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Active shooter at Washington Navy Yard (1 Viewer)

Want to know how to prevent it? Arm everyone. Open carry for all people and in all places.
This (although I'd argue for universal concealed carry) and remove gun free zones, it is the simple solution but people like Tim, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Tobias will always look for more extravagant solutions that will magically prevent mentally ill people from attempting to kill as many people as possible. They don't trust someone that has undergone training to obtain a concealed weapon license, they think these people cannot be trusted with a gun. They would rather wait for police to arrive which particularly in the case of these mass killings is nearly always too late.

Even if there was a magic test to determine if someone was mentally ill or not, what's to stop someone from purchasing a cache of weapons and then snap months or a year later and carry out these evil plans?
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my objection to your solution is that, historically, whenever more of the public is armed, there tends to be more violence, not less. I really don't think anyone could reasonably argue that people would feel safer in the Wild West, which seems to be the type of society you are advocating for, rather than a more civilized time.

That being said, the forced imposition of gun free zones may not make practical sense either, as it doesn't seem to make those areas necessarily safer.

 
If everyone is armed, anyone who pulls out their gun and start shooting is not going to last long. Thirteen people would not have died yesterday if Clinton hadn't taken away the ability of soldiers to carry a personal sidearm on military bases. Everyone in Switzerland is armed. Why is their per capita violent crime rate so much lower than in the USA?
And how many more additional deaths by gun violence per year do you think would occur based on the fact that previously non-armed individuals would be openly carrying handguns?

You don't seriously think that gun violence would decrease if every individual in America was strapped, do you?

 
[icon] said:
:lol:

Do we really want to play this game? Kroger Allows carry. There are about 30-40 of those around the city vs 2 BWW.

Businesses that are posted are VERY much in the minority.
I imagine this varies very much from where you live. Here in the Twin Cities, if I had to guess (I have never counted), there is an overwhelming majority of stores/restaurants/bars/etc that post signs regarding not bringing a weapon in.

 
If everyone is armed, anyone who pulls out their gun and start shooting is not going to last long. Thirteen people would not have died yesterday if Clinton hadn't taken away the ability of soldiers to carry a personal sidearm on military bases. Everyone in Switzerland is armed. Why is their per capita violent crime rate so much lower than in the USA?
And how many more additional deaths by gun violence per year do you think would occur based on the fact that previously non-armed individuals would be openly carrying handguns?

You don't seriously think that gun violence would decrease if every individual in America was strapped, do you?
This is the logical extension of the NRA argument.

 
"Arm everyone" doesn't sound like a good idea either.
Maybe not the arm everyone. But the possibility that everyone is armed may be enough deter some.

There are not a lot of reports of gun stores being robbed? Why is that?
Are you saying that robbers know what store owners carry guns and which do not?
I'm saying that the ones with a sign out front that says "Gun Store" are not robbed because the criminal assumes that the employees are armed. Instead he chooses the franchise convenient store down the street that prohibits guns.

 
I'm not sure I've ever seen a thread with more strawmen....ever. My ignoring it after the few first pages was a big mistake :popcorn:

 
Want to know how to prevent it? Arm everyone. Open carry for all people and in all places.
This (although I'd argue for universal concealed carry) and remove gun free zones, it is the simple solution but people like Tim, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Tobias will always look for more extravagant solutions that will magically prevent mentally ill people from attempting to kill as many people as possible. They don't trust someone that has undergone training to obtain a concealed weapon license, they think these people cannot be trusted with a gun. They would rather wait for police to arrive which particularly in the case of these mass killings is nearly always too late.

Even if there was a magic test to determine if someone was mentally ill or not, what's to stop someone from purchasing a cache of weapons and then snap months or a year later and carry out these evil plans?
historically, whenever more of the public is armed, there tends to be more violence, not less.
X

As previously mentioned Switzerland.

Also Kennesaw, GA. In 2007, the city was selected by Family Circle magazine as one of the nation's "10 best towns for families". The city is perhaps best known nationally for its mandatory gun-possession ordinance.

The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) in Switzerland is 45.7 firearms per 100 people

In a comparison of the rate of private gun ownership in 178 countries, Switzerland ranked at No. 3

Intentional homicide ranking by country

#67 Switzerland 2.9 per 100k

Don't make broad generalizations.

 
If everyone is armed, anyone who pulls out their gun and start shooting is not going to last long. Thirteen people would not have died yesterday if Clinton hadn't taken away the ability of soldiers to carry a personal sidearm on military bases. Everyone in Switzerland is armed. Why is their per capita violent crime rate so much lower than in the USA?
And how many more additional deaths by gun violence per year do you think would occur based on the fact that previously non-armed individuals would be openly carrying handguns?

You don't seriously think that gun violence would decrease if every individual in America was strapped, do you?
It's been done before...

http://www.wnd.com/2007/04/41196/

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of “Wild West” showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender....

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.

...

By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city’s crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township’s crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000.
 
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[icon] said:
:lol:

Do we really want to play this game? Kroger Allows carry. There are about 30-40 of those around the city vs 2 BWW.

Businesses that are posted are VERY much in the minority.
I imagine this varies very much from where you live. Here in the Twin Cities, if I had to guess (I have never counted), there is an overwhelming majority of stores/restaurants/bars/etc that post signs regarding not bringing a weapon in.
This is what a Texas sign is required for it to be legal. Bars have a different sign.

includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public

"PURSUANT TO SECTION 30.06, PENAL CODE (TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF A LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN) A PERSON LICENSED UNDER SUBCHAPTER H, CHAPTER 411, GOVERNMENT CODE (CONCEALED HANDGUN LAW), MAY NOT ENTER THIS PROPERTY WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN."

"CONFORME A LA SECCIÓN 30.06 DEL CÔDIGO PENAL (TRASPASAR PORTANDO ARMAS DE FUEGO) PERSONAS CON LICENCIA BAJO DEL SUB-CAPITULO H, CAPITULO 411, CODIGO DE GOBIERNO (LEY DE PORTAR ARMAS), NO DEBEN ENTRAR A ESTA PROPIEDAD PORTANDO UN ARMA DE FUEGO."
Must be specifically as written above or it is not a legal sign.

 
Want to know how to prevent it? Arm everyone. Open carry for all people and in all places.
This (although I'd argue for universal concealed carry) and remove gun free zones, it is the simple solution but people like Tim, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Tobias will always look for more extravagant solutions that will magically prevent mentally ill people from attempting to kill as many people as possible. They don't trust someone that has undergone training to obtain a concealed weapon license, they think these people cannot be trusted with a gun. They would rather wait for police to arrive which particularly in the case of these mass killings is nearly always too late.

Even if there was a magic test to determine if someone was mentally ill or not, what's to stop someone from purchasing a cache of weapons and then snap months or a year later and carry out these evil plans?
historically, whenever more of the public is armed, there tends to be more violence, not less.
X

As previously mentioned Switzerland.

Also Kennesaw, GA. In 2007, the city was selected by Family Circle magazine as one of the nation's "10 best towns for families". The city is perhaps best known nationally for its mandatory gun-possession ordinance.

The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) in Switzerland is 45.7 firearms per 100 people

In a comparison of the rate of private gun ownership in 178 countries, Switzerland ranked at No. 3

Intentional homicide ranking by country

#67 Switzerland 2.9 per 100k

Don't make broad generalizations.
I think I can. Don't know much about Kennesaw, except that it's constantly pushed by NRA types. And I have no idea about Switzerland. But I DO know quite a bit about American history in general, and the nature of our multicultural society. You can't compare us, as a mass culture, to either small towns in Georgia or to countries that are far more culturally heterogeneous. In our society, the more guns, the more violence. That has been the general history and there's no getting around it.

 
Want to know how to prevent it? Arm everyone. Open carry for all people and in all places.
This (although I'd argue for universal concealed carry) and remove gun free zones, it is the simple solution but people like Tim, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Tobias will always look for more extravagant solutions that will magically prevent mentally ill people from attempting to kill as many people as possible. They don't trust someone that has undergone training to obtain a concealed weapon license, they think these people cannot be trusted with a gun. They would rather wait for police to arrive which particularly in the case of these mass killings is nearly always too late.

Even if there was a magic test to determine if someone was mentally ill or not, what's to stop someone from purchasing a cache of weapons and then snap months or a year later and carry out these evil plans?
historically, whenever more of the public is armed, there tends to be more violence, not less.
X

As previously mentioned Switzerland.

Also Kennesaw, GA. In 2007, the city was selected by Family Circle magazine as one of the nation's "10 best towns for families". The city is perhaps best known nationally for its mandatory gun-possession ordinance.

The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) in Switzerland is 45.7 firearms per 100 people

In a comparison of the rate of private gun ownership in 178 countries, Switzerland ranked at No. 3

Intentional homicide ranking by country

#67 Switzerland 2.9 per 100k

Don't make broad generalizations.
I think I can. Don't know much about Kennesaw, except that it's constantly pushed by NRA types. And I have no idea about Switzerland. But I DO know quite a bit about American history in general, and the nature of our multicultural society. You can't compare us, as a mass culture, to either small towns in Georgia or to countries that are far more culturally heterogeneous. In our society, the more guns, the more violence. That has been the general history and there's no getting around it.
Well we are talking about mass shootings and the positive affect this suggested policy would have to curtail the number of deaths, I don't think your knowledge of American history contradicts this. Think about where these mass shootings are occurring, they are not in downtown Detroit or wherever you think more guns = more violence will be most negatively affected. I'm sure you know by now I don't have an ounce of faith in the more guns = more violence mantra that you and others are preaching, so I'm limiting this to the type of environments where these mass shootings are taking place. There's a separate thread already for the broader subject that you may be hinting at.

 
[icon] said:
:lol:

Do we really want to play this game? Kroger Allows carry. There are about 30-40 of those around the city vs 2 BWW.

Businesses that are posted are VERY much in the minority.
I imagine this varies very much from where you live. Here in the Twin Cities, if I had to guess (I have never counted), there is an overwhelming majority of stores/restaurants/bars/etc that post signs regarding not bringing a weapon in.
This is what a Texas sign is required for it to be legal. Bars have a different sign.

includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public

"PURSUANT TO SECTION 30.06, PENAL CODE (TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF A LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN) A PERSON LICENSED UNDER SUBCHAPTER H, CHAPTER 411, GOVERNMENT CODE (CONCEALED HANDGUN LAW), MAY NOT ENTER THIS PROPERTY WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN."

"CONFORME A LA SECCIÓN 30.06 DEL CÔDIGO PENAL (TRASPASAR PORTANDO ARMAS DE FUEGO) PERSONAS CON LICENCIA BAJO DEL SUB-CAPITULO H, CAPITULO 411, CODIGO DE GOBIERNO (LEY DE PORTAR ARMAS), NO DEBEN ENTRAR A ESTA PROPIEDAD PORTANDO UN ARMA DE FUEGO."
Must be specifically as written above or it is not a legal sign.
All you need in Minnesota is an 11x17 sign that says “BANS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES.”

 
People continue to point out the problems with an armed society. I would like to turn the tables and ask if those same people think things would be safer if the government passed laws making gun ownership illegal?

 
It's an interesting statement to say that you must suffer from a phobia if you are afraid of being killed in a mass shooting. What about carrying a gun to protect yourself from other violent crimes? Or protecting your family from violent crimes?
Number of robberies in the US per year: around 400,000

Number of mass shooting deaths in the US per year: dozens
You glossed over the point. I will concede the fact that mass shootings are limited. But, what about the other violent crimes where the outcome would have been different, had the victim been armed?
I'm not anti-gun.

What I'm saying is the odds of being a victim of a mass shooting are so ridiculously small, the risk has negligible applicability to gun law/policy.

A mass shooting does make for great news media ratings though.

 
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Serious question, but do you know how hard this is in most states?
Yes.
As it should be.
Actually, to be quite honest, I don't disagree with you.But then what the hell can we as a society do about these shootings? Are we just helpless?
People always look for "fixes".What can we do about terrorism? It's always going to be there. What can we do to limit the damage?
Well I think there ARE ways to fight terrorism- though you and Slapdash don't especially like my solution on that topic.But here I'm flummoxed. You're quite right; I want to do SOMETHING. But how to do anything substantial that doesn't take too much of our freedoms away?
If you are honestly scared by your odds of being shot in a mass shooting, then you suffer from a phobia.
I'm not afraid of my own odds of being involved in one. I'm simply horrified that they keep happening and that there's seemingly nothing we can do about it.
There are horrors that occur with far greater frequency that we can do something about, but choose not to.

 
If everyone is armed, anyone who pulls out their gun and start shooting is not going to last long. Thirteen people would not have died yesterday if Clinton hadn't taken away the ability of soldiers to carry a personal sidearm on military bases. Everyone in Switzerland is armed. Why is their per capita violent crime rate so much lower than in the USA?
Your comparison of the United States to Switzerland is not persuasive at all.

"Everyone in Switzerland is armed." Actually, no. In 2005, 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to 43% in the United States. Similarly, in 2007, Switzerland had 45.7 guns per 100 residents, whereas the United States had 94.3 guns per 100 residents. No matter how you measure it, the United States already has far higher rates of gun ownership than Switzerland. Thus, you cannot say that Switzerland's low violent crime rate is somehow the result of "everyone being armed" -- it's simply not true and the United States already far surpasses Switzerland in gun ownership rates. Rather than supporting your argument, the comparison of the United States and Switzerland only supports the conclusion that higher gun ownership rates is associated with higher levels of gun violence.

Furthermore, in direct contrast to your "high gun ownership rates somehow decreases gun violence" argument, a study released this week from Boston University concluded that there was a "robust correlation" between rates of gun ownership by state and gun homicides at the state level, even when controlling for factors typically associated with homicide. The study examined gun violence statistics for all 50 states over the past 30 years and found that, for each 1 percentage point increase in gun ownership, the state firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9 percent. Thus, statistics of gun violence in the United States over the past 30 years directly contradict your argument.

http://www.bu.edu/news/2013/09/13/new-research-shows-link-between-rates-of-gun-ownership-and-homicides/

 
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If everyone is armed, anyone who pulls out their gun and start shooting is not going to last long. Thirteen people would not have died yesterday if Clinton hadn't taken away the ability of soldiers to carry a personal sidearm on military bases. Everyone in Switzerland is armed. Why is their per capita violent crime rate so much lower than in the USA?
Your comparison of the United States to Switzerland is not persuasive at all.

"Everyone in Switzerland is armed." Actually, no. In 2005, 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to 43% in the United States. Similarly, in 2007, Switzerland had 45.7 guns per 100 residents, whereas the United States had 94.3 guns per 100 residents. No matter how you measure it, the United States already has far higher rates of gun ownership than Switzerland. Thus, you cannot say that Switzerland's low violent crime rate is somehow the result of "everyone being armed" -- it's simply not true and the United States already far surpasses Switzerland in gun ownership rates. Rather than supporting your argument, the comparison of the United States and Switzerland only supports the conclusion that higher gun ownership rates is associated with higher levels of gun violence.

Furthermore, in direct contrast to your "high gun ownership rates somehow decreases gun violence" argument, a study released this week from Boston University concluded that there was a "robust correlation" between rates of gun ownership by state and gun homicides at the state level, even when controlling for factors typically associated with homicide. The study examined gun violence statistics for all 50 states over the past 30 years and found that, for each 1 percentage point increase in gun ownership, the state firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9 percent. Thus, statistics of gun violence in the United States over the past 30 years directly contradict your argument.

http://www.bu.edu/news/2013/09/13/new-research-shows-link-between-rates-of-gun-ownership-and-homicides/
This study has the same blind spot as a number of others, it only looks at homicides by firearms. If restrictions on firearms lead to fewer murders by firearm, but more total murders, that is not an improvement.

 
If everyone is armed, anyone who pulls out their gun and start shooting is not going to last long. Thirteen people would not have died yesterday if Clinton hadn't taken away the ability of soldiers to carry a personal sidearm on military bases. Everyone in Switzerland is armed. Why is their per capita violent crime rate so much lower than in the USA?
Your comparison of the United States to Switzerland is not persuasive at all.

"Everyone in Switzerland is armed." Actually, no. In 2005, 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to 43% in the United States. Similarly, in 2007, Switzerland had 45.7 guns per 100 residents, whereas the United States had 94.3 guns per 100 residents. No matter how you measure it, the United States already has far higher rates of gun ownership than Switzerland. Thus, you cannot say that Switzerland's low violent crime rate is somehow the result of "everyone being armed" -- it's simply not true and the United States already far surpasses Switzerland in gun ownership rates. Rather than supporting your argument, the comparison of the United States and Switzerland only supports the conclusion that higher gun ownership rates is associated with higher levels of gun violence.

Furthermore, in direct contrast to your "high gun ownership rates somehow decreases gun violence" argument, a study released this week from Boston University concluded that there was a "robust correlation" between rates of gun ownership by state and gun homicides at the state level, even when controlling for factors typically associated with homicide. The study examined gun violence statistics for all 50 states over the past 30 years and found that, for each 1 percentage point increase in gun ownership, the state firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9 percent. Thus, statistics of gun violence in the United States over the past 30 years directly contradict your argument.

http://www.bu.edu/news/2013/09/13/new-research-shows-link-between-rates-of-gun-ownership-and-homicides/
This study has the same blind spot as a number of others, it only looks at homicides by firearms. If restrictions on firearms lead to fewer murders by firearm, but more total murders, that is not an improvement.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that suggests this would happen in real life?

That, following the implementation of gun control measures, firearm homicides would simply be replaced by homicides by stabbing/ninja stars/ricin/etc.?

 
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It's an interesting statement to say that you must suffer from a phobia if you are afraid of being killed in a mass shooting. What about carrying a gun to protect yourself from other violent crimes? Or protecting your family from violent crimes?
Number of robberies in the US per year: around 400,000

Number of mass shooting deaths in the US per year: dozens
You glossed over the point. I will concede the fact that mass shootings are limited. But, what about the other violent crimes where the outcome would have been different, had the victim been armed?
I'm not anti-gun.

What I'm saying is the odds of being a victim of a mass shooting are so ridiculously small, the risk has negligible applicability to gun law/policy.

A mass shooting does make for great news media ratings though.
Uh, yeah. I agreed with you on that point. But, you continue to ignore my point about the other crimes.

What if one armed civilian shot a mass killer? Would you guys then point out that it only works in 1 out of 10 mass shootings?

 
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If everyone is armed, anyone who pulls out their gun and start shooting is not going to last long. Thirteen people would not have died yesterday if Clinton hadn't taken away the ability of soldiers to carry a personal sidearm on military bases. Everyone in Switzerland is armed. Why is their per capita violent crime rate so much lower than in the USA?
Your comparison of the United States to Switzerland is not persuasive at all.

"Everyone in Switzerland is armed." Actually, no. In 2005, 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to 43% in the United States. Similarly, in 2007, Switzerland had 45.7 guns per 100 residents, whereas the United States had 94.3 guns per 100 residents. No matter how you measure it, the United States already has far higher rates of gun ownership than Switzerland. Thus, you cannot say that Switzerland's low violent crime rate is somehow the result of "everyone being armed" -- it's simply not true and the United States already far surpasses Switzerland in gun ownership rates. Rather than supporting your argument, the comparison of the United States and Switzerland only supports the conclusion that higher gun ownership rates is associated with higher levels of gun violence.

Furthermore, in direct contrast to your "high gun ownership rates somehow decreases gun violence" argument, a study released this week from Boston University concluded that there was a "robust correlation" between rates of gun ownership by state and gun homicides at the state level, even when controlling for factors typically associated with homicide. The study examined gun violence statistics for all 50 states over the past 30 years and found that, for each 1 percentage point increase in gun ownership, the state firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9 percent. Thus, statistics of gun violence in the United States over the past 30 years directly contradict your argument.

http://www.bu.edu/news/2013/09/13/new-research-shows-link-between-rates-of-gun-ownership-and-homicides/
This study has the same blind spot as a number of others, it only looks at homicides by firearms. If restrictions on firearms lead to fewer murders by firearm, but more total murders, that is not an improvement.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that suggests this would happen in real life?

That, following the implementation of gun control measures, firearm homicides would simply be replaced by homicides by stabbing/ninja stars/ricin/etc.?
There's plenty of examples of it, why do you think it was omitted from the study you linked?

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

 
It's an interesting statement to say that you must suffer from a phobia if you are afraid of being killed in a mass shooting. What about carrying a gun to protect yourself from other violent crimes? Or protecting your family from violent crimes?
Number of robberies in the US per year: around 400,000

Number of mass shooting deaths in the US per year: dozens
You glossed over the point. I will concede the fact that mass shootings are limited. But, what about the other violent crimes where the outcome would have been different, had the victim been armed?
I'm not anti-gun.

What I'm saying is the odds of being a victim of a mass shooting are so ridiculously small, the risk has negligible applicability to gun law/policy.

A mass shooting does make for great news media ratings though.
Uh, yeah. I agreed with you on that point. But, you continue to ignore my point about the other crimes.

What if one armed civilian shot a mass killer? Would you guys then point out that it only works in 1 out of 10 mass shootings?
A mass shooting is such a rare occurance, discussing the effects of an armed civilian shooting the mass shooter is as well negligibly applicable to gun/policy.

 
It's an interesting statement to say that you must suffer from a phobia if you are afraid of being killed in a mass shooting. What about carrying a gun to protect yourself from other violent crimes? Or protecting your family from violent crimes?
Number of robberies in the US per year: around 400,000

Number of mass shooting deaths in the US per year: dozens
You glossed over the point. I will concede the fact that mass shootings are limited. But, what about the other violent crimes where the outcome would have been different, had the victim been armed?
I'm not anti-gun.

What I'm saying is the odds of being a victim of a mass shooting are so ridiculously small, the risk has negligible applicability to gun law/policy.

A mass shooting does make for great news media ratings though.
Uh, yeah. I agreed with you on that point. But, you continue to ignore my point about the other crimes.

What if one armed civilian shot a mass killer? Would you guys then point out that it only works in 1 out of 10 mass shootings?
A mass shooting is such a rare occurance, discussing the effects of an armed civilian shooting the mass shooter is as well negligibly applicable to gun/policy.
Good talk, Rusty.

 
If everyone is armed, anyone who pulls out their gun and start shooting is not going to last long. Thirteen people would not have died yesterday if Clinton hadn't taken away the ability of soldiers to carry a personal sidearm on military bases. Everyone in Switzerland is armed. Why is their per capita violent crime rate so much lower than in the USA?
Your comparison of the United States to Switzerland is not persuasive at all.

"Everyone in Switzerland is armed." Actually, no. In 2005, 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to 43% in the United States. Similarly, in 2007, Switzerland had 45.7 guns per 100 residents, whereas the United States had 94.3 guns per 100 residents. No matter how you measure it, the United States already has far higher rates of gun ownership than Switzerland. Thus, you cannot say that Switzerland's low violent crime rate is somehow the result of "everyone being armed" -- it's simply not true and the United States already far surpasses Switzerland in gun ownership rates. Rather than supporting your argument, the comparison of the United States and Switzerland only supports the conclusion that higher gun ownership rates is associated with higher levels of gun violence.

Furthermore, in direct contrast to your "high gun ownership rates somehow decreases gun violence" argument, a study released this week from Boston University concluded that there was a "robust correlation" between rates of gun ownership by state and gun homicides at the state level, even when controlling for factors typically associated with homicide. The study examined gun violence statistics for all 50 states over the past 30 years and found that, for each 1 percentage point increase in gun ownership, the state firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9 percent. Thus, statistics of gun violence in the United States over the past 30 years directly contradict your argument.

http://www.bu.edu/news/2013/09/13/new-research-shows-link-between-rates-of-gun-ownership-and-homicides/
This study has the same blind spot as a number of others, it only looks at homicides by firearms. If restrictions on firearms lead to fewer murders by firearm, but more total murders, that is not an improvement.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that suggests this would happen in real life?

That, following the implementation of gun control measures, firearm homicides would simply be replaced by homicides by stabbing/ninja stars/ricin/etc.?
There's plenty of examples of it, why do you think it was omitted from the study you linked?http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/
Just to be clear, my position is not that overall homicide rates are somehow determined by gun ownership rates. The issue of overall homicide rates is obviously a much more complex issue that is influenced by numerous different factors including poverty rates, gang activity/organized crime, cultural norms, etc.The point I was making was that there appears to be no empirical support for Tchula's assertion that higher gun ownership rates will somehow decrease gun violence in America.

 
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This discussion of mandatory gun ownership terrifies me. I don't want a gun. I have no need for a gun. I genuinely feel that the chances of me hurting myself or a family member accidentally with a gun far outweigh any potential benefit from me owning one. I know there are plenty of law-abiding gun owners out there and that's cool and more power to you, but I don't want a gun anywhere near my home.

 
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If everyone is armed, anyone who pulls out their gun and start shooting is not going to last long. Thirteen people would not have died yesterday if Clinton hadn't taken away the ability of soldiers to carry a personal sidearm on military bases. Everyone in Switzerland is armed. Why is their per capita violent crime rate so much lower than in the USA?
Your comparison of the United States to Switzerland is not persuasive at all.

"Everyone in Switzerland is armed." Actually, no. In 2005, 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to 43% in the United States. Similarly, in 2007, Switzerland had 45.7 guns per 100 residents, whereas the United States had 94.3 guns per 100 residents. No matter how you measure it, the United States already has far higher rates of gun ownership than Switzerland. Thus, you cannot say that Switzerland's low violent crime rate is somehow the result of "everyone being armed" -- it's simply not true and the United States already far surpasses Switzerland in gun ownership rates. Rather than supporting your argument, the comparison of the United States and Switzerland only supports the conclusion that higher gun ownership rates is associated with higher levels of gun violence.

Furthermore, in direct contrast to your "high gun ownership rates somehow decreases gun violence" argument, a study released this week from Boston University concluded that there was a "robust correlation" between rates of gun ownership by state and gun homicides at the state level, even when controlling for factors typically associated with homicide. The study examined gun violence statistics for all 50 states over the past 30 years and found that, for each 1 percentage point increase in gun ownership, the state firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9 percent. Thus, statistics of gun violence in the United States over the past 30 years directly contradict your argument.

http://www.bu.edu/news/2013/09/13/new-research-shows-link-between-rates-of-gun-ownership-and-homicides/
This study has the same blind spot as a number of others, it only looks at homicides by firearms. If restrictions on firearms lead to fewer murders by firearm, but more total murders, that is not an improvement.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that suggests this would happen in real life?

That, following the implementation of gun control measures, firearm homicides would simply be replaced by homicides by stabbing/ninja stars/ricin/etc.?
There's plenty of examples of it, why do you think it was omitted from the study you linked?http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/
Just to be clear, my position is not that overall homicide rates are somehow determined by gun ownership rates. The issue of overall homicide rates is obviously a much more complex issue that is influenced by numerous different factors including socioeconomic status, gang activity, cultural norms, etc.

The point I was making was that there appears to be no empirical support for Tchula's assertion that higher gun ownership rates will somehow decrease gun violence in America.
I think you are formatting your conclusion not Tchula, he does cite Switzerland's per capita violent crime rate, you are the one focused solely on the "gun aspect" of the crime.

From the study I linked above, last paragraph in particular:

In this connection, two recent studies are pertinent. In 2004,

the U.S. National Academy of Sciences released its evaluation

from a review of 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government

publications, and some original empirical research. It failed to

identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, sui-

cide, or gun accidents.15 The same conclusion was reached in

2003 by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control’s review of then-

extant studies.16

Stringent gun controls were not adopted in England and

Western Europe until after World War I. Consistent with the

outcomes of the recent American studies just mentioned, these

strict controls did not stem the general trend of ever-growing

violent crime throughout the post-WWII industrialized world

including the United States and Russia. Professor Malcolm’s

study of English gun law and violent crime summarizes that

nation’s nineteenth and twentieth century experience as fol-

lows:

The peacefulness England used to enjoy was not the result of

strict gun laws. When it had no firearms restrictions [nine-

teenth and early twentieth century] England had little vio-

lent crime, while the present extraordinarily stringent gun

controls have not stopped the increase in violence or even

the increase in armed violence.17

Armed crime, never a problem in England, has now be-

come one. Handguns are banned but the Kingdom has mil-

lions of illegal firearms. Criminals have no trouble finding

them and exhibit a new willingness to use them. In the dec-

ade after 1957, the use of guns in serious crime increased a

hundredfold.18
In the late 1990s, England moved from stringent controls to a

complete ban of all handguns and many types of long guns.

Hundreds of thousands of guns were confiscated from those

owners law-abiding enough to turn them in to authorities.

Without suggesting this caused violence, the ban’s ineffective-

ness was such that by the year 2000 violent crime had so in-

creased that England and Wales had Europe’s highest violent

crime rate, far surpassing even the United States.19 Today, Eng-

lish news media headline violence in terms redolent of the

doleful, melodramatic language that for so long characterized

American news reports.20 One aspect of England’s recent ex-

perience deserves note, given how often and favorably advo-

cates have compared English gun policy to its American coun-

terpart over the past 35 years.21 A generally unstated issue in

this notoriously emotional debate was the effect of the Warren

Court and later restrictions on police powers on American gun

policy. Critics of these decisions pointed to soaring American

crime rates and argued simplistically that such decisions

caused, or at least hampered, police in suppressing crime. But

to some supporters of these judicial decisions, the example of

England argued that the solution to crime was to restrict guns,

not civil liberties. To gun control advocates, England, the cradle

of our liberties, was a nation made so peaceful by strict gun

control that its police did not even need to carry guns. The

United States, it was argued, could attain such a desirable

situation by radically reducing gun ownership, preferably by

banning and confiscating handguns.

The results discussed earlier contradict those expectations. On

the one hand, despite constant and substantially increasing gun

ownership, the United States saw progressive and dramatic re-

ductions in criminal violence in the 1990s. On the other hand, the

same time period in the United Kingdom saw a constant and

dramatic increase in violent crime to which England’s response

was ever-more drastic gun control including, eventually, banning

and confiscating all handguns and many types of long guns.22

Nevertheless, criminal violence rampantly increased so that by

2000 England surpassed the United States to become one of the

developed world’smost violence-riddennations.

To conserve the resources of the inundated criminal justice

system, English police no longer investigate burglary and “mi-

nor assaults.”23 As of 2006, if the police catch a mugger,robber,

or burglar, or other “minor” criminal in the act, the policy is to

release them with a warning ratherthan to arrest and prosecute

them.24 It used to be that English police vehemently opposed

the idea of armed policing. Today, ever more police are being

armed. Justifying the assignment of armed squads to block

roads and carry out random car searches, a police commander

asserts: “It is a massive deterrent to gunmen if they think that

there are going to be armed police.”25 How far is that from the

rationale on which 40 American states have enacted laws giv-

ing qualified, trained citizens the right to carry concealed guns?

Indeed, news media editorials have appeared in England argu-

ing that civilians should be allowed guns for defense.26 There is

currently a vigorous controversy over proposals (which the

Blair government first endorsed but now opposes) to amend

the law of self-defense to protect victims from prosecution for

using deadly force against burglars.27

The divergence between the United States and the British

Commonwealth became especially pronounced during the

1980s and 1990s. During these two decades, while Britain and

the Commonwealth were making lawful firearm ownership

increasingly difficult, more than 25 states in the United States

passed laws allowing responsible citizens to carry concealed

handguns. There are now 40 states where qualified citizens can

obtain such a handgun permit.28 As a result, the number of U.S.

citizens allowed to carry concealed handguns in shopping

malls, on the street, and in their cars has grown to 3.5 million

men and women.29 Economists John Lott and David Mustard

have suggested that these new laws contributed to the drop in

homicide and violent crime rates. Based on 25 years of corre-

lated statistics from all of the more than 3,000 American coun-

ties, Lott and Mustard conclude that adoption of these statutes

has deterred criminals from confrontation crime and caused

murder and violent crime to fall faster in states that adopted

this policy than in states that did not.30
 
It's an interesting statement to say that you must suffer from a phobia if you are afraid of being killed in a mass shooting. What about carrying a gun to protect yourself from other violent crimes? Or protecting your family from violent crimes?
Number of robberies in the US per year: around 400,000

Number of mass shooting deaths in the US per year: dozens
You glossed over the point. I will concede the fact that mass shootings are limited. But, what about the other violent crimes where the outcome would have been different, had the victim been armed?
I'm not anti-gun.

What I'm saying is the odds of being a victim of a mass shooting are so ridiculously small, the risk has negligible applicability to gun law/policy.

A mass shooting does make for great news media ratings though.
Uh, yeah. I agreed with you on that point. But, you continue to ignore my point about the other crimes.

What if one armed civilian shot a mass killer? Would you guys then point out that it only works in 1 out of 10 mass shootings?
A mass shooting is such a rare occurance, discussing the effects of an armed civilian shooting the mass shooter is as well negligibly applicable to gun/policy.
Good talk, Rusty.
The fear of being shot in a mass shooting is a clearly a phobia. It is a fear that is obviously disproportional to the actual danger posed. It is irrational. Dozens of people in this country will likely be shot in a mass shooting in the next 12 months, according to the odds.

The fear of being robbed is not a phobia. It is a fear that is proportionate to the actual danger posed. It is rational. 400,000 people in this country will likely be robbed in the next 12 months, according to the odds.

Rational fears have applicability to gun law/policy.

Irrational fears have no applicability to gun law/policy.

 
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This discussion of mandatory gun ownership terrifies me. I don't want a gun. I have no need for a gun. I genuinely feel that the chances of me hurting myself or a family member accidentally with a gun far outweigh any potential benefit from me owning one. I know there are plenty of law-abiding gun owners out there and that's cool and more power to you, but I don't want a gun anywhere near my home.
I don't want you to own a gun if you feel uncomfortable. But, I also don't want someone telling me I can't own a gun. Or tell me that I can't carry a concealed weapon in a public place.

If a store denies me the right to carry a gun on their property and a mass shooting occurs, would this open them up to a lawsuit?

 
If everyone is armed, anyone who pulls out their gun and start shooting is not going to last long. Thirteen people would not have died yesterday if Clinton hadn't taken away the ability of soldiers to carry a personal sidearm on military bases. Everyone in Switzerland is armed. Why is their per capita violent crime rate so much lower than in the USA?
Your comparison of the United States to Switzerland is not persuasive at all.

"Everyone in Switzerland is armed." Actually, no. In 2005, 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to 43% in the United States. Similarly, in 2007, Switzerland had 45.7 guns per 100 residents, whereas the United States had 94.3 guns per 100 residents. No matter how you measure it, the United States already has far higher rates of gun ownership than Switzerland. Thus, you cannot say that Switzerland's low violent crime rate is somehow the result of "everyone being armed" -- it's simply not true and the United States already far surpasses Switzerland in gun ownership rates. Rather than supporting your argument, the comparison of the United States and Switzerland only supports the conclusion that higher gun ownership rates is associated with higher levels of gun violence.

Furthermore, in direct contrast to your "high gun ownership rates somehow decreases gun violence" argument, a study released this week from Boston University concluded that there was a "robust correlation" between rates of gun ownership by state and gun homicides at the state level, even when controlling for factors typically associated with homicide. The study examined gun violence statistics for all 50 states over the past 30 years and found that, for each 1 percentage point increase in gun ownership, the state firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9 percent. Thus, statistics of gun violence in the United States over the past 30 years directly contradict your argument.

http://www.bu.edu/news/2013/09/13/new-research-shows-link-between-rates-of-gun-ownership-and-homicides/
This study has the same blind spot as a number of others, it only looks at homicides by firearms. If restrictions on firearms lead to fewer murders by firearm, but more total murders, that is not an improvement.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that suggests this would happen in real life?

That, following the implementation of gun control measures, firearm homicides would simply be replaced by homicides by stabbing/ninja stars/ricin/etc.?
There's plenty of examples of it, why do you think it was omitted from the study you linked?http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/
Just to be clear, my position is not that overall homicide rates are somehow determined by gun ownership rates. The issue of overall homicide rates is obviously a much more complex issue that is influenced by numerous different factors including socioeconomic status, gang activity, cultural norms, etc.The point I was making was that there appears to be no empirical support for Tchula's assertion that higher gun ownership rates will somehow decrease gun violence in America.
I think you are formatting your conclusion not Tchula, he does cite Switzerland's per capita violent crime rate, you are the one focused solely on the "gun aspect" of the crime.From the study I linked above, last paragraph in particular:

In this connection, two recent studies are pertinent. In 2004,

the U.S. National Academy of Sciences released its evaluation

from a review of 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government

publications, and some original empirical research. It failed to

identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, sui-

cide, or gun accidents.15 The same conclusion was reached in

2003 by the U.S. Centers for Disease Controls review of then-

extant studies.16

Stringent gun controls were not adopted in England and

Western Europe until after World War I. Consistent with the

outcomes of the recent American studies just mentioned, these

strict controls did not stem the general trend of ever-growing

violent crime throughout the post-WWII industrialized world

including the United States and Russia. Professor Malcolms

study of English gun law and violent crime summarizes that

nations nineteenth and twentieth century experience as fol-

lows:

The peacefulness England used to enjoy was not the result of

strict gun laws. When it had no firearms restrictions [nine-

teenth and early twentieth century] England had little vio-

lent crime, while the present extraordinarily stringent gun

controls have not stopped the increase in violence or even

the increase in armed violence.17

Armed crime, never a problem in England, has now be-

come one. Handguns are banned but the Kingdom has mil-

lions of illegal firearms. Criminals have no trouble finding

them and exhibit a new willingness to use them. In the dec-

ade after 1957, the use of guns in serious crime increased a

hundredfold.18
In the late 1990s, England moved from stringent controls to acomplete ban of all handguns and many types of long guns.

Hundreds of thousands of guns were confiscated from those

owners law-abiding enough to turn them in to authorities.

Without suggesting this caused violence, the bans ineffective-

ness was such that by the year 2000 violent crime had so in-

creased that England and Wales had Europes highest violent

crime rate, far surpassing even the United States.19 Today, Eng-

lish news media headline violence in terms redolent of the

doleful, melodramatic language that for so long characterized

American news reports.20 One aspect of Englands recent ex-

perience deserves note, given how often and favorably advo-

cates have compared English gun policy to its American coun-

terpart over the past 35 years.21 A generally unstated issue in

this notoriously emotional debate was the effect of the Warren

Court and later restrictions on police powers on American gun

policy. Critics of these decisions pointed to soaring American

crime rates and argued simplistically that such decisions

caused, or at least hampered, police in suppressing crime. But

to some supporters of these judicial decisions, the example of

England argued that the solution to crime was to restrict guns,

not civil liberties. To gun control advocates, England, the cradle

of our liberties, was a nation made so peaceful by strict gun

control that its police did not even need to carry guns. The

United States, it was argued, could attain such a desirable

situation by radically reducing gun ownership, preferably by

banning and confiscating handguns.

The results discussed earlier contradict those expectations. On

the one hand, despite constant and substantially increasing gun

ownership, the United States saw progressive and dramatic re-

ductions in criminal violence in the 1990s. On the other hand, the

same time period in the United Kingdom saw a constant and

dramatic increase in violent crime to which Englands response

was ever-more drastic gun control including, eventually, banning

and confiscating all handguns and many types of long guns.22

Nevertheless, criminal violence rampantly increased so that by

2000 England surpassed the United States to become one of the

developed worldsmost violence-riddennations.

To conserve the resources of the inundated criminal justice

system, English police no longer investigate burglary and mi-

nor assaults.23 As of 2006, if the police catch a mugger,robber,

or burglar, or other minor criminal in the act, the policy is to

release them with a warning ratherthan to arrest and prosecute

them.24 It used to be that English police vehemently opposed

the idea of armed policing. Today, ever more police are being

armed. Justifying the assignment of armed squads to block

roads and carry out random car searches, a police commander

asserts: It is a massive deterrent to gunmen if they think that

there are going to be armed police.25 How far is that from the

rationale on which 40 American states have enacted laws giv-

ing qualified, trained citizens the right to carry concealed guns?

Indeed, news media editorials have appeared in England argu-

ing that civilians should be allowed guns for defense.26 There is

currently a vigorous controversy over proposals (which the

Blair government first endorsed but now opposes) to amend

the law of self-defense to protect victims from prosecution for

using deadly force against burglars.27

The divergence between the United States and the British

Commonwealth became especially pronounced during the

1980s and 1990s. During these two decades, while Britain and

the Commonwealth were making lawful firearm ownership

increasingly difficult, more than 25 states in the United States

passed laws allowing responsible citizens to carry concealed

handguns. There are now 40 states where qualified citizens can

obtain such a handgun permit.28 As a result, the number of U.S.

citizens allowed to carry concealed handguns in shopping

malls, on the street, and in their cars has grown to 3.5 million

men and women.29 Economists John Lott and David Mustard

have suggested that these new laws contributed to the drop in

homicide and violent crime rates. Based on 25 years of corre-

lated statistics from all of the more than 3,000 American coun-

ties, Lott and Mustard conclude that adoption of these statutes

has deterred criminals from confrontation crime and caused

murder and violent crime to fall faster in states that adopted

this policy than in states that did not.30

The Lott and Mustard study upon which you rely has been the subject of much academic debate, some of which has called their conclusions into doubt. I certainly haven't studied the issue intently, but some of debate has been summarized in this Fact Check article:

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

I also don't find the comparison of the United States and Great Britain's "violent crime" rates especially compelling. The comparison makes no mention of the fact that the intentional homicide rate in the United States is consistently above 5.0 murders per 100,000 residents whereas the United Kingdom's is consistently below 1.5 murders per 100,000 residents. Even assuming that the violent crime rate is higher in Great Britain than the United States (which is highly questionable due the fact that Great Britain's definition of "violent crime" is far more inclusive than that of the United States'), the lethality of that violent crime is obviously far higher in the United States (with its murder rate that more than three times higher than Great Britain's) due, at least in part, to the higher prevalence of gun ownership in America.

 
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The Lott and Mustard study upon which you rely has been the subject of much academic debate, some of which has called their conclusions into doubt.
I stopped reading once I saw Hemenway's name that is a very anti-gun piece. I'm not going in circles about this, there's already a thread devoted to that. The best it demonstrates is the results are inconclusive, it does not flat out dispute the results.

:bye:

 
It's an interesting statement to say that you must suffer from a phobia if you are afraid of being killed in a mass shooting. What about carrying a gun to protect yourself from other violent crimes? Or protecting your family from violent crimes?
Number of robberies in the US per year: around 400,000

Number of mass shooting deaths in the US per year: dozens
You glossed over the point. I will concede the fact that mass shootings are limited. But, what about the other violent crimes where the outcome would have been different, had the victim been armed?
I'm not anti-gun.

What I'm saying is the odds of being a victim of a mass shooting are so ridiculously small, the risk has negligible applicability to gun law/policy.

A mass shooting does make for great news media ratings though.
Uh, yeah. I agreed with you on that point. But, you continue to ignore my point about the other crimes. What if one armed civilian shot a mass killer? Would you guys then point out that it only works in 1 out of 10 mass shootings?
A mass shooting is such a rare occurance, discussing the effects of an armed civilian shooting the mass shooter is as well negligibly applicable to gun/policy.
Good talk, Rusty.
The fear of being shot in a mass shooting is a clearly a phobia. It is a fear that is obviously disproportional to the actual danger posed. It is irrational. Dozens of people in this country will likely be shot in a mass shooting in the next 12 months, according to the odds.

The fear of being robbed is not a phobia. It is a fear that is proportionate to the actual danger posed. It is rational. 400,000 people in this country will likely be robbed in the next 12 months, according to the odds.

Rational fears have applicability to gun law/policy.

Irrational fears have no applicability to gun law/policy.
If only this were true. I have never encountered a collective group of people more paranoid, more terrified of a phantom government dictatorship, than gun owners. The rejection by Congress of all attempts to have the most mild of universal background checks was a direct result of this paranoia.
 
Want to know how to prevent it? Arm everyone. Open carry for all people and in all places.
This (although I'd argue for universal concealed carry) and remove gun free zones, it is the simple solution but people like Tim, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Tobias will always look for more extravagant solutions that will magically prevent mentally ill people from attempting to kill as many people as possible. They don't trust someone that has undergone training to obtain a concealed weapon license, they think these people cannot be trusted with a gun. They would rather wait for police to arrive which particularly in the case of these mass killings is nearly always too late.

Even if there was a magic test to determine if someone was mentally ill or not, what's to stop someone from purchasing a cache of weapons and then snap months or a year later and carry out these evil plans?
Hey, here's an idea. Why don't you stop putting words in other people's mouths? It's a huge dooshbag move.

TIA.

 
I am not sure why this is a gun debate. Both Fort Hood and this incident there were dozens of red flags which should have been seen if anyone was watching. That is the issue that needs to be adressed, not gun control. Increasing security on base is probably not the real answer either.

 
I am not sure why this is a gun debate. Both Fort Hood and this incident there were dozens of red flags which should have been seen if anyone was watching. That is the issue that needs to be adressed, not gun control. Increasing security on base is probably not the real answer either.
Everything is a red flag in hindsight.

It seems that the assumption is the background check saw these so-called red flags and still cleared him. Which likely means they have cleared many people with similar red flags. And those many people haven't gone on shooting sprees. So, we might actually conclude that they weren't really red flags at all.

(I'm assuming you are talking about shooting out the guy's tires and the bullet through the ceiling.)

 
Navy Yard shooter Aaron Alexis was 'not happy with America,' friend says

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/17/20542864-navy-yard-shooter-aaron-alexis-was-not-happy-with-america-friend-says?lite

He felt like he had been cheated out of money from the contract and complained that he was mistreated because he was black, Kristi Suthamtewkal said.

"He felt a lot of discrimination and and racism with white people especially," she said.

There was also a growing sense of entitlement and disrespect, she said. "He did have the tendency to feel like people owed him something all the time."

He got annoyed when she couldn't give him rides, and he started eating the couple's food without permission, and ignoring her when she complained, she said. When her cats developed fleas, he was angry.

Mostly, though, she felt like he was fed up with the United States.
I wonder if those around him were walking on PC eggshells instead of knocking that chip off his shoulders?

 
I am not sure why this is a gun debate. Both Fort Hood and this incident there were dozens of red flags which should have been seen if anyone was watching. That is the issue that needs to be adressed, not gun control. Increasing security on base is probably not the real answer either.
Everything is a red flag in hindsight.

It seems that the assumption is the background check saw these so-called red flags and still cleared him. Which likely means they have cleared many people with similar red flags. And those many people haven't gone on shooting sprees. So, we might actually conclude that they weren't really red flags at all.

(I'm assuming you are talking about shooting out the guy's tires and the bullet through the ceiling.)
Plus the discharge from the Navy and possible concerns about his recent visits for mental health issues. Not sure how to handle medical privacy though. The Fort Hood shooter had some glaring red flags which should not have been ignored. Yes it is easier in hindsight, but these are the areas which need to be addressed. Not gun control laws, which is pretty irrellavent on a military base.

 
I am not sure why this is a gun debate. Both Fort Hood and this incident there were dozens of red flags which should have been seen if anyone was watching. That is the issue that needs to be adressed, not gun control. Increasing security on base is probably not the real answer either.
And there were red flags with the VT shooter (he actually was declared a danger to others by a mental health professional), Loughner (making death threats towards Giffords) and Columbine (making and detonating bombs).

Not every incident is going to have warning signs, but it's amazing how many that do and how many could be prevented if law enforcement just did their job.

 
I am not sure why this is a gun debate. Both Fort Hood and this incident there were dozens of red flags which should have been seen if anyone was watching. That is the issue that needs to be adressed, not gun control. Increasing security on base is probably not the real answer either.
Everything is a red flag in hindsight.

It seems that the assumption is the background check saw these so-called red flags and still cleared him. Which likely means they have cleared many people with similar red flags. And those many people haven't gone on shooting sprees. So, we might actually conclude that they weren't really red flags at all.

(I'm assuming you are talking about shooting out the guy's tires and the bullet through the ceiling.)
Plus the discharge from the Navy and possible concerns about his recent visits for mental health issues. Not sure how to handle medical privacy though. The Fort Hood shooter had some glaring red flags which should not have been ignored. Yes it is easier in hindsight, but these are the areas which need to be addressed. Not gun control laws, which is pretty irrellavent on a military base.
IIRC, not too long ago, a change was made in the VA mental health regulations so that treatments are no longer reported. This was done as there was concern that many veterans were avoiding treatment specifically because it would put their clearance in danger.

 
Everything is a red flag in hindsight.


It seems that the assumption is the background check saw these so-called red flags and still cleared him. Which likely means they have cleared many people with similar red flags. And those many people haven't gone on shooting sprees. So, we might actually conclude that they weren't really red flags at all.

(I'm assuming you are talking about shooting out the guy's tires and the bullet through the ceiling.)
There were warning signs other than those previous arrests.

First, there was Alexis' deteriorating mental health which the Navy may have been aware of...

NYTimes: Suspect’s Past Fell Just Short of Raising Alarm

WASHINGTON — A month before a murderous rampage at the Washington Navy Yard, Aaron Alexis called the police in Rhode Island to complain that he had changed hotels three times because he was being pursued by people keeping him awake by sending vibrations through the walls.



When officers came to his hotel room early on Aug. 7, Mr. Alexis told them that a person he had argued with at an airport in Virginia “has sent three people to follow him” and that they were harassing him with a microwave machine, according to a Newport, R.I., police report. Mr. Alexis said he had heard “voices speaking to him through the wall, flooring and ceiling,” the report said.
Mr. Alexis told the police he was a Navy contractor, and then twice that month he sought treatment from the Veterans Affairs Department for psychiatric issues, according to a senior law enforcement official. But it did not raise a red flag that might have prevented him from entering the military base in Washington where, the authorities say, he killed 12 people on Monday.

The episode in Rhode Island adds to a growing list of questions about how Mr. Alexis, who had a history of infractions as a Navy reservist, mental health problems and run-ins with the police over gun violence, gained and kept a security clearance from the Defense Department that gave him access to military bases, including the navy yard, where he was shot to death by the police.
Other than Alexis' arrests there were also past Navy infractions...

LA Times: Aaron Alexis had extensive disciplinary problems, official says

WASHINGTON – Aaron Alexis, the gunman who killed 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard on Monday before being fatally shot by law enforcement officials, had a Navy record that included several unauthorized absences from duty, instances of insubordination and disorderly conduct, one instance of being absent without leave, and several failed inspections, according to a Navy official.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss the current investigation, also said that in addition to his two previously known arrests in 2004 and 2010, Alexis had been arrested in DeKalb County, Ga., in 2008 on a disorderly conduct charge and held for two nights.

None of the disciplinary problems or his arrests, however, prevented Alexis from receiving a security clearance or from purchasing a shotgun recently in northern Virginia.

The Navy gave Alexis an administrative punishment after his 2008 arrest. Officials have not revealed what punishments Alexis received for his other offenses, but sanctions often range from loss of pay to reduction in rank.

Alexis applied in 2011 for an early discharge from the Navy, before his enlistment was up. Because of the spate of disciplinary problems, Navy officials looked at giving him a general discharge, which is given to sailors with conduct problems whose performance otherwise is satisfactory. But after examining his record closely, they opted to give him an honorable discharge in January 2011, the official said.

The additional evidence regarding Alexis’ disciplinary history came as officials also disclosed that he recently had sought treatment at a veterans healthcare facility for mental problems.
 
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I am not sure why this is a gun debate. Both Fort Hood and this incident there were dozens of red flags which should have been seen if anyone was watching. That is the issue that needs to be adressed, not gun control. Increasing security on base is probably not the real answer either.
Everything is a red flag in hindsight.

It seems that the assumption is the background check saw these so-called red flags and still cleared him. Which likely means they have cleared many people with similar red flags. And those many people haven't gone on shooting sprees. So, we might actually conclude that they weren't really red flags at all.

(I'm assuming you are talking about shooting out the guy's tires and the bullet through the ceiling.)
Plus the discharge from the Navy and possible concerns about his recent visits for mental health issues. Not sure how to handle medical privacy though. The Fort Hood shooter had some glaring red flags which should not have been ignored. Yes it is easier in hindsight, but these are the areas which need to be addressed. Not gun control laws, which is pretty irrellavent on a military base.
IIRC, not too long ago, a change was made in the VA mental health regulations so that treatments are no longer reported. This was done as there was concern that many veterans were avoiding treatment specifically because it would put their clearance in danger.
Yes and no. The VA will not report it to anyone, but the information will need to be disclosed by the person during the clearance renewal investigation.

 
I find it interesting how less than 48 hours after the event it is no longer really leading newscasts or on the major websites in any meaningful way. Probably by next Monday all media will have moved on 100%.

 
Revealed: Police warned Navy that gunman was hearing voices just six weeks ago after he called them claiming 'people were sending vibrations to his body via microwave machine'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2424350/Aaron-Alexis-Police-warned-Navy-gunman-hearing-voices-6-weeks-ago.html

A police sergeant warned the Navy that Aaron Alexis was 'hearing voices' through his hotel room wall last month - just six weeks before he went on his murderous rampage, shooting 12 dead.

A police report filed in Newport, Rhode Island reveals that the officer was sent to Alexis' hotel on August 7. Alexis said voices were speaking to him 'through the wall, flooring and ceiling' and thought three people were following him 'and sending vibrations to his body' through a microwave machine.

The sergeant wrote in the police report that Alexis said he was a naval contractor so 'I made contact with on-duty Naval Station Police [officer name redacted].'

The Naval Station Police official told the sergeant 'they would follow up on this subject' and see whether Alexis was indeed a naval base contractor, the report said.

It is uncertain what action, if any, the naval police took after the contact. There was no immediate response from the Navy about this latest revelation involving Alexis.

 
I find it interesting how less than 48 hours after the event it is no longer really leading newscasts or on the major websites in any meaningful way. Probably by next Monday all media will have moved on 100%.
No AR-15, no political agenda.
See? You can make dumb, irrelevant, needlessly antagonizing posts where you hamfistedly use a horrible tragedy to argue your cause without wrongly attributing things to other posters! Great job!

 
According to the FBI, murders nationwide have dropped from 24,000 in 1993 to 14,000 in 2012, despite a larger population now. The murderers are probably cowed by all the pistol-packin' heroes here at FBGs.

 
I find it interesting how less than 48 hours after the event it is no longer really leading newscasts or on the major websites in any meaningful way. Probably by next Monday all media will have moved on 100%.
No AR-15, no political agenda.
See? You can make dumb, irrelevant, needlessly antagonizing posts where you hamfistedly use a horrible tragedy to argue your cause without wrongly attributing things to other posters! Great job!
You are a bitter man, that can't admit if this had not been a gun-free zone the casualties would have been far less, that's if he even decided to follow through. Oh wait I forgot, you have no ####### clue what gun-free zone means. You think if there are guns at the gates and entries to buildings and a handful of MP patrols that carry guns that this means it is NOT a gun-free zone. :rolleyes:

Trolls gonna troll.

 
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According to the FBI, murders nationwide have dropped from 24,000 in 1993 to 14,000 in 2012, despite a larger population now. The murderers are probably cowed by all the pistol-packin' heroes here at FBGs.
Fear of FBG gun-packers comes in at #5 on the list..."Crime fell sharply and unexpectedly in the 1990s. Four factors appear to explain the drop in crime: (1) increased incarceration, (2) more police, (3) the decline of crack, and (4) legalized abortion."

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUnderstandingWhyCrime2004.pdf

 
According to the FBI, murders nationwide have dropped from 24,000 in 1993 to 14,000 in 2012, despite a larger population now. The murderers are probably cowed by all the pistol-packin' heroes here at FBGs.
Fear of FBG gun-packers comes in at #5 on the list..."Crime fell sharply and unexpectedly in the 1990s. Four factors appear to explain the drop in crime: (1) increased incarceration, (2) more police, (3) the decline of crack, and (4) legalized abortion."

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUnderstandingWhyCrime2004.pdf
Looks like they touched on leaded gasoline but did not go into detail:

1 Reyes (2002) offers an additional intriguing explanation for the decline in crime: the reduction in levels of lead in the blood due to the elimination of leaded gasoline and lead-based paints. Because of the highly speculative nature of the Reyes conjecture at the present time, I do not discuss this hypothesis at greater length, although it is clearly an area worthy of continued future research.
more:

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline

 

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