3.9 million a year (1 Viewer)

[SacramentoBob]

Yeah, but we're probably making 10x that controlling the world's heroin supply now.

 

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 We stay forever? Did you know 24 soldiers every day commit suicide? That is more than are being killed or wounded in battle. These extended deployments are not only bad fiscally they are a horror show for my brothers and sisters in uniform. Destroying families and people. We need a new path this one is ugly and full of death.

While I am STRONGLY pro-military and soldier support (both during and after service)... these numbers are kinda BS.  Your statement of 24 soldiers committing suicide per day, in the context above, seems to imply that active duty soldiers overseas are offing themselves in droves as a result of these extended deployments. The reality is much different. 

• The number is 22 veterans per day... not 24, per the study by VA scientists. 
• The majority of veterans killing themselves are far too old to have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. That doesn't make the deaths okay, just not quite as relevant to the current scenario.
• Defense Department Epidemiologist Smolenski found that vets who served in Iraq/Afghanistan are actually committing suicide at far lower rates, about one per day.  

Some details from NPR 
 

 

[[icon]]

I did not know that.  That would amount to 8760 soldiers a year. 

That's more soldiers than are in Afghanistan right now.

Example of people being misled by NCCommish's misrepresentation of data. Not saying anything was malicious, nor am I saying that ANY veteran suicides were acceptable.... merely stating that we should look at the correct data in the correct context. 

 

[NCCommish]

While I am STRONGLY pro-military and soldier support (both during and after service)... these numbers are kinda BS.  Your statement of 24 soldiers committing suicide per day, in the context above, seems to imply that active duty soldiers overseas are offing themselves in droves as a result of these extended deployments. The reality is much different. 

• The number is 22 veterans per day... not 24, per the study by VA scientists. 
• The majority of veterans killing themselves are far too old to have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. That doesn't make the deaths okay, just not quite as relevant to the current scenario.
• Defense Department Epidemiologist Smolenski found that vets who served in Iraq/Afghanistan are actually committing suicide at far lower rates, about one per day.  

Some details from NPR 
 

Yeah I covered this further in.

 

[NCCommish]

Example of people being misled by NCCommish's misrepresentation of data. Not saying anything was malicious, nor am I saying that ANY veteran suicides were acceptable.... merely stating that we should look at the correct data in the correct context. 

No malice just unclear. And I did correct it.

 

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Yeah it is. Active duty 18-24 year olds are between 300-400 of those deaths. So slightly more than 1 a day.

Glad to see this was cleared up to a more accurate number of 1 per day active duty, which is a service pool of 1.4 Million soldiers in army/navy/airforce/marines... not sure if it includes the 800,000 reservists. Assuming it doesn't include the reservists, this number is actually around 25 per 100,000 soldiers annually, or about double the civilian age-adjusted suicide rate of 13 per 100,000. 

Thankfully that is a much lower rate than vets of other conflicts. Im glad there is improvement but I agree it's still too much. 

 

[timschochet]

I don't think it matters. As you say, any veteran suicides are unacceptable.

The bigger point is that NC was responding to my earlier post in which I raised the concern about pulling our remaining forces out of Afghanistan. NC had no answer to that concern other than we can't leave them in forever. I agree, but it doesn't change the problem- how can we remove them without risking the very fragile security of the area which we have worked so hard, and expended so much time, blood, and treasure to establish?

 

[NCCommish]

Glad to see this was cleared up to a more accurate number of 1 per day active duty, which is a service pool of 1.4 Million soldiers in army/navy/airforce/marines... not sure if it includes the 800,000 reservists. Assuming it doesn't include the reservists, this number is actually around 25 per 100,000 soldiers or about double the civillian age-adjusted suicide rate of 13 per 100,000. 

Thankfully that is a much lower rate than vets of other conflicts. Im glad there is improvement but I agree it's still too much. 

I hate to get things wrong or to be confusing. I try to always be clear and accurate. I wasn't.

 

[NCCommish]

I don't think it matters. As you say, any veteran suicides are unacceptable.

The bigger point is that NC was responding to my earlier post in which I raised the concern about pulling our remaining forces out of Afghanistan. NC had no answer to that concern other than we can't leave them in forever. I agree, but it doesn't change the problem- how can we remove them without risking the very fragile security of the area which we have worked so hard, and expended so much time, blood, and treasure to establish?

The second we leave you know what happens. We can't stop it only the people of Afghanistan can. And I do have solutions. But we are so far down the road to trying to kill.our way out it seems we have likely lost the opportunity to use other methods. We blew it. Again. We should really get out of the regime change business. We suck at it.

 

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I hate to get things wrong or to be confusing. I try to always be clear and accurate. I wasn't.

GB you're one of the best posters on these boards. I never meant to imply you were intentionally misleading anyone.   Have nothing but the utmost respect for you here... just wanted to get the numbers out there. The fact that it's DOUBLE the civillian rate sucks the high hard one and needs to be addressed post haste. 

Hell...Just last night a Vietnam vet in Memphis committed suicide by walking into traffic on I240. Unfortunately it was a TN Air Guard solidier who hit him on his way into work. The driver's best friend is currently on a mission in Spain with one of my best buddies and, word is, albeit 3rd party, that the driver is pretty distraught. That's likely going to haunt him. Sucks. :(

 

 

[NCCommish]

GB you're one of the best posters on these boards. I never meant to imply you were intentionally misleading anyone.   Have nothing but the utmost respect for you here... just wanted to get the numbers out there. The fact that it's DOUBLE the civillian rate sucks the high hard one and needs to be addressed post haste. 

Hell...Just last night a Vietnam vet in Memphis committed suicide by walking into traffic on I240. Unfortunately it was a TN Air Guard solidier who hit him on his way into work. His best friend is currently in Spain with one of my best buddies and word is, albeit 3rd party, that the guy who hit the vet is pretty distraught. That's likely going to haunt him. Sucks. :(

 

I can't even imagine. I'm not sure how you even begin to deal with that. I hope he gets all the help he needs to do so. And I hope the family of the vet that died knows a lot of us are heartbroken with them. I haven't been active for a long time but these are still my brothers and sisters, they deserve better.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

A very fair request. I'll see if I can find the original CRS report and provide a link. I will say more soldiers means more ammo, more food, more water, more barracks, etc. I don't think this is a case where buying in bulk helps much.

It probably is, actually. Or it ought to be.

But that doesn't negate your point that it is a lot of money to pour into this particularly sinkhole.

 

[NCCommish]

It probably is, actually. Or it ought to be.

But that doesn't negate your point that it is a lot of money to pour into this particularly sinkhole.

You guys don't understand how ####ed up DoD is when it comes to spending your money. One example. On a C130 the paratroop doors have a window. It is two pieces of lexan screwed together. You have to replace the outer one whenever it is scratched to a certain degree. The inner virtually never requires replacement. It doesn't get scratched. You couldn't tell them apart if they didn't come in different boxes. We looked up the specs and they were identical. Surprisingly the outer window which got replaced about every 3 months cost several times what the inner one did. That's how DoD works. It's a giant cash trough for the military industrial complex. And they gorge themselves.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

No malice just unclear. And I did correct it.

Knowing you I was confident you would.  That's why I was non-confrontational in my approach to noticing things.  You are a solid guy, always well thought out.  In this case just a tad unclear in expressing your knowledge.  Writing is like that.  It can be a challenging vehicle for expression of thought if we are not cautious.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

You guys don't understand how ####ed up DoD is when it comes to spending your money. One example. On a C130 the paratroop doors have a window. It is two pieces of lexan screwed together. You have to replace the outer one whenever it is scratched to a certain degree. The inner virtually never requires replacement. It doesn't get scratched. You couldn't tell them apart if they didn't come in different boxes. We looked up the specs and they were identical. Surprisingly the outer window which got replaced about every 3 months cost several times what the inner one did. That's how DoD works. It's a giant cash trough for the military industrial complex. And they gorge themselves.

Oh, I know that there is massive waste. I was just making the same observation that a few others made in this thread: that incremental boots on the ground ought to cost less than the initial ones. Whether they do or not, I do not know.

And unlike most things relating to politics and economics, this is something you and I are in general agreement on.

I am very supportive of our service members and I want a strong defense, but there is no question we spend far too much money on it. Partly due to being gouged by the defense industry, partly due to a bizarre and counter-productive procurement process, and partly due to sheer incompetence. 

 

[NutterButter]

You guys don't understand how ####ed up DoD is when it comes to spending your money. One example. On a C130 the paratroop doors have a window. It is two pieces of lexan screwed together. You have to replace the outer one whenever it is scratched to a certain degree. The inner virtually never requires replacement. It doesn't get scratched. You couldn't tell them apart if they didn't come in different boxes. We looked up the specs and they were identical. Surprisingly the outer window which got replaced about every 3 months cost several times what the inner one did. That's how DoD works. It's a giant cash trough for the military industrial complex. And they gorge themselves.

I think a lot of us understand.   There was the post not too long ago about the study done by McKinsey which was commissioned by the pentagon showing $125B in waste in the pentagon back office.  

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I think a lot of us understand.   There was the post not too long ago about the study done by McKinsey which was commissioned by the pentagon showing $125B in waste in the pentagon back office.  

If that is waste I want the contract to pick up their trash.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Like I've said for over a decade now, the debt is meaningless. 20T..... Who cares.

I don't know if you are being serious or not. I hope not.

Because if you are, that is just an astonishingly ignorant statement.

 

[NCCommish]

I think a lot of us understand.   There was the post not too long ago about the study done by McKinsey which was commissioned by the pentagon showing $125B in waste in the pentagon back office.  

And that number is when they stopped looking not the final total.

 

[SacramentoBob]

We're not leaving.

 

[jon_mx]

Funny, before Obamacare the cost was like $500k. 

 

[shadrap]

I don't think it matters. As you say, any veteran suicides are unacceptable.

The bigger point is that NC was responding to my earlier post in which I raised the concern about pulling our remaining forces out of Afghanistan. NC had no answer to that concern other than we can't leave them in forever. I agree, but it doesn't change the problem- how can we remove them without risking the very fragile security of the area which we have worked so hard, and expended so much time, blood, and treasure to establish?

Don't know either except the latest book I just read "And all Hell Broke Loose", by Richard Engel describes his time(two decades) as a war correspondent during the Iraq war & all the crap happening over there including the Arab Spring.   He says " between President Bush's misguided military action & President Obama's inconsistent & confused action, the United States managed to destroy the status quo in just fifteen years, plunging the entire region into chaos & exposing the rot that had long been festering within".  sorry, probably for a different thread but the whole situation over there is hopeless & a waste of money.  IMO.

 

[jon_mx]

I don't know if you are being serious or not. I hope not.

Because if you are, that is just an astonishingly ignorant statement.

Many economists have argued that deficits are meaningless, Paul Krugman has for instance.  At least when Obama was in office.  Now his view is changing.  

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Many economists have argued that deficits are meaningless, Paul Krugman has for instance.  At least when Obama was in office.  Now his view is changing.  

Deficits are a yearly measure. Debt is the accumulation of deficits.

In isolation, deficits can be argued to be meaningless. Total debt can't.

 

[popeye]

Airbnb is the way to go here

 

[jon_mx]

Deficits are a yearly measure. Debt is the accumulation of deficits.

In isolation, deficits can be argued to be meaningless. Total debt can't.

Krugman has an whole article entitled Debt is Good.  

 

[tommyGunZ]

And I don't think it would have happened if Hillary had squeaked out a win. 3 million women world wide wouldn't have been in the street. People wouldn't be showing up to town halls pissed off over cabinet nominees. Even though the same grifters would be getting the gravy and we would be getting screwed. Trump has taken away the pretty face of neoliberalism with his ham handed approach. Sure Hillary wouldn't have appointed Tillerson but she would have appointed someone who owed him. Hate DeVos? Might want to look into what Obama's Ed Secy was up to. But there weren't millions of calls about him were there? Nope. Same circus, different clowns.

Your original post in this thread is one of the best posts I've ever read in this forum. I was ready to run through a wall with you. Then you post this silliness equating Hillary to Trump and I'm left shaking my head wondering what world you are living in.  

 

[tommyGunZ]

According to the Congressional Research Service, or CRS, that was the cost of keeping one soldier in Afghanistan for one year as of Jan 2015. I think we can assume a little inflation over the last two years and round it up to 4 million. 4,000,000 per year per soldier. There are currently 8400 American soldiers in Afghanistan. so 8400 times 4,000,000 carry the one and we get about 33 billion a year. 33,000,000,000 a year. And the general in charge wants a few thousand more soldiers and he wants us to put money into the Afghan Air Force. No cost estimate of course just give me the damn money. And if we do those things then everything will be peachy? Seems hard to believe but military strategy aside I am going to ask the following question how are we going to pay for it? We have already spent something over 4 trillion, which is the most conservative estimate, in Iraq and Afghanistan. 4,000,000,000,000.00 minimum. Yet our citizens are drinking water with toxic lead levels. Our infrastructure is crumbling. 45,000 people a year die due to inability to get adequate healthcare. Children go hungry. We are told we don't have the money. We don't have the money for WIC. We don't have the money for food stamps. We don't have the money for single payer healthcare. We don't have the money for universal college. We always have the money for another bomb though don't we?

So of course the reality is we have the money for anything we want. We don't have the desire to do these things. Our priorities are ####ed up in the extreme. So the next time a politician tells you we don't have the money to do nation building at home realize what they are really saying is i don't get contributions from inner city kids who are being poisoned by the water they drink so #### them. Those 45,000 dead people can't write a check so #### them. The people bankrupted by medical bills can't write me a check so #### them. People who can't afford to go to college can't write me a 6 figure check so #### them. Plus once the lead messes those inner city kids up and that leads to mental issues then we get to lock them up, that's how we handle mental health issues now, so the guys who pay me from the private prison corporations can pay me more. Win, win.

Don't see how enabling a kleptocracy is a core principle for anyone not getting those checks.

With posters I agree with 95% of the time, I feel like I end up only replying in the rare occasions we disagree. Which likely skews that poster's impression of how I value their contributions.  I'm trying to make a better effort to show love when I agree - this post is fantastic. Always enjoy your stuff NCC, even when I disagree, like in the previous post.

BTW, do you have a link to the CRS report estimating $3.9M? It would be helpful to have for future reference.  

 

[MaxThreshold]

There is an opportunity for the left if they will start emphasizing these kinds of things. Health care, jobs, clean energy and drinking water, infrastructure repair -- focus needs to happen on these issues because they are things that really will MAGA.

Nah.  We need to make sure Transgender teens have their own bathroom.  Priorities, y'know?

 

[NCCommish]

Your original post in this thread is one of the best posts I've ever read in this forum. I was ready to run through a wall with you. Then you post this silliness equating Hillary to Trump and I'm left shaking my head wondering what world you are living in.  

The real world. I'm sorry that you can't see it. You know I love ya man but it's past time to get real. Now obviously I don't think Hillary would be blowing Putin like Trump is but that swamp he talked about is real. And a lot of Democrats, including Hillary, were and are right there wallowing in it. She raised a billion dollars, where is it? DNC can't or won't tell you. The states never got the money they were supposedly going to get. Why? Because it was never intended for them. It was a simple money laundering scheme to get around campaign law. It was brilliant in its own way. And it was the epitome of the problem, of the corruption.

Come on man. Come with me. You know me. I'm not some Pizzagate crackpot. I do my homework. I value my reputation and I work hard to be honest and right when I say something. Evem if no one likes it. I wouldn't lie to you. In your heart you know I'm right. Until we admit the problem we can't fix it. Until we admit that Democrats have screwed the middle class we can't stop them. Until we admit they are just as corrupted by money as any human being would be we are screwed. I am telling you if you want a better world for your kids we need to make a drastic change and we need to get real. If I have built up even a little bit of credibility even a shred with you take a leap of faith my friend.

To quote MLK - you don't have to see the whole staircase just that first step. I know you are a good guy who cares. I know your heart is in the right place. I know you truly want the best America we can make. Take my hand and join me in serving those beautiful principles I know you embrace. Not some party that hasn't earned you and in fact discounts you, me and all the people we care about. Stand for  the people that need you. Stand for workers for real not just lip service. Stand for the weak and the afraid. They need us more than ever. Stand for the civilians killed by an out of control drone war. Stand for freedom against a tyrannical surveillance state. Stand with me against the people who stand against us all.

It's never to late to do the right thing my friend. You will always have a seat waiting at my table any time you want to take it. And I will continue to fight for you and yours regardless. Because I love this country, I love it's people and I refuse to stand by one second longer while its promise is  being perverted. By anyone, no matter the letter after their name.

And that invitation goes out to anyone willing to fight to take this country back. We can argue policy minutae later. Let's clear the decks of these paid off #######s and get real before it's to late. Midnight is drawing nigh will we be here come dawn? I sure intend to be and the more of us that say not today,.not on my watch the more likely we all are to get to see that beautiful sunrise again over the home of the brave and the land of the fiercely free. You know you want to. But even if you don't join me I will fight until the bitter end. They'll get this country when they pry it from my cold dead hands and not a minute before.

 

[Hastur]

Represent Us

Everybody needs to start joining this group and volunteering their time and effort.  Share the link on as many social media platforms as you can, and encourage people to commit their time and effort.  Lastly, have them share the link on as many social platforms as they can.

 

[NCCommish]

Represent Us

Everybody needs to start joining this group and volunteering their time and effort.  Share the link on as many social media platforms as you can, and encourage people to commit their time and effort.  Lastly, have them share the link on as many social platforms as they can.

In