is what I worry about.
It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.Bucky86 said:Slapdash said:Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Scoresman said:Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
While Kennedy was president the Russians occupied Ukraine. Thanks a lot JFK.Scoresman said:Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
The "Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances" is a diplomatic memorandum that was signed in December 1994 by Ukraine, Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom.
It is not a formal treaty, but rather, a diplomatic document under which signatories made promises to each other as part of the denuclearization of former Soviet republics after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
Under the memorandum, Ukraine promised to remove all Soviet-era nuclear weapons from its territory, send them to disarmament facilities in Russia, and sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Ukraine kept these promises.
In return, Russia and the Western signatory countries essentially consecrated the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine as an independent state. They did so by applying the principles of territorial integrity and nonintervention in 1975 Helsinki Final Act -- a Cold War-era treaty signed by 35 states including the Soviet Union -- to an independent post-Soviet Ukraine.
If the US offered Ukraine membership to NATO tomorrow, that would start WWIII.Gawain said:If Obama and Western Europe really wanted to head this off, they'd offer Ukraine NATO membership tomorrow. The last president turned it down, but the current one wouldn't.
It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.
No, but Ukraine was in the Membership Action Plan until drawn out by the former (current?) regime. The Membership Action Plan was the process for full NATO membership. I misspoke, the last president changed Ukraine's course towards NATO membership (in essence, if not if fact turning it down).If the US offered Ukraine membership to NATO tomorrow, that would start WWIII.Gawain said:If Obama and Western Europe really wanted to head this off, they'd offer Ukraine NATO membership tomorrow. The last president turned it down, but the current one wouldn't.
The last president of Ukraine was not offered NATO membership.
It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.Bucky86 said:Slapdash said:Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Scoresman said:Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
Oh yeah. This guy gets it.Let's send in Seal Team 6 and start blowing up these ruskies. It works in my video games.
As far as Obama is concerned, the real enemy are the Republicans and he can't be bothered with any atrocities of threats to freedom anywhere else. He's waiting so he can unleash his full fury on the real enemy.It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.Bucky86 said:Slapdash said:Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Scoresman said:Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
Uhmmm....Syria? Libya? Iran? Hello? Does that sound familiar? The problem with Obama is that he has a track record of making promises he won't keep. Putin knows this. Everyone is justified in raking him over the coals for making empty threats again. It makes us look weak.
It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.Bucky86 said:Slapdash said:Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Scoresman said:Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
Uhmmm....Syria? Libya? Iran? Hello? Does that sound familiar? The problem with Obama is that he has a track record of making promises he won't keep. Putin knows this. Everyone is justified in raking him over the coals for making empty threats again. It makes us look weak.
black dotBucky86 said:Anyone on twitter we should be following to find out whats really happening on the ground over in the Ukraine?
YOU GET A WAR!It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.Bucky86 said:Slapdash said:Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Scoresman said:Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
Uhmmm....Syria? Libya? Iran? Hello? Does that sound familiar? The problem with Obama is that he has a track record of making promises he won't keep. Putin knows this. Everyone is justified in raking him over the coals for making empty threats again. It makes us look weak.
China doesn't like the russiansWhen does china team up with the russkies?
:whoosh:YOU GET A WAR!It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.Bucky86 said:Slapdash said:Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Scoresman said:Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
Uhmmm....Syria? Libya? Iran? Hello? Does that sound familiar? The problem with Obama is that he has a track record of making promises he won't keep. Putin knows this. Everyone is justified in raking him over the coals for making empty threats again. It makes us look weak.
YOU GET A WAR!
EVERYBODY GETS A WAR!!!!!
they like our money much, much moreDoes they dislike us more?China doesn't like the russiansWhen does china team up with the russkies?
It looks to me like Obama followed through on both Libya and Iran (even though the Republicans are currently trying to #### that one up). You're so busy calling him a pu##y, you can't even see that sometimes he actually makes some good calls.:whoosh:YOU GET A WAR!It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.Bucky86 said:Slapdash said:Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Scoresman said:Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
Uhmmm....Syria? Libya? Iran? Hello? Does that sound familiar? The problem with Obama is that he has a track record of making promises he won't keep. Putin knows this. Everyone is justified in raking him over the coals for making empty threats again. It makes us look weak.
YOU GET A WAR!
EVERYBODY GETS A WAR!!!!!
I think you're missing the point in your partisan zeal.
It looks to me like Obama followed through on both Libya and Iran (even though the Republicans are currently trying to #### that one up). You're so busy calling him a pu##y, you can't even see that sometimes he actually makes some good calls.:whoosh:YOU GET A WAR!It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.Bucky86 said:Slapdash said:Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Scoresman said:Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
Uhmmm....Syria? Libya? Iran? Hello? Does that sound familiar? The problem with Obama is that he has a track record of making promises he won't keep. Putin knows this. Everyone is justified in raking him over the coals for making empty threats again. It makes us look weak.
YOU GET A WAR!
EVERYBODY GETS A WAR!!!!!
I think you're missing the point in your partisan zeal.
Interested in your take on what he should be doing with the current situation, btw. Start measuring #####?
Is Qua-daffy still in power? Isn't there an international deal to keep Iran from making nukes?It looks to me like Obama followed through on both Libya and Iran (even though the Republicans are currently trying to #### that one up). You're so busy calling him a pu##y, you can't even see that sometimes he actually makes some good calls.:whoosh:YOU GET A WAR!It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.Bucky86 said:Slapdash said:Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Scoresman said:Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
Uhmmm....Syria? Libya? Iran? Hello? Does that sound familiar? The problem with Obama is that he has a track record of making promises he won't keep. Putin knows this. Everyone is justified in raking him over the coals for making empty threats again. It makes us look weak.
YOU GET A WAR!
EVERYBODY GETS A WAR!!!!!
I think you're missing the point in your partisan zeal.
Interested in your take on what he should be doing with the current situation, btw. Start measuring #####?
What a bunch of horse-####. He shouldn't be making empty threats, or any threats at all for that matter.
The article you posted in the other thread was critical of Obama for not making enough threats.It looks to me like Obama followed through on both Libya and Iran (even though the Republicans are currently trying to #### that one up). You're so busy calling him a pu##y, you can't even see that sometimes he actually makes some good calls.:whoosh:YOU GET A WAR!It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.Bucky86 said:Slapdash said:Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.Scoresman said:Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
Uhmmm....Syria? Libya? Iran? Hello? Does that sound familiar? The problem with Obama is that he has a track record of making promises he won't keep. Putin knows this. Everyone is justified in raking him over the coals for making empty threats again. It makes us look weak.
YOU GET A WAR!
EVERYBODY GETS A WAR!!!!!
I think you're missing the point in your partisan zeal.
Interested in your take on what he should be doing with the current situation, btw. Start measuring #####?
What a bunch of horse-####. He shouldn't be making empty threats, or any threats at all for that matter.
Russia is the worlds largest natural gas exporter and largest producer of oil. Which countries do you think they export to and which one of those is willing to give up that energy?You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.
But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.
We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.
He's not a rich man.Well there you go we should boycott Tevye
Of course it would hurt. But it would hurt Russia a whole lot more. That's where a true world leader can convince other countries to bite the bullet and accept some short term financial pain to do the right thing.Russia is the worlds largest natural gas exporter and largest producer of oil. Which countries do you think they export to and which one of those is willing to give up that energy?You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.
But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.
We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.
ETA: Fixed for accuracy
Of course it would hurt. But it would hurt Russia a whole lot more. That's where a true world leader can convince other countries to bite the bullet and accept some short term financial pain to do the right thing.Russia is the worlds largest natural gas exporter and largest producer of oil. Which countries do you think they export to and which one of those is willing to give up that energy?You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.
But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.
We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.
ETA: Fixed for accuracy