Deamon
Footballguy
Agree to disagree here. He was 23rd in QBR last year (22nd in PFF Qb Rankings) with a top 5 coaching/weapons situation.
So already bottom 10 in a great situation, how he does in a not-as-great situation we will see this year.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
2025 Detroit Lions: 4-1 Lions win battle of the big cats. (24 Viewers)
- Thread starter Da Guru
- Start date
So already bottom 10 in a great situation, how he does in a not-as-great situation we will see this year.
Based on the last 2 years, I'd rather have Fitzmagic than Goff for this year. Better by the eye test, better by PFF, better by QBR. And. he's been one of the most pressured QBs, with receivers who rank poorly in separation. Goff needs perfect laboratory conditions to excel, and Detroit is working on that by drafting Sewell.
formerfourdigit
Footballguy
Goff we know ran an unusual offense that didn't really permit him to make any changes or even reads beyond what McVay put in his ear. We know our receivers are likely going to be bad if not worst in the league but we don't really know what kind of offense we're going to run or the reads/throws they'll be asking him to make. Very likely he's going to struggle but it's also possible he can flourish when given a bit more freedom. We're going to have a top line, RBs that can catch, plus an emerging star TE in Hock.
Also I think calling McVay an offensive genius is maybe a little much; the rest of the NFL seems to be catching on to him. Rams win cause of defense at least that's what I saw last year.
We'll see. At least no one has much in the way of expectations this year other than to bite some Packer kneecaps off.
Also I think calling McVay an offensive genius is maybe a little much; the rest of the NFL seems to be catching on to him. Rams win cause of defense at least that's what I saw last year.
We'll see. At least no one has much in the way of expectations this year other than to bite some Packer kneecaps off.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
At least 16 but this is from memory whilst on my phone & on the train.
You know he’s not the linchpin of the rebuild, right? You understand we have four 1sts the next two years?
Two year stop gap at a relatively cheap price. If he returns to the level he played at in 2017-18, bonus, but if not we’ll move on.
Whatever, man. Silly argument.
Big Ben Pit
David Carr LV
Jordan Love GB
Ryan Findlay/Tyrod Taylor/the other guy HOU
Cam Newton / Mac Jones NE
Teddy Bridgewater/Sam Darnold CAR
Carson Wentz IND
Drew Lock DEN
Daniel Jones NYG
Stafford LAR
Tua Tagovailoa MIA
Winston/ Hill NO
Fields/Dalton CHI
Jalen Hurts PHI
Fitzmagic WAS
Jimmy Garoppolo / Trey Lance SF
Deamon
Footballguy
Yes I fully understand he's a stop gap. This is not a knock on the Lions at all... Per my previous posts, I think they're in great position to rebuild. I think Goff is going to be bad this year and they're going to get an awesome franchise QB in the draft next year and be in good shape. I know he's not your future at all. This was purely from a Goff talent standpoint.
Was the Stafford thing a joke? lol. Are you saying Goff is better than Stafford and in the trade, you got the better QB PLUS all those picks????
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Stafford has taken a lot of hits. I’ve always been appreciative of his toughness and ability. That said, it wouldn’t be a stretch to think he breaks down or succumbs to injury in the next year or two, while Goff could be a reasonable starter, either earning the long term job or rehabbing his value. I know the coaching staff grew frustrated with him, but he’s been a competent qb every year he’s started. And let’s not give the rams coaching staff all the credit here, I think it’s pretty overrated (although it’s good, it’s getting a bit overrated imo; will be an interesting story to watch unfold).
Deamon
Footballguy
I think McVay is one of the top offensive minds in the game imo.
I just find it shocking to think that Goff is better than Stafford in any way. You don't give up the better QB AND multiple 1st round picks. I appreciate the homerism here, but there's no way a single person within the nfl thinks Goff is better than Stafford.
But like Bobby said, Goff is just a placeholder. Him being bad isn't a slight on the Lions at all... in fact I think it helps their rebuild faster. I fully expect them to draft a QB in the top 10 next year.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Ifeatu Melifonwu as the late 3rd rounder became the first return in the trade after Goff. 2 first rounders to go.
Foosball God
Foos
Agree, Goff is not as good as Stafford, but Stafford is in the top 1/3 of QBs, maybe even top 10. But being a Detroit fan I've seen my share of bad QBs, Goff isn't bad, he's average.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Love Matthew. Great guy. But he's never won a playoff game. Wanna know who has won multiple playoff games? He's been to one pro bowl. Wanna know who has been to multiple pro bowls?
We're all Rams fans this year as well. Would be awesome to see him take them deep in a playoff run. Hope he loses to Goff and the Lions when they play this year (schedule is out next week I think) but the other 17 weeks I'll be rooting for him.
Yeah, I would rather have Goff over Stafford, for this year, next year, etc. He came up kind of small in games against teams with winning records and in playoff games.
Was HE the problem? Of course not. But he wasn't the answer either.
Dude is a really awesome person. Perfect face of the franchise type of athlete. But ultimately it's not about records, the legacy is determined by division titles, home playoff games, postseason success. Unfortunately he couldn't lift the team enough on his own to accomplish any of those things.
Best Lions QB of my lifetime by a good margin. But for whatever reason, he didn't really have that intangible thing where he made the players around him better. As a piece of the puzzle, guy has a cannon of an arm, makes unbelievable throws all the time. But here we are 12 years down the road and his shoddy footwork and weird arm angles and questionable throws when it wasn't his day are still there. They made him a little more efficient but I don't think at any time he was a top 5 QB. At best he was Statpadford and with enough volume, he gave off the illusion of being close to elite.
Goff played at a really high level two years ago. There is no comparison to the roster he is surrounded by now and the 2017-2018 Rams. But I do think he will make good decisions when his line protects him well and gives him time to go through his progressions. Even with the expansion team WR room they are sporting right now, I think he'll be better in 2021 then he was the last two seasons.
But if not, we'll move on. Just like we moved on from Matthew. I don't care who the QB is. I've been rooting for them since 1967. I just want to see on championship before I die, and I may not have that many years left.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I don't really expect him to contribute much this year. I do expect Okudoh to start playing like his draft capital by the second half of the this year. Remember Slay was pretty awful the first year and a half.
With Iffy - I think that's his nickname for now - he is strictly an off corner and has to be facing the action. Put him out on the X WR with trips on the other side with no help, oh gosh, that's gonna have an ugly outcome. But the thought is he is very physical, long and strong, and with proper coaching he might be a good press corner in two or three years. Right now he's CB4, maybe even CB5 behind Ford. But we have the new #23 and the third Nigerian (these names....the Amani dude) and Quiton Dunbar - that dude was awesome 2 years ago, IDK why he fell off last year - so that's three good cover corners.
Safety is kind of a train wreck rn though. Walker is inconsistent and Harris has been pretty bad considering where he was drafted. The other six safeties on the 90 man are pretty much mouth breathers.
But we had an incomprehensibly bad scheme the last few years. We led the league in man coverage In 2019, and played press coverage WAY too much in 2020. All while playing two-gap, stand em up, no blitz and just to make interesting let's have big body thumpers lose the RBs and TEs (JD and Tavai.) Hard to believe how bad Quintricia was at getting the athletes they needed for what they were trying to run. NEVER sent anyone and the D-line we had was never going to generate pressure.
Our DTs had 9 QB pressures last year; Michael Brockers had 10 all by himself. I think him and the two rookies are going to have an impact, and the Okwara brothers have potential to be outstanding (Romeo already is.) Flowers might not be in the LT plans but he's still effective.
I think we'll see a lot of varied looks with two Edge/OLBs alternating between rushing the passer or dropping into zone. If Aaron Glenn is as good as advertised we should have a lot of chaos being created from changing up the look. Seemed like Patricia and his DC were very predictable and pretty easy to game plan.
The best outcome would be a 11-14 loss season and build off next years draft. But it wouldn't be the worst thing if our D started to show some ability to stop the other team once in awhile. We should have a good run game with the line they have assembled, and I can't wait to see some right side screens with Penei out there destroying people.
Man it is insane how bad the four Detroit franchises are right now. My two favorites (Lions and Tigers) are especially bad, but of the four, I definitely think the football team is the one that is taking the right steps to get things turned around. Eventually.
Well next to Brady, Stafford is the GOAT at coming back. Whether you had 30 seconds down a score or 5 minutes down two scores, you knew Stafford would get you in position to tie or win the game. But for whatever reason, Stafford was not the same quarterback the first three quarters. Maybe it was play calling or lack of a running game. But he is an absolute master at running the hurry up offense. You really can't say enough about what a great character he was. Stafford loved the city and gave his heart to the team. There are a couple youtubers I just will never watch again because they bad mouthed Stafford.Love Matthew. Great guy. But he's never won a playoff game. Wanna know who has won multiple playoff games? He's been to one pro bowl. Wanna know who has been to multiple pro bowls?
We're all Rams fans this year as well. Would be awesome to see him take them deep in a playoff run. Hope he loses to Goff and the Lions when they play this year (schedule is out next week I think) but the other 17 weeks I'll be rooting for him.
Yeah, I would rather have Goff over Stafford, for this year, next year, etc. He came up kind of small in games against teams with winning records and in playoff games.
Was HE the problem? Of course not. But he wasn't the answer either.
Dude is a really awesome person. Perfect face of the franchise type of athlete. But ultimately it's not about records, the legacy is determined by division titles, home playoff games, postseason success. Unfortunately he couldn't lift the team enough on his own to accomplish any of those things.
Best Lions QB of my lifetime by a good margin. But for whatever reason, he didn't really have that intangible thing where he made the players around him better. As a piece of the puzzle, guy has a cannon of an arm, makes unbelievable throws all the time. But here we are 12 years down the road and his shoddy footwork and weird arm angles and questionable throws when it wasn't his day are still there. They made him a little more efficient but I don't think at any time he was a top 5 QB. At best he was Statpadford and with enough volume, he gave off the illusion of being close to elite.
Goff played at a really high level two years ago. There is no comparison to the roster he is surrounded by now and the 2017-2018 Rams. But I do think he will make good decisions when his line protects him well and gives him time to go through his progressions. Even with the expansion team WR room they are sporting right now, I think he'll be better in 2021 then he was the last two seasons.
But if not, we'll move on. Just like we moved on from Matthew. I don't care who the QB is. I've been rooting for them since 1967. I just want to see on championship before I die, and I may not have that many years left.
I have a hard time ever blaming Stafford for losing. The team was completely dependent upon him to win. He carried the team on his shoulders. When the defense can't make a stop, he had zero chance. But that is why this regime is much different. They will rely on winning the game in the trenches. The QB will run a ball control offense with a lot of short passes. Goff is more than capable of winning in this system.
Last edited by a moderator:
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
He was terrific. Man, how many games did he pull out when they were starting from their own 25 and had no timeouts? Rodgers might be the best front runner of all time (a la Tiger Woods), but I don't think I'd be as scared of him getting the ball back as Stafford. From his rookie year and right through to the end, he was always great at bringing his team back form deficits.
The awful offense in the first three quarters....I don't get it. You'd think it was HC/OC specific, but nope, there were a ton of games over the last decade where we just looked so unprepared and inept for the first three quarters. Then crunch time would come and they would march up and down the field like a hot knife through butter.
And 100 percent, dude was a great community guy. Really good person. People trash her bc she can be a bit much but I love Kelly, too. They're good people and I hope L.A. ends up being a great experience for the whole family.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Been said before but it bears repeating, a perfect trade in that both QBs needed a fresh start.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Yeah, very true. It's possible this ends up being beneficial for both of them.
Also, probably nobody cares one way or another, I'm really proud that they moved the face of the franchise and had zero drama. Look at what's going on in Green Bay, Houston, Seattle, and has happened often in the past when a franchise all-time great tried to move on (or vice versa.) It's really cool that they were able to accommodate Stafford, he's got a great opportunity to get a ring, we got a truckload of value for him, and everyone said goodbye on good terms. He's a good dude and I am happy for him that it worked out better than anyone could have imagined.
Deamon
Footballguy
This just blows me away haha. But you're entitled to your opinion and you know the Lions better than I do. But damn man. You must have been doing cartwheels with that trade since you got a QB upgrade in addition to 2 free first rounders.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I don't think Goff is a better quarterback. I think he's the better guy to have in there over the next two years while they lay the foundation. We'll know by the end of next season if he's the guy for long term.
Stafford is a talented guy with a big arm. But for a long time we didn't have a QB coach, and he initially balked at the idea of even having one (or anyone suggesting he needed one.) For a time his mechanics got better but his decision making got pretty conservative. He was less of a gunslinger. I wouldn't say he was uncoachable - he NEVER went public with any dispute with a coach or a teammate - but he's got some of the same bad habits and mechanics now that he had 12 years ago.
Anyway, point being, I'd rather have Goff in a fresh start. I also think Matthew is better off moving on. He is a good QB. He is not transcendent but there's only so many Tom Brady's at any one time. I honestly would not want #9 as part of the rebuild effort. Too much of it would be about accommodating him and making sure he's happy and comfortable and.....yeah, enough that. Time to move on.
(TBC - #9 was never a prima donna. but there is just a lot of baggage having him around, it's easier for the new regime to be working with their guy. or their next guy.)
Deamon
Footballguy
Ya you just had Stafford on your list of "guys goff is better than" so that's why I questioned it.
I agree that if I'm Detroit I'd rather have Goff this year than Stafford, in order to get a higher draft pick for a franchise QB next year.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Deamon
Footballguy
It will be interesting after all this Goff talk to see where he ends up. Most people in here say he is not in the bottom 1/3 of QBs, so it will be fun to see at the end of the year if he ends up in the top 20 QBR and PFF grades. I don't think he does, but we will see after the season.
Enjoy your evening.
I really like Stafford and Dislike Goff. I also like the Lions and Dislike the Rams. So I wasn't a fan of the trade since I can't cheer for Stafford anymore
But we'll revisit this after the season and see where Goff ends up.
I can't say this enough, but I really like how Sheila Ford Hemp is running the Lions. From her treatment of Stafford, to hiring Dan Campbell, to reaching out to Calvin Johnson. It is looking like a winning atmosphere. There is a unity and level of excitement that has not existed in this organization. The more I see Dan Campbell work, the more I really really like the guy. The exact opposite of Matty Patty.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Dan Campbell Checklist
-1st Rd Draft...Offensive Tackle
-2nd Rd Draft...Defensive Tackle
-3rd Rd Draft...Defensive Tackle
-Make my starting Center the highest paid at his position
This team is coming together quickly.
-1st Rd Draft...Offensive Tackle
-2nd Rd Draft...Defensive Tackle
-3rd Rd Draft...Defensive Tackle
-Make my starting Center the highest paid at his position
This team is coming together quickly.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
The Madden awareness level for kneecaps is going to be some of the highest around the NFL.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Somebody retweeted this quote from Wizzanator which cracks me up every time.
Legit quote from KJ: "I can’t learn anything from Swift because the way Swift’s knees bend and hips work, I can’t do any of that," Johnson said. "So when he comes up and does his little shaky-dake whatever thing, I can’t do that, so I just say, 'Good job.'
He’s got his $5.2M, beautiful fiancé, baby on the way - maybe he gets another gig, but whatever...he’s definitely a guy who is gonna handle this with “I’m good y’all.”
___________
Barry Sanders had 76 100-yard games in 153 career games.
Since then, the Lions have played 352 regular season games. Since #20 hung them up, exactly 30 100-yard rushers.
Since Reggie Bush had three century games in 2013, they’ve had exactly two.
One was Swift last year.
The other - stopping an NFL record of futility for the longest stretch between 100-yard rushers for a team - was Kerryon back in his rookie season. Sunday night game, against the Patriots. Most complete game (offense-defense-ST) I’ve ever seen the Lions put together.
No point to any of this but dang it hasn’t been easy rooting for these guys.
Legit quote from KJ: "I can’t learn anything from Swift because the way Swift’s knees bend and hips work, I can’t do any of that," Johnson said. "So when he comes up and does his little shaky-dake whatever thing, I can’t do that, so I just say, 'Good job.'
He’s got his $5.2M, beautiful fiancé, baby on the way - maybe he gets another gig, but whatever...he’s definitely a guy who is gonna handle this with “I’m good y’all.”
___________
Barry Sanders had 76 100-yard games in 153 career games.
Since then, the Lions have played 352 regular season games. Since #20 hung them up, exactly 30 100-yard rushers.
Since Reggie Bush had three century games in 2013, they’ve had exactly two.
One was Swift last year.
The other - stopping an NFL record of futility for the longest stretch between 100-yard rushers for a team - was Kerryon back in his rookie season. Sunday night game, against the Patriots. Most complete game (offense-defense-ST) I’ve ever seen the Lions put together.
No point to any of this but dang it hasn’t been easy rooting for these guys.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I am not a big Goff stan or anything. I think we should be looking to replace him in 2022 or 23 but the idea that he's bad or even significantly below average is wrong. He went toe to toe with Mahones 2 years ago in one of the greatest NFL games of all time.
Excluding his rookie year, Goff's career average is 4400/26/12 64% completion and 7.7 YPA, 94.1 Passer Rating.
Excluding his rookie year, Goff's career average is 4400/26/12 64% completion and 7.7 YPA, 94.1 Passer Rating.
Last edited by a moderator:
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Thanks, I always mix those up. When I was growing up we only had 1 of those QB metrics.
Foosball God
Foos
Lets not pretend that Goff has got a bunch of weapons this year though. This Lions team is not going to be good and I don't expect a middle level QB to be able to pull up the whole roster or anything.It will be interesting after all this Goff talk to see where he ends up. Most people in here say he is not in the bottom 1/3 of QBs, so it will be fun to see at the end of the year if he ends up in the top 20 QBR and PFF grades. I don't think he does, but we will see after the season.
I really like Stafford and Dislike Goff. I also like the Lions and Dislike the Rams. So I wasn't a fan of the trade since I can't cheer for Stafford anymore
But we'll revisit this after the season and see where Goff ends up.
Goff has finished 22, 22, 8, & 15 in PFF's rankings the last 4 years, for an average of 16.25. He's finished 23, 22, 10, 16 in ESPN's QBR, for an average of 17.25.
Basically... middle of the pack. I think that sounds right to me. Not bottom 3rd, not top 3rd, just in the middle. Excels when things are good around him, not so much when they aren't.
Basically... middle of the pack. I think that sounds right to me. Not bottom 3rd, not top 3rd, just in the middle. Excels when things are good around him, not so much when they aren't.
Deamon
Footballguy
So middle of the pack with fantastic coach/weapons.
Also yes you can average out those yrs but I think he's closer to the last 2 years now as he's really dropped off
Again, we'll see this year.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yep, totally agree. He will probably be worse this year because the Lions receiving options are so bad.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
He won't be as good this year. Detroit's receiving options are really bad. Goff is a perfectly adequate QB though to get Detroit to the next stage of the rebuild. He's also young enough where he could still improve. I would rather take a flyer on Goff with the benefit of receiving a 1st round pick than Carolina spending a 2nd to take a flyer on Darnold.
Tornacl
Footballguy
I think you're really over-estimating McVay. Ever since he went full-on conservative in the SuperBowl, his offenses have not been very impressive, even with the weapons. Now, that decline also coincides with Goff seemingly falling off a cliff. Is Goff a great QB? I doubt it. But I don't think all of the Rams' offensive struggles the past two seasons have been because of Goff.
And once a Coach-QB relationship starts to sour, there's almost never any coming back from that. It was clear the past couple of years that something had changed, but what was it?
I think that the atmosphere building in Detroit is going to be one that players want to be a part of. I would not be surprised if Goff has a resurgence, just because the extreme pressure is gone, trying to play for a control freak.
Deamon
Footballguy
We'll if he's not as good as the 22nd best qb he's been the last few yrs, then I put him bottom 10.
Hey I think Detroit made a great choice in taking Goff. I'm a huge fan of the trade they made (they wouldn't be a contender in staffords career), they had an amazing draft, and they're in position to take a franchise qb next year. This is AGAIN no slight at all on Detroit, theye positioning themselves to get themselves a good QB next year and move up in the div.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Deamon
Footballguy
I believe this is Goff's final full year as a starter in the league. But again, we will see how Detroit does this year. I do not think goff is a better qb than Stafford as some fans have stated in here, but I applaud Detroit for the move they made.
Deamon
Footballguy
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Goff Dammit, I've always enjoyed lurking in the Lions thread, but my GAWD the previous page was bad. I'm gonna go eat a figurative turd to get rid of the taste.
Tornacl
Footballguy
Well, I think he will have two years left as a starter.
Goff had more playoff victories (and Super Bowl appearances) in one season that ALL of the Lions QBs in the Super Bowl era COMBINED!
I've never said or thought Goff was better than Stafford, but I also know that Stafford has limitations as well.
I am interested to see how McVay does this year with a QB with Stafford's physical talent, while also seeing how he reacts when Stafford makes one of his patented costly mistakes. Maybe Stafford doesn't do that anymore, because he doesn't feel like he has to carry the team, but I would be comfortable taking that bet.
MAC_32
Footballguy
In Carolina with Rhule, Brady, and those weapons? I like the gamble. I'd hate it if Detroit 2021 had done it though.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
22nd is probably about right. That 14-26 range per year. Won't ever be a guy who can make plays on his own and take over games but also capable of making every throw on the field and running an offense. It's a big tier. Stafford is better but this also feels not to too dissimilar to the years of hearing about how Stafford sucked.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I deleted the post because I did misread it. He wouldn't get crap because he has a huge contract. He's not worth the $ that is for sure.
Deamon
Footballguy
We'll not from me. I've never thought Stafford has sucked. The guy has had very few weapons. Underrated qb.
Goff is the opposite. Has been below average the last couple years, and had all the tools and weapons to succeed.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Darnold with the Carolina offense, sure. On an even playing field, that's a bold take. I know Darnold's situation has been rough but he also has played really bad. I was a big fan of him coming out but it's hard for me to find anything nice to say about his play in the NFL.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Right, the reason this trade made so much sense is because of the albatross contract. Detroit isn't competing this year, so get the future assets when the team is ascending and take on the bad contract.
