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Should You Be Socially Shamed & Obligated To "Save Women & Children First" In Current Society ? (9/30) (1 Viewer)

GordonGekko

Footballguy
FACT CHECK: Did a Male Titanic Passenger Pose as a Woman to Get on a Lifeboat?

David Mikkelson Jul 19, 2000

Claim: A man sneaked his way onto one of the Titanic's lifeboats by donning women's dress.
Rating: False

...If we imagined a disaster similar to the Titanic occurring today, we would likely picture it as an "every man for himself" free-for-all in which faster and stronger passengers shouldered aside the slow, weak, and elderly to secure places for themselves in the available lifeboats. No such melee took place on the decks of the Titanic, however, even though "women and children first" was not a regulation specified by maritime law....Back in 1912, "women and children first" was a rule men followed primarily because doing so was a social imperative;...."a law of human nature." I.... violating this social rule was worse than breaking the law:.... the man who pushed his way into a lifeboat while women remained on board was an irredeemable coward...

....William T. Sloper ...was publicly identified ...as "the man who got off in woman's clothing." ...left the Titanic in ...the first boat launched, after he was invited to take a seat with motion picture actress Dorothy Gibson...many passengers ....were unwilling to trade the warmth and apparent safety of their berths for a seat in an open boat on the freezing Atlantic in the middle of the night, lifeboat No. 7 was filled to only about a third of its 65-passenger capacity....freely allowed Sloper aboard..... eventually launched with only 28 occupants, so neither Sloper ... would have had to disguise himself as a woman to sneak aboard.......Reporters soon gathered outside his room to press him for a story, but Sloper had already promised an exclusive to the editor of his hometown newspaper. According to legend, a reporter for a New York newspaper felt Sloper was acting a bit too disrespectful towards members of the fourth estate by declining to talk and exacted revenge by writing a story that named Sloper as "the man who got off in woman's clothing." .... he subsequently spent many years living down the reputation he had unfairly gained....

...William Carter and Dickinson Bishop, were also spitefully tagged as having disguised themselves as women to escape...and in both cases the rumors were lent additional credence when the men's wives divorced them and cited their alleged less-than-honorable behavior the night the Titanic went down as one of the reasons... Bishop reportedly "fell into the boat" his wife had entered ("accidentally" falling into lifeboats being a scheme more than few men employed in desperate attempts to secure seats), but Bishop and his wife left the Titanic in lifeboat No. 7, a boat that was launched early and underfilled..In 1915, Mrs. Carter's testimony from her divorce case (based on grounds of "cruel and barbarous treatment and indignities to the person") was leaked to the press....When the Titanic struck, my husband came to our stateroom and said, "Get up and dress yourself and the children." I never saw him again until I arrived at the Carpathia at 8 o'clock the next morning.... All he said was that he had had a jolly good breakfast, and that he never thought I would make it....

"No, sir," [Second Officer] Lightoller replied. "No men are allowed in these boats until the women are loaded first." When Mrs. Ryerson led her son Jack to the window, Lightoller called out, "That boy can't go!" Mr. Ryerson indignantly stepped forward: "Of course that boy goes with his mother — he is only thirteen." So they let him pass, Lightoller grumbling, "No more boys."...According to legend, Astor then placed a woman's hat on little Billy's head, claiming over objections, "Now he's a girl and he can go," an act that (real or not) might later have become associated with Billy's father instead. (Other sources maintain that it was Billy Carter's mother who placed a woman's hat atop his head, after an order had been issued that no more boys were to be allowed aboard boat No. 4.)

Only one verified case of an adult male passenger's using an article of women's clothing to secure a place on a lifeboat....Fifth Officer Lowe testified ....when he attempted to transfer passengers from his lifeboat ...Then I asked for volunteers to go with me to the wreck, and it was at this time that I found the Italian. He came aft and had a shawl over his head, and I suppose he had skirts. Anyhow, I pulled the shawl off his face and saw he was a man....The "Italian" ....was actually an Irishman, a 21-year-old Third Class passenger named Daniel Buckley....By some accounts, Buckley sneaked onto a lifeboat by tossing a shawl over his head after an officer brandished his revolver and threatened other men who had clambered aboard the boat and refused to make way for female passengers, but according to Buckley's testimony in the American inquiry, he was already on board the lifeboat when a woman took it upon herself to throw her shawl over his head and camouflage him while other men were being dragged out of the boat....

When the sixth lifeboat was prepared, there was a big crowd of men standing on the deck. And they all jumped in. So I said I would take my chance with them... Then two officers came along and said all of the men could come out. ....they said all the men could get out and let the ladies in. But six men were left in the boat......I was crying. There was a woman in the boat, and she had thrown her shawl over me, and she told me to stay in there. Then they did not see me, and the boat was lowered down into the water, and we rowed away ....The men that were in the boat at first fought, and would not get out, but the officers drew their revolvers, and fired shots over our heads, and then the men got out. When the boat was ready, we were lowered down into the water and rowed away out from the steamer. We were only about 15 minutes out when she sank....


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/titanic-survivors-dress-like-women/
 
Direct Headline: Masabumi Hosono: The Man Condemned for Surviving The Titanic

Neatorama June 16, 2009

... first he learned of it was shortly after midnight, 25 or 30 minutes after the collision, when he was awakened by a knock at the door of his second-class cabin and told to put on his life vest. Three times when he tried to make his way to the lifeboats, he was turned away by the ship's officers, who ordered him to return to the lower levels of the ship. They likely assumed that, as a Japanese person, he must have been traveling in third class, or "steerage." On his third attempt, Hosono managed to slip past a guard and make his way to the lifeboats....

.... Hosono must have sensed what was happening earlier than many of the passengers did, because as he stood next to Lifeboat No. 10 as it was being loaded, he was already steeling himself for the end. "I tried to prepare myself for the last moment with no agitation, making up my mind not to leave anything disgraceful as a Japanese," he explained in a letter to his wife. "But still I found myself looking for and waiting for any possible chance to survive." That chance came moments later, when the officer loading No. 10 could not coax any more women or children into the boat. "Room for two more!" the officer called out. Hosono watched as another man jumped into the boat. "I myself was deep in desolate thought that I would no more be able to see my beloved wife and children, since there was no alternative for me than to share the same destiny as the Titanic," he wrote. "But the example of the first man making a jump led me to take this last chance." Hosono hopped in, and at 1:20 a.m. he and 34 other people were lowered to safety in a boat built to hold 65....

....Of the more than 2,200 passengers and crew aboard the Titanic, just over 700 survived, including 316 of the 425 women and 56 of 109 children. Even if every woman and child had been accommodated in the lifeboats, there still would have been enough room for nearly 700 of the 1,690 men, yet only 338 men survived. Not everyone who perished did so because they declined an opportunity to climb into a lifeboat, not by a long shot. But this must surely have been the cause of many deaths....many of these subtle details were lost on newspaper-reading public. As they counted up the 162 dead women and children, many readers wondered how 338 men had managed to find their way into the lifeboats, "displacing" those helpless victims. Hosono received some of the harshest criticism of all.....came from his own countrymen. For in surviving the Titanic disaster, he had broken two cultural taboos. Not only had Hosono chosen ignominious life over an honorable death, he had done so in public - on a European passenger liner with the eyes of the world upon him. Hosono was denounced as a coward by Japanese newspapers and fired from his job with the Transportation Ministry.... College professors denounced him as immoral, and he was written up in Japanese textbooks as a man who had disgraced his country. There were even public calls for him to commit hara-kiri - ritual suicide - as means of saving face....

....Hosono never did kill himself, but there must have been times when he wished he'd died on the Titanic. He never spoke of the experience again, and forbade any mention of it in his home. After he died in 1939, a broken and forgotten man, his letter to his wife, written on what is believed to be the only surviving piece of Titanic stationery, sat in a drawer until 1997, when the blockbuster film Titanic staged its Tokyo premiere. Then the Japanese public's interest in the doomed liner's lone Japanese passenger was renewed again, this time with much more sympathy.....


https://www.neatorama.com/2009/06/16/masabumi-hosono-the-man-condemned-for-surviving-the-titanic/
 
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"Whatever happened to chivalry? Does it only exist in 80's movies? I want John Cusack holding a boombox outside my window. I wanna ride off on a lawnmower with Patrick Dempsey. I want Jake from Sixteen Candles waiting outside the church for me. I want Judd Nelson thrusting his fist into the air because he knows he got me. Just once I want my life to be like an 80's movie, preferably one with a really awesome musical number for no apparent reason. But no, no, John Hughes did not direct my life."

- Emma Stone


"I love having the door opened for me. Isn't that just polite? But the key is, would you then mind if I opened the door for you? The key is, chivalry should be consensual. Both parties should be feeling good about that."

- Emma Watson




Here is another topic that is designed to increase discussion and participation in the FFA. I picked quotes from two famous "Emmas", in part, because one sounds deeply introspective and the other sounds more like, IMHO, an open emotional terrorist.

I'd like to have an open honest discussion here about a clear gradual change in our modern society regarding "chivalry" and the concept of saving women and children above all else. There is an increasing attraction by many, with modern technology to support it such as social media platforms, to enable unchecked narcissism. "What's in it for me? Me first! Me always! Me before anyone even my own family and kids and obligations!" On the other hand, there is widespread high speed information, and more varied viewpoints creates deep lingering questions that emerge regarding older social "value systems" that may or may not still apply nor be relevant today.

Should modern adult men be shamed or feel obligated to "save women and children" (not biologically linked to them) above all else, even to the point of giving up their own lives to do so?

Should modern adult women be shamed or feel obligated to "save other women, in specific circumstances like being currently pregnant, and children" (not biologically linked to them) above all else, even to the point of giving up their own lives to do so?

I'm not looking to lead the discussion into any area of public policy nor law nor issues of "identity" here. But I think this is an interesting social/cultural question worth some introspection.

What makes someone else's life worth more than yours on a sinking ship with only a few seats available on too few lifeboats? Because let's get real here, if any relatively young able bodied adult male here walks off a rescue ship while it's known that women and children drowned otherwise on a sinking vessel, it's pretty clear that person is going to get dragged through the public mud no matter what. Now I'd like to think there is generally a widespread acceptance that infants, very little children and pregnant women will be seen as essential and critical for being put into those lifeboats, but what about everyone else?

I want to be fair about this topic. There's a lot of context here. What I would do in a situation alone would be vastly differently in what I might do if my godson was also there. Or if he was very young compared to being an adult now. Or if I had a goddaughter instead of a godson. I'm at the end of my life. My health is bad. I struggle with some very basic things now. There's no value in my eyes in saving my life against the life of a young person with the full potential of a possible good future ahead of them. But the question does remain, what makes their life worth more than anyone else's life? However would I see that situation the same way if my godson was 8 years old again, and I wanted him a lifeboat no matter what? What would the average parent do to keep their child alive? Would they kick off another person's child to get that seat? Would they kill or use violence to get it?

If the current culture has this non-stop mantra that "You Can Do Everything I Can Do, But Clearly Better", then why exactly shouldn't "you" drown next to me?

We typically carry the value system that we grew up with in life. I raised my godson to open doors for people. To thank them for their time. To give up his coat if someone in his company, particularly a woman, is cold. To give up his seat if an elderly woman needs a seat and no other is available. I also come from the timeline in society where men were expected to pay for a "first date". But is that applicable now for my godson's generation? Or a later generation? Should it be? Would that be potentially more harmful to him to do so ( i.e. look like a "ripe financial target" ) versus not? I have had to come to terms with the "value system" that I've always known and applied most of my life is not the same value system that most young people today will have moving forward.

If you managed to survive a sinking ship, and if all of society and our culture turns on you for it, for not surrendering your life in exchange for others deemed more worthy, should you actually be shamed for it? Would you feel shame for it on your own? Under what context would that dynamic change, if at all? What limits do you have for yourself in this type of scenario? What would you do, or not do, to keep your children safe on a sinking ship above all else?

I consider this an interesting overall moral dilemma. I'll leave this here for others to discuss. (9/30)
 
Children yes. Women meh. They’d get on the boat and make a Tik Tok about what an idiot you are. That said, I‘d give up my seat to someone younger, man or woman.
 
Without any other knowledge about people. Today my logic would be to save those with the most productive years left regardless of gender. So, line em up by age and save the youngest 1st. I'd let a 30 year old man on the life boat before a 60 year old woman.
For me, even though my own logic would put me late in line, I'd do my best to get to safety. People depend on me and I won't abandon them. No shame whatsoever.
 
When I was on the Titanic, I threw a child over board.

The mother jumped in to save em.

I jumped on the mom to get to the lifeboat
 
Children yes. Women meh. They’d get on the boat and make a Tik Tok about what an idiot you are. That said, I‘d give up my seat to someone younger, man or woman.
Or they'll get OFF the boat only to take your spot on the floating door of survival.
 

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