Well, if we spend money on the needy how can we afford tax cuts for the rich and corporate bailouts?Regardless, crickets now. 10 years ago you'd have thought the world was ending with the US adding $1.5T for the first couple years of the recession.
Now it's
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The deficit is over a trillion dollars a year. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
The Commish
Footballguy
To be fair, it should be crickets. That talking point is history...never to be brought up by the "sides" ever again.Regardless, crickets now. 10 years ago you'd have thought the world was ending with the US adding $1.5T for the first couple years of the recession.
Now it's
Stealthycat
Footballguy
yep, the House and Senate and Presidency have now established that anytime there is deemed a crisis - 2-3 or even 5 trillion can be borrowed/printed/given and added to the debt ...
sho nuff
Footballguy
Well that and he had already been racking up the debt in this administration before this crisis...
James Daulton
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
yeah....you may just now be seeing it personally, but it was well established prior to this crisis.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
about the same pace as Obamasho nuff said:
no - I hate it .... keeping pace was a success, this trillions dollar thing that Congress passed? bi-partisan and dollar amounts that none of us can really comprehend :(James Daulton said:
at this point, after the 9 trillion under Obama and this ... I don't know even know how much under Trump .... we can all safely just ignore the debt now until it comes a calling and completely implodes the world's economies. Its no longer a DNC or GOP issue - they're all in on it
and the US people allow it and even want it :(
sho nuff
Footballguy
About the same pace as Obama? Well no, that isn't accurate. Nor is it a great comparison of a President pushing us out of a recession and one that was handed a growing and good economy. But you knew that already.
dkp993
Footballguy
Considering the overwhelming majority of people swimming in debt (a huge portion of it is Credit Card) this is the least surprising statement in history.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Obama was God - there, I agree with you - happy ?
Obama's years added 9 trillion - 8 years, 9 trillion on top of the 9 trillion that was accumulated over the entire existence of our Govt
Trump has added what, 3-4 trillion before this recent add ?
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Now what's Trump's total including the current stimulus? If you're going to include all of Obama's, which included the recession stimulus, then please add all of Trump's.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
personal debt is their choice
Fed Debt is a few hundred elected officials and 25 Trillion
a bit of a difference
Stealthycat
Footballguy
yes and that's on Trump's administration
right now, there needs to be a 25% across the board cuts in all non-essential Govt spending - they need to put 1 trillion a year towards paying that debt DOWN
but they won't, Govt spends, they don't care because its not their money, people don't care because with 25 trillion, might as well be 250 trillion because it will never be paid anyway and free is free right ?
dkp993
Footballguy
It’s not at all and you’re the one who said the “US people allow it and even want it”. I agree. Which is why our elected officials continue to rack up debt at the same rate individuals seem to be. No one is taking responsibility yet it’s our fault. We have the power with our vote but continue to support the people making these decisions. We need to take the power back ( to quote Rage).
*Also to be clear I’m not addressing the Covid stimulus but speaking to more of a systemic problem
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sho nuff
Footballguy
I didn't claim Obama was a god.
I pointed out the fact that comparing adding to the deficit during the recovery to a recession and adding more to it during a period of growth and prosperity are pretty different things.
You aren't comparing apples to apples.
The Commish
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
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Hawkeye21
Footballguy
The thing I don't get is why Trump added to the deficit in the first place. I thought he promised he would get rid of it instead of adding to it. Now that crap has hit the fan he's really screw with the deficit. If he was smart he would have wiped out as much of the deficit as possible when things were going well.
timschochet
Footballguy
I could argue, with great accuracy, that he added to it because he’s a Republican. And that’s what Republicans do.
rockaction
Footballguy
Clinton never balances the budget in '96-'98 if Republicans aren't forcing him to. It was Republican leadership, considered deficit hawkish and draconian that got those measures passed to balance the budget. Then Clinton took credit for it (after he tabbed his wife to promote single-payer and deficits out the wazoo) and blamed the gov't shutdown over spending on the Rs and got away with it because of a complicit media and the public's penchant for supporting programs that require spending without offsetting revenue inlays. That's just an incorrect statement above.
timschochet
Footballguy
You keep making this argument but at a certain point it will, which will come when servicing the debt is simply too high a portion of the annual budget, and we’re slowly but surely getting there.at arguing 'my guy had less debt than your guy'.
The bottom line, you have got to have figured out by now: IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!!
As for your notion of the trillion dollar coin- there is a historical example of a country that tried this: Germany in 1923. The result was catastrophic, which is probably why nobody else has tried it since.
shadrap
Footballguy
I was disappointed in Obama's disregard for the deficit. It's like if you give money away problems go away.
This situation we have now is different & I'm not sure about anything, but it appears we have a lot of experts in this deal on this board. It also appears these board experts have a political objective. whatever it takes, take down Trump!
good luck & health to you & yours. It's a shame that the political divide cannot be bridged during times like this but it is what it is.
shadrap
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
shadrap
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
The US Treasury handing out $600 billion to people for nothing in return is no different than handing $600 billion to defense spending for nothing in return.
Our current deficit reflects around 50 years of defense spending, plus interest. The US could pint on coin, deposit it with the Fed, and wipe away the debt. What would change? Seriously, what would change? And if there is a good answer to that question, then we shouldn't be spending what we spend on defense. If there is not a good answer to that question, then there is no answer to handing out money for reasons other than defense.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
We'd probably get a whole slew of heist movies about groups trying to steal the trillion dollar coins?
The General
Footballguy
We were already spending that 600 Billion though. It was in the budget we were approaching a trillion in debt.
The budget was what, 4 and a half Trillion before this and they just double it in the span of a couple months? Much less money taken in, this is all straight onto the debt sheet.
At that point why not double that, triple that, who cares?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
So, if I'm following your logic, all we need to do is budget for it before we do it, and then it's fine.
The Commish
Footballguy
This situation IS different. The last one was a financial crisis...this is a viral crisis. The cherry on top of this admin's legacy though will always be the tax cuts that will continue to cost us trillions for the next several years and lasted about 5 months in terms of "stimulus" while over 80% of the monies went to less than 5% of the people.
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Our wealth inequality combined does make traditional forms of inflation very unlikely. Particularly as long as there is so much global demand for our safe government assets.
The General
Footballguy
It was already bad when it was a trillion sand then it is quadrupled in the span of a couple months?
Then you print a coin and it’s all gone.
Why not print 20 of them and give everyone ponies?
Like I said I have no clue about this stuff really but they should start making these pronto.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
When the nation, let alone the world, is deleveraging, then there's really no reason not to.
Basically when there are numerous deflationary forces in play, an inflationary force such as printing trillion dollar coins, not only is very unlikely to cause any damage, it is actually just as helpful as the Fed just buying more government debt.
It's when there are numerous inflationary forces in play that it wouldn't be a good idea to do it.
Could actually be more helpful if used to help the people directly vs going through the banking system. Of course, helping the populace in general is not really an objective of Trump. He would just find ways to further enrich his cronies.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Yep. There are many reasons why I'm no longer a conservative/republican, but if I had to choose one reason why I am not, it's the ridiculous amount republicans spend on defense while blocking so many opportunities to help the poor, because "lazy people need to learn to help themselves."
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Bingo.
Its interesting that conservatives understand the need/efficiency of bailing out corporations during a time of crisis in order to avoid mass bankruptcies that were not the result of poor decision making and/or governance. But when millions of citizens declare bankruptcy annually due to medical reasons, somehow the idea of fixing that problem is the dreaded socialism.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Guys...at this point, any "conservative" claiming they care about the debt/deficit now but still have full throated support of their GOP leadership is full of ####. Period...full stop. It's not "different" because it's corporations. Those individuals still buy into the notion that the large companies of this country are the driving force of the economy. They aren't. Small businesses are and that evidence is all around us, at this very minute, right now? Are there any huge corporations "shut down" right now? Not one that I know of, so why the "panic" of getting things "running again"? Because small businesses are the ones that run this country and drive the economy. It's been garbage for a long time and now there is irrefutable "proof" starring us right in the face that it's garbage.tommyGunZ said:
I mean, this very thread has individuals who have made claims in the past that they are fiscally conservative and have no problem with what is going on today and no problem with the tax cuts. Can't make this #### up. It's weird and disturbing all at the same time.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
You keep doing this! Earlier in the week you asked me to generalize about all GOP'ers being bad. Now you want, on a day that Joe asked us to be cool to each other to bring out the "I told you so!"
Hope you have a blessed holiday weekend! Stay safe!
The Commish
Footballguy
It's not a generalization to say "at this point, any "conservative" claiming they care about the debt/deficit now but still have full throated support of their GOP leadership"...that's very specific. Whether it's actual support of the action or the attempted "I like him because of this one thing so I have to take this other thing I don't like" shtick...they're all full of it...it's just a matter of which shovel they're using to fill it up.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
well, I was harsh on the Obama administration and the 9 trillion added in 8 years
I'm disgusted that trillions has now been added - again - under Trump
its clear our Govt has no fiscal responsibility at all - GOP and DNC alike. They have all failed us and more importantly failed our future generations. A country cannot recover a 25 trillion debt IMO, its impossible. Eventually the USA will default on that debt. Welcome to a world collapse like we've never seen when it happens and now? Nobody can blame Democrats or Republicans -they did it together
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Except for this not being true at all! Democrats add to the debt to address crisis (WWII, Great Depression, Great Recession, now). Republicans add to the debt by cutting taxes. And we absorbed higher debt as a percentage of GDP from the end of WWII through 1980 but then we adopted "Voodoo Economics". But keep saying "both sides" to help you sleep at night!
Seems unlikely.
I am not suggesting the US should continue to pile on debt, but as one of the few nations that can print it way out of debt, its unlikely the US would actually default.
The resulting inflation my be worse, but the US will pay its debts, imo.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
no no no
its not the deficit - its the NATIONAL DEBT - different critters
blame the people responsible - our elected officials. it really is simple - do not spend more than you bring in - and our Govt has been irresponsible for decades and this last 12 years historically so
Stealthycat
Footballguy
so you're ok with adding 4 trillion more ? 14 trillion ? 40 trillion ?
nothing is free - there is always a day of reckoning - ask Greece, Turkey etc ... remember those meltdowns ?
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
The graph provided is the national debt relative to GDP. Sorry! Deficits contribute to the slope of the graph to the degree that they outgrow the growth of the economy. The way we absorb the debt is to grow the economy faster than we pile on to it. Every president from WWII through 1981 accomplished that. Since 1981 and the tax cuts and the economic recessions they have created by pretending that taking money from the bond market isn't a tax on the economy outgrowing the debt has been rarer. This during an era where non military discretionary spending has shrunk to trivial percentage of spending. An era where for most years (until relatively recently) those horrible democratic entitlements with regressive taxation on working people were running surpluses masking the full impact of reckless giveaways via tax cuts and tax expenditures to the rich and the rural and suburban reliable GOP voters while slashing programs that mostly benefit urban democratic voters.
But "both sides"!
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