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Another killing at the hands of the Police

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2 minutes ago, Kal El said:

The police shouldn't be executioners, that's why we have the legal system, warts and all.

That's some heavy hyperbole there.  Suddenly we have Judge Dredd's out on the street huh?  C'mon now.  

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1 minute ago, ridicule said:

That's some heavy hyperbole there.  Suddenly we have Judge Dredd's out on the street huh?  C'mon now.  

Go ahead and ask George Floyd that question, see what he says. 

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16 minutes ago, Kal El said:

Go ahead and ask George Floyd that question, see what he says. 

Asking you.  Is it your contention that local police force, people that generally live in or near your communities, are out there acting like Sly Stallone in a bad movie? 

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6 minutes ago, ridicule said:

Asking you.  Is it your contention that local police force, people that generally live in or near your communities, are out there acting like Sly Stallone in a bad movie? 

I'm saying that they shouldn't make that decision without exhausting every other option first. We've seen countless interactions where the police escalate a situation for no good reason, and nothing is changing.

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1 minute ago, Kal El said:

I'm saying that they shouldn't make that decision without exhausting every other option first. We've seen countless interactions where the police escalate a situation for no good reason, and nothing is changing.

No, this is what you said...

36 minutes ago, Kal El said:

The police shouldn't be executioners, that's why we have the legal system, warts and all.

Those two quotes do not imply the same thing.  So again, that's some heavy hyperbole there.  Sorry to think the rhetoric is at the very least poor phrasing.    

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14 minutes ago, ridicule said:

No, this is what you said...

Those two quotes do not imply the same thing.  So again, that's some heavy hyperbole there.  Sorry to think the rhetoric is at the very least poor phrasing.    

The police shouldn't kill people, or at the very least, not so quickly. There were lots of ways to defuse the situation without killing this man, yet they bypassed all of that anyway. By escalating situations like these to deadly force, they're essentially taking the law into their own hands.

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1 hour ago, Kal El said:

The police shouldn't kill people, or at the very least, not so quickly. There were lots of ways to defuse the situation without killing this man, yet they bypassed all of that anyway. By escalating situations like these to deadly force, they're essentially taking the law into their own hands.

Maybe everyone with the answers for how police should act should join the force.  Then they could handle these situations instead of telling the police how it should have went.

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3 hours ago, Kal El said:

Still not a valid reason to kill him. It's a melee weapon, the poluce have several ranged ones that don't have to kill. There's still a disconnect here.

Sounds like you have it all figured out

 maybe you should sign up for the police force?

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5 minutes ago, bcat01 said:

Maybe everyone with the answers for how police should act should join the force.  Then they could handle these situations instead of telling the police how it should have went.

Or maybe the police need retraining on how to interact with communities they allegedly serve and protect, because what they have isn't working.

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1 minute ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

Sounds like you have it all figured out

 maybe you should sign up for the police force?

I'd rather deal with electricity, thanks.

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1 hour ago, Kal El said:

The police shouldn't kill people, or at the very least, not so quickly. There were lots of ways to defuse the situation without killing this man, yet they bypassed all of that anyway. By escalating situations like these to deadly force, they're essentially taking the law into their own hands.

disagree.  man comes towards you with a weapon.  so you back up & try to talk him down?  respect your opinion but you are asking a lot.

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5 minutes ago, Kal El said:

I'd rather deal with electricity, thanks.

if your talking tasers they don't work on all people.  that what you are referring to?

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1 hour ago, Kal El said:

The police shouldn't kill people, or at the very least, not so quickly. There were lots of ways to defuse the situation without killing this man, yet they bypassed all of that anyway. By escalating situations like these to deadly force, they're essentially taking the law into their own hands.

maybe do some kung foo stuff & disarm him going hand to hand?

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6 minutes ago, shadrap said:

if your talking tasers they don't work on all people.  that what you are referring to?

Wires, lights, receptacles. I'm an electrician.

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Still do not know why tranquilizer darts are not used more in these situations.  Pop a dart into the perp and run 20 yards away, in 30 seconds they will be docile.  Make the arrest and move on with everyone still alive.

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41 minutes ago, Kal El said:

Wires, lights, receptacles. I'm an electrician.

union?

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11 minutes ago, shadrap said:

union?

No, but there's an IBEW office in West Palm. 

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1 hour ago, Kal El said:

Or maybe the police need retraining on how to interact with communities they allegedly serve and protect, because what they have isn't working.

Maybe the community needs to do better

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17 minutes ago, bcat01 said:

Maybe the community needs to do better

It is a two way street, however, one group often enters a given situation with superior weaponry and ostensibly the authority of the law behind them, and many officers(not all, but many of them) are ill equipped to handle conflicts without resorting to violence.

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2 minutes ago, Kal El said:

It is a two way street, however, one group often enters a given situation with superior weaponry and ostensibly the authority of the law behind them, and many officers(not all, but many of them) are ill equipped to handle conflicts without resorting to violence.

And also a duty to protect and serve.

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3 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

And also a duty to protect and serve.

I agree, but I have questions about reconciling that duty with officers looking like soldiers even without an actual threat present.

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34 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

And also a duty to protect and serve.

Sure

And also a duty to their wife and kids to make it home from their shift 

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12 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

Sure

And also a duty to their wife and kids to make it home from their shift 

I agree with that too.  The point was its not all on the public or all in the cops.  We can all do better.  

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9 hours ago, GROOT said:

..you just lost Pennslyvania

Pennsylvanians are not looking for four more years of shooting and looting.This is happening on Trump's watch, not Biden's.

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15 minutes ago, Mystery Achiever said:

Pennsylvanians are not looking for four more years of shooting and looting.This is happening on Trump's watch, not Biden's.

happening in almost all Dem led cities.  fixing a city starts with the mayor, then governor, then federal.  pretty sure you know that though.

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That would still not reflect on Biden, though, and I don't hold Kenney harmless.
 Social justice reform and a less toxic climate engendering a sense of hopelessness is what I had in mind. Don't want to further derail the topic,though.

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A couple of new details of the case:
- Family called for ambulance, not police intervention
- Wife told police Wallace was bipolar
- Neither officer was issued a taser

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I'm continually amazed at this this idea that if Republicans were running major cities that there would be less policing problems and racial harmony.

Edited by Juxtatarot

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3 hours ago, Mystery Achiever said:

Pennsylvanians are not looking for four more years of shooting and looting.This is happening on Trump's watch, not Biden's.

Actually here in Philly, the blame is being placed on Mayor Jim Kenney, DA Larry Krasner and Commissioner Outlaw and to a lesser extent Gov. Tom Wolf.  Trump offered to send in the National Guard when the shooting happened.    

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1 hour ago, Juxtatarot said:

I'm continually amazed at this this idea that if Republicans were running major cities that there would be less policing problems and racial harmony.

I'm not insinuating either.  I am saying that many of the Dem led cities allowed rioting, burning, looting by either not calling the national guard or having the police "stand down".

Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis for starters.  

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1 hour ago, Juxtatarot said:

I'm continually amazed at this this idea that if Republicans were running major cities that there would be less policing problems and racial harmony.

I don't think they think that far.

One of the laments that I hear from some people on The Right is how things were better back in "the day".....without them often acknowledging that back in "the day".....police would just straight crack skulls and beat the crap out of you.....and there wasn't much recourse; particularly for people of color.

I always thought that an authoritarian police state was something that Conservatives railed against.  More and more....I think they're comfortable with the narrative "as long as it doesn't happen to me".  

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1 hour ago, Snotbubbles said:

Actually here in Philly, the blame is being placed on Mayor Jim Kenney, DA Larry Krasner and Commissioner Outlaw and to a lesser extent Gov. Tom Wolf.  Trump offered to send in the National Guard when the shooting happened.    

I mentioned Kenney; should have included Outlaw.  Wolf has  mobilized the PA National Guard. It seems like there was a problem with the response team. 
As mentioned, the family called for an ambulance, not police intervention. Also, this from the article I posted yesterday: 
"Philly We Rise and other groups have called for reducing police spending to free up dollars that could go toward non-police responses. Unfortunately, city leaders have not developed similar plans and continue to rely on officer training programs and some co-response. Commissioner Danielle Outlaw has noted that this approach is not working as planned and in a recent event at the University of Texas Law School told me that she would ideally like to see non-police response capacity increased, though she remains concerned about potentially violent encounters and, not surprisingly, opposes any reduction in police spending."

Edited by Mystery Achiever

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13 hours ago, shadrap said:

happening in almost all Dem led cities.  fixing a city starts with the mayor, then governor, then federal.  pretty sure you know that though.

So whether Biden or Trump is elected, it will have minimal effect on this.  Wonder why the Republicans are running on law and order when they really can't do much to control this.

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10 hours ago, Chaz McNulty said:

So whether Biden or Trump is elected, it will have minimal effect on this.  Wonder why the Republicans are running on law and order when they really can't do much to control this.

Because there are going to be other elections.  So for example in Philadelphia, if we continue to elect Democratic Governors, Mayors and DAs then we get what we deserve.  We have evidence that Democrats can't handle the situation properly.  Maybe the Republicans can.  

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On 10/28/2020 at 9:15 AM, Mystery Achiever said:

Pennsylvanians are not looking for four more years of shooting and looting.This is happening on Trump's watch, not Biden's.

It will happen on everybodys watch going forward.  I think Biden will try and be tougher but not until the election is over. 

The rioters and looters do not care who gets shot as it gives the a reason. So that is always tough to manage for anyone.

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5 hours ago, Snotbubbles said:

Because there are going to be other elections.  So for example in Philadelphia, if we continue to elect Democratic Governors, Mayors and DAs then we get what we deserve.  We have evidence that Democrats can't handle the situation properly.  Maybe the Republicans can.  

So Philadelphia has been going downhill since 1952?

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7 hours ago, Snotbubbles said:

Because there are going to be other elections.  So for example in Philadelphia, if we continue to elect Democratic Governors, Mayors and DAs then we get what we deserve.  We have evidence that Democrats can't handle the situation properly.  Maybe the Republicans can.  

We have evidence that the Republicans can't handle it properly, either. We all saw Trump call the protesters "thugs," we saw him use police to tear gas a crowd outside the White House so he could take a photo on how badly he holds a Bible, and we saw him threaten to send in federal troops when they weren't wanted.

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16 hours ago, belljr said:

So Philadelphia has been going downhill since 1952?

I wasn't born in 1952 so I can't answer that.  I moved to the city in the 90s when Ed Rendell was mayor.  Every mayor since Rendell left office has done a worse and worse job.  I can't compare Rendell to his predecessor since I wasn't around.

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Policing will be obsolete if they can't train properly

People will take things in their own hands.....

BLM is right on this, but policing will cause a MAJOR civil and race war. 

This country is in trouble, regardless of who wins

 

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41 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:
3 hours ago, PinkydaPimp said:

Sounds like a drunk guy.  Nothing more.  Not a crisis.

I'm concerned about the police department covering up the crime to protect their own, but otherwise this is just an individual act of drunkenness and should be dealt with on that level.

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20 minutes ago, Joe Summer said:

I'm concerned about the police department covering up the crime to protect their own, but otherwise this is just an individual act of drunkenness and should be dealt with on that level.

This is my concern.  Turning off of  body cams.  Cover up by his peers.  Then you have the officer returning to the scene the next day to do or say who knows what.  Not only that, but imagine this guy defended himself that night?  This could have easily ended up like one of the articles we discuss in this thread. 

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On 10/27/2020 at 12:20 PM, Kal El said:

Still not a valid reason to kill him. It's a melee weapon, the poluce have several ranged ones that don't have to kill. There's still a disconnect here.

 

 

OK, seriously now, the question that needs to be asked how much does the average citizen understand the use of force continuum?  I would say on a national level, there needs to be more video related discussion of the parameters around the use of force by law enforcement.

 

****

 

Activist critical of police undergoes use of force scenarios

•Jan 7, 2015

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAJXP0okzwk

 

We've seen protests all across the country after police officers have been accused of shooting people who aren't armed. Jarrett Maupin, a vocal critic of police during recent protests, went through force training with local authorities. FOX 10's Troy Hayden also went through the training and discusses the results.

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