2011 Baseball Hall of Fame Thread (1 Viewer)

[Eephus]

Eight former major league players, three executives and one former manager comprise the 12-name Expansion Era ballot for the Committee to Consider Managers, Umpires, Executives and Long-Retired Players for Hall of Fame election, to be reviewed and voted upon at the 2010 Baseball Winter Meetings by a 16-member electorate. The results of the Expansion Era vote will be announced on December 6 at 10 a.m. ET from the Winter Meetings in Orlando, Fla.Every candidate receiving votes on 75 percent of the 16 ballots cast will earn election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and will be honored during Hall of Fame Weekend 2011, July 22-25 in Cooperstown, New York.The 12 individuals who will be considered by the Expansion Era Committee in December for Hall of Fame Induction in 2011: Former players Vida Blue, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Ron Guidry, Tommy John, Al Oliver, Ted Simmons and Rusty Staub; former manager Billy Martin; and executives Pat Gillick, Marvin Miller and George Steinbrenner. Martin and Steinbrenner are deceased; all other candidates are living.The 16-member electorate charged with the review of the Expansion Era ballot features: Hall of Fame members Johnny Bench, Whitey Herzog, Eddie Murray, Jim Palmer, Tony Perez, Frank Robinson, Ryne Sandberg and Ozzie Smith; major league executives Bill Giles (Phillies), David Glass (Royals), Andy MacPhail (Orioles) and Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox); and veteran media members Bob Elliott (Toronto Sun), Tim Kurkjian (ESPN), Ross Newhan (retired, Los Angeles Times) and Tom Verducci (Sports Illustrated).

Marvin Miller is a no brainer. The Boss will probably be a sentimental pick although he wouldn't get my vote. Gillick was a solid GM for a long time but I don't know where to put the cut line for front office guys.Of the players, Ted Simmons is the one who stands out to me, but I don't think it's an injustice that any of them aren't in the Hall already.

 

[rodg12]

Marvin Miller and Steinbrenner should be locks. Simmons is a maybe...

 

[oso diablo]

what the heck is an "Expansion Era" ballot?

 

[Eephus]

what the heck is an "Expansion Era" ballot?

It's some special committee to give a second chance to players from 1973-1989 who didn't get voted in by the writers. Nobody who played in the 90s is eligible but I don't understand the 1973 cut date on the front side because Santo retired after 1974.

 

[JohnDoe]

Good possibility that Marvin Miller and the Boss get elected off of this list. Tommy John will get some support, as will Concepcion. One can make a good case for Garvey, Guidry, and Simmons, but I think they fall short of the HOF.

 

[JohnDoe]

what the heck is an "Expansion Era" ballot?

It's some special committee to give a second chance to players from 1973-1989 who didn't get voted in by the writers. Nobody who played in the 90s is eligible but I don't understand the 1973 cut date on the front side because Santo retired after 1974.

I think it was made that way to get Steinbrenner and Miller into the HOF this year.

 

[oso diablo]

none of the players on that ballot are HOFers. If i had to vote for someone, i'd pick Tommy John.

 

[boubucarow]

Eight former major league players, three executives and one former manager comprise the 12-name Expansion Era ballot for the Committee to Consider Managers, Umpires, Executives and Long-Retired Players for Hall of Fame election, to be reviewed and voted upon at the 2010 Baseball Winter Meetings by a 16-member electorate. The results of the Expansion Era vote will be announced on December 6 at 10 a.m. ET from the Winter Meetings in Orlando, Fla.

Every candidate receiving votes on 75 percent of the 16 ballots cast will earn election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and will be honored during Hall of Fame Weekend 2011, July 22-25 in Cooperstown, New York.

The 12 individuals who will be considered by the Expansion Era Committee in December for Hall of Fame Induction in 2011: Former players Vida Blue, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Ron Guidry, Tommy John, Al Oliver, Ted Simmons and Rusty Staub; former manager Billy Martin; and executives Pat Gillick, Marvin Miller and George Steinbrenner. Martin and Steinbrenner are deceased; all other candidates are living.

The 16-member electorate charged with the review of the Expansion Era ballot features: Hall of Fame members Johnny Bench, Whitey Herzog, Eddie Murray, Jim Palmer, Tony Perez, Frank Robinson, Ryne Sandberg and Ozzie Smith; major league executives Bill Giles (Phillies), David Glass (Royals), Andy MacPhail (Orioles) and Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox); and veteran media members Bob Elliott (Toronto Sun), Tim Kurkjian (ESPN), Ross Newhan (retired, Los Angeles Times) and Tom Verducci (Sports Illustrated).

Marvin Miller is a no brainer. The Boss will probably be a sentimental pick although he wouldn't get my vote. Gillick was a solid GM for a long time but I don't know where to put the cut line for front office guys.Of the players, Ted Simmons is the one who stands out to me, but I don't think it's an injustice that any of them aren't in the Hall already.

Which should always be the rationale.

 

[Michael Brown]

Steinbrenner is one of my all-time sports idols, but I don't understand the mad push to get him in now that he died. It doesn't benefit him any to put him in NOW, would've been nice if it had been done a year or two ago.

More weird fascination with honoring the dead instead of honoring them while they're still alive.

 

[Tau837]

what the heck is an "Expansion Era" ballot?

It's some special committee to give a second chance to players from 1973-1989 who didn't get voted in by the writers. Nobody who played in the 90s is eligible but I don't understand the 1973 cut date on the front side because Santo retired after 1974.

Do we really need another committee to reconsider people who have already been passed over? I don't think so.

 

[Koya]

As far as the players, I don't see any that shout out to me HOF career. Some good players. I dont see any borderline guys even.

Marvin Miller is one of the most influential men baseball, or US Sports overall, has ever seen. Not many that could be considered on par, not to say ahead of him on an all time influential and meaningful list.

And I must admit, George may fall into that category as well. He had the tremendous asset of the Yanks, NYC's first team. But it was his understanding that in a big market, overspending gives a good ROI - and building cable TV empires a far better ROI that makes overspending very palatable. His use of the media, in terms of persona and later in his career, the business side of the equation, was revolutionary and a model that franchises from markets of all sizes have since emulated.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Billy Martin

Dave Concepcion and Ron Guidry

Garvey, IMHO, is in the Hall of Very Good.

 

[oso diablo]

regular ballot should be out soon. I expect Blyleven and Roberto Alomar to be selected, after both came up just short last year. i also expect Barry Larkin to make a big jump. He's a 50/50 shot to get in this year, and 99% sure he's in eventually.

The newcomers include Jeff Bagwell, Larry Walker, and Rafael Palmeiro. I don't expect anyone to be a first-ballot guy this time around.

 

[Eephus]

Longtime baseball executive Pat Gillick has been elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame, the result of voting by the new Expansion Era Committee.Gillick, now a senior adviser to the Philadelphia Phillies, is the former GM of the Phillies, Seattle Mariners, Baltimore Orioles and Toronto Blue Jays.He was the only candidate to receive the required 12 votes from the 16-man committee that included Hall of Famers, executives and veteran baseball writers. Gillick received 13 votes (13 votes, 81.25%); Marvin Miller (11 votes, 68.75%); Dave Concepcion (8 votes, 50%); Ted Simmons, Vida Blue, Steve Garvey, Ron Guidry, Tommy John, Billy Martin, Al Oliver, Rusty Staub and George Steinbrenner each received less than eight votes.

 

[Koya]

Marvin Miller should (and will eventually) make it. Few individuals have had the impact on baseball that he has had, and he deserves the recognition for that.

 

[Smack Tripper]

They got it half right. Gillick is a no brainer to me, the best exec of his generation IMO. But to not put miller, in his 90s and still with us, is just insanely stupid. With former players and press on the ballot, you're going to make a 93 year old wait 3 years for inclusion. His family should decline the induction if they do so posthumously.

I'm just glad George didn't make it. If he were alive he wouldn't have gotten consideration.

 

[Eephus]

Interesting piece from the blogosphere ranking the top 50 players not in the Hall of Fame. Ballot included people on the banned list but not those who aren't yet eligible under the five year rule.

 

[oso diablo]

Interesting piece from the blogosphere ranking the top 50 players not in the Hall of Fame. Ballot included people on the banned list but not those who aren't yet eligible under the five year rule.

pretty good list, esp considering that the players weren't ranked by the voters (they just picked their top 50 among a list of 300). I'd stop around 12 or 13. But i am, relatively speaking, a Hall of Fame liberal.

 

[Eephus]

I'm not a BBWAA member, a small hall elitist or a steroid moralist. My votes would go to these seven:

Alomar

Blyleven

Larkin

Raines

Bagwell

McGwire

Trammell

Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Kevin Brown and Rafael Palmeiro fall below the cutline for me but there are HoFers with weaker qualifications than them.

 

[dparker713]

Reading through some of the ballots that have been posted online makes me think the HOF should require the voters to pass a basic logic test. There are some awfully dumb sportswriters that have been in the profession an awfully long time.

 

[Eephus]

Reading through some of the ballots that have been posted online makes me think the HOF should require the voters to pass a basic logic test. There are some awfully dumb sportswriters that have been in the profession an awfully long time.

The voting has always been rife with stupidity and pontification but the PED era brings with it new dimensions of speculation and moralizing.It's a good thing the world is ending in 2012 so we don't have to suffer through the 2013 election with Bonds, Clemens and Sosa on the ballot.

 

[oso diablo]

Reading through some of the ballots that have been posted online makes me think the HOF should require the voters to pass a basic logic test. There are some awfully dumb sportswriters that have been in the profession an awfully long time.

i think many voters decide who they want to vote for, and then search for arguments to support their decisions.btw, i generally agree with Eephus's list.p.s. was also thinking that anyone who receives at least one vote in their first year on the ballot should stay for a 2nd year. The current rule requires a 5% threshold to stay on. I think that's fine for subsequent years, but i think that first year should be loosened a bit, to give voters a couple of year to ruminate. Perhaps it wouldn't ever change any ultimate elections, but it's a shame that guys like Will Clark, David Cone, Bobby Grich, Ted Simmons, and Lou Whitaker only appeared on one ballot.For the record, here are some guys that received less than 5% on their first ballot, but were later selected by the Vet Committee: Arky Vaughan, Richie Ashburn, Joe Gordon, Chuck Klein, and 6 others.

 

[Eephus]

Reading through some of the ballots that have been posted online makes me think the HOF should require the voters to pass a basic logic test. There are some awfully dumb sportswriters that have been in the profession an awfully long time.

i think many voters decide who they want to vote for, and then search for arguments to support their decisions.btw, i generally agree with Eephus's list.p.s. was also thinking that anyone who receives at least one vote in their first year on the ballot should stay for a 2nd year. The current rule requires a 5% threshold to stay on. I think that's fine for subsequent years, but i think that first year should be loosened a bit, to give voters a couple of year to ruminate. Perhaps it wouldn't ever change any ultimate elections, but it's a shame that guys like Will Clark, David Cone, Bobby Grich, Ted Simmons, and Lou Whitaker only appeared on one ballot.For the record, here are some guys that received less than 5% on their first ballot, but were later selected by the Vet Committee: Arky Vaughan, Richie Ashburn, Joe Gordon, Chuck Klein, and 6 others.

Joe Posnanski's blog contains a lot of interesting material about this year's ballot. He makes a comparison between Larry Walker's Coors Field output and Klein's performance at the old Baker Bowl.

 

[dparker713]

I'm not a BBWAA member, a small hall elitist or a steroid moralist. My votes would go to these seven:AlomarBlylevenLarkinRainesBagwellMcGwireTrammellEdgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Kevin Brown and Rafael Palmeiro fall below the cutline for me but there are HoFers with weaker qualifications than them.

I think I'd probably vote for all 11 of the players you mentioned, with Palmeiro waiting a year. I've changed my views on this a bunch of times, but currently I think that past elections have established reasonably knowable standards for HOF induction - not including obvious outliers like Jim Rice and Andre Dawson. If it were a new HOF I'd be a small hall voter. As such I'd vote for Bagwell, Raines, McGwire and Trammel - and I'd have to give more consideration to Alomar, Blyleven and Larkin.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

I have no idea how you could have Trammell in but Larkin out

 

[oso diablo]

Joe Posnanski's blog contains a lot of interesting material about this year's ballot. He makes a comparison between Larry Walker's Coors Field output and Klein's performance at the old Baker Bowl.

that was good stuff. thanks for the heads-up. I hate the DH, but Joe makes a great case for Edgar Martinez.

 

[dparker713]

I have no idea how you could have Trammell in but Larkin out

Trammell's raw numbers are hurt by his era. They've got largely similar numbers when adjusted for context, but Trammell has a much deserved World Series MVP so I give him a slight edge especially combined with Larkin's injury issues.

 

[Smack Tripper]

When I watched Trammell, I was certain I was watching a HOFer.

 

[Captain Hook]

I'm not a BBWAA member, a small hall elitist or a steroid moralist. My votes would go to these seven:AlomarBlylevenLarkinRainesBagwellMcGwireTrammellEdgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Kevin Brown and Rafael Palmeiro fall below the cutline for me but there are HoFers with weaker qualifications than them.

question Eephus because you are one of the most knowledgable posters on this or any baseball board, BUT how could you vote for McGwire and not Palmeiro? The moralists vote for neither when BOTH have HOF worthy numbers which is why I don't understand voting for one and not the other.I agree with all of the others you "vote" for - and against

 

[oso diablo]

obviously, i cannot speak for Eephus, but one of those 1B had an OPS+ of 162, while the other had a 132. Another, Jeff Bagwell, had a 149. (Bagwell had the highest WAR of the 3.)

That OPS+ mark for McGwire puts him 12th all-time, ahead of guys like Stan Musial, Willie McCovey, and Hank Greenberg. Palmeiro's 132 ties him for 136th place, behind guys like Will Clark, Jack Clark, and Carlos Delgado.

 

[Captain Hook]

obviously, i cannot speak for Eephus, but one of those 1B had an OPS+ of 162, while the other had a 132. Another, Jeff Bagwell, had a 149. (Bagwell had the highest WAR of the 3.)That OPS+ mark for McGwire puts him 12th all-time, ahead of guys like Stan Musial, Willie McCovey, and Hank Greenberg. Palmeiro's 132 ties him for 136th place, behind guys like Will Clark, Jack Clark, and Carlos Delgado.

so you are basing your vote on ONE stat? Palmeiro had 3000 hits and 500 home runs - the only other three players to do that are already in the HOF

 

[Eephus]

obviously, i cannot speak for Eephus, but one of those 1B had an OPS+ of 162, while the other had a 132. Another, Jeff Bagwell, had a 149. (Bagwell had the highest WAR of the 3.)That OPS+ mark for McGwire puts him 12th all-time, ahead of guys like Stan Musial, Willie McCovey, and Hank Greenberg. Palmeiro's 132 ties him for 136th place, behind guys like Will Clark, Jack Clark, and Carlos Delgado.

so you are basing your vote on ONE stat? Palmeiro had 3000 hits and 500 home runs - the only other three players to do that are already in the HOF

True, but that's just basing a vote on two different but more established stats. I see Palmeiro as an accumulator. He was a consistent producer for a long time. But he never fared well in MVP or All-Star game balloting, which attests to a contemporary view as a guy who was just a tad below greatness. He's very close to the cutline but so are guys like Edgar Martinez and Walker. No matter how quantitative you choose to make it, a Hall of Fame choice ultimately comes down to a guts call. Without bringing things like "most feared hitter" or "winningest pitcher of the 80s" into it, I think Palmeiro falls closer to Martinez and Walker than McGwire and Bagwell.

 

[dennis.moore]

ROBERTO ALOMAR, BERT BLYLEVEN ELECTED

 

[dennis.moore]

2011 Hall of Fame voting

Name Votes Pct.

Roberto Alomar 523 90.0%

Bert Blyleven 463 79.7%

Barry Larkin 361 62.1%

Jack Morris 311 53.5%

Lee Smith 263 45.3%

Jeff Bagwell 242 41.7%

Tim Raines 218 37.5%

Edgar Martinez 191 32.9%

Alan Trammell 141 24.3%

Larry Walker 118 20.3%

Mark McGwire 115 19.8%

Fred McGriff 104 17.9%

Dave Parker 89 15.3%

Don Mattingly 79 13.6%

Dale Murphy 73 12.6%

Rafael Palmeiro 64 11.0%

Juan Gonzalez 30 5.2%

Harold Baines 28 4.8%

John Franco 27 4.6%

Kevin Brown 12 2.1%

Tino Martinez 6 1.0%

Marquis Grissom 4 0.7%

Al Leiter 4 0.7%

John Olerud 4 0.7%

B.J. Surhoff 2 0.3%

Bret Boone 1 0.2%

Benito Santiago 1 0.2%

Carlos Baerga 0 0.0%

Lenny Harris 0 0.0%

Bobby Higginson 0 0.0%

Charles Johnson 0 0.0%

Raul Mondesi 0 0.0%

Kirk Rueter 0 0.0%

 

[DCThunder]

B.J. Surhoff got TWO votes for the HOF? Benito Santiago got 1? WTF is up with that????????????????????

 

[badmojo1006]

Looking at Palmeiro and McGwire's numbers, Barry Bonds is pissing his pants

 

[whoknew]

What did Raines get last year? Is that an increase?

 

[Don Quixote]

Looking at Palmeiro and McGwire's numbers, Barry Bonds is pissing his pants

McGwire went down this year. Thought he'd slowly increase.

 

[Eephus]

One and done for Kevin Brown is kind of surprising

 

[oso diablo]

What did Raines get last year? Is that an increase?

Raines got 30% last year, so this is a nice bump. Larkin up 10 points. He'll get in.

 

[oso diablo]

regular ballot should be out soon. I expect Blyleven and Roberto Alomar to be selected, after both came up just short last year. i also expect Barry Larkin to make a big jump. He's a 50/50 shot to get in this year, and 99% sure he's in eventually.The newcomers include Jeff Bagwell, Larry Walker, and Rafael Palmeiro. I don't expect anyone to be a first-ballot guy this time around.

 

[Eephus]

Looking at Palmeiro and McGwire's numbers, Barry Bonds is pissing his pants

Bonds never has struck me as a guy who lives for HoF recognition. His place in history/infamy is secure.

 

[PIK95]

One and done for Kevin Brown is kind of surprising

I also think Bagwell will get in next time btw.

 

[Statorama]

One and done for Kevin Brown is kind of surprising

Yep, when he wasn't holding his back he was a hell of a dominant pitcher.Glad to see they looked past the whole spitting thing with Alomar. Knew he'd get in, but I thought that incident might have lowered his vote total.I've heard plenty of arguments for/against Blyleven, but if you have Don Sutton in you have to let the Dutchman in.I'll say it. I'm glad they're holding back the steroid boys. Bonds is going to be the big test. He would have been a solid 25HR/30SB guy without the juice, and that's borderline HOF worthy. Pre-juice he was a terrible "big game" player as well, and his foibles in the post season (again pre-juice) are well chronicled. Were his gold gloves reputation or merit based? He had one of the weakest outfield arms in baseball, with even the Sid Breams of the world taking advantage. When he's on the juice? Multiple MVP's including several in a row, HR titles, Walks Galore, 40-40 seasons, etc. He was a very good player without the juice, and an exceptional unparalleled superstar while on it. He and Clemens are the absolute face of the steroid scandal, and if one of them gets in you have to let the rest of them in too. Yeah, that includes Sammy Sosa too.

 

[Eephus]

B.J. Surhoff got TWO votes for the HOF? Benito Santiago got 1? WTF is up with that????????????????????

Barry Stanton formerly of the Westchester Journal News voted for Surhoff, Mattingly, Jack Morris and Tino & Edgar Martinez. That's it.

 

[Eephus]

Congratulations to Blyleven and Alomar. Sometimes in all the arguments about who should, shouldn't and didn't get in, we lose sight of the people who have earned the game's highest honor.

 

[David Yudkin]

I could never understand how some guys had radically different vote totals from one year to the next (or got a lot more votes over time). Either the guy is a HOFer or he's not.

 

[PIK95]

One and done for Kevin Brown is kind of surprising

Yep, when he wasn't holding his back he was a hell of a dominant pitcher.Glad to see they looked past the whole spitting thing with Alomar. Knew he'd get in, but I thought that incident might have lowered his vote total.I've heard plenty of arguments for/against Blyleven, but if you have Don Sutton in you have to let the Dutchman in.I'll say it. I'm glad they're holding back the steroid boys. Bonds is going to be the big test. He would have been a solid 25HR/30SB guy without the juice, and that's borderline HOF worthy. Pre-juice he was a terrible "big game" player as well, and his foibles in the post season (again pre-juice) are well chronicled. Were his gold gloves reputation or merit based? He had one of the weakest outfield arms in baseball, with even the Sid Breams of the world taking advantage. When he's on the juice? Multiple MVP's including several in a row, HR titles, Walks Galore, 40-40 seasons, etc. He was a very good player without the juice, and an exceptional unparalleled superstar while on it. He and Clemens are the absolute face of the steroid scandal, and if one of them gets in you have to let the rest of them in too. Yeah, that includes Sammy Sosa too.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

Maybe I'm underestimating the guy but I'm not on board with Sosa making it.

 

[Tom Servo]

B.J. Surhoff got TWO votes for the HOF? Benito Santiago got 1? WTF is up with that????????????????????

Some of the votes Jack Morris lost this year?