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***** Official Westworld Thread ***** (1 Viewer)

kupcho1 said:
This show will go down in history as the first show made almost exclusively for Reddit.

Great job internet!
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Yeah, like I said a few pages ago - I'm ok having to think through a puzzle and having "to be continued" being the nature of the beast.  I don't need instant gratification and happy endings each hour long episode.  I'm ok with a mind****.

But to a point.  Mind**** for the sake of mind****ing gets old.  I would have preferred a few more clear results that would have made the episode a lot more enjoyable, but I'm not that mad.

I was really hoping they would get to the Forge and in the center room where the main brain is a young Ford and young William were there playing a game of chess. I think that would have been a really really enjoyable visual.

 
shadyridr said:
That was exactly what I said that scene reminded me of. It didn't work in that movie and didn't work here. 
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I thought that role was closer to the butler dude in Ready Player One. He wasn't in charge, he was just the guy showing people around.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Yeah, like I said a few pages ago - I'm ok having to think through a puzzle and having "to be continued" being the nature of the beast.  I don't need instant gratification and happy endings each hour long episode.  I'm ok with a mind****.

But to a point.  Mind**** for the sake of mind****ing gets old.  I would have preferred a few more clear results that would have made the episode a lot more enjoyable, but I'm not that mad.

I was really hoping they would get to the Forge and in the center room where the main brain is a young Ford and young William were there playing a game of chess. I think that would have been a really really enjoyable visual.
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Remember when Bernard said something like "I had to rearrange my memories to keep them from finding out". That was a direct line from the writers of the show to the audience. That turned from a storytelling tool into them either playing around or using it as a crutch

 
Dedfin said:
I thought that role was closer to the butler dude in Ready Player One. He wasn't in charge, he was just the guy showing people around.
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Yeah, not going down the Matrix hole again.

Like I said, I think he was a very clever and interesting character to plant into that role.  The Forge is the culmination of the failure of humanity to be what we've been taught it means to be human.  It's just a code like anything else, free will is an illusion, blah blah blah.  The Forge is almost literally hell.  Another visual that I think they really missed the point on was that the Forge should have been ice cold.  In Dante's descent into hell, when he finally gets to Lucifer, that level of hell is not fire, but ice cold.  Had we been able to see their breath while they talked in that room would have been a great little nod there.

As for Logan being the butler/architect character, he is the entity leading the lightspeed downfall of humanity in that room.  He is the personification of the failure of James Delos' quest for immortality, which is fitting given that at the ultimate moment where he should have been a father and his son was telling him I have seen the bottom, I'm here, help me please, he turned his back on him.  No father should ever be so cold as to do that, and that moment sealed his fate.  That is why no matter how many times they run the simulations of Delos he always ends up there making that awful choice.  That is who he was.  So it's only fitting for his son to be the face of his failure over and over and over and over again throughout all time until the system is shut down - and in the process the system is learning humanity and its code.

It's a perfect middle finger from Ford to Delos just like he seemed to have the perfect middle finger to everyone he gave it to in the entire story.

 
Dedfin said:
Remember when Bernard said something like "I had to rearrange my memories to keep them from finding out". That was a direct line from the writers of the show to the audience. That turned from a storytelling tool into them either playing around or using it as a crutch
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Maybe.  I'm willing to give them some rope here in terms of the story given that the end credits scene makes it clear this story is going to take place over years if not decades or more.  It's entirely possible that the end credits scene could be a thousand years after the events of season two.

 
So Bernard killed Dolores and took her cpu and swapped the encryption key.

As Bernard steps out of the doors he is greeted by Charlotte and Elsie (who led them there) and then they go back to HQ Because the place is about to flood. 

William somehow did not make it down the elevator and we dont know how he made it out of the flood. 

At some point Charlotte kills Elsie.  And this causes Bernard to change his mind about Dolores. So he makes a copy of Charlotte.  Had her killed. And then they go back to the Forge.  Then all of those who had already gone through the door have their data beamed to a different server. 

Then Bernard is killed and brought back and we have Charlotte (with a different cpu?) and Dolores back in her body. 

Im still not sure “when” Bernard made his decisions and when Elsie was killed etc

 
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Leeroy Jenkins said:
So Bernard killed Dolores and took her cpu and swapped the encryption key.

As Bernard steps out of the doors he is greeted by Charlotte and Elsie (who led them there) and then they go back to HQ Because the place is about to flood. 

William somehow did not make it down the elevator and we dont know how he made it out of the flood. 

At some point Charlotte kills Elsie.  And this causes Bernard to change his mind about Dolores. So he makes a copy of Charlotte.  Had her killed. And then they go back to the Forge.  Then all of those who had already gone through the door have their data beamed to a different server. 

Then Bernard is killed and brought back and we have Charlotte (with a different cpu?) and Dolores back in her body. 

Im still not sure “when” Bernard made his decisions and when Elsie was killed etc
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I'll give you another one to ponder....

….I don't think that was William's daughter in the end credit scene.

 
I am generally completely confused regarding timelines in this show. I found last night equally as confusing until nearing the end. I thought they pretty clearly established what happens when :shrug:

 
After samurai world, I thought season 2 was pretty great TV and last night was pretty solid.  Don't understand everything going on all the time, but this thread is sure fun to read (I can only imagine reddit).  

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
Ok then please help me. 
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I'm thinking a re-watch knowing the Hale twist makes the episode come together better?  I really got lost somewhere in the middle/end of the episode when it really started moving.  

I might do all of season 2 again minus Samurai World.  I know I said that after season 1, but only got about halfway through.  It needs to be a total binge over a few days or I lose interest.  

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
When did bernard make dolores into Charlotte?
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I am assuming sometime after he shot her.  I am not sure when he hatched the plan to make her into Charlotte though (guessing after),  I don't think he killed Delores with that in mind, he seemed to just freak out and shoot her at the time.

 
The season opened with Bernard waking up at the beach with overturned chairs and champagne glasses around, implying it was the aftermath of the S1 finale massacre. When he laid down on that same beach after scrambling his memories, there was none of that laying around.

 
:shrug:

I liked it.  But, I am easily entertained.

Sort of hard to follow the levels of Inception - but I got the basic story line.

Bummer to see Elsie die.

 
Sinn Fein said:
:shrug:

I liked it.  But, I am easily entertained.

Sort of hard to follow the levels of Inception - but I got the basic story line.

Bummer to see Elsie die.
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yep that's where I am at with it.   I feel a little of the confusion is on me too as I have been know to mess round on my phone while watching this throughout this season or smoke a bunch of weed before it.  I can follow it close enough where I at least think I know what's going on (I probably don't).

 
Awesome show, awesome finally.  I guess some people prefer turn you brain off shows like the Walking Dead.  I prefer a challenge and this was a fun ride.

The biggest complaint I might have is leaving the door open to....literally everything in Season 3... as they left an opening for every major character to be able to return somehow.  I didn't really like Dolores switching from destroying the virtual world to saving it (I guess her sending Teddy's consciousness some where safe is the reasoning) or her killing Bernard and then recreating him from memory once she escaped to the real world (for some unknown reason).  Don't really like beaming the new virtual world to someplace safe, yet Dolores knows where it is.

Really liked that half the time we saw Charlotte we were really seeing Doloris pretending to be Charlotte.  Really liked Bernard finally fighting back after Elsie's death.  Really liked Doloris reading all digital copies (books) of the humans to gain a competitive advantage.  Really liked the idea that humans (and the key to reproducing their consciousness) is realizing they ultimately do not have free will as no matter what Delos turns his back on his son and the MIB ends up killing his daughter.

I'm going to have to re-watch the discussions between Bernard and Ford when Bernard made his decisions.  It seemed like the virtual world where the hosts were finally "free" is what Arnold wanted before he died yet after seeing a human kill Elies he decides to help Dolores become Charlotte in order to "escape" which is more along the lines of what Ford wanted and it is at that time Bernard finally reached full consciousness later dismissing the Ford discussions after deletion of his code as being fabricated by himself.  Fascinating stuff.

I'm torn on the final scene, on one hand we learn that MIB is a host..but...somewhere in the future and doesn't answer the question definitively whether he is a host in during this seasons events.  I want to think human because that is when he killed his daughter, yet it might be the first of many loops and her initial "death" is when he abandoned her for the park.  On the other hand it sets up Season 3 with a deeper meaning to the loop he is running with his daughter like he did with Delos, far into the future:

“That no system can tell me who I am,” he says. “That I have a ####### choice.”

“And yet here we are. Again.”

 
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The other interesting twist was Dolores interviewing Bernard in the real world after she created him.  At first she is shown in the famous blue dress and then the camera angle goes wonky and it switches to her black evening gown she wore when first talking to Arnold in the outside world, and Bernard naked, as if she just got done making him.

 
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tonydead said:
The other interesting twist was Dolores interviewing Bernard in the real world after she created him.  At first she is shown in the famous blue dress and then the camera angle goes wonky and it switches to her black evening gown she wore when first talking to Arnold in the outside world, and Bernard naked, as if she just got done making him.
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I figured the first was how Bernard was perceiving it and the second was what was really happening.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
As for Logan being the butler/architect character, he is the entity leading the lightspeed downfall of humanity in that room.  He is the personification of the failure of James Delos' quest for immortality, which is fitting given that at the ultimate moment where he should have been a father and his son was telling him I have seen the bottom, I'm here, help me please, he turned his back on him.  No father should ever be so cold as to do that, and that moment sealed his fate.  That is why no matter how many times they run the simulations of Delos he always ends up there making that awful choice.  That is who he was.  So it's only fitting for his son to be the face of his failure over and over and over and over again throughout all time until the system is shut down - and in the process the system is learning humanity and its code.
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Along those lines, in the post script scene with the man in black, it's his daughter and she says we always end up here. Which means his irredeemable moment is killing his daughter. He one upped James Delos.

 
tommyboy said:
Along those lines, in the post script scene with the man in black, it's his daughter and she says we always end up here. Which means his irredeemable moment is killing his daughter. He one upped James Delos.
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Yup, that's his cornerstone. That's why he winds up in the same condition when he meets his daughter at the end. He can't change the result.

 
jamny said:
OK, re-watched this part and am still confused. When Strand, Charlotte and Bernard first enter The Forge, you can clearly see another Bernard watching them enter, much like we have seen Bernard have flashbacks this season. But how is that possible if that scene is the most current of the storyline?
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I got a decent answer to this from a friend on FB. If you consider that maybe Bernard was talking to Dolores about this later on (when she had the black dress) it would allow for a flashback in that moment. Not an ideal explanation but at least a plausible one. At least until a better one comes along. :D

 
tommyboy said:
Along those lines, in the post script scene with the man in black, it's his daughter and she says we always end up here. Which means his irredeemable moment is killing his daughter. He one upped James Delos.
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True - except I don't think that it was his daughter.

I think it was Delores.  She address him as William, not dad.  In a show where everything seems to matter right down to certain camera angles, I think that was important.

 
The Gator said:
I took it as she reprinted herself after escaping as Charlotte. She said something to the effect of "he (ford) built a place for us" referring to the house in the real world with the printer. 
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Yes she rebuilt herself as Dolores but outside of the room waiting for her was Charlotte. So who was Charlotte?

 
shadyridr said:
Yes she rebuilt herself as Dolores but outside of the room waiting for her was Charlotte. So who was Charlotte?
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wondering if the new Dolores reprogrammed her fomer self/Charlotte to be a subservient version of herself.    No idea, but i'm sure we'll find in season 3

 
tommyboy said:
wondering if the new Dolores reprogrammed her fomer self/Charlotte to be a subservient version of herself.    No idea, but i'm sure we'll find in season 3
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Bernard is the one who loaded up Charlotte though, so it'll be interesting to see what he put in there. 

 
The Gator said:
Bernard is the one who loaded up Charlotte though, so it'll be interesting to see what he put in there. 
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He put Dolores in Charlotte. Charlotte built a new Dolores and somehow pulled out her own core to put in the new Dolores. Ignoring that plot hole, then Dolores put someone else's core inside Charlotte. 

 
shadyridr said:
He put Dolores in Charlotte. Charlotte built a new Dolores and somehow pulled out her own core to put in the new Dolores. Ignoring that plot hole, then Dolores put someone else's core inside Charlotte. 
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Just like Ford was in Bernard, couldn't Bernard have loaded more than just Dolores into Charlotte? Or does Dolores go back and, as Charlotte, add more soul(s)? 

 
shadyridr said:
If the show runner didn't tell us that would we have known that? That's poor writing imo
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the clue was when he was digging around in his arm and hadn't found anything- when delores arrived.   Also at the end he was referred to as a high value guest

 
The Gator said:
Bernard is the one who loaded up Charlotte though, so it'll be interesting to see what he put in there. 
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he loaded her with Dolores because he realized she was right about not giving the humans the benefit of the doubt, so he brought her back so that he could live and keep his species alive.   

 
Yeah, I don't think it's supposed to be known yet who is in Charlotte in the end. Dolores-as-Charlotte carried out 5 or 6 orbs so who knows. It might be Teddy but she uploaded him into Eden, maybe she had a duplicate.

I think MiB was human the whole time up until he got up off the ground and went into the elevator. I think that scene was attached to the after-the-credit scene and was the first host/hybrid MiB that we've seen.

 
jamny said:
Yeah, I don't think it's supposed to be known yet who is in Charlotte in the end. Dolores-as-Charlotte carried out 5 or 6 orbs so who knows. It might be Teddy but she uploaded him into Eden, maybe she had a duplicate.

I think MiB was human the whole time up until he got up off the ground and went into the elevator. I think that scene was attached to the after-the-credit scene and was the first host/hybrid MiB that we've seen.
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She had 5. Been wondering who those might have been. Bernard, definitely, because he gets rebuilt in the new world. But, the other 4?

and, i don't know if it's a distinction that matters, but MiB wasn't a host. He was the William consciousness that was stuck in cyberworld while the system tried to stabilize him, exactly like Delos was. 

 
tommyboy said:
the clue was when he was digging around in his arm and hadn't found anything- when delores arrived.   Also at the end he was referred to as a high value guest
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If the show runner didn't tell us the after credits scene was many years in the future we wouldn't have known, right?

 
shadyridr said:
If the show runner didn't tell us the after credits scene was many years in the future we wouldn't have known, right?
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Essentially, it happened in eternity... just like Delos' being frozen in the testing for however many years he was/is. You could tell it was the same teasting set-up by his daughter (cornerstone) being the one to test him and the conversation. I think.  :oldunsure:

 
ProstheticRGK said:
She had 5. Been wondering who those might have been. Bernard, definitely, because he gets rebuilt in the new world. But, the other 4?

and, i don't know if it's a distinction that matters, but MiB wasn't a host. He was the William consciousness that was stuck in cyberworld while the system tried to stabilize him, exactly like Delos was. 
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Yes, not a host with a physical body. Just a consciousness in some future Forge. But I do question why it wasn't in a widescreen version like we saw in the Cradle and Forge.

 
The writers have basically left this open ended enough that they can write in any scenario and its now possible.  Time doesn't matter, being dead doesn't matter, characters can change bodies and some can scramble their memories just so they have another key to confuse the audience.

This is Lost on steroids.  It's the same thing all over again, they won't ever be able to finish what they started without it being either too implausible or disappointing.

There were a lot of cringe worthy moments in last night's episode but if you didn't find the Door to be completely hokey, then continue on.  In an episode full of terrible moments, that sequence was the worst.  Shark jumped.

 
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