Wacky Baseball Rules Question (1 Viewer)

Many years ago, a friend of mine asked this question to a baseball rules expert from The Sporting News and I am interested if his answer is supported by the rules and official scoring. Here was the question:

At the start of a new inning, the team coming to bat does not send out anyone as a third base coach. The first batter singles and the next batter doubles to set up runners on second and third. The next batter is hit by a pitch to load the bases.

The next batter hits a chopper off of home plate that is very high and only travels 10 or 15 feet just inside the first base line. The pitcher and catcher converge and the catcher fields the ball and throws to first but the batter beats the throw.

Meanwhile, the runner on third forgot the bases were loaded and never ran home for fear of being tagged out. The runners that were on first and second advanced to second and third on the play. 

The original runner on third base, not wanting to draw attention to the fact that he did not run, now stands slightly off the bag where the third base coach would normally be while the second runner on third base stands behind him with his foot on the base.

No one on the fielding team noticed that the runner on third did not run home on the ball chopped off of home plate, and the team is not aware that that runner is now standing off of third base.

The pitcher throws the next pitch and the batter hits a home run.  All 4 base runners score then the batter in the proper order and none of them passes another runner on the way to home plate.

So the question becomes . . . would this be officially scored as a 5 run home run? None of the runners left the field of play. None of them ran out of the baseline. And the fielding team made no attempt to tag the runner or appeal that there were too many runners on third base. 

The expert that originally answered the question said that in his mind, yes, this would be scored as a 5 run home run. Do people generally agree with his opinion, and if not, what rule would be cited that would not allow this play to stand (and would not allow the batter to receive 5 RBI)?

Since the defense never got R3 out and there is no rule against standing between bases the play should stand and 5 runs should count provided that they scored in order with no runner passing any other runner. 

This is an odd situation that is most likely not addressed anywhere in the rule book as it could be completely unforeseen as an issue so I would expect it to stand....although I don't see this actually ever happening in reality. 

It's addressed in a comment to rule 7.08.

http://www.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2007/07_the_runner.pdf

Runners are declared out when 'abandoning his effort to touch the next base' which is what he would be doing by standing in the coach's box. 

Flash1 said:

Runner on third is out. He was out of the baseline and he made a move to go towards the dugout.

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Baseline only matters if a play is being made on the runner.  Up until that point the runner can run/stand wherever they want (within reason - not in the dugout for instance).  Based on the description above just standing slightly back of the foul line does not constitute a move towards the dugout.  This could have been his initial position at the time of the pitch and he never deviated from it. 

rodg12 said:

It's addressed in a comment to rule 7.08.

http://www.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2007/07_the_runner.pdf

Runners are declared out when 'abandoning his effort to touch the next base' which is what he would be doing by standing in the coach's box. 

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Based on the description above the runner is not "abandoning his effort to touch the next base" in my opinion.  He is on the field without moving in any direction waiting for the play as if he is leading off.  The umpire would have to make a judgement call deeming that a runner standing just outside the foul line has "abandon his effort to touch the next base".  Based on the description I would not deem this to be the case.  It is a judgement call. 

I cannot find anywhere in the rule book that a runner cannot be in that position if the defense miraculously couldn't figure out that he was a baserunner.  If no play is made on him and the defense ignored him he should be in play and allowed to run. Nowhere can I find in the rule book that this would not be allowed. 

Gally said:

Based on the description above the runner is not "abandoning his effort to touch the next base" in my opinion.  He is on the field without moving in any direction waiting for the play as if he is leading off.  The umpire would have to make a judgement call deeming that a runner standing just outside the foul line has "abandon his effort to touch the next base".  Based on the description I would not deem this to be the case.  It is a judgement call. 

I cannot find anywhere in the rule book that a runner cannot be in that position if the defense miraculously couldn't figure out that he was a baserunner.  If no play is made on him and the defense ignored him he should be in play and allowed to run. Nowhere can I find in the rule book that this would not be allowed. 

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By stopping and standing he is abandoning his effort. Standing and stopping literally no effort.

rodg12 said:

By stopping and standing he is abandoning his effort. Standing and stopping literally no effort.

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so when somebody leads off and are stopped and standing they should be called out?  That is essentially what he is doing.  He is waiting for the play to happen before continuing on. 

The entire scenario is completely far fetched but just because a runner is standing still does not mean he is abandoning his effort per the intent of the rule in the book. 

Flash1 said:

He abandoned his effort to reach his next base (Home Plate).

Come on you're being obtuse

Just not true. 

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I am not being obtuse at all.   This situation would never happen in real life.   I am making the leap of the outlandish question from the beginning and trying to confirm if the rule book has any rule against it.  There is nothing in the rule book about this situation on whether this would be an issue (provided the fielding team suspended all powers of observation and forgot about that extra runner).  Assuming the defense never tried to make a play on the extra runner I see no difference between him standing there and any other player taking a lead.  They are holding and waiting for an opportunity to advance to the next base.  They are not abandoning their effort to get to the next base. 

And the baseline comment is 100% true.  The "baseline" is irrelevant unless there is a play being made on the runner.  The runner can take any path they want to the next base and the runner sets the baseline once the defense attempts to make a play.  From that point the runner must make a direct path to the base (within 3' of either side of the straight line from that position to the base).  For example, a batter hits a ball and goes for a double.  They typically round first base by going well outside the marked foul line on their way to first.  There is no issue with this because no play is being made on the runner at that time.  If the runner wanted to take a path that circled the mound on the 3B side and then to first the runner could do that with no penalty assessed by the umpires.  The only "penalty" would be the time it took the runner to make that indirect route. 

FWIW, when my friend submitted this question to the rules expert 30+ years ago, he went over the various rules that might apply and did not find any that were violated (at least in his opinion). He said if he were the ump or official scorer, he would let the play stand as a 5 run home run. IIRC, he addressed the "abandoning an effort to touch the next base" argument and felt that that was reserved for instances when a batter or runner stopped running to avoid directly running into an out. The distinction in those types of plays was that the fielder had the ball and was blocking the path to the base the batter/runner would be attempting to get to.

His reasoning was that if the original runner on third base HAD started running home and a fielder had the ball and blocked the path to home plate and THEN the runner stopped running, he would have been out for stopping and failing to run (ie, "giving himself up." But in this instance, the fielding team made no attempt to make a play on the runner and also neglected to cover home plate. So he felt that the runner's failure to run was not a rules violation.

Walking Boot said:

I used to wonder about this back in Little League. My coach made us tag the base after every pitch if we were leading off the bag. Taking a lead off first, pitcher throws, and you had to go back and re-tag the base before the next pitch. Every pitch... lead a couple of steps, and if you didn't take off and steal, quick jog back and re-tap then lead again. 

But I never found in the rule book that you had to do this. You can just hang out whenever in between bases for as many consecutive pitches as you want, right? Is there any requirement to establish your "current" base?

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There is no requirement to establish your current base.  You never have to go back to the base.  

While they were slowly circling the bases I run to the dugout and grab a spare baseball. Then I would wait just in front of home plate and tag all five of them. The inning is over in 2 outs carry over to the next.

ClownCausedChaos2 said:

While they were slowly circling the bases I run to the dugout and grab a spare baseball. Then I would wait just in front of home plate and tag all five of them. The inning is over in 2 outs carry over to the next.

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Only in Tee Ball when they announced that the batter was the last batter.  Otherwise you can't do that...duh. 

Gally said:

Only in Tee Ball when they announced that the batter was the last batter.  Otherwise you can't do that...duh. 

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Ah.  That's probably what I was thinking of.  Carry on.

My daughter played a lot of travel softball.  I know it is a different sport, but many of the rules are the same.

I once saw a play where the base runner was going home, slide, and missed home plate.  The catcher got the ball, but never tagged the runner.  They continue play.  The scoring is the run counted.

I think I saw this in high school softball too.

Based on this, the extra runner should count as a run.  He was never called out by the umpire.   

Marvelous said:

My daughter played a lot of travel softball.  I know it is a different sport, but many of the rules are the same.

I once saw a play where the base runner was going home, slide, and missed home plate.  The catcher got the ball, but never tagged the runner.  They continue play.  The scoring is the run counted.

I think I saw this in high school softball too.

Based on this, the extra runner should count as a run.  He was never called out by the umpire.   

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In this case it becomes an appeal play.  The catcher doesn't have to tag the runner and if the runner goes into the dugout then the team in the field can appeal that the runner missed home plate.  If the ump saw that they would then rule an out.  It is on the onus of the team in the field to identify a missed base by a runner and hope the ump saw the same thing for the out to be called.  Once the next pitch occurs the team in the field lose the opportunity to appeal a missed base by the runner and they become safe.

Flash1 said:

Gally said:

Baseline only matters if a play is being made on the runner.

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Just not true

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He is actually right.  Out of the baseline rules, the baseline is not established until a play on that runner.  So if a runner rounds 3rd and we will say 6 ft and the throw is home.  At that point it is established.

What is a base path?

The base path is defined in Rule 5.09(b)(1):

"A runner's base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely."

The wording is important. The base path is established (created) "when the tag attempt occurs." in other words, until there is a tag attempt, there is no base path. And then this: The base runner is out if "running more than three feet away from the baseline to avoid being tagged." At the moment the base path is established (when the tag is attempted), the runner cannot veer more than three feet to the left or right of the base path for the purpose of avoiding a tag.

It's important that a base path only exists when a fielder is attempting to make a tag. At all other times there is no base path (no such thing) and in fact the runner is free (at his peril) to run pretty much anywhere he wishes. There are limits to this (see Rule 5.09(b)(10) regarding "making a travesty of the game"); however, the central point remains: the base runner creates his own base path.
 

Here's where it gets tricky

It gets tricky in a pickle. When a runner is caught between bases and fielders have the runner in a pickle (a rundown), each time the fielders exchange the ball and the runner reverses direction, the runner has created a new base path . Each time you have this reversal you have a new base path because you have a new fielder attempting to make a tag (and therefore a new "straight line to the base"), and so you have to adjust your view of the base path accordingly. (On a side note, obstruction also comes into play in this scenario.)

This clip shows a really good example of a pickle that goes on for several throws. Notice how, after each throw, the effort each fielder makes to get out of the way of the runner to avoid obstruction