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"Never apologize for being white..." (1 Viewer)

Uwe Blab

Uwe Blab

Footballguy
So my tweenage son was over hanging out at a neighbor's house down the street a bit last evening, playing with his similarly aged buddy. The kid's dad has the national news on and they start showing a BLM march. Neighbor's son asks what is the protest all about. My son says after the dad mentioned something about police brutality he says "Boys, always remember to treat people how you want to be treated." (Good here) Then he adds "Also always be proud of who you are....never apologize to anyone for being white."

My first reaction was to raise an eyebrow and give an internal grimace but then the words themselves are pretty benign. What do you all think? Little too "white power-y" for your liking or no problemo,  fine message?  Start hiding WW2 memorabilia?  I just kind of stumbled around and gave my son the generic "Oh, really? Hmmm." 

 
Uwe Blab said:
So my tweenage son was over hanging out at a neighbor's house down the street a bit last evening, playing with his similarly aged buddy. The kid's dad has the national news on and they start showing a BLM march. Neighbor's son asks what is the protest all about. My son says after the dad mentioned something about police brutality he says "Boys, always remember to treat people how you want to be treated." (Good here) Then he adds "Also always be proud of who you are....never apologize to anyone for being white."

My first reaction was to raise an eyebrow and give an internal grimace but then the words themselves are pretty benign. What do you all think? Little too "white power-y" for your liking or no problemo,  fine message?  Start hiding WW2 memorabilia?  I just kind of stumbled around and gave my son the generic "Oh, really? Hmmm." 
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I see no reason why someone should apologize for something they had no control over.

It comes across as disingenuous. 

 
Why do you think it's cringey? How does it come across as 'white power-y' at all? In no way did anything you mention imply a suggestion that any race was better/worse than another. 

 
That advice will come in handy all those times in life when someone is going to ask them to apologize for being white.

 
OP, the fact that you feel uneasy about such a benign statement shows why that statement should be said.  You're not alone in your uneasiness.  We've been trained to view any expression of white pride, even benign statements like the one in question, as being tinged with racism.  Few if any members of other groups experience such uneasiness over comparable statements about their group.  Quite the contrary, nearly all members of other groups would see a similar statement of their group as a positive to be applauded rather than a negative to be worried about.

 
Pots said:
Why do you think it's cringey? How does it come across as 'white power-y' at all? In no way did anything you mention imply a suggestion that any race was better/worse than another. 
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Lol, honestly I don't know, it was just my honest, kept to myself reaction.  Like I said the words taken in a vacuum ("help, I'm in a vacuum") are benign. Just seemed like one of those sentiments that could carry a little more behind it. No visible iron crosses on him though so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  

 
But if I can't have my "white guilt" how will I feel better about myself, and let everyone else know I'm a good person?

 
Uwe Blab said:
Lol, honestly I don't know, it was just my honest, kept to myself reaction.  Like I said the words taken in a vacuum ("help, I'm in a vacuum") are benign. Just seemed like one of those sentiments that could carry a little more behind it. No visible iron crosses on him though so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  
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Yeah, nothing wrong with it in a vacuum but... it's not really the sort of thing that people without at least some white-power-y inclinations ever feel compelled to say.

 
Gary Coal Man said:
OP, the fact that you feel uneasy about such a benign statement shows why that statement should be said.  You're not alone in your uneasiness.  We've been trained to view any expression of white pride, even benign statements like the one in question, as being tinged with racism.  Few if any members of other groups experience such uneasiness over comparable statements about their group.  Quite the contrary, nearly all members of other groups would see a similar statement of their group as a positive to be applauded rather than a negative to be worried about.
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But there are no "other groups" like "white people", and that's the problem. I think people should be proud of their ethnic heritage. I'm proud to be a Jewish American (Jewish in this context being more of an ethnicity than a religion.) Irish Americans, Mexican Americans, African-Americans, Italian Americans, Vietnamese Americans should all be proud, take pride in achievements. There's nothing wrong with any of that. But "white"- that's not an ethnicity. "White pride" is based solely on skin shade, and is therefore racist. IMO. 

 
Feeling uncomfortable with that statement is a product of today's society. No reason at all to second guess that comment, despite the post above. 

 
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timschochet said:
But there are no "other groups" like "white people", and that's the problem. I think people should be proud of their ethnic heritage. I'm proud to be a Jewish American (Jewish in this context being more of an ethnicity than a religion.) Irish Americans, Mexican Americans, African-Americans, Italian Americans, Vietnamese Americans should all be proud, take pride in achievements. There's nothing wrong with any of that. But "white"- that's not an ethnicity. "White pride" is based solely on skin shade, and is therefore racist. IMO. 
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right, but the dad didn't say "be proud to be white!"

he said "never apologize for being white"

 
Thorn said:
right, but the dad didn't say "be proud to be white!"

he said "never apologize for being white"
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Sure, but I was responding to Gary Coal Man, not the original post. I don't really have a problem with the dad's statement per se, but I would never have said it. 

 
There's a fine line between "never apologize for being white" and "never acknowledge that white people have done bad things".  I suspect a lot of people who refuse to apologize for being white would be the first to shove black on black crime and out of wedlock births back at BLM.

I'm multiracial so my ethnic group is basically me and my two sisters.  I acknowledge their faults and urge them to be more like me.

 
timschochet said:
But there are no "other groups" like "white people", and that's the problem. I think people should be proud of their ethnic heritage. I'm proud to be a Jewish American (Jewish in this context being more of an ethnicity than a religion.) Irish Americans, Mexican Americans, African-Americans, Italian Americans, Vietnamese Americans should all be proud, take pride in achievements. There's nothing wrong with any of that. But "white"- that's not an ethnicity. "White pride" is based solely on skin shade, and is therefore racist. IMO. 
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Do you apply that same standard to other groups who choose to identify themselves based on skin color or means other than ethnicity?

I routinely see black friends who know their country or tribe of origin yet they express black pride rather than, say, Igbo Pride, Nigerian Pride or African-American Pride.  Are they wrong?  Because I certainly don't begrudge them the right to show pride in how they choose to identify themselves, black.

I have another friend who is Peruvian.  He's doing exceptionally well for himself professionally by basing his firm (shameless plug) entirely on Latino identity not Peruvian identity.  His firm posts all include the hashtag: #‎Latinos4Latinos‬.  I've applauded him for identifying and profiting off an identity niche in the market.  That identity niche transcends both nationality and ethnicity (as there are numerous ethnic groups that fall under the umbrella of Latino).  Based on your rationale, Tim, should I have chastised my friend rather than applaud  him?

 
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Apple Jack said:
Nothing wrong with the sentiment. Seems an odd thing to say to a couple kids though.
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Well, that's what's wrong with the statement. I'd be pissed if someone was putting that in my kids head.

Who are these people supposedly apologizing for being white, anyway?

 
If you moves in the right circles and follows the right (mostly online) media, you can find small colonies of groupthink that consider merely being "a white person" incorrect. It's akin to the concept of original sin -- "Since you were raised white in the United States, you have a lot to answer for".

I'm not saying the mindset is especially pervasive in society or harmful to self-identified "white people" as a collective**. But I can conceive of individual "white persons" getting backed into corners when dealing with strident individuals believing certain things about racial identity in America. Imagine, for example, being a self-identified "white person" having to deal with the author of this piece (can skim to get gist) as a co-worker, or your child's teacher, etc.
 

** individuals, on the other hand, certainly can be situationally harmed in both trivial and profound ways.

 
Skoo said:
Who are these people supposedly apologizing for being white, anyway?
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There's not a lot of apologizing out there, you're right. But it's not hard to find people obliquely asking for apologies (call for reparations fall under this umbrella, IMHO). Once again -- not pervasive in society, but it's a mindset that is out there.

 
Gary Coal Man said:
Do you apply that same standard to other groups who choose to identify themselves based on skin color or means other than ethnicity?

I routinely see black friends who know their country or tribe of origin yet they express black pride rather than, say, Nigerian Pride or African-American Pride.  Are they wrong?  Because I certainly don't begrudge them the right to show pride in how they choose to identify themselves, black.

I have another friend who is Peruvian.  He's doing exceptionally well for himself professionally by basing his firm (shameless plug) entirely on Latino identity not Peruvian identity.  His firm posts all include the hashtag: #‎Latinos4Latinos‬.  I've applauded him for identifying and profiting off an identity niche in the market.  That identity niche transcends both nationality and ethnicity (as there are numerous ethnic groups that fall under the umbrella of Latino).  Based on your rationale, Tim, should I have chastised my friend rather than applaud  him?
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No, but I admit it gets complicated. Latino pride is OK, and black pride (rather than "African-American pride) is also OK, because both terms encapsulate a series of ethnic traits, history, and NOT INSIGNIFICANTLY, struggle. "White" has none of this, so white pride is not OK.

For instance: everybody knows the first modern black American baseball player was Jackie Robinson. We are proud of his achievements as an American, and as a black American. But who was the first white American baseball player? That's not something most people know, or care about, because there was no rule restricting baseball for whites. So at least part of this discussion, and part of ethnic pride, is based on minority struggle. 

 
Doug B said:
There's not a lot of apologizing out there, you're right. But it's not hard to find people obliquely asking for apologies (call for reparations fall under this umbrella, IMHO). Once again -- not pervasive in society, but it's a mindset that is out there.
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I don't think calling for reparations is apologizing for being white. Apologizing for the past actions of whites, maybe.

Either way, "never apologize for being white" definitely has a white supremacist feel to it. Or maybe that white genocide nonsense.

 
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Doug B said:
If you moves in the right circles and follows the right (mostly online) media, you can find small colonies of groupthink that consider merely being "a white person" incorrect. It's akin to the concept of original sin -- "Since you were raised white in the United States, you have a lot to answer for".
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Everybody has a lot to answer for but honest self-assessment <> apologizing.

I'm not sure we collectively understand the meaning of apologies anymore.  There have many non-apology apologies from people who are really admitting they got caught instead of that they were wrong.  On the other extreme, Obama has been criticized since his first term for the mythical apology tour where he mentioned past policy decisions but didn't apologize for them.

 
Parrothead said:
according to Crayola, I'm "flesh" colored
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Not since 1962.  "Flesh" was changed and eventually became "Peach".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Crayola_crayon_colors

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/22/crayola-crayon-color-history_n_7345924.html

Certain colors have been renamed for political reasons, like “Flesh.”
What color is flesh? According to Welter, it’s the lightly pigmented, roughly universal shade we see on our palms — like the Crayola crayon by that name. For most people, however, flesh refers to skin tone, and the problem with making one beige-y shade the only skin-tone crayon available is obvious. But until the early 1960s, Welter explained, the company hadn’t yet realized how the name could cause consternation. A social researcher noticed children using the shade to draw people, teasing darker-skinned classmates who didn’t match the crayon. Shortly after the researcher wrote a letter to the company in 1962, (after a couple back-and-forth years with the name Pink Beige, for some reason) the Crayola shade became known as Peach.
 

 
timschochet said:
No, but I admit it gets complicated. Latino pride is OK, and black pride (rather than "African-American pride) is also OK, because both terms encapsulate a series of ethnic traits, history, and NOT INSIGNIFICANTLY, struggle. "White" has none of this, so white pride is not OK.

For instance: everybody knows the first modern black American baseball player was Jackie Robinson. We are proud of his achievements as an American, and as a black American. But who was the first white American baseball player? That's not something most people know, or care about, because there was no rule restricting baseball for whites. So at least part of this discussion, and part of ethnic pride, is based on minority struggle. 
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Cmon. Alexander Cartwright. 

 
I don't think there is anything wrong with what he said.  A tad odd to say but nothing I would get worked about if someone said to my kids.

As to those who say that is a racist thing to say that is just silly.  Saying white pride is not ok but black pride is ok doesn't make any sense to me.  Once again something I would never say as not sure why anyone would take pride due to the color of the skin.  Take pride in who you are not what you look like. 

 
timschochet said:
No, but I admit it gets complicated. Latino pride is OK, and black pride (rather than "African-American pride) is also OK, because both terms encapsulate a series of ethnic traits, history, and NOT INSIGNIFICANTLY, struggle. "White" has none of this, so white pride is not OK.

For instance: everybody knows the first modern black American baseball player was Jackie Robinson. We are proud of his achievements as an American, and as a black American. But who was the first white American baseball player? That's not something most people know, or care about, because there was no rule restricting baseball for whites. So at least part of this discussion, and part of ethnic pride, is based on minority struggle. 
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I agree that your answer is complicated.  

Have you considered that by holding one group, and one group only, to a different standard than you hold all other groups you may be expressing the racism that you claim to despise and you may be causing resentment that fuels the racial animosity you claim to want to alleviate?

 
Eephus said:
Everybody has a lot to answer for but honest self-assessment <> apologizing.
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At the level of the individual, I agree totally.

But expecting an individual to speak for an entire societal group? And putting that individual on the spot for a wrong he/she had no part in? That is wrong, IMHO.

Shooting the bull with an African-American co-worker at the office: "Why are you all gunning each other down in Chicago?" Wrong, IMHO.

To an Italian-American: "All of you all are really in the Mob, aren't you?" Wrong.

And so on.

 
Doug B said:
There's not a lot of apologizing out there, you're right. But it's not hard to find people obliquely asking for apologies (call for reparations fall under this umbrella, IMHO). Once again -- not pervasive in society, but it's a mindset that is out there.
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When Japanese-Americans asked for reparations after internment, were they asking people to apologize for being white?

 
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Gary Coal Man said:
I agree that your answer is complicated.  

Have you considered that by holding one group, and one group only, to a different standard than you hold all other groups you may be expressing the racism that you claim to despise and you may be causing resentment that fuels the racial animosity you claim to want to alleviate?
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Yes. I've considered it, but I reject it. 

 


What we call "whiteness" is a set of genetically recessive traits.  Meaning, after enough generations, whiteness will cease to exist.  Are you so proud of whiteness that you think people should avoid reproduction with others that don't share these recessive traits in order to preserve whiteness?  If not now, when?

 
pantagrapher said:
When Japanese-Americans asked for reparations after internment, were they asking people to apologize for being white?
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No they were asking the US Government to apologize for violating their constitutional rights. 

My mother was interned and married a white man.

 
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