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Abortion vs Suicide (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KCitons
- Start date
For #1 - sometimes never, but, for most not until they get enough life experiences and education.
For #2 - we'd have to accept your conception definition of life in order to even have to say it is legal up until the point that the state statute for abortion says.
zoonation
Footballguy
Unfortunately, having one without the assistance of a medical professional is now a very real possibility in Georgia. Well, until the Supreme Court strikes this ridiculous law.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
So you're saying, not only should a woman be allowed to make that decision about her body, but she should also be afforded professional care to make sure that the abortion is done properly? And that a person should be allowed to make the decision about their own body when it comes to suicide. But, they should not have professional care to make sure it's done as properly?
zoonation
Footballguy
As I said earlier, what you are describing is already the case in many socially progressive democracies. Women have absolute autonomy over their own bodies, and assisted suicide is available if certain criteria is met.
zoonation
Footballguy
no. i am not saying that at all.
for clarity, I am saying that women should have access to professional care if she chooses to have an abortion. I am also saying that a person who makes the decision to commit (assisted) suicide should have access to professional help in carrying that out.
KCitons
Footballguy
The only requirement for abortion is to be pregnant. (duh!)
What are the requirements for assisted suicide? Why does there need to be any requirements other than the desire? We don't apply any to pregnant women.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Seems fair. I'm sure all religious people would graciously accept your framing of their worldview.
zoonation
Footballguy
In Canada, there are specific legislative requirements that must be met in order for licensed physicians to perform an assisted suicide. The main criteria is terminal illness.
"desire" is not a good enough reason to justify suicide. decisions about suicide that are not related to terminal illness are often made by people who suffer from mental illness.
KCitons
Footballguy
zoonation
Footballguy
Again, you are conflating concepts. It is obvious to me that you do not see that, so i will just stop here.
Cheers.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Nobody will ever force me into decisions with my own body (good, bad or otherwise). I'd kill them before I'd let them make me a slave.
Thusly abortions and suicide are options (good, bad or otherwise) for whatever someone else chooses to do.
Thusly abortions and suicide are options (good, bad or otherwise) for whatever someone else chooses to do.
KCitons
Footballguy
Not really. People want to say that it's acceptable for a doctor to perform an abortion on a completely healthy mother and fetus. But, they don't want to say that it's acceptable for a doctor to assist a suicide on a person that suffers from a mental health issue.
Health has nothing do with it when the mother and fetus are healthy.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
zoonation
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
This is how it works now, at least in California. There is no legal penalty, exactly, when somebody attempts suicide. But here’s what happens:
1. The authorities try to prevent it if they can- so, for example, a policeman or fireman has a legal duty to pull somebody away from the bridge, talk them down, attempt to disarm them, etc. They can’t just stand there and let it happen.
2. Once the person has been stopped they are either escorted by the police to a hospital, where they are offered medical care, or they are sent to jail overnight, after which a judge assigns medical care.
Now this is not a perfect system obviously but it makes sense to me. The reason that I want suicide illegal is not to punish people who attempt it, but because I want the authorities to try to stop it if they can.
timschochet
Footballguy
This is correct; it’s exactly how I feel. The first stance has nothing to do with the second, and your comparison is completely invalid. There is no contradiction here.
KCitons
Footballguy
Why?
When you use the argument that a woman has absolute say over her body. And you want professional medical assistance. (we haven't even discussed who should pay for it)
timschochet
Footballguy
This isn’t true.
1. I don’t want you to take heroin. My tax money, and my vote and support, is going to a police force that will stop you from taking heroin. Even if you have to go to prison, I don’t want you taking it.
2. I don’t want you to kill yourself (in most situations.) If you try to jump off a bridge I want the police to pull you back.
There are other limitations as well.
Only required when forcing those beliefs on to me. Like the person I responded to trying to push life starting at conception. If you want to over turn Roe v Wade you're going to have to do better than using your imaginary beliefs as justification. That's all.
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timschochet
Footballguy
It’s up to you to make the argument that this is a contradiction, not up to me to explain why it isn’t.
But again I need to point out that, even if it was a contradiction, it wouldn’t change my mind. Consistency is not a fundamental value in the establishment of law, nor even a desirable one.
KCitons
Footballguy
I have pointed it out numerous times. The statement that a woman has sole decision over her body. Is this just something that is being afforded to women? Does that mean that a woman should be allowed assisted suicide?
Nobody here has said anything to differentiate the two in regards to the above statement. They've just said over and over that they are not comparable. Without reason.
In a country where we strive for equality, doesn't this fly in the face of that?
timschochet
Footballguy
1. The statement that a woman has sole decision over her body has to do with reproductive rights. It has nothing to do with suicide, or drug use, or anything else. In those instances and others, sometimes she has the right to do stuff and sometimes she doesn’t. None of that is connected to reproductive rights.
2. Reproductive rights are only afforded to women as they are the only ones who can reproduce.
3. A woman or man should only be allowed assisted suicide in extreme medical conditions.
4. I just gave you the reason why they are not comparable. Reproductive rights are unique rights and can’t be compared to other rights.
5. This has nothing to do with equality. I take it you’re a man? If so, if you can figure out how to reproduce then you can have reproductive rights as well.
Hope that answers you.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
I can understand the uniqueness of reproductive ability. I think it discounts that part of the fetus comes from a male part of the reproductive process. That part is eliminated by saying that the woman has sole decision. For me, this is where all outside consideration is lost. For either abortion or suicide. It's their sole decision. How we handle the process is where the discussion continues.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
A woman has an abortion when they don't want to go through the term of their medical condition, pregnancy. It very much has to do with health.
KCitons
Footballguy
And a person commits suicide when they don't want to go through the term of their mental health condition. Which is usually the rest of their life.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
There are hundreds of different reasons people commit suicide... perhaps thousands.
Again, I'm not opposed to suicide when it's a mature rational decision. But it's far easier for me to rationalize abortion given we understand the reasons a woman may want to do it... whereas there are many reasons people commit suicide that we don't understand. Our lack of understanding many reasons for suicide is not enough for me to make it illegal (except maybe for minors), but these are two very different issues. One is easy to grasp. The other is far harder.
KCitons
Footballguy
It's not up to us to grasp the reasons for either. If it's easier for your to rationalize abortion, that's your choice. It's easier for me to rationalize someone that want's to commit suicide. They are making a decision that takes only their life. Not an unborn child's.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I completely disagree with the bolded. Many people who commit suicide leave behind loved ones who want answers. And the suicide may have turned those people's live upside down.
The loss of a fetus does no such thing.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I'm still struggling to understand this idea of "rationalizing suicide". There's no need to make it legal or illegal. People are going to kill themselves with or without anyone's permission and with total disregard for the legality of it. If you're trying to make a case for *assisted* suicide on demand, science fiction has already presented it as a possibility
KCitons
Footballguy
Unbelievable.
Does it effect the father at all? You know, the person who has no say in the matter. Even though part of that fetus is made up of his DNA.
Let's stop holding parents responsible for the actions of, or against, their children if you don't want them to be responsible for them in the womb.
KCitons
Footballguy
I see it as applying the same support to both. If we want abortion on demand, why shouldn't we have assisted suicide on demand?
Amused to Death
Footballguy
First, we already assisted suicide in some states. We also have suicide in every state for people who want it. You're trying to equate "death with dignity" with choosing to carry a fetus to full term. Death with dignity is more than just choosing to die. Its having the right to say enough when faced with a terminal illness. If you're trying to equate abortion with someone just giving up on life and seeking assistance to kill themselves, why do they need assistance? IOW, you're looking for "safe" suicide.
Do you think there's a need or demand for "safe" suicide?
ETA: I almost get the vibe that you're looking to create a "gotcha" moment for people who are pro-choice. IMO, there is no case where abortion and suicide should be "well you're for one, why not the other?". Suicide does not require assistance.
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zoonation
Footballguy
I understand what you are saying. A fetus is a life. Therefore it should be treated like a living, breathing human.
You wont bridge the gap (by appealing to logic) with those who dont share that view.
Suggesting that we should assist anyone who wants to commit suicide won’t get you there.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
The father knows why the fetus is no more, and the fetus wasn't the father's bread winner in their home.
WTF?!?!
This has to be fishing.
The law is a double standard on two fronts.
1) Biological fathers of an unborn child have no legal say in the abortion decision...yet are legally held liable for child support if the woman chooses to have the child...even if the father would have preferred abortion. (Not saying men are victims...)
2) Physicians can legally assist killing an unborn human, even when the mother is perfectly healthy and sane. But physicians cannot assist in killing a born human, even if that human is perfectly healthy and sane.
IMO there needs to be consistency. But it kind of is what it is.
KCitons
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
I'm sure in your mind, the father is perfectly fine with the decision. And just to be clear, your comment was
This is a very one sided look at the situation. I get it if you don't think that the two are comparable. But to think that there are fathers out there that don't have their lives turned upside down because the woman has sole decision is just being closed minded.
zoonation
Footballguy
So, in your mind, terminating a pregnancy (what you describe as killing an unborn “human”) is the same as killing (murdering?) an autonomous living breathing person?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Anyone who has their life turned upside down because someone else had an abortion is not attached to the fetus that was killed, but is attached to their personification of that fetus. While the grief they experience is real, that's nothing compared to having your life turned upside down because your parent, your spouse, your son/daughter or bother/sister killed themselves.
Again, your comparison of abortion to suicide is really odd given how different they are. But what is more odd is your refusal to accept how different they are.
KCitons
Footballguy
Whatever. I really don't care about your opinion anymore.
Is this where I'm supposed to give you the middle finger?
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
But you do that for the societies benefit because of the collateral damage that comes along with it. Not to force me into/out-of anything.
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joffer
Footballguy
I don't have a problem with any of that except the jail part. not really what I was picturing when you say "against the law".
timschochet
Footballguy
My (very limited) understanding is they throw the person in jail if it appears that the guy is simply going to run away from the hospital and immediately attempt suicide again. It’s a temporary fix.
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