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***Official*** Too Much Government Force Thread - List And Discuss Both Left and Right Abuses In Here (1 Viewer)

rockaction

Footballguy
Fed up with asset forfeiture? How about eminent domain? The regulatory state and administrative justice got you down? Overzealous district attorneys and made-up evidence? Are you pissed off over the abuse of the RICO Act? How about a good case of CPS or DCF overreach? This is the non-partisan thread for you. I'm hoping that inside this thread we can catalogue a list of federal, state, and municipal abuses of force, coming from both from the left and the right. 

 
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I'm hoping that inside this thread we can catalogue a list of federal, state, and municipal abuses of force, coming from both from the left and the right. 
Denying cities funds they have a right to to force them to take on policies they don't want to punish them for sanctuary laws is the most egregious anti-federalist regulatory overreach in American history.

 
Denying cities funds they have a right to to force them to take on policies they don't want to punish them for sanctuary laws is the most egregious anti-federalist regulatory overreach in American history.
Depends if sanctuary laws run afoul of federal precedence -- a precedent-based thing for sure, an issue of which I am unaware.

 
Gerrymandering 

Politicians who won't negotiate across the aisle

Special intrest influence via "campaign donations"

Holding up judiciary and other appointments due to politics and not whether the person is qualified

Unfair tax codes with too many loopholes

Drug regulation overreach

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Denying cities funds they have a right to to force them to take on policies they don't want to punish them for sanctuary laws is the most egregious anti-federalist regulatory overreach in American history.
55 mph speed limit

21 year-old drinking age

 
Oh, c'mon, can't we work up any good righteousness? Like Sessions arguing to increase asset forfeiture -- didn't he do that? What was the recent prosecutorial immunity case everybody was talking about? Surely most of us can get together and agree on some sort of accountability for prosecutors that knowingly lie or fake evidence to get convictions and jail time for innocents. 

 
Well if we're just going to listen to the USSC this will be a short discussion.
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I'm just providing a jumping off point for where it might be unconstitutional per text or originalism. It helps to know why they ruled and then criticize the ruling based on the structure of the Constitution, its text, its original understanding, or case precedent.

 
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I'm just providing a jumping off point for where it might be unconstitutional per text or originalism. It helps to know why they ruled and then criticize the ruling based on the structure of the Constitution, its text, its original understanding, or case precedent.
Ok but the ruling is ridiculous:

"The condition must not be coercive."

That's hilarious, the whole point is to be coercive.

 
This is a good read about the Dole case. 

I read the opinion, and noted that there were almost no citations that occurred prior to 1936. 

Once again, FDR and I have a fight about the Constitution.  

 
Are we talking specifically in terms of legality in the US, or whether we think theoretically that there is too much government overreach in a certain area?

 
I'm not even a woman, but the constant need to make laws that restrict abortion access is so annoying. 

Especially considering these are the same people (republicans) that defund things like Medicaid, after school programs and resources for disabled children. 

A friend of mine who works in politics said that often times these law makers are paid by pro-life groups to make these ridiculous laws just to "keep the conversation going." Recently, Ohio wanted to ban abortions after 6 weeks. The law was vetoed, however. In Mississippi a law that banned all abortion regardless of incest, rape or danger to the mother had to be struck down by a judge a couple years ago. 

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but why else propose such terrible legislation?

 
Are we talking specifically in terms of legality in the US, or whether we think theoretically that there is too much government overreach in a certain area?
I think I'm asking for either. Something that traditionally was left up to people that isn't any longer -- or something that federal government once left up to localities. Something that really consolidates power and force w/in a state apparatus.

 
It took you 3 posts to move the goal posts.  Well done.
Force is generally shorthand for enforcement, or the means by which a policy is enacted. The pardon power, vested pretty explicitly via the Constitution to the executive branch doesn't sound like enforcement overstep. It sounds right in keeping with our history. But you're just a history teacher. You can't possibly be expected to know that.

 
🤔 People are still free to comment. Qualified immunity for police officers would be a good place to start, one thinks. I'd already brought up immunity for prosecutors and the like. 

The federalism issues brought about by COVID would also seem to be up for grabs. Is Georgia violating a municipal right by exercising its supremacy of police power w/r/t masks?

Whole ton of things here waiting to be discussed.  But you can all discuss them. This thread was 2017. I just get suspended when I'm in here now. 

 
I think somewhere in here there should be a revisiting of the debate over the creation of the DHS in 2001. The idea was to coordinate specialized for the better defense against terrorism. What's going on right now looks like a simulation from what could have been claimed as the worst possible scenario.

It's worth noting that the discussion prior to now - based on history for sure - was the use of federal funds to coerce states to raise drinking ages. That's where we were.

I suppose better past cases given what is going on now was the destruction of the Bonus Army by McCarthy's forces under Hoover and maybe Korematsu and the concentration system under Roosevelt. Maybe the insurrection and sedition acts behavior under Wilson. These would be comps, maybe. - It is absolute constitutional mayhem going on right now.

 
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The Constitution requires a distinction between what is truly national and what is truly local, and there is no better example of the police power, which the Founders undeniably left reposed in the States and denied the central Government, than the suppression of violent crime and vindication of its victims. Congress therefore may not regulate noneconomic, violent criminal conduct based solely on the conduct's aggregate effect on interstate commerce.
REHQUIST, 2000

- What the President is doing is ILL :censored: EGAL.

 
I think somewhere in here there should be a revisiting of the debate over the creation of the DHS in 2001. The idea was to coordinate specialized for the better defense against terrorism. What's going on right now looks like a simulation from what could have been claimed as the worst possible scenario.

It's worth noting that the discussion prior to now - based on history for sure - was the use of federal funds to coerce states to raise drinking ages. That's where we were.

I suppose better past cases given what is going on now was the destruction of the Bonus Army by McCarthy's forces under Hoover and maybe Korematsu and the concentration system under Roosevelt. Maybe the insurrection and sedition acts behavior under Wilson. These would be comps, maybe. - It is absolute constitutional mayhem going on right now.
DHS was a bad idea from the start. The potential abuses and illegality were obvious then, now we're seeing them play out. 

 
Does the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act, signed by Obama, give any loopholes for detaining American citizens?  
Abstractly, maybe. I don't know enough about it but I'm thinking if someone wanted to think Barr-thought yes I could see how using an EO to declare antifa a terrorist org would then allow a loophole avenue to drive a truck through to then detain citizens on that basis. I think Hedges got closest to that but left the question open because no one suing was actually "harmed." Well there are definitely people harmed now.

However I don't think that covers what is going on here, this is DHS, purely a domestic amalgam of enforcement services.

 
who would have thought we would be seeing the federal government surging agents into cities by the hundreds
I know I said I wouldn't comment in general, but color me stunned by that story. I hope there's way, way more to it than I've seen originally.

 
who would have thought we would be seeing the federal government surging agents into cities by the hundreds
The same people who saw surging protesters take over, loot, burn, assault and murder while the big cities sat by and not only let it happen, but condoned it ("It's going to be another summer of love").  In reality, it was easy to see.  You can't let criminality run amok without somebody getting involved.

 
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The same people who saw surging protesters take over, loot, burn, assault and murder while the big cities sat by and not only let it happen, but condoned it ("It's going to be another summer of love").  In reality, it was easy to see.  You can't let criminality run amok without somebody getting involved.
That's just so out of tune this is the only response you will get.

 
That's just so out of tune this is the only response you will get.
I'm calling :bs:  on that.  Ignoring the violence only makes my point stronger and makes you look a bit delusional.  You're better than that, no?

But, I suppose, par for the course in here.  When someone doesn't agree with me, then flee!  Or just demonize them.

 
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Homeland Security Was Destined to Become a Secret Police Force

**********

........

The rationale for the creation of the D.H.S., as laid out by the George W. Bush Administration, was that the knowledge, skills, and capabilities that could have stopped the 9/11 attacks were spread out among many government agencies, with no single body in charge of fighting terrorism. The proposal for creating the department presented hypothetical examples of failures to coördinate among different agencies. When a ship sailed into U.S. waters, for instance, the Coast Guard had the power to stop it for inspection, but it was up to the Immigration and Naturalization Service to deal with the people on board, and up to Customs and Border Protection or the Department of Agriculture to stop any dangerous or illegal cargo. The examples made D.H.S. seem like something that should exist. That logic held, though, only if you thought about travel, immigration, and trade primarily as security concerns. There are countries that think like that. I grew up in one—it was called the Soviet Union, and it had an agency, the Committee for State Security (K.G.B.), which had its tentacles in every area of society.

The creation of the D.H.S. marked a shift in the way that Americans think and talk about the country, and about people. Four years ago, in an essay for the Times Magazine, the journalist James Traub traced the appearance and evolution of the word “homeland” in American language. “The rise of ‘homeland’ … tracks the rise of the national sense of vulnerability,” Traub wrote. “As we use it now, ‘homeland’ means ‘the country insofar as it is endangered.’ ” The word had surfaced in 1997, in a Pentagon report warning that the singular threat to U.S. security, which the Soviet Union once posed, had been replaced by a diffuse threat from different sources. By 2001, “homeland” had sudden traction—it was a word that had found its meaning. By the time Traub was writing, in 2016, all of the contenders for the Republican nomination for President—a group in which Donald Trump may have still seemed an outlier—were trafficking in fear for the land. “Homeland” is also a nativist term: it refers to the country where you were born, or else it comes with the qualifier “adopted,” which suggests that your claim to the homeland is contingent. (Sure enough, under Trump, the federal government has moved toward seeing naturalized citizenship as revocable.)

“Homeland” is an anxious, combative word: it denotes a place under assault, in need of aggressive defense from shape-shifting dangers. The original proposal for the D.H.S. described the agency as “a new government structure to protect against invisible enemies that can strike with a wide variety of weapons”; one hypothetical example of an invisible enemy was “a non-citizen that intends to enter our nation and attack one of our chemical facilities.” The nation used to protect itself against other nations and their hostile military forces, but now it had to fear individuals. This is the premise on which secret police forces are built. Their stated purpose is to find danger where normal human activity appears to be taking place. The D.H.S. began with mobilizing against the foreign-born, via Immigration and Customs Enforcement (which replaced the Immigration and Naturalization Service). The logic of the secret police, however, dictates that it perpetually has to look in new places for threats.

When Bush signed the Homeland Security Act, in November of 2002, bringing the D.H.S. into existence, he touted it as “the most extensive reorganization of the federal government since Harry Truman signed the National Security Act,” and spoke of “ruthless killers who move and plot in shadows.” He promised, “We’re on the hunt. One person at a time.” Bush’s words echoed the promise that fuelled Vladimir Putin’s rise in Russia. In a speech that brought him to sudden prominence, in 1999, the former K.G.B. colonel promised to “hunt down” terrorists and “snuff them out in the outhouse,” if that’s where they happened to be found. The secret police, even when it looks and appears to act like an army, always has a single individual as its target. Its goal is to make a person, alone, face the might of the state.

....As we learn more about what is happening in Portland—as footage of federal troops waging war on protesters floods social media, and as the President threatens to send his foot soldiers to other large cities—we are watching the perfect and perhaps inevitable combination of a domestic-security superagency and a President who rejects all mechanisms of accountability, including the Senate confirmation process. What we are also seeing is a perfect storm of fear: the legacy of fear cultivated in the wake of 9/11, and the fear that Trump campaigned on in 2016 and continues to campaign on now.

****************

 
I sincerely hope that if the Dems take back all 3 branches that they eliminate the DHS. 2001 me would have said what is happening now was always possible but to be perfectly honest it's shocking seeing that come to fruition. This is an antidemocratic/antirepublican development that we cannot tolerate any further.

 
I sincerely hope that if the Dems take back all 3 branches that they eliminate the DHS. 2001 me would have said what is happening now was always possible but to be perfectly honest it's shocking seeing that come to fruition. This is an antidemocratic/antirepublican development that we cannot tolerate any further.
One of the key takeaways from this administration is that from now on, every time somebody proposes some new government agency, regulatory framework, or other expansion of federal power, we should ask ourselves if we would want Donald Trump to have this authority.  

 
One of the key takeaways from this administration is that from now on, every time somebody proposes some new government agency, regulatory framework, or other expansion of federal power, we should ask ourselves if we would want Donald Trump to have this authority.  
That seems like a one-way ratchet in favor of small government, which is I know your personal preference, but I don't think it's fair to judge what all Presidents would do based on what our worst President would do.   

 
That seems like a one-way ratchet in favor of small government, which is I know your personal preference, but I don't think it's fair to judge what all Presidents would do based on what our worst President would do.   
Unfortunately that’s where we are. There are a number of loopholes in our government that have been exposed over the last 3.5. 

 
I think this issue in regards to BLM is where the Right (Trump)really lost their best ability to  push change.  If Conservatives who, during the Obama years, were preaching to the high heavens about the horrors of governmental encroachment in regards to personal freedoms stood with BLM/protesters in a moment of solidarity for something that they claimed they cared about....it really could have been a transformative moment in our society.  Instead they heard red meat phrases from their media sources that kept them on their plantation and in the pocket of the behind the scenes power brokers that run the Right. Shame really.  It could have been big.    

 
One of the key takeaways from this administration is that from now on, every time somebody proposes some new government agency, regulatory framework, or other expansion of federal power, we should ask ourselves if we would want Donald Trump to have this authority.  
That seems like a one-way ratchet in favor of small government, which is I know your personal preference, but I don't think it's fair to judge what all Presidents would do based on what our worst President would do. 
It seems like a one-way ratchet in favor of limitations to the executive branch.  IK didn't limit his scope to the executive branch, but I think that could be implied by virtue of the "want DJT to have this authority" phrasing.

 

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