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timschochet

Alabama passes most stringent anti-abortion law in the natIon.

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/hb-481-georgia-law-criminalizes-abortion-subjects-women-to-life-in-prison.amp

No abortion after 6 weeks. (Many women don’t even know they’re pregnant at that point.) Life imprisonment for women who have abortions after this point. And all of this after a very questionable election result. 

Edited by timschochet

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Also under this law; fetuses after 6 weeks are now legal citizens with full rights and to be used for population determined decisions for the state. 

This will obviously be going to the Supreme Court...

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Also under this law; fetuses after 6 weeks are now legal citizens with full rights and to be used for population determined decisions for the state. 

This will obviously be going to the Supreme Court...

I don't think this one will stick.  

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In terms of politics these legislators have just handed Democrats a huge gift- and not just in Georgia. Before yesterday, the issue of late term abortions was a winning one for Trump and conservatives- they could point to how extreme certain Democrats were on this subject and the public seemed to agree with them. Now, overnight, all of that has been reversed: it is Republicans who appear extreme, and powerful elements of the Democratic base are about to be more energized than they’ve been in decades. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

In terms of politics these legislators have just handed Democrats a huge gift- and not just in Georgia. Before yesterday, the issue of late term abortions was a winning one for Trump and conservatives- they could point to how extreme certain Democrats were on this subject and the public seemed to agree with them. Now, overnight, all of that has been reversed: it is Republicans who appear extreme, and powerful elements of the Democratic base are about to be more energized than they’ve been in decades. 

I was about to post something along these lines.  

In addition, pro-lifers understandably want to get an abortion case to the supreme court.  This is not the case they probably want.  A heartbeat bill without all the other stuff would provide a much cleaner avenue to overturn Roe and Casey than this bill does.

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It's even worse:  The law allows Georgia to arrest women for crossing state lines to get an abortion. This is truly Handmaid's Tale type stuff. I wish Atlanta could secede from the state.

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Does the bill have any provisions for rape/incest?  If not, I wonder what the prison sentence is for the rapist.  Hypothetically, a woman gets raped and pregnant and has an abortion. Would she get a longer prison sentence then the rapist?

Also, can a woman cross state lines to get an abortion?

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3 minutes ago, Workhorse said:

It's even worse:  The law allows Georgia to arrest women for crossing state lines to get an abortion. This is truly Handmaid's Tale type stuff. I wish Atlanta could secede from the state.

F'n ridiculous. Please tell me this can't possibly hold up in court?

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Just now, Amused to Death said:

Does the bill have any provisions for rape/incest?  If not, I wonder what the prison sentence is for the rapist.  Hypothetically, a woman gets raped and pregnant and has an abortion. Would she get a longer prison sentence then the rapist?

Also, can a woman cross state lines to get an abortion?

So far as I have been able to read, no exceptions. 

And if you truly believe that a fetus is a life, why should there be? I’ve always thought there is a logical disconnect for a person to be pro-life but make exceptions for rape or incest. 

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Folks sure do like imposing their views through legislation.  We seem to have a great deal of concern for how others conduct themselves.  Perhaps we should be more concerned about how we conduct ourselves.

 

I wonder if any supporter of this legislation actually believes they have a victory here.  I suppose a few do.  They will cite that any baby saved is worth the effort, even if this goes down I defeat in the courts as it so inevitably will.   

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Just now, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Folks sure do like imposing their views through legislation.  We seem to have a great deal of concern for how others conduct themselves.  Perhaps we should be more concerned about how we conduct ourselves.

 

I wonder if any supporter of this legislation actually believes they have a victory here.  I suppose a few do.  They will cite that any baby saved is worth the effort, even if this goes down I defeat in the courts as it so inevitably will.   

Regardless of what anyone thinks of this particular bill, isn't the bolded pretty much true of most things?

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11 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

Life imprisonment?  That is insane and cruel.

and some wonder what is driving us further apart.

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3 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Regardless of what anyone thinks of this particular bill, isn't the bolded pretty much true of most things?

Yes. Indeed. Good point. 

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hopefully implementation can be delayed pending the inevitable lawsuit and court hearing?

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13 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Regardless of what anyone thinks of this particular bill, isn't the bolded pretty much true of most things?

I sure think so. That's why I phrased it generally, rather than specifically to this subject matter. We, as a society, sure do like to concern ourselves with others.

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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Just now, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I sure think so. that's why I phrased it generally, rather than specifically to this subject matter. We, as a society, sure do like to concern ourselves with others.

I agree with this- my pro choice position has always had a libertarian bent to it- but of course a pro- life person would argue that a fetus is a human being and therefore we should concern ourselves with its protection. 

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The interesting part of this whole thing (to me anyway) is the "full rights" part.  So, if mom decides she's gonna smoke and drink through the pregnancy and it ends up being a major contributor to the infant's death, a deformity etc are they saying the mother could be prosecuted for her actions?

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8 minutes ago, The Commish said:

The interesting part of this whole thing (to me anyway) is the "full rights" part.  So, if mom decides she's gonna smoke and drink through the pregnancy and it ends up being a major contributor to the infant's death, a deformity etc are they saying the mother could be prosecuted for her actions?

What if the mother does not attend regular doctor visits or taking vitamins to help the fetus form into a healthy baby, would this be considered child abuse?  I know this is extreme but at the same point if a fetus has full rights, this could be construed within those rights.

Edited by Fantasy_Freak

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1 minute ago, Godsbrother said:

Life imprisonment?    Ridiculous!   

Crucifixion, beheadings, and public stonings down?

I favor pressings and keel hauling, after purification by fire.

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders

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Is there an exemption

26 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Does the bill have any provisions for rape/incest?  If not, I wonder what the prison sentence is for the rapist.  Hypothetically, a woman gets raped and pregnant and has an abortion. Would she get a longer prison sentence then the rapist?

Also, can a woman cross state lines to get an abortion?

What about if the woman's life is being threatened by the baby?

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Just now, Ilov80s said:

Is there an exemption

What about if the woman's life is being threatened by the baby?

They don't acquire the language skills to threaten anybody until about the 27th trimester.  Potentially complications from pregnancy could put the mother's health at risk.

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2 minutes ago, Fantasy_Freak said:

What if the mother does not attend regular doctor visits or taking vitamins to help the fetus form into a healthy baby, would this be considered child abuse?  I know this is extreme but at the same point if a fetus has full rights, this could be construed within those rights.

I wonder how this would effect Doctor malpractice premiums? What if there's a mistake that causes a miscarriage? Would they now be even more likely to face lawsuits?

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1 minute ago, Bucky86 said:

I wonder how this would effect Doctor malpractice premiums? What if there's a mistake that causes a miscarriage? Would they now be even more likely to face lawsuits?

Or charges of second degree murder?

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10 minutes ago, Fantasy_Freak said:

What if the mother does not attend regular doctor visits or taking vitamins to help the fetus form into a healthy baby, would this be considered child abuse?  I know this is extreme but at the same point if a fetus has full rights, this could be construed within those rights.

Yeah....the "full rights" part of this thing seems really bizarre...this coming from a guy who isn't an abortion fan but understands why the laws are what they are.

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10 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

They don't acquire the language skills to threaten anybody until about the 27th trimester.  Potentially complications from pregnancy could put the mother's health at risk.

LOL yeah putting the life of the mother in danger. Do you know if there is a provision for that?

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16 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I favor pressings and keel hauling, after purification by fire.

Wait- the purification by fire comes first? Wouldn’t that make the rest of it rather superfluous? 

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17 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Wait- the purification by fire comes first? Wouldn’t that make the rest of it rather superfluous? 

Only if one believes that purification cannot be achieved before death.  Still, since that is how it is usually taken I take your meaning.

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GOP was already losing women, young women especially, in large numbers. Mainly over reproductive rights. This seems like something you would do to hasten that. It won't withstand legal challenge. It will be used against Republicans effectively across the country. They can't afford to tick off the evangelicals but you can't win with just them either. And women will come out to vote on this issue.

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Curious about something, in response to the criminalization of crossing state lines to get an abortion:

Does anyone here know if there is anywhere in the U.S. to get a (a) medically safe but also (b) completely confidential abortion? Maybe even -- but not necessarily -- to the point that the pregnant woman never gives her name to the practitioner.

...

It would seem that, in practice, the state of Georgia would have no real means of enforcing the crossing-state-lines thing. First thing they would need is an ongoing registry of pregnant Georgia residents, updated in real time. And are they planning to have pregnant-women checkpoints at the various state borders?

An unintended consequence of this Georgia bill is that many women will delay in seeking pre-natal medical treatment once they suspect they are pregnant (home test kit, missed period, morning sickness, etc.). Women who want to retain their options probably won't want a medical paper trail confirming their pregnancy early on, HIPAA or no HIPAA. Meanwhile, fetal maladies that can be detected and treated in the womb go undiagnosed. Eptopic pregnancies, which are dangerous for the mother, will more often go undiagnosed, as well.

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23 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Wait- the purification by fire comes first? Wouldn’t that make the rest of it rather superfluous? 

Not for Danerys Targarden

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44 minutes ago, Fantasy_Freak said:

What if the mother does not attend regular doctor visits or taking vitamins to help the fetus form into a healthy baby, would this be considered child abuse?  I know this is extreme but at the same point if a fetus has full rights, this could be construed within those rights.

The bolded will be one of the consequences of this bill -- more mothers keeping suspected pregnancies on the downlow not getting pre-natal care.

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I'll never understand the R stance when it comes to abortion and poor people pumping out more poor people. One would think that they would be encouraging abortion. You certainly are not going to get the poor & stupid to understand and use birth control properly. We can see that is not working. They don't want to pay for them and neither do I so why wouldn't you be pro-abortion?

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4 hours ago, lod001 said:

I'll never understand the R stance when it comes to abortion and poor people pumping out more poor people. One would think that they would be encouraging abortion. You certainly are not going to get the poor & stupid to understand and use birth control properly. We can see that is not working. They don't want to pay for them and neither do I so why wouldn't you be pro-abortion?

We have been successful with education and with making tools available. Teen pregnancy is way down. The average age a woman is having her first kid is way up.We are winning the battle when we are allowed to educate and provide tools. However many anti-abortion advocates are also anti-sex ed and anti-birth control. 

Edited by Ilov80s
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I don't understand why they stopped at life imprisonment.   It seems that many Pro-Lifers are also for capital punishment so why not go all the way and send these Jezebels right to hell where they belong?

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2 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I don't understand why they stopped at life imprisonment.   It seems that many Pro-Lifers are also for capital punishment so why not go all the way and send these Jezebels right to hell where they belong?

Exactly.  If you follow their line of thinking,  it is 1st degree premeditated murder. 

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In other news, season 3 of the Handmaid's Tale is coming out soon.

This is absolutely bananas.

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3 hours ago, Workhorse said:

It's even worse:  The law allows Georgia to arrest women for crossing state lines to get an abortion. 

How in the world is this even constitutional?  

What's next?  The state of California arresting me because I went to Nevada and gambled?

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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

Also under this law; fetuses after 6 weeks are now legal citizens with full rights and to be used for population determined decisions for the state. 

This will obviously be going to the Supreme Court...

 

Are we sure about that? Is that obvious?

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