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Abortion thread: (2 Viewers)

tommyGunZ said:
Elections have consequences.  :shrug:

As the father of a 9 year old daughter who could very well be impacted by Roe being overturned, I especially want to thank the Hillary = Trump liberals for this cluster####. 
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If overturning comes to pass I wonder what it will look like.  State Dependent with great liberty to formulate policy, or Federally dictated to all.  Roe was always, in my mind, fatally flawed.  That said it was a guideline and one that did try to balance interests and beliefs.  If what replaces it is draconian and does not take into consideration the beliefs and practices of much of the political spectrum, as it seems is the hope of some pushing this, that will lead to much strife and violation of the law.

Funny that many of the supporters of overturning Roe likely also fall into the demographic who would vehemently oppose Sharia law, yet they are seeking a law, primarily for religious beliefs, though some simply for philosophical beliefs unattached to religion.  (this later category is, in my mind, small.)

If there is a God or Gods may She, He, or they have mercy on our souls, if such exist.

 
Shula-holic said:
There's actually a lot of conservative women here who are supporting this stand.  But bigger picture this is a loser for Republicans.  Alabama is one of the few states that state lawmakers can do this and the majority not fear being voted out as a result.  I think it's a grandstanding position in that the rape/incest exception was removed trying to provoke a court fight for a state that doesn't have enough revenue as it is.  All we hear is how short the state is on funds and one of the few things I've ever agreed with Vivian Figures (AL state senate) on is that lawmakers who voted yes to this should have to fund the legal fees that come out of it.  
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The remnants of religion and superstition die hard.  My apologies to my religious friends for my skepticisms.  Perhaps the Grace of God will find me yet. As Bob Marley said, though in a different context, "there ain't no hiding place, from the Father of Creation".  I wonder if that saying frightens those who seek to do his will when that will is unclear. Maybe his will is compassion and support of our fellow travelers.  I sort of think so, if he be.

 
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Shula-holic said:
There's actually a lot of conservative women here who are supporting this stand.  But bigger picture this is a loser for Republicans.  Alabama is one of the few states that state lawmakers can do this and the majority not fear being voted out as a result.  I think it's a grandstanding position in that the rape/incest exception was removed trying to provoke a court fight for a state that doesn't have enough revenue as it is.  All we hear is how short the state is on funds and one of the few things I've ever agreed with Vivian Figures (AL state senate) on is that lawmakers who voted yes to this should have to fund the legal fees that come out of it.  
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Yeah has he ever been to Alabama?  The idea that this is a man woman thing is a head scratcher.  This is a religious non religious issue and a political issue 

 
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hammerva said:
Look forward to see how Nick Saban does a two step dance around this question.  Because you know he will be asked about it.  And you know his opinion will be valued.

So apparently Alabama is 49th rated when it comes to the infant mortality rate.   yeah they sure do care about the life of the child in that state
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Somebody has to be 49th.  I don’t have any idea why the state is that low, but it’s not because they don’t care about children.  Classy 

 
tommyGunZ said:
Elections have consequences.  :shrug:

As the father of a 9 year old daughter who could very well be impacted by Roe being overturned, I especially want to thank the Hillary = Trump liberals for this cluster####. 
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You live here in California, right? 

If Roe ever did get overturned the first thing that would happen here is that California would pass laws making it legal. I imagine the same would occur in several states. 

 
shader said:
Yeah has he ever been to Alabama?  The idea that this is a man woman thing is a head scratcher.  This is a religious non religious issue and a political issue 
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If by "He" you are referring to me I readily admit I know nothing of your culture, attitudes, or political climate. I have been through the state but have not spent time in it.  From the little I know the State is beautiful and the people that I have known from there, limited  sample though it may be, have always been gracious to me. 

 
timschochet said:
You live here in California, right? 

If Roe ever did get overturned the first thing that would happen here is that California would pass laws making it legal. I imagine the same would occur in several states. 
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If that option is available after a ruling.  I believe it would be, that this issue would likely return to the states, but who knows.  What if some sort of fundamental, penumbra dwelling right to uninterrupted incubation is found?  I am not predicting such, mind you, just wondering what may come.

 
hammerva said:
Look forward to see how Nick Saban does a two step dance around this question.  Because you know he will be asked about it.  And you know his opinion will be valued.
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This came up when Roy Moore was running. I don’t blame him for refusing to answer such questions. Particularly on abortion- any answer he gives is going to alienate some of his fans. If he wants to talk about it fine. But if he says “I’m just worried about football” then to me that’s perfectly acceptable. 

People point to Bear Bryant and how he should have talked about integration much earlier, and I think that’s an acceptable criticism, but it’s very different because integration would have improved his team. This issue has no affect on the sport of football. 

 
For those wondering about Stare Decisis, or Court precedent earlier in this thread I give you Franchise Tax Board v. Hyatt.  It was released by the Supremes two days ago.  does not ridicule precedent, but nearly so.

 
shader said:
Somebody has to be 49th.  I don’t have any idea why the state is that low, but it’s not because they don’t care about children.  Classy 
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Because we have Mississippi?

just kidding. Idk the list but I wouldn’t be surprised. 

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
For those wondering about Stare Decisis, or Court precedent earlier in this thread I give you Franchise Tax Board v. Hyatt.  It was released by the Supremes two days ago.  does not ridicule precedent, but nearly so.
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Brown vs Board of Education should be evidence for all time that there is nothing wrong with the Supreme Court overturning precedent. 

 
timschochet said:
Brown vs Board of Education should be evidence for all time that there is nothing wrong with the Supreme Court overturning precedent. 
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Precedence has never been inviolate nor should it.  that said, the case I cite takes lack of respect therefore to new heights, or lows, depending on one's perspectives.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
If that option is available after a ruling.  I believe it would be, that this issue would likely return to the states, but who knows.  What if some sort of fundamental, penumbra dwelling right to uninterrupted incubation is found?  I am not predicting such, mind you, just wondering what may come.
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We can get it from the Martians.

 
timschochet said:
Brown vs Board of Education should be evidence for all time that there is nothing wrong with the Supreme Court overturning precedent. 
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Although it didn’t actually overturn precedent. It distinguished Plessy rather than overturning it. (But I agree with your point.)

 
Sammy3469 said:
Sure it is.  The same legislature doesn’t adequately fund pre-natal care...ergo they don’t care.  They only care about grandstanding.  Shameful.
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It likely has much more to do with the extreme poverty, and honestly obesity/lack of healthy lifestyles in those areas, where an adequate health care facility is more than just a drive down the road.  You won't get much argument from me about our state legislature, but I do have a cousin who is a member from what is one of the few "close" districts, and it's hard for people like that who want to do the right thing to overcome the parties here.  Very few districts in this state are anything but far-right (most), and far-left (few, mostly minority).

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
If that option is available after a ruling.  I believe it would be, that this issue would likely return to the states, but who knows.  What if some sort of fundamental, penumbra dwelling right to uninterrupted incubation is found?  I am not predicting such, mind you, just wondering what may come.
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I don’t think it’s possible for the Supreme Court to find a constitutional prohibition against abortion.

Sometimes the Roe court is accused of legislating from the bench, but that’s rhetorical gobbledy####. What Roe did was strike down legislation; it did not enact legislation.

For something to be illegal, there has to be a law against it. There are no common law crimes at the federal level. So for abortion to be made a federal crime would require an act of Congress, not an act of the Supreme Court. I don’t think there’s any possible way for the Supreme Court to make abortion a federal crime.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I don’t think it’s possible for the Supreme Court to find a constitutional prohibition against abortion.

Sometimes the Roe court is accused of legislating from the bench, but that’s rhetorical gobbledy####. What Roe did was strike down legislation; it did not enact legislation.

For something to be illegal, there has to be a law against it. There are no common law crimes at the federal level. So for abortion to be made a federal crime would require an act of Congress, not an act of the Supreme Court. I don’t think there’s any possible way for the Supreme Court to make abortion a federal crime.
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I'm no lawyer, but aren't there currently laws that protect babies? Why couldn't the Court decide that such a law extends to babies still in the womb?

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I don’t think it’s possible for the Supreme Court to find a constitutional prohibition against abortion.

Sometimes the Roe court is accused of legislating from the bench, but that’s rhetorical gobbledy####. What Roe did was strike down legislation; it did not enact legislation.

For something to be illegal, there has to be a law against it. There are no common law crimes at the federal level. So for abortion to be made a federal crime would require an act of Congress, not an act of the Supreme Court. I don’t think there’s any possible way for the Supreme Court to make abortion a federal crime.
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I agree, but I remain open to being surprised, yet again.  If a right was found one could either expect legislation from the federal level or a spate of suits over state legislation if they did not recognize that right.  Right now, given the political climate, I put little past any body or any institution. We seem to love fighting each other, incessantly. 

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
timschochet said:
I'm no lawyer, but aren't there currently laws that protect babies? Why couldn't the Court decide that such a law extends to babies still in the womb?
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The federal law against murder makes it a crime to unlawfully kill a human being with malice aforethought. The federal definition of “human being” includes infants that are born alive, but does not expand the legal rights of homo sapiens before they are born alive.
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Also, I don't think the federal law against murder applies to murders perpetrated in state jurisdictions (unless committed in the course of other federal crimes, like bank robbery). I think it's just federal territories and at sea.

(There are, of course, state laws against murder. But the federal Supreme Court doesn't ultimately decide their scope. State supreme courts do.)

 
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NCCommish said:
Kind of depends on the precedent don't you think? 
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Absolutely.

timschochet said:
I'm no lawyer, but aren't there currently laws that protect babies? Why couldn't the Court decide that such a law extends to babies still in the womb?
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Neither am I, but if Roe is indeed overturned I would expect states to pass individual laws, some very quickly.  Would those laws then be challenged on 14th amendment grounds?

 
shader said:
Gotta say, seeing the 99 year jail time for abortion doctors puts a smile on my face 
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I might wonder if that were a good use of scarce state resources.  I understand if you have strong views on the impropriety of abortion that you would view this matter otherwise from me.  I do believe that your use of the phrase "puts a smile on my face" is calculated to get a rise. Not from me.  Flies must be expertly tied and well presented if one wants to get the big fish to rise.  You fell short in both regards.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
I might wonder if that were a good use of scarce state resources.  I understand if you have strong views on the impropriety of abortion that you would view this matter otherwise from me.
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Probably not.   But knowing what those doctors do, I’d rather see them there than someone who possesses weed.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
If overturning comes to pass I wonder what it will look like.  State Dependent with great liberty to formulate policy, or Federally dictated to all.  Roe was always, in my mind, fatally flawed.  That said it was a guideline and one that did try to balance interests and beliefs.  If what replaces it is draconian and does not take into consideration the beliefs and practices of much of the political spectrum, as it seems is the hope of some pushing this, that will lead to much strife and violation of the law.

Funny that many of the supporters of overturning Roe likely also fall into the demographic who would vehemently oppose Sharia law, yet they are seeking a law, primarily for religious beliefs, though some simply for philosophical beliefs unattached to religion.  (this later category is, in my mind, small.)

If there is a God or Gods may She, He, or they have mercy on our souls, if such exist.
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If there is a God, I can promise you it doesn’t give a lick about abortion.  It doesn’t seem to care about thousands of African children born infected with HIV that will end both the mother and child’s life after a brief tour on this rock defined by suffering.   

 
shader said:
Gotta say, seeing the 99 year jail time for abortion doctors puts a smile on my face 
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Wow. I like you shader. I know what you think about abortions and I can respect your viewpoint even if I disagree. But this comment is despicable. Doctors who perform abortions do not share your belief that abortion is the murder of an innocent child. It’s scary and depressing that you seem eager to assign deliberate evil intent to them. 

 
timschochet said:
Wow. I like you shader. I know what you think about abortions and I can respect your viewpoint even if I disagree. But this comment is despicable. Doctors who perform abortions do not share your belief that abortion is the murder of an innocent child. It’s scary and depressing that you seem eager to assign deliberate evil intent to them. 
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Tim, abortion doctors literally stick a device in a woman and suck out the little tiny humans that the mothers don’t want.  I like you too, but in my book that’s a bit more despicable. But hey, I recognize our opinions on morality come from a different place.

 
shader said:
Tim, abortion doctors literally stick a device in a woman and suck out the little tiny humans that the mothers don’t want.  I like you too, but in my book that’s a bit more despicable. But hey, I recognize our opinions on morality come from a different place.
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That’s not the point. The point is that the doctors’ morality is coming from a different place than yours, yet you’re assigning your morality to them and calling them evil. That’s wrong. 

 
timschochet said:
That’s not the point. The point is that the doctors’ morality is coming from a different place than yours, yet you’re assigning your morality to them and calling them evil. That’s wrong. 
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Don’t doctors make a decision if they want to perform abortions? No one is forcing them.

 
timschochet said:
That’s not the point. The point is that the doctors’ morality is coming from a different place than yours, yet you’re assigning your morality to them and calling them evil. That’s wrong. 
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I’m not political so I won’t be voting for any of this Tim.  I’m just telling you I smiled when I saw it, as that’s not a group of people I have an iota of respect for.  I’m allowed to have opinions on them.  If you think I’m wrong because I think they are performing despicable acts, so be it.  

What makes you the decision-maker on what is “wrong”?

 
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shader said:
Tim, abortion doctors literally stick a device in a woman and suck out the little tiny humans that the mothers don’t want.  I like you too, but in my book that’s a bit more despicable. But hey, I recognize our opinions on morality come from a different place.
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What’s despicable is men legislative this and then not providing proper funding to ensure each woman is taken care of to ensure a successful pregnancy, after all it’s the embryo that matters the most, right?

 
shader said:
I’m not political so I won’t be voting for any of this Tim.  I’m just telling you I smiled when I saw it, as that’s not a group of people I have an iota of respect for.  I’m allowed to have opinions on them.  If you think I’m wrong because I think they are performing despicable acts, so be it.  

What makes you the decision-maker on what is “wrong”?
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I’m not calling anyone evil (you didn’t either, but that’s the implication of your remarks.) 

 
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