2 gamblers take NJ casino for more than $11 million. (1 Viewer)

[eoMMan]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_casino_high_roller

2 gamblers take NJ casino for more than $11M

EmailPrint..By WAYNE PARRY, Associated Press Wayne Parry, Associated Press – Tue Jun 7, 1:20 pm ET

ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. – Lightning has struck twice at the Tropicana Casino and Resort, which has lost more than $11 million to just two high-stakes gamblers since April.

Just weeks after a blackjack player beat the casino for $5.8 million, a different gambler won $5.3 million last week.

Yet despite the huge losses, the Tropicana is sticking with its new emphasis on high-stakes table games play, confident that things will eventually run it its favor.

"That's just how it goes sometimes; if you bet more, you can win more," said Tony Rodio, the Tropicana's president and CEO. "We have a strategy of offering the most aggressive and highest table games limits in the Atlantic City market and we're not going to change that. If someone wants to take the shot, we'll take the action."

Lately it's the Tropicana that's been getting taken.

In April, Bensalem, Pa., gambler Don Johnson beat the casino for $5.8 million at blackjack, part of a spectacular roll that also saw him beat Caesars Atlantic City for more than $4.2 million and the Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa for $5 million. His winning story was first reported by The Press of Atlantic City.

Rodio would not identify last week's winner, citing the casino's policy to keep the identities of its players confidential. But he did say it was not Johnson.

Last Wednesday's winner hit big at the craps table, where he was betting $100,000 at a time. He also did well at blackjack and mini-baccarat, Rodio said.

The man left a $150,000 tip for dealers when he was done raking the casino; it was divided up among table games dealers on duty that night.

Billionaire investor Carl Icahn bought the Tropicana out of bankruptcy last year, and has set about trying to regain business it lost under its previous owners, an affiliate of Kentucky-based Columbia Sussex Corp. A centerpiece of that strategy is trying to make up lost ground in a hurry by allowing high-stakes bettors to take their best shot against the casino at table games.

That approach had been serving the Trop well, until Johnson and last week's gambler came into town.

Rodio said the casino has the wherewithal to withstand even multimillion-dollar setbacks like those it recently experienced, adding no layoffs or cutbacks are expected as a result.

"There have been some players that we were big winners with," he said.

Rodio said Icahn planned to call Johnson and personally invite him back to the Tropicana to play again soon.

"Mr. Icahn is personally very supportive of this strategy, and he understands that there are fluctuations with it," he said.

___

Wayne Parry can be reached at http://twitter.com/WayneParryAC

I blame Kevin Spacey.

 

[Smack Tripper]

The first guy was vague with his strategy but repeatedly alluded to a big bankroll being key. I guess he's running some form of martingale which is obviously easier with high stakes

 

[Abraham]

I am guessing that the second "winner" doesn't exist and this is a well planted story to entice more people through the doors..

 

[eoMMan]

Anyone know what the max bet would be at one of these blackjack tables?

 

[Doug B]

Casino guys: would these guys be automatically barred from the casino in question? And probably many other casinos nationwide? My understanding is that even legitimate, non-cheating, high-stakes card-game winners are summarily barred, unless they are very wealthy and have a history of dropping huge amounts.

EDIT: I saw that Carl Icahn called one of the winners to invite him back ... hmmm. Must have been a regular high-stakes guy.

 

[culdeus]

Anyone know what the max bet would be at one of these blackjack tables?

it varies, and depends on whether you can play multi-handed. Some vegas places will let you play 3 handed at 50k a hand. Sometimes you just have to work out in advance your stakes. Blackjack is a bit different than the other games and AC and Vegas and other places treat it differently as you can get a house edge counting.

 

[culdeus]

Casino guys: would these guys be automatically barred from the casino in question? And probably many other casinos nationwide? My understanding is that even legitimate, non-cheating, high-stakes card-game winners are summarily barred, unless they are very wealthy and have a history of dropping huge amounts. EDIT: I saw that Carl Icahn called one of the winners to invite him back ... hmmm. Must have been a regular high-stakes guy.

They nearly certainly were watching the count and betting pattern plus the shuffle thrus.

 

[Tom Servo]

Casino guys: would these guys be automatically barred from the casino in question? And probably many other casinos nationwide? My understanding is that even legitimate, non-cheating, high-stakes card-game winners are summarily barred, unless they are very wealthy and have a history of dropping huge amounts. EDIT: I saw that Carl Icahn called one of the winners to invite him back ... hmmm. Must have been a regular high-stakes guy.

If they're not cheating, why should they be barred? It makes no sense. The casino would crave the chance to get its back.

 

[jon_mx]

They will get tens of millions of dollars of business from others hoping to repeat this. A smart PR ploy to get these stories out whether true or not.

 

[hooter311]

Casino guys: would these guys be automatically barred from the casino in question? And probably many other casinos nationwide? My understanding is that even legitimate, non-cheating, high-stakes card-game winners are summarily barred, unless they are very wealthy and have a history of dropping huge amounts. EDIT: I saw that Carl Icahn called one of the winners to invite him back ... hmmm. Must have been a regular high-stakes guy.

Unless they are cheating the casino does everything they can to keep them at the table.

 

[Doug B]

They nearly certainly were watching the count and betting pattern plus the shuffle thrus.

"They" meaning "the pit bosses and casino security", or meaning the "winning gamblers"?Is simple aces-&-faces counting considered cheating? EDIT: riffing on what culdeus wrote -- my understanding about casino blackjack is that the combination of (a) employing odd betting patterns, and (b) winning big are sufficient to earn a back-room visit and a perma-ban.

 

[[icon]]

I am guessing that the second "winner" doesn't exist and this is a well planted story to entice more people through the doors..

This was my first thought as well.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

How do they stay in business losing like this? Maybe we should all send them a check to help the casino through this tough time.

 

[Raider Nation]

The first guy was vague with his strategy but repeatedly alluded to a big bankroll being key. I guess he's running some form of martingale which is obviously easier with high stakes

I'm a MG fan myself. Just for hit-and-run purposes. Make $500 or a grand and hit the road before the inevitable run of seven or eight losses in a row happens. Anyway, though the spread at this high stakes table would make it almost impossible for a MG bettor to not win money in the short term, I seriously doubt that was this guy's strategy. It would take forever to pull $5.8M that way.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

Casino guys: would these guys be automatically barred from the casino in question? And probably many other casinos nationwide? My understanding is that even legitimate, non-cheating, high-stakes card-game winners are summarily barred, unless they are very wealthy and have a history of dropping huge amounts. EDIT: I saw that Carl Icahn called one of the winners to invite him back ... hmmm. Must have been a regular high-stakes guy.

If they're not cheating, why should they be barred? It makes no sense. The casino would crave the chance to get its back.

Card counting isn't cheating but if a player keeps taking a casino for money they'll bar a guy.

 

[Raider Nation]

Card counting isn't cheating but if a player keeps taking a casino for money they'll bar a guy.

Back home, years ago... they would "crowbar" a guy.

 

[saintfool]

this kind of stuff happens in places outside of Vegas. i remember reading something about operators who pull off this kind of stuff in smaller, less sophisticated venues. stuff that would get them run out of the vegas casinos, or worse.

 

[FavreCo]

Casino guys: would these guys be automatically barred from the casino in question? And probably many other casinos nationwide? My understanding is that even legitimate, non-cheating, high-stakes card-game winners are summarily barred, unless they are very wealthy and have a history of dropping huge amounts. EDIT: I saw that Carl Icahn called one of the winners to invite him back ... hmmm. Must have been a regular high-stakes guy.

If they're not cheating, why should they be barred? It makes no sense. The casino would crave the chance to get its back.

Card counting isn't cheating but if a player keeps taking a casino for money they'll bar a guy.

El Cortez, downtown LV. You win anything at blackjack and look like a human and you won't last 1 hour before being told to leave. Happened to my dad, brother and a friend when 2 of the 3 were winning $. Why were they at the El Cortez, you ask? Have you ever gawked at a car wreck? That's the clientele inside the El Cortez. It's a must visit when downtown.I think they won less that $100.

 

[culdeus]

They nearly certainly were watching the count and betting pattern plus the shuffle thrus.

"They" meaning "the pit bosses and casino security", or meaning the "winning gamblers"?Is simple aces-&-faces counting considered cheating? EDIT: riffing on what culdeus wrote -- my understanding about casino blackjack is that the combination of (a) employing odd betting patterns, and (b) winning big are sufficient to earn a back-room visit and a perma-ban.

I was talking about the camera crew. They won't ban you for straight up counting, but you might get your limits cut or shuffle-matic only. Team counting MIT style will get you in some deep ####.

 

[Thorn]

Casino guys: would these guys be automatically barred from the casino in question? And probably many other casinos nationwide? My understanding is that even legitimate, non-cheating, high-stakes card-game winners are summarily barred, unless they are very wealthy and have a history of dropping huge amounts. EDIT: I saw that Carl Icahn called one of the winners to invite him back ... hmmm. Must have been a regular high-stakes guy.

Unless they are cheating the casino does everything they can to keep them at the table.

I'm not sure that's true. Blackjack it theoretically "beatable," especially if there are few decks and they don't deal that far into the shoe. If someone is a good counter and can consistently win, the casinos will tell them they're not welcome. It doesn't have to be a cheater.

 

[CBusAlex]

Unless they are cheating the casino does everything they can to keep them at the table.

The problem is that "not cheating" and "exceptionally good cheating" are functionally indistinguishable, from the casino's point of view.

 

[The Draft Robot]

i.rivered.some.donks.with.the.sixteen.of.octogons.playing.cali.holdem.

 

[hooter311]

Unless they are cheating the casino does everything they can to keep them at the table.

The problem is that "not cheating" and "exceptionally good cheating" are functionally indistinguishable, from the casino's point of view.

Not really. Over an extended session is pretty easy to tell how much your bets are correlated to the count.

 

[hooter311]

Casino guys: would these guys be automatically barred from the casino in question? And probably many other casinos nationwide? My understanding is that even legitimate, non-cheating, high-stakes card-game winners are summarily barred, unless they are very wealthy and have a history of dropping huge amounts. EDIT: I saw that Carl Icahn called one of the winners to invite him back ... hmmm. Must have been a regular high-stakes guy.

Unless they are cheating the casino does everything they can to keep them at the table.

I'm not sure that's true. Blackjack it theoretically "beatable," especially if there are few decks and they don't deal that far into the shoe. If someone is a good counter and can consistently win, the casinos will tell them they're not welcome. It doesn't have to be a cheater.

Obviously they don't want card counters, but they do want whales.

 

[hooter311]

Casino guys: would these guys be automatically barred from the casino in question? And probably many other casinos nationwide? My understanding is that even legitimate, non-cheating, high-stakes card-game winners are summarily barred, unless they are very wealthy and have a history of dropping huge amounts. EDIT: I saw that Carl Icahn called one of the winners to invite him back ... hmmm. Must have been a regular high-stakes guy.

If they're not cheating, why should they be barred? It makes no sense. The casino would crave the chance to get its back.

Card counting isn't cheating but if a player keeps taking a casino for money they'll bar a guy.

El Cortez, downtown LV. You win anything at blackjack and look like a human and you won't last 1 hour before being told to leave. Happened to my dad, brother and a friend when 2 of the 3 were winning $. Why were they at the El Cortez, you ask? Have you ever gawked at a car wreck? That's the clientele inside the El Cortez. It's a must visit when downtown.I think they won less that $100.

That you actually believe this.

 

[yellowdog]

i.rivered.some.donks.with.the.sixteen.of.octogons.playing.cali.holdem.

 

[Lehigh98]

Card counting isn't cheating but if a player keeps taking a casino for money they'll bar a guy.

As I understand it, they can't in AC. That's why you see 6 and 8 deck shoes there.

From Wiki...

In 1978, the year gambling began in Atlantic City, New Jersey, Uston moved to the area and formed a profitable blackjack team of his own (discussed at length in a 2005 Blackjack Forum interview with team member Darryl Purpose). As with most other casinos around the globe, Uston was soon barred from playing at those locations within Atlantic City as well. After he was barred in January 1979 by Resorts International, he filed a lawsuit, claiming that casinos did not have the right to bar skilled players. In Uston v. Resorts International Hotel Inc., 445 A.2d 370 (N.J. 1982), the New Jersey State Supreme Court ruled that Atlantic City casinos did not have the authority to decide whether skilled players could be barred. To date, Atlantic City casinos -- by statute -- are not allowed to bar card counters. In response to Uston's legal victory, Atlantic City casinos began adding decks, moving up shuffle points, and taking other measures to decrease the skilled player's potential advantage.

Uston v. Resorts International Hotel, Inc.

 

[Arizona Ron]

The guy was betting $100,000 a hand. The casino will happily welcome him back (to lose it).

 

[Zigg]

Unless they are cheating the casino does everything they can to keep them at the table.

The problem is that "not cheating" and "exceptionally good cheating" are functionally indistinguishable, from the casino's point of view.

There is a very large difference, consistent success. Casinos are very aware of people who are winning, and if you are a consistent winner of any significant value, you will be watched. If you have a player card, 100% chance the casino is on to you. If you don't then it depends on the stakes and the size of the casino. Once you are a suspicious player, counting isn't hard to detect.

 

[johnnycakes]

The guy was betting $100,000 a hand. The casino will happily welcome him back (to lose it).

Do it like Binion used to do it. Your limit is your first bet. .

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

i.rivered.some.donks.with.the.sixteen.of.octogons.playing.cali.holdem.

 

[Tiger Fan]

The first guy was vague with his strategy but repeatedly alluded to a big bankroll being key. I guess he's running some form of martingale which is obviously easier with high stakes

I'm a MG fan myself. Just for hit-and-run purposes. Make $500 or a grand and hit the road before the inevitable run of seven or eight losses in a row happens. Anyway, though the spread at this high stakes table would make it almost impossible for a MG bettor to not win money in the short term, I seriously doubt that was this guy's strategy. It would take forever to pull $5.8M that way.

To make $1000 in a quick hit, you'd need to bring $25k in cash every time to withstand 8 bad rolls. You saying that you do this often?

 

[Tiger Fan]

i.rivered.some.donks.with.the.sixteen.of.octogons.playing.cali.holdem.

ror

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The first guy was vague with his strategy but repeatedly alluded to a big bankroll being key. I guess he's running some form of martingale which is obviously easier with high stakes

I'm a MG fan myself. Just for hit-and-run purposes. Make $500 or a grand and hit the road before the inevitable run of seven or eight losses in a row happens.

 

[Raider Nation]

The first guy was vague with his strategy but repeatedly alluded to a big bankroll being key. I guess he's running some form of martingale which is obviously easier with high stakes

I'm a MG fan myself. Just for hit-and-run purposes. Make $500 or a grand and hit the road before the inevitable run of seven or eight losses in a row happens. Anyway, though the spread at this high stakes table would make it almost impossible for a MG bettor to not win money in the short term, I seriously doubt that was this guy's strategy. It would take forever to pull $5.8M that way.

To make $1000 in a quick hit, you'd need to bring $25k in cash every time to withstand 8 bad rolls. You saying that you do this often?

"Hit and run" was probably a poor choice of words. I don't walk in and put $500 or $1000 on the first hand, then leave if I win. It's a grind. It can take a few hours. But my point was I won't stay long enough to give it back. Also, don't use the $1,000 as the measuring stick. $500 is normally my goal. If it happens quickly, I might go double-or-nothing on one hand if the mood strikes me. Win, go home. Lose, start all over again.I normally start with a $25 wager. If you don't have the stomach for big swings, you can employ a stop-loss strategy, where you go back to square one after four losses in a row. You will be out $375 and will need to play catch-up, but if you have a deep enough bankroll this prevents crushing losses.

People laugh at progression systems. I get it.

But I have fun with it and I'm not bringing the mortgage money with me, so who is it hurting?

 

[Sarnoff]

You often see articles about a gambler hitting a 1, 2, or $3 million-dollar payday or greater... you never see an article that says "casino rakes in $25 million this weekend from the suckers". But that's what usually happens.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

You often see articles about a gambler hitting a 1, 2, or $3 million-dollar payday or greater... you never see an article that says "casino rakes in $25 million this weekend from the suckers". But that's what usually happens.

casinos love to tell everbody about the few times they lose.

 

[Instinctive]

Haven't been to Vegas, but counting cards at the Oklahoma casinos (of which there are many) isn't exactly difficult...

 

[Raider Nation]

counting cards at the Oklahoma casinos isn't exactly difficult...

Why?

 

[Instinctive]

counting cards at the Oklahoma casinos isn't exactly difficult...

Why?

I don't really know why...I'm not all that practiced at it, never read a book or anything, but the few times I've stopped by and done so it's always worked quite well. They've got a shuffling machine, looks like they only use 4 or so decks, but they don't put the used cards back into the machine for a while after they've been used.Isn't it as simple as +1 for anything 6 and under, -1 for anything 10 and up?And the grammar Nazi in me wants to let you know the appropriate question is "Why not?"

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I normally start with a $25 wager. If you don't have the stomach for big swings, you can employ a stop-loss strategy, where you go back to square one after four losses in a row. You will be out $375 and will need to play catch-up, but if you have a deep enough bankroll this prevents crushing losses.

The only thing that can prevent huge losses is not having a deep bankroll, since you can lose only what you have.

 

[Raider Nation]

counting cards at the Oklahoma casinos isn't exactly difficult...

Why?

I don't really know why...I'm not all that practiced at it, never read a book or anything, but the few times I've stopped by and done so it's always worked quite well. They've got a shuffling machine, looks like they only use 4 or so decks, but they don't put the used cards back into the machine for a while after they've been used.Isn't it as simple as +1 for anything 6 and under, -1 for anything 10 and up?

Are you sure you aren't just on a lucky streak? The entire purpose of auto-shuffle machines is to defeat CC.

 

[Raider Nation]

I normally start with a $25 wager. If you don't have the stomach for big swings, you can employ a stop-loss strategy, where you go back to square one after four losses in a row. You will be out $375 and will need to play catch-up, but if you have a deep enough bankroll this prevents crushing losses.

The only thing that can prevent huge losses is not having a deep bankroll, since you can lose only what you have.

You just blew my mind!

 

[hooter311]

counting cards at the Oklahoma casinos isn't exactly difficult...

Why?

I don't really know why...I'm not all that practiced at it, never read a book or anything, but the few times I've stopped by and done so it's always worked quite well. They've got a shuffling machine, looks like they only use 4 or so decks, but they don't put the used cards back into the machine for a while after they've been used.Isn't it as simple as +1 for anything 6 and under, -1 for anything 10 and up?And the grammar Nazi in me wants to let you know the appropriate question is "Why not?"

Lots of ways to count, but I don't think this is a very good example of one of them. The purpose of the "count" is to get more money on the table when the deck is to your advantage (More 10 cards).Personally I use a my own version of the KISS count. I count 10s, Jacks, Queens, and Kings as -1 and 4s,5s,6s, and black 2s as -1. This unbalances the count slightly so the deck will be in your favor less often than with some of the other methods.Beginners should read up on the Ace/10 front count and practice how fast you can go through a deck at home. If you think you are going to crush the casino you're first time out, it's very likely that you are going to be overwhelmed and do something stupd.

 

[[icon]]

counting cards at the Oklahoma casinos isn't exactly difficult...

Why?

I don't really know why...I'm not all that practiced at it, never read a book or anything, but the few times I've stopped by and done so it's always worked quite well. They've got a shuffling machine, looks like they only use 4 or so decks, but they don't put the used cards back into the machine for a while after they've been used.Isn't it as simple as +1 for anything 6 and under, -1 for anything 10 and up?

Are you sure you aren't just on a lucky streak? The entire purpose of auto-shuffle machines is to defeat CC.

I don't think he's referring to a continuos shuffler... just a shufflemaster that shuffles a shoe once you hit the cut card.

 

[Instinctive]

counting cards at the Oklahoma casinos isn't exactly difficult...

Why?

I don't really know why...I'm not all that practiced at it, never read a book or anything, but the few times I've stopped by and done so it's always worked quite well. They've got a shuffling machine, looks like they only use 4 or so decks, but they don't put the used cards back into the machine for a while after they've been used.Isn't it as simple as +1 for anything 6 and under, -1 for anything 10 and up?

Are you sure you aren't just on a lucky streak? The entire purpose of auto-shuffle machines is to defeat CC.

I don't think he's referring to a continuos shuffler... just a shufflemaster that shuffles a shoe once you hit the cut card.

Correct.

 

[Raider Nation]

counting cards at the Oklahoma casinos isn't exactly difficult...

Why?

I don't really know why...I'm not all that practiced at it, never read a book or anything, but the few times I've stopped by and done so it's always worked quite well. They've got a shuffling machine, looks like they only use 4 or so decks, but they don't put the used cards back into the machine for a while after they've been used.Isn't it as simple as +1 for anything 6 and under, -1 for anything 10 and up?

Are you sure you aren't just on a lucky streak? The entire purpose of auto-shuffle machines is to defeat CC.

I don't think he's referring to a continuos shuffler... just a shufflemaster that shuffles a shoe once you hit the cut card.

Ahhh, my bad.

 

[Sinn Fein]

The first guy was vague with his strategy but repeatedly alluded to a big bankroll being key. I guess he's running some form of martingale which is obviously easier with high stakes

I am going to guess that he negotiated with the Casinos in advance to cut the house advantage drastically. With a big enough bank roll, you can get the properties to alter the odds a bit in the high roller room.

 

[Da Guru]

hy does the title say "take"? It should read.. "Two gamblers win more than 11 million at NJ Casino"

 

[Furious Styles]

The first guy was vague with his strategy but repeatedly alluded to a big bankroll being key. I guess he's running some form of martingale which is obviously easier with high stakes

I'm a MG fan myself. Just for hit-and-run purposes. Make $500 or a grand and hit the road before the inevitable run of seven or eight losses in a row

happens. Anyway, though the spread at this high stakes table would make it almost impossible for a MG bettor to not win money in the short term, I seriously doubt that was this guy's strategy. It would take forever to pull $5.8M that way.

To make $1000 in a quick hit, you'd need to bring $25k in cash every time to withstand 8 bad rolls. You saying that you do this often?

"Hit and run" was probably a poor choice of words. I don't walk in and put $500 or $1000 on the first hand, then leave if I win. It's a grind. It can take a few hours. But my point was I won't stay long enough to give it back. Also, don't use the $1,000 as the measuring stick. $500 is normally my goal. If it happens quickly, I might go double-or-nothing on one hand if the mood strikes me. Win, go home. Lose, start all over again.

I normally start with a $25 wager. If you don't have the stomach for big swings, you can employ a stop-loss

strategy, where you go back to square one after four losses in a row. You will be out $375 and will need to play catch-up, but if you have a deep enough bankroll this prevents crushing losses.

People laugh at progression systems. I get it.

But I have fun with it and I'm not bringing the mortgage money with me, so who is it hurting?

My understanding of the system is that it is the opposite of grinding, it is designed to work in the short term which is typically an hour or less.