matuski
Footballguy
You don't have this information.. any numbers you give are based on assumptions. Vague estimations, by definition of them being undocumented.
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The migrant caravan (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
If you’re so worried about it, Stlrams, let’s give them a path to citizenship with the caveat that for the next 20 years they can’t accept public money for anything. None. Most of these people will take that deal in a heartbeat. Let them in, let them stay. The rest will take care of itself.
My parents and their parents and their parents since 1635 have paid taxes over the years helping this country so I see a big difference between me and any illegals aliens.
matuski
Footballguy
Those are numbers for documented legal citizens... seems irrelevant to a debate on the impact of undocumented illegals.
timschochet
Footballguy
That’s not correct. Most of the studies use statistical sampling and can arrive at pretty consistent assumptions.
matuski
Footballguy
Please link then.. this would be fascinating.
How do you sample a population of undocumented workers?
I am related to a recognized expert on the subject, and he has often lamented about not having solid data on these people.
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timschochet
Footballguy
You may see a big difference but there isn’t one. And what your parents and their parents did have nothing to do with you or whether or not you deserve to be here more than somebody who arrived yesterday, with or without papers.
Do you think your ancestors who arrived in 1635 had proper papers? Were they approved by the local Native American government at the time?
KCitons
Footballguy
How about taking care of our Veterans? Since guts and courage are a main criteria.
So this speaks to 2nd generation immigrants. I asked about illegals immigrants as Tim indicates they are a net cost benefit so please provide link supporting..
timschochet
Footballguy
No thanks. I’ve linked studies in the past. Others can do it. It’s become a waste of time for me.
matuski
Footballguy
I added this post quote from you:
My father would very seriously use this if it exists.
timschochet
Footballguy
We absolutely should. None of this is either-or. And some of those veterans are undocumented.
timschochet
Footballguy
Your father is correct; we need to have much more information than we do. We probably will never get it until such time as we grant these people legal status.
That being said, there are certain assumptions that we can make, and have.
So you are changing the argument here. You said illegals are net positive to our economy which I counter. Now you are saying proper papers and 2,nd generation studies like sno nuff show they are net positive. Stop moving the goal posts and just admit that illegals cost us money..
sho nuff
Footballguy
Those and others I’ve posted before about 2nd generation immigrants and they don’t show between those where we parents were here legal or illegal. It supports the exact point I made about 2nd generation immigrants.
So it’s extremely relevant to what I stated.
matuski
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
It speaks to what I actually stated rather than you trying to spin what o said to illegals.
I was clear in stating that because you questioned those born here to illegals that are citizens...psst, those are 2nd generation immigrants and are actual citizens.
timschochet
Footballguy
I am simply responding to your posts. You brought up your relatives I didn’t.
I don’t admit undocumented people (they are no more “illegal” than your ancestors, or mine) cost us net money, because that would be a false assertion.
matuski
Footballguy
It seems very unlike you to dodge specifics.
Hope you can provide the studies you are referring to.
sho nuff
Footballguy
It was the subject of my post when someone questioned those who were born here into citezenship.
So saying they are better off then their parents is not news. Illegals start with nothing..
I’m a fiscal conservative so I accept your offer provided they can’t vote for the same number of years. Please keep in mind the democrats had ample opportunity to offer this and punted. I’m fine with keeping illegals if no crimes..
sho nuff
Footballguy
There are more studies out there. They have been posted. It’s not just about being better off than their parents.
sho nuff
Footballguy
You have asked for a lot of links but provided zero to support any point you are trying to make.
Who are you to judge me that illegal immigrants have more guts and courage then me?
You initially made the argument so I’m just asking for a link to support that. Do you have anything ?
sho nuff
Footballguy
I have amd as has been said these links have been provided many times supporting these arguments. None of this is new.
What do you have supporting your thoughts?
The Commish
Footballguy
I'm pretty confident I have made no such claim. I was using the number you set
I told you in the post you quoted why I responded to what I thought you were saying
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
Depends on age for first generation. 0-24 is best. By second generation they’re generally a net benefit over both generations.
https://www.cato.org/blog/fairs-fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-study-fatally-flawed
So based on your link even 1st generation of illegals are a negative impact- right?
matuski
Footballguy
Come on commish... that "you" was general.. anybody.I'm pretty confident I have made no such claim. I was using the number you set
I told you in the post you quoted why I responded to what I thought you were saying
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
It depends on what you mean. Some demographics likely are, though granting them amnesty would likely reverse that because enforcement is a big cost.
But the next generation is one of the big impacts. Which is really important. And many if not most of the costs you’re talking about are for or because of those kids. So taking those costs but not including the benefits is a strange accounting.
sho nuff
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
You see? If it were just the two of us we can work things out.
Actually if I was in charge undocumented people would be given a path to legality but would NEVER be allowed to vote. Let their children vote. There should be some punishment, besides a fine, for the crime of coming here illegally. They should never be allowed full citizenship IMO.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t trust the Democrats at all on immigration issues. IMO they keep the issue alive because it helps them get Latino votes. But when in power they never do anything about it because they’re fearful of losing more blue collar whites. Hopefully this will change with more progressive and Latino politicians, but we’ll see.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
You mean like when House Democrats offered ten years no federal benefits whatsoever in exchange for a legal residency pathway for about 2/3 of current undocumented immigrants in 2013 as part of their comprehensive immigration reform bill?
Because you can’t vote until you’re a citizen. And they wouldn’t even be regular permanent residents for ten years, much less citizens.
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matuski
Footballguy
The first generation illegals are the burden.. maybe I am missing it again, but I don't believe there is any debate regarding legalized citizens.
They are documented, they pay into the system just like us.
jamny
Footballguy
Looking into this further and you may need to knock this down to $6 billion since the calculation apparently includes the employer contribution as well. That also comes from the roughly half of the undocumented (3.1 million) that pay income tax. There are still 3.9 million who don't, according to 2010 estimates. The estimate is also based on a $34,000 income.
matuski
Footballguy
And this is why I said above the easiest fix would be to enable resources to enforce what we have. We have laws and policies in place that would be much more effective for all involved if the agencies and individuals carrying them out were provided the resources to do so.
Despite all the grandstanding, both sides have had opportunities to put their political positions to the test. Neither side actually wants the immigration issues solved imo. Maybe this next generation will be willing to take it on.
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timschochet
Footballguy
My problem with your solution is that I don’t want to enforce what we have. I don’t want our current laws and policies to be effective. I think that would make things far worse.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Eh let’s give our forbears the credit though, we have it because they earned it. And you would to if you were in their situation. Our people didn’t get here because there was some cushy corporate job awaiting them, they did earn their citizenship, and I don’t see anything wrong with saying that, or that current immigrants are doing the same and deserve the same chance.
timschochet
Footballguy
I give them all the credit in the world. They did earn their citizenship, absolutely.
But we (most of us) are not them. We are enjoying the fruits of their efforts.
sho nuff
Footballguy
The first can be debated...the second generation being actually better off (on avarrage) than the all US as a whole would mean to get them...yiu deal woth the possibility that their parents cost us a little.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/02/07/second-generation-americans/
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Why wouldn't you include the employer contribution to social security? We include it in calculating benefits to citizens.
matuski
Footballguy
It can't just be a free for all. We don't live in a free for all. We follow laws, even the ones we don't agree with. We are all registered and ID'd in order to make every system more efficient (not just the laws). We rely on our documents to take advantage of what this country offers, and to pay into it.
More undocumented people doesn't help. An orderly and lawful process would.
If the first step to getting there is actually enforcing what we have, I think that is reasonable.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
That's one of the big issues here, thinking long-term versus short-term fiscal responsibility. I don't particularly care if gas goes up $0.05 next week, but I'd like Social Security to be 100% solvent and paying full benefits in fifty years.
matuski
Footballguy
When you have to bring legal citizens into your argument for illegals, by definition it seems you are forfeiting the illegal portion of the conversation?
And unless I missed it, nobody is debating legal citizens and their contributions here?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Not all of them, we don't. No one does.It can't just be a free for all. We don't live in a free for all. We follow laws, even the ones we don't agree with. We are all registered and ID'd in order to make every system more efficient (not just the laws). We rely on our documents to take advantage of what this country offers, and to pay into it.
More undocumented people doesn't help. An orderly and lawful process would.
If the first step to getting there is actually enforcing what we have, I think that is reasonable.
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