Nice list but a lot of speculations in there.
Dezbelief said:
That's not been updated yet - Preston Brown in BUF, no rookies, etc.Young 8 said:Nice list but a lot of speculations in there.
I see Preston as listed in Cincy and lots of rookies.That's not been updated yet - Preston Brown in BUF, no rookies, etc.
Both top rookies listed on their teams.That's not been updated yet - Preston Brown in BUF, no rookies, etc.
Hmm, I'm getting a Google Docs error on the main page, followed the list just above the table which is to 2017 version. Wonder why I can't see the main import?
That jumped out at me too.Re: Pittsburgh
There is no way that TJ Watt wont be a 100% 3-down linebacker in Pittsburgh. None.
And there is serious doubt that they want Vince Williams to be a 3-down backer, but that has a lot to do with John Bostic and the safeties like Burnett and Edmunds.
I think one of these veterans hanging out there are going to eventually sign with the Steelers. I mean, after Shazier got injured last year they gave a guy they literally signed off the street the same workload they assigned Williams. I don't know who will ultimately eat into his snap count, but I expect the Steelers to experiment with different personnel groupings to see if something will stick. If nothing does then they will ride with him in December and January again and hope for the best.When Bostic is hurt by week 3, will Williams be back into a 3 down role?
The Man With No Name said:I would bet a bundle that Bostic isn't fantasy relevant most of the season, regardless of health
I’ll respectfully disagree. There’s no way the green dot doesn’t go to a mlb/wlb/ilb and neither safety will be ready for that job in year one. Only way one of VW, mat, bostic isn’t three downs is if they sign Mychal Kendricks and as of today the Steelers and colts are the ones that appear the most interested. Cowboys as well.Regardless of what Colbert may be saying in an OTA puff piece or two, I'd expect there is just about no way Pittsburgh is looking at Tyler Matakevich as an every down player. I think they know exactly what they have in him already: He's extremely limited in coverage, and has been taken advantage of in that regard in his limited playing time. Yeah, he's good on teams and he plays his a$$ off, buuuut.....yeah. Unless guys get hurt, I'd expect that he's exactly what he already is.....a backup ILB, mostly for first and second down work, who will be splitting snaps with someone (probably a couple someones).
I don't see Bostic as anything more than a 2-down guy either. He's good against the run, suspect against the pass. Great. Stopping the run is useful, sure, but having that be your only trick in today's NFL pretty much makes a guy a dinosaur. "Earl Holmes 2.0" doesn't exactly pump my 'nads.
Vince Williams is a pretty good interior blitzer, which is a nice thing to have and something the Steelers like to do a pretty decent bit, but is limited in coverage too (you can see a pattern forming here, I'm sure, and it's potentially a really big problem for the Steelers).
Add on to all that the following two points: 1. The Steelers drafted a couple of bigger, faster safeties whose games are more akin to "athletic LBs" than "run-of-the-mill DBs", and 2. They've been playing a larger percentage of "subs as the base package" the last few years (particularly Nickel or some kind of 4-2-5 with Watt or Dupree/both lining up with hands on the ground). Taking that in to account, we can likely start reading the tea leaves at least a bit.
What all those signs point to from my POV is that none of those three ILBs are likely to be 3-down players for the Steelers at all, unless Pittsburgh suffers a host of injuries. They will rotate based on down/distance/etc. Clear running situations probably will be Williams and one of Bostic/Matakevich. If they continue to pursue running a lot of subs and don't feel like any of their ILBs are up to snuff in coverage I am not going to be surprised at all to see them running out those young Safeties as at least one of the LBs in those packages, likely with Williams as the other guy inside to be accounted for on the blitz, or with Watt moving toward the middle of the field standing up with Hargraves/et al coming in on the line.
The only Steeler LB who I think is guaranteed to be a 3-down guy right now is Watt, but given how he was utilized in the scheme (so far, anyway) he probably isn't very useful outside of big play scoring. For the inside guys, if I had to own one then Williams is likely still the guy I'd target. He will probably have the highest snap count among the inside guys (whatever that amounts to), most of them at the Buck, and can be a useful blitzer.
Of course they won't be giving the green dot to a rookie part-timer. I never even implied that.I’ll respectfully disagree. There’s no way the green dot doesn’t go to a mlb/wlb/ilb and neither safety will be ready for that job in year one. Only way one of VW, mat, bostic isn’t three downs is if they sign Mychal Kendricks and as of today the Steelers and colts are the ones that appear the most interested. Cowboys as well.
Not yet, no.Are we sure the Steelers didn't draft Edmunds to be a linebacker?
Quoted from you above -Of course they won't be giving the green dot to a rookie part-timer. I never even implied that.
They'll give it to the guy at ILB who is on the field the for most of the snaps. That is likely going to be Williams. That does not mean that he will play every single snap on defense though
Also from the same thread...."This is not scientific at all. Made it in 2 mins."Go to the tweet and re-size to 250% so see lengthy list.
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Players I consider 3-down inside LBs in green.
@TomDegenerate 20h20 hours ago
LBs drafted in a recent startup. Players I consider 3-down inside LBs in green. Ones with potential to do that in 2018 in orange. The position is ridiculously deep. You can wait so much longer than you think you can.
Nope, Kyzir White, ChargersWasn't it the Steelers that announced a draft pick as LB when they selected him despite being a S in college?
That list is a good starting point. I have a few disagreements, will post later.Go to the tweet and re-size to 250% so see lengthy list.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Players I consider 3-down inside LBs in green.
@TomDegenerate 20h20 hours ago
LBs drafted in a recent startup. Players I consider 3-down inside LBs in green. Ones with potential to do that in 2018 in orange. The position is ridiculously deep. You can wait so much longer than you think you can.
I will post mineThat list is a good starting point. I have a few disagreements, will post later.
I think Schobert is overrated for different reasons. The Browns traded humongous space-eating NT Danny Shelton to NE. Shelton 'covered' smaller LBers like Schobert and Kirksey to allow them to attack gaps unmolested. Add, SS Jabrll Peppers won't be lined up 35 yards off the LOS playing 'angel', he will be up in the box stealing tackles.Other reaches. Joe Schobert with Collins back makes him more of a 4 guy to me. Won’t see nearly as many snaps as Collins and Kirksey play more
Jordan Hicks scares me coming off injury for sure. Again not sure on talent.
Underrated
Trevathon. He puts up numbers and even with Freeman, should put up numbers with Smith instead. I like him over quite a few guys in front.
collins. 41st as bottom 3rd tier too low. Like him in tier 2.
Foster. Now out of trouble, he should be in tier 2. Still worried about personality and desire
“He already had immaturity, issues with life skills. This is the same guy,” said an evaluator for the team after Foster was sent home from Indianapolis. “We’re not in the market.”
I mean, this is said too often, but they literally can't be worse. But I still have doubts about how much better this team will be. The only significant change on defense is Jabrill moving to where he belonged all along and Randall roaming deep. Which is noteworthy, but could also lead to Schobert being subpackaged out to more of a 75-80% role.Heck I think the CLE LBs might have less chances because team going to be lot better
I was going to mention game scripts but their was too much to unpack but you are pulling me into it.I mean, this is said too often, but they literally can't be worse. But I still have doubts about how much better this team will be. The only significant change on defense is Jabrill moving to where he belonged all along and Randall roaming deep. Which is noteworthy, but could also lead to Schobert being subpackaged out to more of a 75-80% role.
There are some new names, but outside of Ward they aren't significantly different than the guys that were here before. More speed, but less reliable/consistent. Both units present problems; they're just different problems. And expecting Ward to be a cornerstone year one is a recipe for disappointment. It'd be cool if he develops into one, but that's a better topic for a year from now. Since Shelton wasn't really replaced I have my eyebrow raised about that unit too, but we're already too far away from 3 down LB's and that only extends it further.I was going to mention game scripts but their was too much to unpack but you are pulling me into it.
Jabrill isn't the only change on defense.
Defensively their is a near total renovated defensive backfield with three of the four players being changed over. I anticipate Jabrill will be playing as a box safety to the point he will look like a totally different player. I'm sold on Denzel already. I think Damarius Randall is going to take chances and at times get burned but make plenty of plays at FS. I'm not so sure about T.J. Carrie at this time. He graded out really high from PFF but I need to see him and how all of those moving parts work together.
To me, it is the unit is completely different. Their are other things to note on defense and don't get me started about the changes on offense and that is why I didn't bother to mention game scripts when speaking of Joe Schobert. Everything is connected and the Browns 'probably' have more parts in motion than any other NFL team at this point.
I just disagree with so much I have to respond.There are some new names, but outside of Ward they aren't significantly different than the guys that were here before. More speed, but less reliable/consistent. Both units present problems; they're just different problems. And expecting Ward to be a cornerstone year one is a recipe for disappointment. It'd be cool if he develops into one, but that's a better topic for a year from now. Since Shelton wasn't really replaced I have my eyebrow raised about that unit too, but we're already too far away from 3 down LB's and that only extends it further.
I think there's some legitimacy to the game script narrative impacting Schobert's usage, but with so many new parts to this offense I think it's more something to keep in mind for later in the season than worry about in Sep/Oct. It's going to take time for the offense to find its footing, if it does, so I'd expect plenty of playing-from-behind game scripts - at least early on anyway. Especially if Williams' defensive scheme is anywhere near as incompetent as last year's version.
Dorsey obviously felt the secondary was an issue considering the FA dollars and draft capital.Here is the BY FAR, TOO EARLY COMPARISON: The Browns have not had such a physically talented young cornerback as Ward since the best days of Joe Haden. It's also worth mentioning Haden didn't even start until midway through his 2010 rookie season. And he had some rocky moments that year before putting together a pair of Pro Bowl seasons.
Ward ran a 4.32 in the 40-yard dash, the fastest of any defensive player at the 2018 NFL Combine. The Nordonia product drew praise from the coaches on one play where Gordon faked him and ran past Ward for a while -- but Ward sprinted back and caught up with Gordon. There was no pass thrown in that direction. What pleased the coaches was how quickly Ward recovered and got back into the play.
....Ward will play a lot. It's obvious Dorsey had little regard for the previous secondary. I was told Dorsey thought most of the players were very slow.
If he's asked to play one-on-one against Antonio Brown, AJ Green, Nuk, etc. Yes. Yes, I do. If he's asked to play one-on-one against JuJu, John Ross, and Will Fuller. No. No, I do not.I just disagree with so much I have to respond.
I like Randall a lot. He was a first round CB and he is uber athletic. He was a loose cannon in more ways than one so DC Williams making him the 'angel' is a recipe to focus him to one specific role and negate his desire to free lance. The team is also testing BBC at FS. They are going more athletic so I think Williams will be positioning the FS 'closer' to the LOS than where he had Peppers lined up last year.
As I said, I need to see T.J. Carrie before saying anything but it looks like Carrie is slotted for one starting CB slot and that, at this time Denzel is not going to start but that E.J. Gaines will at early in the season. E.J. is reportedly pretty good but gets injured a lot.
I liked McCourty but he was slow and they didn't play man coverage. Denzel is going to allow him to play press. You think it will be a disaster but I think he's going to be really good after getting over some initial rookie CB bumps that everyone goes through. Early reports are good on Denzel. This morning Pluto joined the long line of beat reporters gushing over Denzel.
Dorsey obviously felt the secondary was an issue considering the FA dollars and draft capital.
I anticipate the secondary to have the potential to make the biggest turn around since individual performances are based so much on pure athleticism and speed.
I think he's going to be good, really good. Joe Thomas lost plenty of battles to T-Suggs but that didn't make him a disaster. Denzel is going to be good, really good. Embrace it.If he's asked to play one-on-one against Antonio Brown, AJ Green, Nuk, etc. Yes. Yes, I do. If he's asked to play one-on-one against JuJu, John Ross, and Will Fuller. No. No, I do not.
All I'll say about Carrie is...be careful what you wish for...and hope Gaines stays healthy.
Cool, how does that relate to 3 down LB's?I think he's going to be good, really good. Joe Thomas lost plenty of battles to T-Suggs but that didn't make him a disaster. Denzel is going to be good, really good. Embrace it.
I don't have a clue about T.J. Carrie so I don't know what you're hinting at. I have to see him.
I am high on Randall.
This is a complete overhaul of the secondary IMHO. The only returning starting player is Peppers and he's playing a new position and has a new role.
Really? You make specific statements and asked me about that, I respond and then you ask why I didn't respond to the thread?Cool, how does that relate to 3 down LB's?
I didn't ask you anything. I did mention this group has more speed, which you 'disagree with so much' then went on to talk about this group having more speed and not having a clue about TJ Carrie. So, you got that going for you.Really? You make specific statements and asked me about that, I respond and then you ask why I didn't respond to the thread?
I already covered Schobert. I'm done.
Very good point, and I agree, his feed is pretty great. He's actually got a solid IDP podcast (Read & React), there's another one (Edge Crushers) that's just painful.Also from the same thread...."This is not scientific at all. Made it in 2 mins."
Generally interesting though and someone who's idp opinions I like reading.
Carrie overperformed as a 6th round pick for OAK. His career is Oakland was pretty much him having OK/decent coverage, and making the tackle after the guy caught the ball.TJ Carrie.
Anyway I could get the sheet or the picture shown in the tweet? It's not working for meI will post mine
I can tell owners still get caught up in names. Maybe they drafted Mack as DE. Clowney, Judon, Chubb, Houston, Irvin and Watt take a huge nosedive unless really big play scoring. In 14 team league, they are #4 guys who are matchup guys only. In heavy tackle, they are pretty useless
Other reaches. Joe Schobert with Collins back makes him more of a 4 guy to me. Won’t see nearly as many snaps as Collins and Kirksey play more
i like Martinez but not at 6. In dynasty, he reminds me of Paul Worrilow. Probably good numbers but always looking around corner. Better 2 guy.
Jordan Hicks scares me coming off injury for sure. Again not sure on talent.
Vince Williams. In that tier 3 but I prefer him as a 4. Not sure how Pitt LB shake out but be weary of Kendricks
christian Jones. He is more like 70 guy. He is FA in my home league where over 100 guys rostered.
Underrated
Trevathon. He puts up numbers and even with Freeman, should put up numbers with Smith instead. I like him over quite a few guys in front.
collins. 41st as bottom 3rd tier too low. Like him in tier 2.
Foster. Now out of trouble, he should be in tier 2. Still worried about personality and desire
Macmillan. Not sure about injury but opp has him way higher.
Bynes. Not big on him but chance to be tier 4 LB there. Could do Dansby like numbers as Cards MLB has been good
i think overall, the top 2 tiers of LB is nice. Could live with combination of many guys
in my league, we start 56 guys and I think near end, it really drops off. Not sure I would be happy with Perryman, Denarrio Davis, Marshall and Whitehead as LB crew. So while you can wait, when the run gets going, don’t hesitate to go heavy as hate to start this. I know my home league, owners who waited seem to have some critical need cores. Puts them in a big hole.
Steelers ILB Tyler Matakevich is the early favorite to start opposite Vince Williams.Regardless of what Colbert may be saying in an OTA puff piece or two, I'd expect there is just about no way Pittsburgh is looking at Tyler Matakevich as an every down player. I think they know exactly what they have in him already: He's extremely limited in coverage, and has been taken advantage of in that regard in his limited playing time. Yeah, he's good on teams and he plays his a$$ off, buuuut.....yeah. Unless guys get hurt, I'd expect that he's exactly what he already is.....a backup ILB, mostly for first and second down work, who will be splitting snaps with someone (probably a couple someones).
I don't see Bostic as anything more than a 2-down guy either. He's good against the run, suspect against the pass. Great. Stopping the run is useful, sure, but having that be your only trick in today's NFL pretty much makes a guy a dinosaur. "Earl Holmes 2.0" doesn't exactly pump my 'nads.
Vince Williams is a pretty good interior blitzer, which is a nice thing to have and something the Steelers like to do a pretty decent bit, but is limited in coverage too (you can see a pattern forming here, I'm sure, and it's potentially a really big problem for the Steelers).
Add on to all that the following two points: 1. The Steelers drafted a couple of bigger, faster safeties whose games are more akin to "athletic LBs" than "run-of-the-mill DBs", and 2. They've been playing a larger percentage of "subs as the base package" the last few years (particularly Nickel or some kind of 4-2-5 with Watt or Dupree/both lining up with hands on the ground). Taking that in to account, we can likely start reading the tea leaves at least a bit.
What all those signs point to from my POV is that none of those three ILBs are likely to be 3-down players for the Steelers at all, unless Pittsburgh suffers a host of injuries. They will rotate based on down/distance/etc. Clear running situations probably will be Williams and one of Bostic/Matakevich. If they continue to pursue running a lot of subs and don't feel like any of their ILBs are up to snuff in coverage I am not going to be surprised at all to see them running out those young Safeties as at least one of the LBs in those packages, likely with Williams as the other guy inside to be accounted for on the blitz, or with Watt moving toward the middle of the field standing up with Hargraves/et al coming in on the line.
The only Steeler LB who I think is guaranteed to be a 3-down guy right now is Watt, but given how he was utilized in the scheme (so far, anyway) he probably isn't very useful outside of big play scoring. For the inside guys, if I had to own one then Williams is likely still the guy I'd target. He will probably have the highest snap count among the inside guys (whatever that amounts to), most of them at the Buck, and can be a useful blitzer.
And I'll respectfully disagree with that. This just isn't very likely at all. I doubt even Shazier would get that percentage of the snaps in a year of perfect health(he was on pace for just around 90% last year, same as the year before. The only recent Steeler LB to get to the 95% plateau with any regularity was Timmons). Williams himself was heavily involved a year ago, even before the Shazier injury, and still played only around 75% of the Steelers total defensive snaps. Dupree was the LB who was on the field the most, actually (over 81%) but he also lined up at DE.One of VW, Mat, or Bostic will be playing every down or 95% of the downs.
Actually, they will...or at least, they have prior. Last year in fact. As I mentioned above, Williams was off the field for 25% of the Steelers total snaps on D for the year, and between 20-25% of the snaps each game after Shazier was shelved. So, the Steelers absolutely were giving the dot to a player that was leaving the field a quarter of the snaps. Not like there's only one helmet with a green dot on the team, you can have three, just only one on the field at a time. While Shazier was healthy, this was basically a non-issue as he was only leaving the field around 10% of the time. Once he went down though, they still cycled all the LBs including dot-wearer VW. L.J. Fort was one of the other two guys with a dot, IIRC(Tomlin mentioned it in a presser or interview I think). Not sure who the third was.They aren't giving the dot to a player that leaves the field on 3rd, which is what you stated, not implied, above.
One player isn't replacing Shazier, as I'd opine that the Steelers are well aware. And I would say there is no doubt it's a weakness on their D as of this date. :(Steelers ILB Tyler Matakevich is the early favorite to start opposite Vince Williams.
Matakevich repped with the starters throughout the offseason. An undersized college producer, Matakevich has been limited to special teams his first two seasons, but only needs to beat out Jon Bostic to replace Ryan Shazier. It's a potential weak spot in Pittsburgh's defense.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-orleans-saints/post/_/id/30136/qb-controversy-saints-d-loaded-after-adding-demario-davisNO: I don't have a strong feeling here. Robertson and Te'o were 3 down guys, they add Demario and Anzalone to the mix. Anyone?
Not clear yet, but Robertson and Te'o didn't sound like they were in the mix much.This season, the most likely setup is Davis at Mike, Klein at Sam and Anzalone at Will in base packages. But it's much harder to project the nickel lineup.
Perhaps it will be Klein at Mike and Davis at Will -- which we saw when they were on the field together in last week's minicamp. But the Saints love Anzalone's potential, and he might prove to be their best coverage linebacker. So that could make it an either-or decision between Davis and Klein on passing downs.