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Palestine (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ren hoek
- Start date
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Yes.
So they were not government actors and were engaged in a campaign of murdering civilians in a massacre in order to further a political agenda. How is that not terrorism?
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timschochet
Footballguy
Because from what I understand, the circumstances were more confusion and some individual soldiers overreacting to what they thought was provocation- that’s why I compared it to My Lai. It wasn’t premeditated. There was no “campaign of murdering civilians”, so far as we know or history records.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
They detonated bombs in cafes and on trains and killed people.
Example: June 19, 1938, 9 men, 6 women and 3 children killed by a bomb thrown into a market square in Haifa.
Are you suggesting that was a military target?
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timschochet
Footballguy
The Irgun did? Where did you read this? Other than the King David Hotel (military headquarters for the British) I’m not aware of bombs in cafes and trains.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
There’s an Irgun Wikipedia page, man. It’s not like this is a secret. Churchill called them terrorists.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Two British constables and eleven Arabs killed, 42 Arabs wounded when an Irgun member throws a bomb from a taxi in Jerusalem.
http://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1947/12/30/104398952.html?pageNumber=1
http://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1947/12/30/104398952.html?pageNumber=1
timschochet
Footballguy
I know what Churchill said. And I’m not a fan. The modern day Likud party goes back to the Irgun through Menachim Begin.
But again, I liken them more to the Viet Cong or the French Underground than I do modern terrorists. Yes there were bombs, but the purpose was to make things untenable for the occupying power (the British), not to cause civilian terror. Civilians did die as a result, so the distinction is a fine one but it’s there.
Churchill was close friends with Lord Moyne who the Irgun assassinated, so his reaction was understandable. But remember that he because friendly with Michael Collins. I firmly believe that if Churchill has been confronted with a group like Hamas he would have made the same moral distinction between them and the Irgun that I have.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
So you were aware of the hundreds of civilians killed by bombs in cafes, trains, buses, and marketplaces, you just were asking what I was talking about to see what I responded with?
timschochet
Footballguy
I wasn’t aware of hundreds of civilians killed, no. I knew that some were killed, yes.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Does it make you reconsider your views on the organization? Or your views other terrorist organizations who claim to be trying to get Western powers to simply leave them alone?
timschochet
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Because their targets were military. Civilians were a casualty of that.
Its the same distinction I draw between terrorist acts by ISIS and our drone attacks. Or the bombings carried out by guys like John McCain. I understand that others see no distinction and I can respect that POV. But I don’t agree with it.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Their targets were not all (or even primarily for multi-year stretches) military. Bombing cafes isn’t taking on military targets.
Short Corner
Footballguy
So all the bombs going off in markets were actually targeting military personnel and civilian casualties just happen to be collateral damage.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Setting off several bombs in the market in Haifa killing only civilians was apparently an attack on the British military. Very sneaky.
timschochet
Footballguy
That is my understanding. They were targeting soldiers in each instance. The French Underground did the same against Wehrmacht soldiers in cafes.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
“We have brilliantly targeted the Western invading army by using a mine in a movie house.”
Henry Ford
Footballguy
They killed only Arabs in vegetable markets.
You didn’t even know about these attacks last night but now you believe they’re targeting military?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
How about the shooting sprees? Like, how did they go on coordinated shooting spree attacks and only kill dozens of Arabs and no British military if the military were the target?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
(Hint: these were collective punishments against Arabs for the Arab uprising, not an attempt to expel the British)
timschochet
Footballguy
I knew about the attacks, not about the number of casualties. Also I had forgotten about the attacks carried out in 1936-39 (during the Arab Uprising) though I think they were largely by the Stern Group, an offshoot of Irgun.
Whatever. Let’s cut to the chase and end this. I don’t want to be in the position of defending this organization; had I been around then I certainly would have condemned them. I make a moral distinction between them and modern day terrorists, but it’s a pretty slim one. Nonetheless I make it and others don’t. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
timschochet
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
Good grief man. What other state can massmurder and terrorize protesters, perishing in an enclosure with no access to basic human necessities, using the most advanced weaponry in the world, and still somehow be the victim.
Israel has all the control, all the guns, all the money, all the resources, all the US' favor, all the power. And they are using it to ethnically cleanse a civilian population for being the wrong race. To pretend that it's some sort of symmetrical both sides thing when it couldn't be more starkly lopsided at this point is an absolute joke.
Israel has all the control, all the guns, all the money, all the resources, all the US' favor, all the power. And they are using it to ethnically cleanse a civilian population for being the wrong race. To pretend that it's some sort of symmetrical both sides thing when it couldn't be more starkly lopsided at this point is an absolute joke.
Sand
Footballguy
I don't think you can stop blockading Gaza, when the predictable result is going to be a huge surge of attacks on Israeli civilians. Much better if the Egypt border was taken down and they were invited to assimilate with a like culture, rather than one that the governmental entities have publicly pronounced that they should exterminate.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Benjamin Netanyahu @RealNetanyahu
Happy #September11 America! As I’ve said in the past, this day was good for Israel. #NeverForget
https://www.haaretz.com/1.4970678
Happy #September11 America! As I’ve said in the past, this day was good for Israel. #NeverForget
https://www.haaretz.com/1.4970678
Why is it that when there is an attack in Israel it is reported that x amount of people were killed, but when there is an attack in Gaza the specific ages of the victims is emphasized?
Dedfin
Footballguy
Dedfin
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
That's not historically true, at least not in the US. Usually Israeli casualties are treated with dignity and humanity, while Palestinian casualties become sanitized stats.
https://youtu.be/GSXFNSvInIE?t=42m7s
The human condition doesn't really apply to Palestinians. In any case, I think citing the age/demographic of victims is sensible news reporting, regardless of which side the casualty is on.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Dena Takruri @Dena
My new doc from Palestine is out. I was haunted by what I saw and heard in Nabi Saleh, home to Palestinian teen icon Ahed Tamimi. Night raids, child arrests & open fire from Israeli forces are just the tip of the iceberg of this military occupation. WATCH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=9FlrrcAjBr4
My new doc from Palestine is out. I was haunted by what I saw and heard in Nabi Saleh, home to Palestinian teen icon Ahed Tamimi. Night raids, child arrests & open fire from Israeli forces are just the tip of the iceberg of this military occupation. WATCH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=9FlrrcAjBr4
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I’m sure the President will be outraged that someone who refused to be deported will be held in custody while appealing that deportation.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Electronic Intifada has acquired the censored Al Jazeera documentary about the Israel lobby in the US. The first two episodes of four are available here:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wisw0
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wisw0
ren hoek
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/maannewsagency/status/1060988144093409283?s=21
Israeli forces detain 8-year-old Palestinian child near Hebron
Israeli forces detain 8-year-old Palestinian child near Hebron
ren hoek
Footballguy
“Banned from redress”
That was the argument made by the court as it rejected a case filed on behalf of a boy in Gaza who was left quadriplegic after Israeli forces opened fire on him in November 2014.
With the court upholding a 2012 law barring residents of an “enemy entity” from receiving compensation, all Palestinians in Gaza “are now banned from redress and remedy in Israel, regardless of the circumstances and the severity of the injury or damages claimed,” according to the rights groups Al Mezan and Adalah.
The new law “introduced criteria that are nearly impossible to meet for victims from Gaza,” leaving Palestinians in Gaza who suffered injury or damage during military operations ineligible to seek compensation. A narrow window of time in which Gaza residents initiate claims in Israel – at significant financial cost – and other restraints effectively bar anyone there from seeking justice.
But even in the case of the child represented by Adalah and Al Mezan, “who was shot in the absence of military activity and his family complied with all of the … stringent criteria,” the state argued that the boy was ineligible for compensation with “the simple justification that he is a resident of Gaza.”
According to the rights groups, “With this message, Israel declared that it absolves itself from the responsibilities, as a state, to investigate, deter, and take responsibility for violations by its armed and security forces.”
The ruling “grants comprehensive immunity to the Israeli military and the state for illegal, reprehensible, and even criminal actions” in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
With no way to fulfill their right to effective legal remedy from Israel, the occupying power, “the only legal options currently available to Palestinians in Gaza are limited to international judicial mechanisms,” Adalah and Al Mezan state.
The International Criminal Court’s chief prosecutor has warned Israeli leaders that the shooting of unarmed Palestinians along the Gaza boundary could be considered a crime under international law within the court’s jurisdiction.
Palestinian and international nongovernmental organizations have called on the International Criminal Court to “urgently” open an investigation into alleged Israeli war crimes.
The situation in Palestine has been under preliminary examination by the prosecutor’s office since 2015.
Israel has injured 24,000 Gaza protesters
That was the argument made by the court as it rejected a case filed on behalf of a boy in Gaza who was left quadriplegic after Israeli forces opened fire on him in November 2014.
With the court upholding a 2012 law barring residents of an “enemy entity” from receiving compensation, all Palestinians in Gaza “are now banned from redress and remedy in Israel, regardless of the circumstances and the severity of the injury or damages claimed,” according to the rights groups Al Mezan and Adalah.
The new law “introduced criteria that are nearly impossible to meet for victims from Gaza,” leaving Palestinians in Gaza who suffered injury or damage during military operations ineligible to seek compensation. A narrow window of time in which Gaza residents initiate claims in Israel – at significant financial cost – and other restraints effectively bar anyone there from seeking justice.
But even in the case of the child represented by Adalah and Al Mezan, “who was shot in the absence of military activity and his family complied with all of the … stringent criteria,” the state argued that the boy was ineligible for compensation with “the simple justification that he is a resident of Gaza.”
According to the rights groups, “With this message, Israel declared that it absolves itself from the responsibilities, as a state, to investigate, deter, and take responsibility for violations by its armed and security forces.”
The ruling “grants comprehensive immunity to the Israeli military and the state for illegal, reprehensible, and even criminal actions” in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
With no way to fulfill their right to effective legal remedy from Israel, the occupying power, “the only legal options currently available to Palestinians in Gaza are limited to international judicial mechanisms,” Adalah and Al Mezan state.
The International Criminal Court’s chief prosecutor has warned Israeli leaders that the shooting of unarmed Palestinians along the Gaza boundary could be considered a crime under international law within the court’s jurisdiction.
Palestinian and international nongovernmental organizations have called on the International Criminal Court to “urgently” open an investigation into alleged Israeli war crimes.
The situation in Palestine has been under preliminary examination by the prosecutor’s office since 2015.
Israel has injured 24,000 Gaza protesters
ren hoek
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
proteus126
Footballguy
He advocated for a "free Palestine from the river to the sea". That's an old PLO slogan, and is generally associated with groups advocating the destruction of Israel, or at least Palestinians who reject compromise with Israel.
Obviously he was fully aware of the freight that phrase carries - he is not stupid. He tried to nuance it after the fact, claiming he meant equal rights from river to sea. Whatever. CNN is free to react as they wish.
ren hoek
Footballguy
The only things MLH was advocating in that speech were peace and equality. If CNN would rather clutch pearls over a phrase as innocuous as ‘river to sea’ than a genocidal assault against people for being the wrong race, I guess that’s their right.
proteus126
Footballguy
CNN are turds, admittedly.
Using that particular phrasing was risky. It certainly means something very specific to both Israeli and Palestinian.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The words "blood and soil" are pretty innocuous sounding. If he'd used those, I'd want him off TV, too.
The Football Freak
Footballguy
The most salient point to me was they need to be “two groups in therapy, each with equal grievances.” That is the right tone, imo, and I certainly agree with that point. I don’t see any progress on the horizon until Netanyahu is out of office, though.
His point on the treatment of African immigrants in Israel is strong, too.
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