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Another killing at the hands of the Police (8 Viewers)

CGRdrJoe said:
it really is sickening 
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It really, truly is

I get the caution from the police.  I respect them but to listen to all these people that because you don't do things exactly right you should be shot to death by a trigger happy officer just doesn't make sense.  I guess in the end, this type of thing, goes part and parcel with the gun debate.  When you are police officer you have to assume that everyone is armed and ready to kill.  That's just the country.  

 
CGRdrJoe said:
really? I've been pulled over and put on the ground before at gun point because my vehicle matched the description of one used in a robbery. I can tell you that I had 0 confidence in those that continued pointing the gun at me even after the dispatcher came over the radio and said it was a red ford truck and not a red jeep truck. They continued to yell contradicting things at me, one would yell arms to the side while the other yelled arms out in front. In the end I barely got a sorry as they went back into their car and took off. F the police.
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And Ren said it with authority.

 
[icon] said:
Prior arrests for illegal firearms and other crimes, coupled with alleged reports of firearms being pointed/waved on the scene prior to arrival DO warrant officers using more force, and being more sensitive to escalating the use of force continuum. 
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If we are talking about Sterling, he did not point his gun.  He did not wave his gun.  His gun (if that was what it was) was in his pocket.   The police pulled his gun out of his pocket AFTER he was shot in the chest, dying.

 
CGRdrJoe said:
really? I've been pulled over and put on the ground before at gun point because my vehicle matched the description of one used in a robbery. I can tell you that I had 0 confidence in those that continued pointing the gun at me even after the dispatcher came over the radio and said it was a red ford truck and not a red jeep truck. They continued to yell contradicting things at me, one would yell arms to the side while the other yelled arms out in front. In the end I barely got a sorry as they went back into their car and took off. F the police.
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Well...F those police.

 
Sweet J said:
If we are talking about Sterling, he did not point his gun.  He did not wave his gun.  His gun (if that was what it was) was in his pocket.   The police pulled his gun out of his pocket AFTER he was shot in the chest, dying.
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You realize that every single law enforcement training protocol indicates that IF a suspect is reaching for or fighting for a firearm while resisting arrest, you are cleared to use lethal force via the use of force continuum, right? There is not a single department that requires a gun to be pointed at you to shoot them.  

Regarding the pointing and waiving in my post, I have read unconfirmed reports of him pointing/waving the gun prior to the officers arriving (which is what triggered the call to police). IF that is true, I can understand the officers being on edge. 

NOBODY here knows for sure if he was trying to get the gun out of his pocket or not... Video shows a lot of arm jerking but is inconclusive. Anyone implying to know for sure is either an idiot or badly biased, based on the evidence I'VE personally seen (I welcome anything I may have missed). 

IF evidence shows he wasn't fighting to access the firearm, these cops should be tried for 2nd degree murder. 
IF evidence shows the suspect was fighting to access the firearm while resisting arrest, the officers should and will be exonerated. 



 

 
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CGRdrJoe said:
really? I've been pulled over and put on the ground before at gun point because my vehicle matched the description of one used in a robbery. I can tell you that I had 0 confidence in those that continued pointing the gun at me even after the dispatcher came over the radio and said it was a red ford truck and not a red jeep truck. They continued to yell contradicting things at me, one would yell arms to the side while the other yelled arms out in front. In the end I barely got a sorry as they went back into their car and took off. F the police.
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Wow, it's amazing you're still here posting with us today.  How many times were you shot in this encounter?

 
TripItUp said:
B) Why doesn't this happen to white persons with the same frequency
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I'd like to see a comparison of "gun crime / arrest rates" of black/white compared to "shot by police" rates for black/white persons. 

I'm not implying a direct correlation as I don't have the info in front of me... but if black men ARE disproportionately involved in contact with police for gun/violent crime, it would safe to assume a resulting disproportionately high rate of being shot by police. 

In NO way am I ever implying that there are no bad cops, or that every police shooting is justified.... 

 
[icon] said:
I'd like to see a comparison of "gun crime / arrest rates" of black/white compared to "shot by police" rates for black/white persons. 

I'm not implying a direct correlation as I don't have the info in front of me... but if black men ARE disproportionately involved in contact with police for gun/violent crime, it would safe to assume a resulting disproportionately high rate of being shot by police. 

In NO way am I ever implying that there are no bad cops, or that every police shooting is justified.... 
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Agreed

 
James Daulton said:
Really?  Are you a cop?  Because with the temperament and attitude of some of these cops, anytime they'd have me in any kind of controversial situation I'd be nervous.
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You going to quickly grab for something in your pockets or not follow their orders? What's there to be nervous about?

 
whoknew said:
You don't think it was an overreaction to pull her gun on you and cuff you?
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We were in a rural area with help for her likely several minutes away at best.  I am a fairly large male.  Dusk was coming on.  My truck is fairly high and she was fairly petite meaning she had a poor view of the interior.  I think by my alerting her to the gun she might have felt more secure that I had no intent to use it as I would be giving up any element of surprise, but in the end I do not think her reaction was out of line.  I endured a very short detention to insure her safety and mine while she came to control and understand the situation.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
I can tell you how I handled a traffic stop, you can take from it what you will.

First, some background.  In my job I was authorized to carry, and in fact was required to do so for a time.  I have a badge but was not uniformed unless a suit and tie is a uniform.  I was driving my personal vehicle.  My registration had expired and I was aware of that.  The reason for the expired tag was actually an administrative error by the State and I had the relevant paperwork to show that, and I was, in fact, returning from addressing that fact.

So I was driving, lawfully, in the next jurisdiction over from the one where I work and am well known.  I got pulled over.  I pulled out of traffic, parked immediately, put on my hazard lights, shut off my engine, rolled down my window, put on my dome light (it was twilight, and I placed my hands on the steering wheel with my keys dangling from my finger.  A very young, quite attractive Deputy approached.  She asked if I knew why she had pulled me over.  I stated I did not care to speculate.  she told me my registration tag was expired.  I told her I could explain and could show her documentation to back up my explanation.  She asked for my license and registration.  Before moving I told her my license was in my wallet in my back pocket and my registration was in the glove box.  I told her I would have to reach for each and did I have permission to move.  She seemed nervous but said that I did.  Before moving I told her that  the glove box also contained a handgun and would she feel more comfortable securing me and getting the registration and POI herself.  She drew her weapon and asked me to get out of the  vehicle.  I complied.  I leaned against my truck, spread my legs without request, and placed my hands behind me.  She cuffed me.  It was sexy.  She retrieved my weapon, paperwork, and badge case, also in the glove box.  We then talked. Everything was cleared up in a matter of moments. We both went about our business safely.  Some years later I  had cause to interact with her in court. She remembered the interaction.  She stated she appreciated the way I handled the matter. 
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This is key here....You got nothing to hide and cooperate and in most cases the interaction is very brief.....Sounds like Castile had the bad luck of coming across a poorly trained/controlled officer...

 
whoknew said:
Who knows? In DW's case it was for having an expired registration.
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FALSE In his case it was because the officer was not confortable with DW reaching in his glove box where he said there was a gun.  If she wanted to go to the glove box herself to get the registration, insurance then she would have to turn her back on him.  So she rightfully detained him. 

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I can tell you how I handled a traffic stop, you can take from it what you will.

First, some background.  In my job I was authorized to carry, and in fact was required to do so for a time.  I have a badge but was not uniformed unless a suit and tie is a uniform.  I was driving my personal vehicle.  My registration had expired and I was aware of that.  The reason for the expired tag was actually an administrative error by the State and I had the relevant paperwork to show that, and I was, in fact, returning from addressing that fact.

So I was driving, lawfully, in the next jurisdiction over from the one where I work and am well known.  I got pulled over.  I pulled out of traffic, parked immediately, put on my hazard lights, shut off my engine, rolled down my window, put on my dome light (it was twilight, and I placed my hands on the steering wheel with my keys dangling from my finger.  A very young, quite attractive Deputy approached.  She asked if I knew why she had pulled me over.  I stated I did not care to speculate.  she told me my registration tag was expired.  I told her I could explain and could show her documentation to back up my explanation.  She asked for my license and registration.  Before moving I told her my license was in my wallet in my back pocket and my registration was in the glove box.  I told her I would have to reach for each and did I have permission to move.  She seemed nervous but said that I did.  Before moving I told her that  the glove box also contained a handgun and would she feel more comfortable securing me and getting the registration and POI herself.  She drew her weapon and asked me to get out of the  vehicle.  I complied.  I leaned against my truck, spread my legs without request, and placed my hands behind me.  She cuffed me.  It was sexy.  She retrieved my weapon, paperwork, and badge case, also in the glove box.  We then talked. Everything was cleared up in a matter of moments. We both went about our business safely.  Some years later I  had cause to interact with her in court. She remembered the interaction.  She stated she appreciated the way I handled the matter. 
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I personally feel drawing her weapon and cuffing you was a BIT overkill, but also within scope of fair interaction... especially in the case of a female officer subject to being overpowered by a larger subject (which my notebook seems to indicate). 

 

 
True story: last time I had a gun pulled on me by a cop it's because he thought my cell phone going off in my briefcase in the middle of a stop was someone hiding in the back seat.

 
whiskey7 said:
IIRC, officer drew upon being told DW had a handgun in glove box. He was only stopped for the expired registration. Just sayin...
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I don't know how to double quote so this is for both you and ATC, but I did use a little artistic license there. I admit.

Having said that, I took Say What?'s comment to mean that law abiders don't have cops pull guns on them. That most certainly is not true - as is evidenced by DW. And (at the least) the passenger in MN who luckily survived the cop shooting.

 
TripItUp said:
A) It's pretty clear that the process for pulling individuals over and engaging them in dangerous situations(Ferguson)  needs to be completely revamped.

B) Why doesn't this happen to white persons with the same frequency?
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Apparently it may...We just don't hear about it...Doesn't make for dirty laundry when a white cop shoots a white victim....News likes to race bait

"Castile is at least the 506th person shot and killed by police so far in 2016, according to a Washington Post database that tracks such shootings.

He is one of 123 black Americans shot and killed by police so far in 2016, according to the database. About 10 percent of the black Americans shot and killed were unarmed at the time of the shooting, while about 61 percent were armed with a gun."

That leaves 383 unaccounted shootings that one would have to assume a good portion are white..

 
ATC1 said:
FALSE In his case it was because the officer was not confortable with DW reaching in his glove box where he said there was a gun.  If she wanted to go to the glove box herself to get the registration, insurance then she would have to turn her back on him.  So she rightfully detained him. 
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Exactly. If an officer feels safer doing so, it's justifiable to detain someone temporarily while they put themselves in a compromising position (reaching into a car to secure a firearm). I have never been detained for that purpose, but would have zero issue with it if it kept the officer comfortable through the stop. 

 
The most recent shooting happened less than a mile from my workplace, near the Jimmy John's that delivers lunch for me at an unhealthy rate. It's not a high crime area as far as I've ever known, with rows of cute little houses and strip mall style stores. My best friend's wife and several of my friends went to the same high school he did at around the same time. No excuse for the officer's actions. I hope he sees jail time for what he did. Cops deserve to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us, given their state-mandated position of power.

 
I carry and if I get pulled over for anything I will comply, keep the hands on the wheel and say I am going to move before doing so.  That being said I would still be nervous more now then a couple of years ago.  It's just as stressful to the officers I'm sure.  It maybe protocol now to pull the gun out on certain situations where it may not have been required before a few years ago. 

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
We were in a rural area with help for her likely several minutes away at best.  I am a fairly large male.  Dusk was coming on.  My truck is fairly high and she was fairly petite meaning she had a poor view of the interior.  I think by my alerting her to the gun she might have felt more secure that I had no intent to use it as I would be giving up any element of surprise, but in the end I do not think her reaction was out of line.  I endured a very short detention to insure her safety and mine while she came to control and understand the situation.
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Are you Jack Reacher?.....You sound like Jack Reacher..

 
SayWhat? said:
Why does he have a gun over you?
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If if he doesn't have it pointed at me, he has it.  If he only perceives me doing something he suspects I could be dead.  What if I reach up to scratch my nose and he draws and fires?  While the chances are the low, the chance is there and that is frightening.  Especially when you consider that our best, brightest, most level headed citizens don't typically become cops.

 
mcintyre1 said:
The most recent shooting happened less than a mile from my workplace, near the Jimmy John's that delivers lunch for me at an unhealthy rate. It's not a high crime area as far as I've ever known, with rows of cute little houses and strip mall style stores. My best friend's wife and several of my friends went to the same high school he did at around the same time. No excuse for the officer's actions. I hope he sees jail time for what he did. Cops deserve to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us, given their state-mandated position of power.
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Do you know that Jimmy John hunts exotic game for sport?

(No judgment obviously. I was just glad when I found out so I could stop eating there).

 
Also, I have since changed my ring tone to purely instrumental music, rather than something that starts with Willie Nelson's voice.  

 
It's clear that more education and guidance needs to be given to both officers and the general public. 

Not to mention some serious process revamps.  We're using the same processes that we've used for the last several decades and the world has changed.

 
Henry Ford said:
Serious answer:

In some jurisdictions, they bar applicants who score too high.
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Ditka Butkus said:
Supposedly they do a Psychological evaluation
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Wow, these answers are surprising to me.  The evaluation of who can become a policeman may need to be completely overhauled as well.

this problem seems fixable, but it's going to take a serious overhauling of major processes.

 
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[icon] said:
I personally feel drawing her weapon and cuffing you was a BIT overkill, but also within scope of fair interaction... especially in the case of a female officer subject to being overpowered by a larger subject (which my notebook seems to indicate). 

 
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I thought the interaction was appropriate.

 
James Daulton said:
If if he doesn't have it pointed at me, he has it.  If he only perceives me doing something he suspects I could be dead.  What if I reach up to scratch my nose and he draws and fires?  While the chances are the low, the chance is there and that is frightening.  Especially when you consider that our best, brightest, most level headed citizens don't typically become cops.
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I don't claim to have encylopedic knowledge of citizen/officer encounters... but generally shootings meet two criteria: 1) tensions are already high (combative/non-compliant subject) and 2) subject makes motion to a known firearm, or a very common location of firearm holstering (waistline, pocket, etc).

Now in a perfect world, officers wouldn't shoot until they see the firearm, and see it being raised toward them... but that is simply unrealistic. Unfortunately even perfectly placed shots (hitting heart/head/arteries/CNS) don't neutralize a subject instantly... and usually several shots are required to stop the threat.... hence why officers are trained to "shoot to stop" (ie keep firing until threat is neutralized/incapacitated). 

 They're damned if they do, damned if they don't. 
• Wait till the gun is visible and being raised to you? Cool... it takes 1-2 seconds max to raise a pistol into firing position, acquire a target and fire. Average reaction time is about half a second.  A threat usually takes several shots/several seconds to be neutralized. 
• Don't overshoot the target. Okay so I'm supposed to wait until I'm 0.5-1.5 seconds from being shot... but then I can't shoot any more rounds that absolutely necessary while I'm in the split-second, high-stress situation of a high-stakes gunfight for my life? 

Anyone with any firearms experience understands placing those expectations of LEO interactions when their lives are on the line is kinda silly... 

 
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