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Elizabeth Warren wants to cancel a gigantic portion of student loans (2 Viewers)

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/11/23/why-the-government-is-to-blame-for-high-college-costs

The more money the federal government pumps into financial aid, the more money the colleges charge for tuition. Inflation-adjusted tuition and fees have tripled over those same 30 years while aid quadrupled; the aid is going up faster than the tuition. Thanks to the federal government, massive sums of money are available to pay for massive tuitions.

The information is out there if you'll look for it
Just proves you don't read posts. If you actually go back through the thread and read my comments you'll see what I'm talking about.

And this link doesn't support the words you wrote in the initial post i commented on. But that's nothing new

 
For the most part, you can't have home and vehicle debt "erased" through bankruptcy.  There are a few exceptions but you pretty much have to pay those debts or lose the collateral (repossession/foreclosure). What The Commish wrote was incorrect.  
Sorry. Which part?  On my phone. What were talking about here?

 
of course they would tim, why wouldn't they?   its just another action by the government that would potentially make them more money.   Come on man.  
But when they make more money so do we. You want indicators of a growing, prosperous society? Start with the homebuilders. Any economist will tell you that. If they’re doing well, everybody else is too. 

 
Besides the national Association of Realtors, several homebuilders associations back this idea, and the Chamber of Commerce is also positive. This isn’t just some lefty plan that only progressives are into. Like BIG, it represents some alternative thinking that a lot of economists believe will grow our economy exponentially. 
Of course homebuilders and realtors are going to love it. Realtors make money on transaction fees and homebuilders are out the minute the house is purchased. What do they care who holds the debt?

In the end it's no different than any other government stimulus program.

 
Of course homebuilders and realtors are going to love it. Realtors make money on transaction fees and homebuilders are out the minute the house is purchased. What do they care who holds the debt?

In the end it's no different than any other government stimulus program.
Exactly. And I like stimulus programs. I think they work. Not all of the time, but this one’s a pretty good bet. 

 
per your article we are talking about 1/5 of people carrying student loans are being denied.  thats not really groundbreaking or hardly some epidemic 
It’s a pretty big number in the scheme of things. The profit margin for home building is pretty low. If you build 100 houses you need to sell all 100 to make a profit. You sell 99 you’re breaking even or losing money. 

 
did you sleep through 2008?  
Why do you keep throwing out insults and snarky comments? Do you think it makes your arguments stronger? It doesn’t. 

Of course I am referring to responsible home ownership, not subprime loans. That’s why this particular stimulus targets college graduates- because every study that’s ever been done shows that they are far more responsible at paying their bills than those who never went to college. That’s just a fact of life. These are the people we need to grow our economy- so let’s remove their hindrances. 

 
I find this fascinating from a pure political gamesmanship angle. 

Obviously, anyone with student debt has lots of incentive to love this plan.

Anyone that's paid for their college or just paid off student debt has lots of incentive not to love this plan.

The question is on net, which is the bigger group?

It's a super interesting gamesmanship gamble Warren's taking here. 
Based on my social media landscape -- sample size is pathetic here -- the dominant argument is "I paid off my loans like a responsible adult, so why should we give handouts to those that didn't?"  My Twitter feed is overloaded with rebuttals to this argument that are completely valid on an intellectual level, but they don't really alter the fact that lots of people have a deeply visceral reaction to this kind of thing. 

 
Based on my social media landscape -- sample size is pathetic here -- the dominant argument is "I paid off my loans like a responsible adult, so why should we give handouts to those that didn't?"  My Twitter feed is overloaded with rebuttals to this argument that are completely valid on an intellectual level, but they don't really alter the fact that lots of people have a deeply visceral reaction to this kind of thing. 
Exactly. 

From a gamesmanship angle, it feels like a Hail Mary pass. I know this is not new for her but the timing here feels like taking her shot. 

I couldn't disagree more strongly with the policy, but from a gamesmanship angle, I could get behind it. 

 
Why do you keep throwing out insults and snarky comments? Do you think it makes your arguments stronger? It doesn’t. 

Of course I am referring to responsible home ownership, not subprime loans. That’s why this particular stimulus targets college graduates- because every study that’s ever been done shows that they are far more responsible at paying their bills than those who never went to college. That’s just a fact of life. These are the people we need to grow our economy- so let’s remove their hindrances. 
how was that an insult?  come on dude quit being thin skinned

 
Exactly. And I like stimulus programs. I think they work. Not all of the time, but this one’s a pretty good bet. 
I don't necessarily disagree and give props for offering ideas. Do you really think we need to be stimulated to build more houses?

As an alternative, I would propose a service-based limited loan forgiveness based on targeted industries that are either high cost/relatively low wage and have a benefit for the majority of the population. For example:

Education 

Infrastructure-related (wide range here)

Health care for the elderly

 
no problem.  i was referring to warrens proposals not tims.   sorry for confusion 
Thanks. And to be clear, it's better when we just steer clear of words like moronic altogether. Thanks. 

I too don't get it at all and can't see why people think this is ok. But we can discuss it and be cool. 

 
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Because if we somehow found a way to eliminate all debt overnight, our economy would boom like never before. We’d have 100% growth. It would be incredible

Of course that’s a fantasy; it can’t ever happen. But it would be great if we could wipe away all debt. Incidentally we’ve done this a few times for other countries: we saved Western Europe from Communism by doing it (see the Marshall Plan). But we can’t do it for ourselves. 
Easy Donald, easy. 

 
pantherclub said:

per your article we are talking about 1/5 of people carrying student loans are being denied. thats not really groundbreaking or hardly some epidemic

Wow, that number is a lot lower than I expected.

I mean, geez, 80% of people with student loans are able to buy a house! That seems like a pretty big number to me.

Also, how do we know that the other 20% would even qualify for a loan if they didn't have student debt? Maybe the reason they got denied is because they have credit card debt, or a low-paying job, or a criminal record, or some other reason.
 
Why do you keep throwing out insults and snarky comments? Do you think it makes your arguments stronger? It doesn’t. 
No offense but you do this to me every time I try to join one of your "real discussions".  It's tiresome watching you on the see saw back and forth.  

 
Exactly. And I like stimulus programs. I think they work. Not all of the time, but this one’s a pretty good bet. 
If only 1/5 of potential buyers with student loans are getting denied you feel like this is needed stimulus? Wasn’t the argument that with a market this strong now isn’t the time for stimulus or tax cuts?

 
Because if we somehow found a way to eliminate all debt overnight, our economy would boom like never before. We’d have 100% growth. It would be incredible. 

Of course that’s a fantasy; it can’t ever happen. But it would be great if we could wipe away all debt. Incidentally we’ve done this a few times for other countries: we saved Western Europe from Communism by doing it (see the Marshall Plan). But we can’t do it for ourselves. 
Just saw this. Are you suggesting that the government go in debt to pay all the debt owed by any American citizen or business?

 
I’m fairly liberal, but this whole line of thinking makes no sense to me.

college graduates are better at paying their bills, so we should encourage them to buy houses by forgiving the debts that they knowingly accumulated while getting the education that gave them better earning power.  

If they’re so good at paying their bills, why can’t they be responsible for paying their student loans?  

Why should they get a government assisted break that someone that went to a trade school, didn’t accumulate debt, and also pays their bills doesn’t have?  Aren’t we punishing them by making it harder and more expensive to buy a house relative to the college grad that just got a windfall?

sounds like a great deal for lenders, builders and realtors.   

 
How about this:

Tax the Uber wealthy billionaires an additional percentage to be applied to a college loan debt assistance fund. These funds will be a dollar for dollar match, first come first serve each year and once depleted that’s it for the year. 

Just spitballing but a way to assist the motivated students working to get out of debt but not a hand out to all. Still don’t feel grest about it knowing many that pay their debts responsibly but a compromise from the handout she proposed. Something I could live with although not crazy about. 

 
When did taxpayers become co-signers on student loans?  Maybe we shouldn’t be encouraging so many people to go to college and should be encouraging trades instead.  Incentivize not running up debt instead.

change bankruptcy laws so that if someone is truly swimming in debt, they can discharge a percentage of student loans through bankruptcy.

 
Besides the national Association of Realtors, several homebuilders associations back this idea, and the Chamber of Commerce is also positive. This isn’t just some lefty plan that only progressives are into. Like BIG, it represents some alternative thinking that a lot of economists believe will grow our economy exponentially. 
Trade associations with members who stand to make a ton of money from this policy support it?  That doesn’t strike me as odd.

If you want to stimulate home buying, build more homes.

 
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Why do you keep throwing out insults and snarky comments? Do you think it makes your arguments stronger? It doesn’t. 

Of course I am referring to responsible home ownership, not subprime loans. That’s why this particular stimulus targets college graduates- because every study that’s ever been done shows that they are far more responsible at paying their bills than those who never went to college. That’s just a fact of life. These are the people we need to grow our economy- so let’s remove their hindrances. 
We should let non-college graduates pay the expenses of college graduates because we need to free up the graduates to spend more money, faster.  Because, you know, they are smarter and better.  That’s just a fact of life.

Wonderful...

 
Joe asked about housing and vehicle debt being eliminated in bankruptcy.  You replied that it could.  It can’t. (Besides a few unusual exceptions.)
Apologies...that's correct.  You just walk away from those and take a hit on your credit.  The lending companies can sue you and get a judgment but I don't think they are allowed to do direct withdrawl from your pay, right?

 
Cynically, I believe a big push to get people into STEM is to reduce future STEM wages. Right now there are more STEM jobs than people, so wages are high. In 10-20 years when every high school student has been told to pursue STEM to get a high paying job, the market will then be flooded with STEM graduates who need jobs and suddenly google will be like "oh, you heard these jobs pay 200k, how about 80k, take it or leave it". 

Also, there is plenty of money to find for free college if you dip into something like the military budget that is 90% grift. The combination of colleges being run as for profit institutions (look at them chasing foreign students who pay 5x what a local student does) with the decline in federal funding has massively inflated the costs needed. It seems like there should be a way for the federal government to effectively cap the amount of money a public school can use for administration and for profit seeking.

 
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I can see allowing bankruptcy for college loans. But it seems fair it would have to be exactly like personal bankruptcy is now.

I'm sure there are people that know here, but my understanding is declaring personal bankruptcy now is not as simple as saying you no longer wish to pay your debt. It carries a pretty significant threshold and also carries some baggage afterward.

If I'm understanding the Warren proposal, the threshold for the equivalent of declaring student loan bankruptcy is having a pulse and not living in a household that makes over $250,000. That's quite a bit different. 
Yeah....I don't know of any bankruptcy process she's introduced.  She's said loan forgiveness which is completely different.  I might be ok with that as a one time thing, but they'd need something like bankruptcy after that reset or else we'd be right back where we're at in just a few short years.  And I didn't mean to make it sound like it was "easy".  That wasn't my intention.

 
timschochet said:
One recurrent theme is that even though young people are still coming out of college with good salaries they’re not able lto purchase homes in the same numbers their parents did because of the student loans. 
You say this like it's a done deal fact that it's student loans.  These are multivariate problems.  The media just parrot these memes until one believes they are true.  While student loans have some effect and are part of the equation, the data shows that millennials are tracking the same ownership rate about 8% delayed from previous generations.  They are also delaying marriage and kids substantially over previous gens.  And current affordability ratings and supply are low in many areas.  

BTW, the answer to this isn't to forgive debt to a system that has likely the most miserably bad underwriting standards of any program ever.  Essentially giving a system that has seen prices increase at multiples of inflation because of the proliferation of easy money a massive steroid boost is absolutely not the answer.  It just shows how little Ms. Warren understands about how economic systems work and why this one is broken.  

On a personal note, my kid is going into high school right now.  If this is put in I'll happily quit to get under the income limit and cash in the 529 (the 10% penalty is well worth it given the penalty for actually saving for college if I was forced to pay with it).

On another personal note it's pretty ballsy of her to champion this as she was earning ~400k for teaching one class.  The perception of corruptive self dealing is just astonishing.  I'm sure some other progressive will pick up this torch - Ms. Warren has zero chance to be POTUS, so as is her proposals mean zilch.

Personally, I'd remove the special protections of student loans when it comes to filing bankruptcy and let the reconciliation happen that way.  It requires the individual to make a decision to either figure out how to pay the loans or file bankruptcy to get out from under the loans.  That way, they are "penalized" to some extent for washing their hands of their obligation.  This special protection is a significant part of the problem.  
If we did that we should reprice the risk on student loans and have rates track what would be charged for non-recourse personal loans.  Because without the bankruptcy protections this is exactly what these are.  The taxpayer should not bear the brunt of this risk.

The special protection is a feature, not a bug.  And it's a damned good one.

The other side of this coin is that well-meaning liberals decided to make it much too easy for people to borrow more and more money for college. And with many of those loans being federally guaranteed, the combined result was for colleges to pump up the costs as high as they could go.
No different than well meaning liberals arguing vociferously that 3% down payments for guaranteed home loans was well within the norm and that if you took that football away it would unduly hurt poor people.  Boy they got that right, didn't they.

As I indicated I would tie it directly to a new home buying program. Basically you can transfer your debt to a first mortgage. 
Narrator:  "And, ladies and gentlemen, this is how the great real estate bubble of 2022 grew so big and popped."

Besides the national Association of Realtors, several homebuilders associations back this idea, and the Chamber of Commerce is also positive. This isn’t just some lefty plan that only progressives are into. Like BIG, it represents some alternative thinking that a lot of economists believe will grow our economy exponentially. 
These same institutions were the ones that refused to admit there was a real estate bubble until about 18 months after it blew.  Seriously, Tim.  Distorting markets like this is not a good idea. 

Also, there is plenty of money to find for free college if you dip into something like the military budget that is 90% grift. 
Substantiate this.  In Joe-like fashion, let's just say that I strongly submit this number is horse manure.  If you're gonna spout it, defend it.

 
Based on my social media landscape -- sample size is pathetic here -- the dominant argument is "I paid off my loans like a responsible adult, so why should we give handouts to those that didn't?"  My Twitter feed is overloaded with rebuttals to this argument that are completely valid on an intellectual level, but they don't really alter the fact that lots of people have a deeply visceral reaction to this kind of thing. 
I'd be curious what a valid argument is

 
The other side of this coin is that well-meaning liberals decided to make it much too easy for people to borrow more and more money for college. And with many of those loans being federally guaranteed, the combined result was for colleges to pump up the costs as high as they could go.
No different than well meaning liberals arguing vociferously that 3% down payments for guaranteed home loans was well within the norm and that if you took that football away it would unduly hurt poor people.  Boy they got that right, didn't they.
The artificial housing boom of the 2000s was pushed by liberals and conservatives alike. Liberals loved it because it made poor Democrat voters thankful; conservatives loved it because it made homebuilders and investors rich.

Here's George Bush promoting a plan to lower lending standards and use government funds to help with down payments in 2002.

Another 2002 speech with a similar theme

Of course, in 2008 the Bush White House claimed that they'd been warning the (mostly Republican) Congress since 2001, but the 2002 speeches say otherwise.

 
I seem to be outnumbered in this thread something like 30-1. Liberals and conservatives alike. Damn I even get more support for my extreme views on immigration than I’ve gotten here. Lol. 

Oh well, I thought it was a good idea. But if this thread is even close to representative of public opinion, Warren would be well advised not to push it too hard. 

 
I seem to be outnumbered in this thread something like 30-1. Liberals and conservatives alike. Damn I even get more support for my extreme views on immigration than I’ve gotten here. Lol. 

Oh well, I thought it was a good idea. But if this thread is even close to representative of public opinion, Warren would be well advised not to push it too hard. 
Current Ratio as far as I can tell

75% Liberals

25% Independents and Republicans

 
I seem to be outnumbered in this thread something like 30-1. Liberals and conservatives alike. Damn I even get more support for my extreme views on immigration than I’ve gotten here. Lol. 

Oh well, I thought it was a good idea. But if this thread is even close to representative of public opinion, Warren would be well advised not to push it too hard. 
I liked your reference to Keynes earlier (it was right before I went the gym, so I never gave my opinion). And I think Warren probably has proposed the best policies of any candidate.  However, she falls flat here.

I am not sure if we are trying to do welfare or or make college more affordable here.  If the former, then I would prefer actual welfare or spending on healthcare instead.  If the latter, it seems we should expand the grant programs. 

I just can't get behind that college educated people are the cohort we need to divert money too, just because they are in student debt.  Sorry.

 
PhantomJB said:
Choice A: Study engineering and business...shut down the library on Saturday nights...graduate magna cum laude...design innovative new solar cell...put self on path to earning $250K+

Choice B: Study music...drink with your friends...study overseas for a semester...spend afternoons napping...lobby for a pass/fail grading system (and get it)...earn $60K with no debt...whine about climate change.
You can do a lot of A and B if you do it right/in balance.  

 
I seem to be outnumbered in this thread something like 30-1. Liberals and conservatives alike. Damn I even get more support for my extreme views on immigration than I’ve gotten here. Lol. 

Oh well, I thought it was a good idea. But if this thread is even close to representative of public opinion, Warren would be well advised not to push it too hard. 
its funny that you admonish people for disagreeing with things but in other threads ie fraternity hazing you are the exact same.   you go ballistic over something without knowing the facts or having any clue of how to fix the issues.  

 
I'm all in on going back to school for free...always wanted another degree in finance.  Now I can do it on the taxpayer dime!!

Yes!

 
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/11/23/why-the-government-is-to-blame-for-high-college-costs

The more money the federal government pumps into financial aid, the more money the colleges charge for tuition. Inflation-adjusted tuition and fees have tripled over those same 30 years while aid quadrupled; the aid is going up faster than the tuition. Thanks to the federal government, massive sums of money are available to pay for massive tuitions.

The information is out there if you'll look for it
As the former, long-time Controller for a small, Catholic school (where I'm now full-time accounting faculty), I can verify this.  When we knew Pell Grants and state grants were going up 4-5%, we'd increase our tuition about the same.  In effect, we knew students receiving aid wouldn't be much worse off since they were getting more aid to cover the higher tuition cost.   When Pell Grants stabilized, we ended up keeping tuition increases to a lower rate, knowing that the increase would have to be absorbed by the students and their families.

I recall one school in our area who had a nice niche of attracting rather mediocre students who didn't otherwise qualify for achievement-based scholarships.  The school kept their cost rather low since students weren't getting much aid other than the need-based grants.  The school decided to change the model, and we warned them ...you'll be on a steady, circular uphill climb where tuition and aid keep ratcheting up.  And that's what happened.

 
I'm all in on going back to school for free...always wanted another degree in finance.  Now I can do it on the taxpayer dime!!

Yes!
At first I didn’t like this plan.....but I’m starting to warm up to it. It would be a sequel to the movie “Old School”, I like it....that’s genius.  :banned:

 

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