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75 Years since Infamy: December 7, 1941 (1 Viewer)

timschochet

timschochet

Footballguy
75 is not the anniversary that 50 or 100 is, but it's still pretty significant. I can't imagine there are too many people left who were adults when this event happened, but it's arguably the most pivotal moment in modern American history. The only thing close is JFK's assassination and the attack on 9/11.

I still remember, on the 50th anniversary, the speech that George H. W. Bush gave. He was never a great speech maker, but that was an outstanding effort.

 
Japan thought they gave us a death blow.  I hope the comment " We've just awoken a sleeping giant" is true because it was appropriate.

 
irishidiot said:
Japan thought they gave us a death blow.  I hope the comment " We've just awoken a sleeping giant" is true because it was appropriate.
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No they didn't. Their intent was to knock us out of the Pacific, so that they could consolidate after invading the Philippines and Singapore. But they didn't think they would destroy the US or invade us.

They could have achieved their goals if they had only knocked out Hawaii's oil supplies. They had the chance.

 
The farther we move away from it, chronologically and spiritually, the more deeply i am moved by the call America answered that day. 

 
One of the highlights of my life was visiting Pearl Harbor a couple of times. So many emotions and thoughts going there. The one that always gets me is the list of men and women who died and how they have it in the Arizona Memorial.

And you have the list of men and women survivors whose final wish was to be entombed with their shipmates, and were brought back after their death years later.

 
wikkidpissah said:
The farther we move away from it, chronologically and spiritually, the more deeply i am moved by the call America answered that day. 
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Agreed, but I strongly disagree that patriotism has waned all that much. That was the claim made during the Vietnam War but we weren't attacked by North Vietnam, so a lot of Americans couldn't justify our reason for being there.

After 9/11 was attacked, the nation was just as united as we were after Pearl Harbor. I believe that if on September 12, 2001, President Bush had said, "We're going to crush radical Islam and to do so we need an army of 3 million men so I am re-instituting the draft", Americans would have rushed to enlist just as they did on December 8, 1941. But instead Bush told the public that we should go on as if everything was the same and nothing had happened. Whether or not that was the correct decision is arguable, But it was a lost moment.

 
6 men were sent out in this unarmed mail plane to find the Japanese Navy.

The ungainly Navy airplane at the National Air and Space Museum’s Udvar-Hazy Center in Chantilly, Va., is one of the few original U.S. aircraft in existence that flew against the Japanese armada that day.

Then painted silver and orange-yellow, with a bright green tail and red trim, it was an unlikely combatant.

Designed as a small airliner — a “baby clipper” — it was unarmed and part of a unit called Utility Squadron One, which hauled mail, sailors and Navy photographers around the Hawaiian islands.

It had window curtains and a restroom with porcelain fixtures. Its top speed was just over 100 mph.

With Pearl Harbor a scene of death and devastation that Sunday morning, Plane No. 1063 — its insignia a pelican carrying a mailbag — was ordered to seek out the enemy.

For armament, the 28-year-old pilot, Ensign Wesley Hoyt Ruth, and his five-man crew were issued three World War I-era rifles.

Their task: Report the location of the six Japanese aircraft carriers, two battleships, assorted escort ships and hundreds of enemy airplanes that had been involved in the attack.

“This is going to be a one-way trip,” Ruth later said he thought.
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So why was the US so unprepared for this attack? Most of the reason was psychological: we never believed that Japan (or anybody else) would dare to attack us.

Another reason was a change in technology that the USA pioneered. We developed the aircraft carrier, but the Navy was run by old timers who thought that the battleship was still the dominant vessel of the sea. The Japanese showed us that we were wrong (just as the Germans a year before had demonstrated the proper use of tanks in warfare.)

 
timschochet said:
So why was the US so unprepared for this attack? Most of the reason was psychological: we never believed that Japan (or anybody else) would dare to attack us.

Another reason was a change in technology that the USA pioneered. We developed the aircraft carrier, but the Navy was run by old timers who thought that the battleship was still the dominant vessel of the sea. The Japanese showed us that we were wrong (just as the Germans a year before had demonstrated the proper use of tanks in warfare.)
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Couple things:

- Beginning about November 28th the armed forces knew that “surprise aggressive action at any moment” was possible.

Problem was it was not clear where an attack would take place and also the defenses around PH had been neglected for years:

In fact, officers in Washington, not the commanders in Hawaii, should have borne the lion’s share of the blame for the surprise at Pearl Harbor. Throughout 1941, Navy headquarters had failed to meet Kimmel’s repeated requests for more reconnaissance planes and crew, which might have made it possible to spot the Japanese strike force as it approached Hawaii.

Worse, Washington had failed to pass along intelligence pointing to Pearl Harbor as a likely target—denying Kimmel key data that could have alerted him to Tokyo’s plans. Hesitation and incompetence in the final hours before the attack—not least by Adm. Harold Stark, the chief of naval operations—meant that a last-minute warning didn’t reach Kimmel until eight hours after the attack began.
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http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-admiral-who-took-the-fall-for-pearl-harbor-1480702396?mod=e2tw

- In general the US was a pacifist nation and frankly the imperialist mentality was not something anyone was prepared to confront. Same thing occurred in the UK and France.

 
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timschochet said:
So why was the US so unprepared for this attack? Most of the reason was psychological: we never believed that Japan (or anybody else) would dare to attack us.

Another reason was a change in technology that the USA pioneered. We developed the aircraft carrier, but the Navy was run by old timers who thought that the battleship was still the dominant vessel of the sea. The Japanese showed us that we were wrong (just as the Germans a year before had demonstrated the proper use of tanks in warfare.)
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They knew.

 
Dorie Miller: The mess hall machine gunner of Pearl Harbor


When Lieutenant Commander Shigeharu Murata launched the first of nine Japanese torpedoes to hit the U.S.S. West Virginia, Doris "Dorie" Miller had just finished breakfast mess duty and was collecting dirty laundry. By adding the extra laundry duty, he earned an extra five dollars a month to send back home to his family in Texas.

The explosions rocked the ship and our nation.

As Miller reached his combat station, he discovered it was already devastated from the initial attack, so he rerouted to "Times Square" at the intersection of the port to starboard and forward to aft passageways to await further instruction.

From there Miller was ordered to carry the ships mortally wounded Captain Mervin Bennion from the bridge to safer quarters. Unfortunately, Miller was forced to put down the captain just aft of the conning tower when the cot used to carry him nearly broke.

The scene was unimaginably chaotic. 

Seaman First Class Chris Beal on the nearby USS Maryland recalled "I still remember their 'banshee death wail' as they dived on us, then the whistle of bombs, near misses, and the engine re-gaining altitude as they pulled up over us...."

As sailors searched for materials to lower the captain, Lieutenant Frederick White loaded the two machine guns forward of the conning tower and assigned Miller to one of them. Miller didn't know much about the weapon, but he fired away. In 1942, Miller recounted, "It wasn't hard. I just pulled the trigger and she worked fine. I had watched the others with these guns. I guess I fired her for about fifteen minutes. I think I got one of those *** planes. They were diving pretty close to us."

But it wasn't merely his impromptu machine gun fire that made him a hero. As the ship was sinking, Miller carried on. With a serious oil fire on deck and smoke billowing from the critically damaged hull, Miller helped rescue sailors from the water.

According to the action report from Commander R.H. Hillenkoetter, Miller was "instrumental in hauling people along through oil and water to the quarterdeck, thereby unquestionably saving the lives of a number of people who might otherwise have been lost."

Dorie Miller's brave actions earned the mess hall and laundry attendant from Waco, Texas, the Navy Cross, the Navy's highest medal.

Miller continued to serve in the Pacific until he was killed in action when a Japanese submarine's torpedo hit a bomb magazine on the U.S.S. Liscome Bay on November 24, 1943. The explosion sunk the ship within minutes and killed 646 of the 918 sailors on board.

...
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http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/05/dorie_miller_the_mess_hall_mac.html

 
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Story about kids in school on the island at the time and how they still get together was in many newspapers today. Picture of two ladies includes my father-in-laws cousin.

 
timschochet said:
So why was the US so unprepared for this attack? Most of the reason was psychological: we never believed that Japan (or anybody else) would dare to attack us.

Another reason was a change in technology that the USA pioneered. We developed the aircraft carrier, but the Navy was run by old timers who thought that the battleship was still the dominant vessel of the sea. The Japanese showed us that we were wrong (just as the Germans a year before had demonstrated the proper use of tanks in warfare.)
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Well, the Russians showed them a thing or two at Kursk

 
Death was everywhere. The toll that day among military personnel is widely known. Of the 2,335 servicemen killed in the attack, nearly half died on the USS Arizona when a Japanese bomb blew up the battleship’s forward gunpowder magazine, ripping the ship apart. Hundreds also died aboard other stricken naval vessels and in bombing and strafing attacks at nearby airfields.

But few people realize that 68 civilians were also killed in the attack. Japanese fighters strafed and bombed a small number. Most, however, died in friendly fire when shells from Coast Guard ships and anti-aircraft batteries on shore aimed at the Japanese fell into Honolulu and elsewhere on the island. Eleven of the dead were children ages 16 and younger.

The Hirasaki family suffered some of the worst losses that terrible morning. The Japanese-American mother, father and their three children. ages 2, 3 and 8, together with a 14-year-old cousin, sheltered in the family’s downtown Honolulu restaurant. An errant shell struck the building. Only the mother survived. Seven other patrons taking cover there also died in the blast.
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http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/children-pearl-harbor-180961290/#OAC2wFXdMGf5e0J8.99
 
Honolulu firefighters were among Pearl Harbor attack victims


A date which will live in infamy was also a day the Honolulu Fire Department unexpectedly went to war.

On Dec. 7, 1941, Engine 6 was the first to respond to Hickam Airfield.

“They were used to seeing practice anti-aircraft artillery and they knew that to be white smoke, white puffs in the sky,” said Capt. David Jenkins, Honolulu Fire Department. “This morning, those puffs were black. They knew it was live ammunition and Oahu was under attack.”

Bodies were everywhere, hangars and aircraft burned out of control.

Hoseman Harry Tuck Lee Pang was killed after being shot in the abdomen. Crews ran to a hangar but that proved to be unsafe.

“The hangar was struck itself and two other firefighters, captains Macy and Carreira were also fatally injured,” Jenkins said.

Three firefighters died and six were wounded. All received the Purple Heart.

“It’s something that distinguishes the Honolulu Fire Department among all the other departments in the United States,” Jenkins said. “We’re the only department that has members, civilian members that were awarded the Purple Heart.” ...
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http://wbay.com/2016/12/06/honolulu-firefighters-were-among-pearl-harbor-attack-victims/

 
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ChiefD said:
One of the highlights of my life was visiting Pearl Harbor a couple of times. So many emotions and thoughts going there. The one that always gets me is the list of men and women who died and how they have it in the Arizona Memorial.

And you have the list of men and women survivors whose final wish was to be entombed with their shipmates, and were brought back after their death years later.
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Going to Pearl Harbor is a sobering experience. The USS Arizona memorial is hard to describe. The oil, the wall of names, the turret mounts, knowing your standing above a giant tomb. 

 
timschochet said:
still remember, on the 50th anniversary, the speech that George H. W. Bush gave. He was never a great speech maker, but that was an outstanding effort.
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http://delsjourney.com/uss_neosho/aftermath/bush_speech_ph_1991.htm

I remember exactly when I first heard the news about Pearl Harbor. I was 17 years old, walking across the green at school. And my thoughts in those days didn't run to world events, but mainly to simpler things, more mundane things like making the basketball team or entering college. And that walk across the campus marked an end of innocence for me.

When Americans heard the news, they froze in shock. But just as quickly we came together. Like all American kids back then, I was swept up in it. I decided that very day to go into the Navy to become a Navy pilot. And so, on my 18th birthday — June 12, 1942 — I was sworn into the Navy as a Seaman Second Class.

And I was shocked — I was shocked at my first sight of Pearl Harbor several months later — April of '44. We came into port on the carrier San Jacinto. Nearby, the Utah was still on her side, parts of the Arizona still stood silent in the water. Everywhere the skeletons of ships reached out as if to demand remembrance and warn us of our own mortality.

Over 2,000 men died in a matter of minutes on this site, a half century ago. Many more died that same day as Japanese forces assaulted the Philippines and Guam and Wake Island, Midway, Malaya, Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong. On that day of infamy, Pearl Harbor propelled each of us into a titanic contest for mankind's future. It galvanized the American spirit as never before into a single-minded resolve that could produce only one thing — victory . . .

We triumphed, despite the fact that the American people did not want to be drawn into the conflict — "the unsought war," it's been called. Ironically, isolationists gathered together at what was known in those days as an "America First" rally in Pittsburgh — at precisely the moment the first Americans met early, violent deaths right here at Pearl Harbor. The isolationists failed to see that the seeds of Pearl Harbor were sown back in 1919, when a victorious America decided that in the absence of a threatening enemy abroad, we should turn all of our energies inward. That notion flew escort for the very bombers that attacked our men 50 years ago . . .

In remembering, it is important to come to grips with the past. No nation can fully understand itself or find its place in the world if it does not look with clear eyes at all the glories and disgraces, too, of the past. We in the United States acknowledge such an injustice in our own history: The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry was a great injustice, and it will never be repeated.

The values we hold dear as a nation — equality of opportunity, freedom of religion and speech and assembly, free and vigorous elections — are now revered by many nations. Our greatest victory in World War II took place not on the field of battle, but in nations we once counted as foes. The ideals of democracy and liberty have triumphed in a world once threatened with conquest by tyranny and despotism . . .

Recently, a letter arrived from the son of a Pearl harbor survivor, a Navy man named Bill Leu, who is with us here today. His son writes from his home, now in Tokyo, saying: "A half century ago, my father's thoughts were on surviving the attack and winning the war. He could not have envisioned a future where his son would study and work in Japan. But he recognizes that the world has changed, that America's challenges are different. My father's attitude represents that of the United States: Do your duty, and raise the next generation to do its."

I can understand Bill's feelings. I wondered how I'd feel being with you, the veterans of Pearl Harbor — the survivors — on this very special day. And I wondered if I would feel that intense hatred that all of us felt for the enemy 50 years ago. As I thought back to that day of infamy and the loss of friends, I wondered: What will my reaction be when I go back to Pearl Harbor?

Well, let me tell you how I feel. I have no rancor in my heart toward Germany or Japan — none at all. And I hope, in spite of the loss, that you have none in yours. This is no time for recrimination.

World War II is over. It is history. We won. We crushed totalitarianism — and when that was done, we helped our enemies give birth to democracies. We made our enemies our friends . . .

No, just speaking for one guy, I have no rancor in my heart. I can still see the faces of fallen comrades, and I'll bet you can still see the faces, too . . . But don't you think they're saying 50 years have passed, and we are at peace?  Don't you think each one is saying: "I did not die in vain"?

May God bless each of you who sacrificed and served. And may God grant His loving protection to this, the greatest country on the face of the Earth, the United States of America.

Thank you all, and God bless you. Thank you very much.
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timschochet said:
After 9/11 was attacked, the nation was just as united as we were after Pearl Harbor. I believe that if on September 12, 2001, President Bush had said, "We're going to crush radical Islam and to do so we need an army of 3 million men so I am re-instituting the draft", Americans would have rushed to enlist just as they did on December 8, 1941. But instead Bush told the public that we should go on as if everything was the same and nothing had happened. Whether or not that was the correct decision is arguable, But it was a lost moment.
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What would you have preferred he said Tim?

 
ChiefD said:
One of the highlights of my life was visiting Pearl Harbor a couple of times. So many emotions and thoughts going there. The one that always gets me is the list of men and women who died and how they have it in the Arizona Memorial.

And you have the list of men and women survivors whose final wish was to be entombed with their shipmates, and were brought back after their death years later.
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I've been there a couple of times and both times I've been absolutely impressed by the respect people show when they're at the Memorial. Both times it was amazingly quiet even with all of the people, including children. If people were talking at all, it was in a whisper or a very low voice. 

 
The US were lucky the Aircraft carriers were out.  Not sure it would've mattered  if we did know.  Going out to meet Japan at sea at that time would've ended poorly for us. 

 
flapgreen said:
The US were lucky the Aircraft carriers were out.  Not sure it would've mattered  if we did know.  Going out to meet Japan at sea at that time would've ended poorly for us. 
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The Enterprise and Lexington were commanded by Admiral Halsey and he narrowly missed the Japanese fleet. There's some fictional alternate history books in which he meets them and gets destroyed, and Japan decides to invade Hawaii- but the logistics of that always seemed unlikely to me. 

Certainly if they could have taken the carriers, they could then have taken Midway in June of 1942, which would have led to a stalemate for the moment- I still don't know if Japan invades Hawaii at that point, but at the very least they could have prevented American forays into the Pacific and threatened Australia. But in the end they would have faced the same problem: America's incredible manufacturing base. Even if the war had been delayed from ending for another 2-3 years, we would still eventually have overwhelmed them in sheer number of machines. 

 
I'm only guessing but I think W's point was don't give the terrorists the power to affect us with their attack. 

 
flapgreen said:
I'm only guessing but I think W's point was don't give the terrorists the power to affect us with their attack. 
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I know that and I don't necessarily disagree; I'm only pointing out that's the main difference between 9/11 and Pearl Harbor, because otherwise they were very unifying incidents. 

 
DECEMBER 7, 1941: NO TIME TO SPARE


By ART BUCHWALD December 5, 1991
The phone has been ringing off the hook with calls from historians who want to know what I was doing on Dec. 7, 1941. After the third query, it occurred to me that I was giving out information I could easily use myself.

This is what I was doing on the Day of Infamy, which my father always referred to as the Day of Chutzpah. There were five friends at the Forest Hills Bowling Alley in the borough of Queens in New York City.

They were Bob Markay, Arnie Alperstein, George Hankoff, **** Zimmerman and myself. All of us were 16 years old, and, next to bowling, our major topics of conversation were Glenn Miller, college football and girls. We were weak in current events.

It was early in the afternoon. George was ready to bowl when someone yelled from the cash register.

"The Japs have bombed Pearl Harbor."

Before we go any further, I want to explain that none of us were "politically correct" in those days, and we called the Japanese Japs. We called them a lot worse names when we heard they had sunk the entire U.S. fleet in Hawaii.

You cannot imagine our shock when the news sunk in.

I was going for a spare and missed it by two feet.

We gathered around the radio. Franklin Roosevelt came on the air and gave us the story. It was as if our father was telling us that a family member had died. When Roosevelt finished we looked at each other in silence.

Arnie broke it when he said, "We'll beat the friggin' blank-blanks in two weeks."

**** added: "It won't take that long. They don't have any oil."

"How do you know that?" I asked.

"It was in Walter Winchell's column," he replied. "Besides, they eat raw fish and when we bottle up Tokyo Bay they'll starve to death."

Bob said: "I hope the war isn't over before we get in. I wouldn't mind killing some Japs."

"It will be over by then. We'll probably be part of the occupation army and go to dances with geisha girls and have great parties in the emperor's palace."

I said, "Maybe the Japs did more damage to Pearl Harbor than Roosevelt is admitting."

"How can they do any damage? Their planes are made of rice paper. Have you ever seen anything manufactured in Japan that could fly? Don't forget that the United States has the best antiaircraft weapons in the world."

"Where did you hear that?" George wanted to know.

"I saw it in Marvel Comics."

I declared: "We'll have them on their knees by Christmas. In the movies they're always falling down when it comes to hand-to-hand fighting."

We stood around discussing the military aspects of the sneak attack, as well as how our armed forces should respond. We weren't sure what measures Roosevelt ought to take, but we all agreed we should teach the Japs a lesson they'd never forget.

Little did we know that someday there would be nothing but Toyotas.

We couldn't do anything until we had more information, so we went back to the lanes. Arnie bowled 209, George scored 198, **** got a 183, Bob also got 183, and my score was 160. Whenever people have asked me what I thought of Pearl Harbor, I always tell the truth -- I was bowled over.
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timschochet said:
Agreed, but I strongly disagree that patriotism has waned all that much. That was the claim made during the Vietnam War but we weren't attacked by North Vietnam, so a lot of Americans couldn't justify our reason for being there.

After 9/11 was attacked, the nation was just as united as we were after Pearl Harbor. I believe that if on September 12, 2001, President Bush had said, "We're going to crush radical Islam and to do so we need an army of 3 million men so I am re-instituting the draft", Americans would have rushed to enlist just as they did on December 8, 1941. But instead Bush told the public that we should go on as if everything was the same and nothing had happened. Whether or not that was the correct decision is arguable, But it was a lost moment.
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laughable

 
Thanks to @SaintsInDome2006 for all of the articles and pics.

I hope everyone can agree that arguing over other events in comparison of Pearl Harbor is stupid and detracts from the purpose of this thread - remembering Pearl Harbor.

 
Kimmel can maybe be forgiven for being surprised on December 7th.

Why MacArthur wasn't relieved/charged for being surprised in the Philippines is a total mystery. We'd already been attacked and he keeps his planes on the ground.

 
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