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I'm up for the baby step of simply practice what you're preaching. We can move to the bigger things once we've shown we can handle the small things without deflecting
I am game for everything you list above as long as you can somehow assure me that everyone is going to start with the exact same lot in life. And yes, I am aware, this is where the discussion goes silent or is deflected to some other tangent. Happens every single time.
I'm game....question I've always had is how do we make certain everyone starts at the same point?I love it when a plan comes together.
its two fold CommishI'm up for the baby step of simply practice what you're preaching. We can move to the bigger things once we've shown we can handle the small things without deflecting
I am game for everything you list above as long as you can somehow assure me that everyone is going to start with the exact same lot in life. And yes, I am aware, this is where the discussion goes silent or is deflected to some other tangent. Happens every single time.
Which cliche is that? When you start talking about something you weren't talking before when asked a tough question what is that called? This little snippet is a good example. As I said before, if you can assure me that everyone starts with the same lot in life we can get rid of all those things that put in place to attempt to level the playing field because we DON'T all start with the same lot in life.its two fold CommishI'm up for the baby step of simply practice what you're preaching. We can move to the bigger things once we've shown we can handle the small things without deflecting
I am game for everything you list above as long as you can somehow assure me that everyone is going to start with the exact same lot in life. And yes, I am aware, this is where the discussion goes silent or is deflected to some other tangent. Happens every single time.
#1 you gotta change yourself right? I try very hard to be colorblind in this world and call things fair and equal. That's me - my soul, my character, and I control that
#2 society - and in that, we cannot directly change what's happening and the changes come slow vs fast. The pendulum has swung from treating people differently because they're black to now, treating people differently because they're white.
its not deflection to discuss things - ya'll need to get over that cliche
why should everyone start the same place in life ? nobody is naive enough to think that and to be honest? I got no problem with people of all colors and sexual choices and religions or whatever starting in a better place in life than my kids got to start
Basically you are saying that you can acknowledge that people start with inherent advantages they didn't earn, but we cant try to adjust for them? Or if we try to you dont want it to effect you or your family?
everyone on the planet is born with inherent advantages - you do know that right ?
You tell me....you're the one
about equality and being treated equal Yes...you've told me and again, you DON'T have a problem with them not having to overcome obstacles prior to that that other kids did have to overcome. It always comes down to this. You look at the specific point in time and not the entire race...every single time.
Those aren't my list...they are the ones you brought up. There's no justification I am making. I am simply telling you why they exist in this ###### up world we are living in. And if you think Obama's influence was bad, I hope you're watching what is going on today with all the moral corruption going on in this administration. It's the ultimate "hold my beer" event. It's bizarre you'd even bring up Obama given all these injustices have been around since the country began. Do you view him in that light because he was the first President to pick at that scab to show how ###### up this country really is and forced us to look in the mirror a bit more than we wanted to?
Lets stick to the US. In this country people INHERIT advantage because that's the way the system was designed. There's a huge difference.Stealthycat said:
Right. They ARE all wrong and we DO have them today. They are the things that people INHERIT you mention above. You're arguing with yourself it seems. All the things you are pushing back against in your list are things in place because the system is set up so that people INHERIT advantages by design. If they didn't start with those inequalities, there would be no need to attempt to level the playing field. So you either are ok with blowing up the system that is slanted to people starting at different places via INHERITANCE or you are ok with evening the playing field as they go. Can't have it both waysStealthycat said:
which has nothing to do with the cards you're dealt at birth - each person is responsible for themselves, how they attack life, how they choose to liveThe Commish said:You tell me....you're the one
we ALL have things to overcome regardless of what circumstances we're born into - you know this tooThe Commish said:
they are on my list because I'm not afraid to call them what they are - are you ?The Commish said:
Shift in focus again...more subtle this time, but a shift nonetheless. This isn't about "responsibility" it's about the hand we're dealt. You want equality then the two options I listed above are it. That isn't up for debate
you have a hard time seeing the separations in talking about how you're born into this world and then how society discriminates against based on laws, quota's, rules etc that are in place targeting people of a certain sex or skin color etcShift in focus again...more subtle this time, but a shift nonetheless. This isn't about "responsibility" it's about the hand we're dealt. You want equality then the two options I listed above are it. That isn't up for debate
I went over with you your FAFSA stuff many months ago and what you should have done. Play the game or not...the decision not to was the problem there. There is no separation to be made here. Things are either equal or they aren't. When they aren't equal, trying to make them more equal is not "discrimination". It's completely unacceptable to say "person X, you start in the #1 position. person Y, you start in the #599883775 position 6 miles behind, but everything else will remain constant because the race has to be 'fair' ". I mean, sports even get how absurd that it. There's a reason there are staggered starts in track and field races.
everything else isn't constant
Right....because the starting points aren't consistent. Now you're starting to get it.
Well, I thought you were starting to get it...maybe not. The inverse is true today...the gifted are started AHEAD, not behind thus the need for adjustment during the race. I am unaware of a single program where funding is provided that does not treat people of the same economic circumstances the same. If it's a white kid who's family has millions they are treated the same way as a black kid who's family has millions. Do you have some specific government programs in mind where this isn't the case?
Maybe...maybe not. A LOT of times, obstacles prove to be too much regardless of ability. This is where we look at the rule rather than the exception to make a sound decision.
ONLY if the parents choose to keep the children under their purview as a dependent. That's on the parent, not FAFSA. I am fortunate that my parents didn't weight me down like that and saw the long term best way to navigate was to let me go.
No offense but I believe I read statements like this during the Bush years. The idea that conservatives are “on their way out” is a silly thing people tell themselves, but it’s totally unverifiable and judging from who is in the White House, who controls the senate, events in England...it’s not true
The far left and the far right dislike each other so much not because they are at opposite ends of the spectrum but because they are fighting over the same spot.
You just totally confused me. Here wikkid sets me straight, and you come along and dump bollocks on it.
I just think - like you alluded to- the far right and far left aren't particularly different at all.
I'm kidding, BTW. Yeah, I can see that, and the far right and far left are not really that far apart in terms of procedure and result for the most part. Neither has private property, both bow at the altar of the totality of the state, and both have their laws enforced by an executive branch of gov't that controls virtually everything, but they're different (theoretically if not in practice) in terms of nationalism, rationalism, and internationalism. The right loves it some nationally belligerent internationalism with a side of mysticism. The left seeks to make the international universal as well as the rational.
Well said. Just thinking about The Lives of Others and imagine WW2 ended with some kind of treaty where NAZI Germany stayed intact. The movie wouldn't have been any different. Secret police, 1 party rule, restriction of the arts, etc. It's the same country, just a different facade.I'm kidding, BTW. Yeah, I can see that, and the far right and far left are not really that far apart in terms of procedure and result for the most part. Neither has private property, both bow at the altar of the totality of the state, and both have their laws enforced by an executive branch of gov't that controls virtually everything, but they're different (theoretically if not in practice) in terms of nationalism, rationalism, and internationalism. The right loves it some nationally belligerent internationalism with a side of mysticism. The left seeks to make the international universal as well as the rational.
So there.
Thanks. A lot of people on both the right and left would like a word with us. In theory, they're very different animals. In practice, often not so much.
Party animals. Everything is about the party. Not the country or the welfare of man, but just the survival of the party. I don't know how it would even be possible, but I do wish we could eliminate political parties.
And yet Washington (IIRC) seemed to have hopes that a two party system would keep splintering factions in check by keeping them from power, thereby acting as a unifying force for the good of the Republic.
Yeah. I HATED him when he was alive - he was the most Catholic, true-believer, alley-fighter of the Kennedys and was beating my first political hero - Clean Gene McCarthy - but, if the books are right about the morality he started finding working with the UFW in '66 thru the early portion of his presidential campaign, we missed out on as much as you would have if Reagan had been shot on the campaign trail.
Yeah, I think Kennedy and Reagan are apt comparisons. Can I make a quick aside, though: I'm more of a Goldwater guy than a Reaganite, who I thought had lots of problems with civil rights especially. Goldwater was againt the CRA of '64, and I'm for it, but other than that, I find his staunchly anti-government views to have extended to the personal morality of people, which I would have preferred to the Phyllis Schlafly and televangelist brigade Reagan seemed to attract and empower.
as i have said more than any one thing in this forum - turns out everything is moral. it's the arbiters & arbitration of that morality which screamed for opposition. i grok you, maaaan
