Airlines Amp Up Warnings on 5G Service - 1.19.21 - some US flights suspended over 5G uncertainty (1 Viewer)

[belljr]

So why is the FAA hand wringing about something that isn't a concern anywhere else in the world??

What?  The FAA is asking the cell carriers for certain concessions that was done in other countries. The reason they don't have issues is because those changes were done

 

[Kal El]

Did you have to ride with the luggage?

It was on Spirit Airlines, so no? It was hard to tell.

 

[belljr]

It will get rolled out in a couple more weeks imo

 

[Hawks64]

What?  The FAA is asking the cell carriers for certain concessions that was done in other countries. The reason they don't have issues is because those changes were done

See here zero changes discussed at all in other countries.

Nearly 40 other countries are using C-band spectrum for 5G without any reports of interference to airplanes' radio altimeters. As we wrote previously, the FCC in February 2020 approved mobile carriers' use of C-Band spectrum from 3.7 to 3.98 GHz only after analyzing the aviation industry's interference claims and finding no credible evidence of harm to altimeters, which use spectrum from 4.2 to 4.4 GHz.

To be safe, the FCC required carriers to follow power limits and created a 220 MHz guard band that will remain unused to protect altimeters from any possible interference from 5G transmissions. The FCC decision said the aviation industry's research was unrealistic and that "well-designed equipment should not ordinarily receive any significant interference (let alone harmful interference) given these circumstances."

Over a year after the aviation industry's objections were dismissed by the FCC due to a lack of evidence, unnamed FAA officials tried to revive the debate by leaking their concerns to The Wall Street Journal. The FAA followed that up by issuing a November 2 bulletin that warned of "potential adverse effects on radio altimeters" even though the FAA bulletin acknowledged there have been no "proven reports of harmful interference" in the many countries where this spectrum is already used.

 

[belljr]

See here zero changes discussed at all in other countries.

Sigh.... They didn't change anything in other countries.   The other countries already are doing what the FAA has requested to do here. The FCC is saying it's not needed even though other countries are already doing what is being requested. Some of it can't be done because towers were built too close to major airports to begin with

 

[Hawks64]

Sigh.... They didn't change anything in other countries.   The other countries already are doing what the FAA has requested here. The FCC is saying it's not needed 

Link, because that is not what the article states. And quite frankly Ars Technica is a bit more of a reliable and accurate source than your sigh and statement is.

 

[belljr]

Btw the only 5g that was not deployed was towers within 2 miles of airports

 

[belljr]

Some current altimeters are just fine within 5g. Some were found to need to be need replaced or retro fitted.

And here are some differences in other countries

France has for example

Lower power level, antenna tilt, antenna buffer zones 

 

[belljr]

Link, because that is not what the article states. And quite frankly Ars Technica is a bit more of a reliable and accurate source than your sigh and statement is.

I currently do not have a link for public consumption but this touches on it

Do other countries using 5G share these concerns?

Not to the same degree. That's because the way in which 5G is being rolled out varies from country to country.

In the EU, for example, networks operate at lower frequencies than those which US providers are planning to use - reducing the risk of interference. 5G masts can also operate at lower power.

Nevertheless, some countries have taken further steps to reduce possible risks.

In France, there are so-called "buffer zones" around airports where 5G signals are restricted, while antennas have to be tilted downwards to prevent potential interference.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60042178

 

[Hawks64]

I currently do not have a link for public consumption but this touches on it

Do other countries using 5G share these concerns?

Not to the same degree. That's because the way in which 5G is being rolled out varies from country to country.

In the EU, for example, networks operate at lower frequencies than those which US providers are planning to use - reducing the risk of interference. 5G masts can also operate at lower power.

Nevertheless, some countries have taken further steps to reduce possible risks.

In France, there are so-called "buffer zones" around airports where 5G signals are restricted, while antennas have to be tilted downwards to prevent potential interference.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60042178

Thanks.

ETA - Pretty interesting tidbit at the end of the Ars article.

The carriers also said that radio altimeters already "co-exist near other high-power radio uses in the United States without reports of harmful interference to radio altimeters," including two Navy radars that "operate just below the C-band at power levels that are 10,000 times greater than 5G base stations."

Moreover, "ground and airborne aeronautical mobile telemetry systems operate immediately above radio altimeters at power levels comparable to 5G base stations and—for ground stations—with antennas pointed at aircraft," the carriers said. "In fact, the aviation industry's own Wireless Avionics Intra-Communications (WAIC) systems [are] designed to operate in the very same spectrum as radio altimeters." Those aviation industry systems "would not pass the tests" that the aviation industry used in research that purported to show 5G would interfere with altimeters, the carriers told the FCC.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Btw the only 5g that was not deployed was towers within 2 miles of airports

Probably a dumb question, but can/should we just hold off on deploying 5G within 2 miles of airports to allow the rest of the world to test this? Review the safety data after "n" number of flights? Or are we too unique in our setup that there is no sufficiently similar test population. 

Also assume that by this statement that it is fine to roll out 5G anyplace that isn't within 2 miles of airports? There are some pretty densely populated neighborhoods/towns in a 2 mile radius of the NY area airports for example, so not trying to diminish the impact for those folks.

Looking at both perspectives, there's a decent point in that waiting to genuinely review sufficient data is prudent, but if the arguments for waiting are based on disingenuous premises that would be helpful to know.

 

[Fat Nick]

So how is it that the majority of the rest of the world has had zero issues with this and the American carriers are all over here hand wringing about it?

^^^This.

There are a lot of really defensive people here with regards to this.  The reason many of us feel the airlines are a bit over the top is that we have been told for years that cell phones cause issues with planes...yet nobody has ever proved it to be true.  You can go on and on about how this specific issue is "different," but ultimately, there is a lack of substantiated facts around cell phones and their interactions with aircraft that seems to be overstated in the US.  

 

[massraider]

^^^This.

There are a lot of really defensive people here with regards to this.  The reason many of us feel the airlines are a bit over the top is that we have been told for years that cell phones cause issues with planes...yet nobody has ever proved it to be true.  You can go on and on about how this specific issue is "different," but ultimately, there is a lack of substantiated facts around cell phones and their interactions with aircraft that seems to be overstated in the US.  

The way I always looked at it was, if the cell phone thing was real, we would have heard about how they were looking to improve their systems, or how some idiot pulled the landing gear up with an app on his iPhone, or how they were crackdowns in people's phones. 

Clearly it's not a thing anyone needs to worry about. 

 

[belljr]

Probably a dumb question, but can/should we just hold off on deploying 5G within 2 miles of airports to allow the rest of the world to test this? Review the safety data after "n" number of flights? Or are we too unique in our setup that there is no sufficiently similar test population. 

Also assume that by this statement that it is fine to roll out 5G anyplace that isn't within 2 miles of airports? There are some pretty densely populated neighborhoods/towns in a 2 mile radius of the NY area airports for example, so not trying to diminish the impact for those folks.

Looking at both perspectives, there's a decent point in that waiting to genuinely review sufficient data is prudent, but if the arguments for waiting are based on disingenuous premises that would be helpful to know.

Its somewhere in the middle (as always) - but I was speaking for the US rollout, that was what was delayed, not all of the 5G rollout.   As far as data,  there has and have been test conducted and ongoing

^^^This.

There are a lot of really defensive people here with regards to this.  The reason many of us feel the airlines are a bit over the top is that we have been told for years that cell phones cause issues with planes...yet nobody has ever proved it to be true.  You can go on and on about how this specific issue is "different," but ultimately, there is a lack of substantiated facts around cell phones and their interactions with aircraft that seems to be overstated in the US.  

First off that is an FCC regulation about cell phones and airplanes.  That was reviewed again not too long ago but I dont know why the FCC did not change the regulation.  The FAA has stated it will allow airlines to make the determination.   

I will say this though, look at it this way,  the job of the regulation is to ensure that there are no safety issues.... if there is even the slightest remote possibility of interference isn't it better to be safer than sorry since there are about 3 million people flying daily

 

[massraider]

Very interesting discussion, I've changed my mind 5 times. 

 

[belljr]

Good summary imo 

https://www.faa.gov/5g

 

[Fat Nick]

Its somewhere in the middle (as always) - but I was speaking for the US rollout, that was what was delayed, not all of the 5G rollout.   As far as data,  there has and have been test conducted and ongoing

First off that is an FCC regulation about cell phones and airplanes.  That was reviewed again not too long ago but I dont know why the FCC did not change the regulation.  The FAA has stated it will allow airlines to make the determination.   

I will say this though, look at it this way,  the job of the regulation is to ensure that there are no safety issues.... if there is even the slightest remote possibility of interference isn't it better to be safer than sorry since there are about 3 million people flying daily

I'm not differentiating between the FCC and the airlines - but I understand the differentiation in this case...the underlying point is there's being safe, and there's being OVERLY safe in my eyes.  It's all where you draw that line I guess - to each their own.  None of us want to subject anyone to a crash...I just think this is akin to not going to the beach because you're afraid of a shark attack.  I'd bet there's more risk from just generally flying in inclement weather than by 5g - yet we still fly in inclement weather.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Guess what, the FAA was finally forced to start doing actual tests (something they were refusing to do), and it turns out that at least 78% of altimeters in use have no issues. And the rest simply remain to be tested.

Of course, they still aren’t testing them in the entire bandwidth that is planned or at the transmission levels that are ultimately planned near airports so we’ll likely run into yet another roadblock in 6 months when that rollout is supposed to happen. Because of course it makes way more sense to keep kicking and screaming and claiming the sky will theoretically fall instead of actually doing the testing to actually find out.

 

[grateful zed]

Bump

 

[grateful zed]

FAA lifts airline ground stop as flight delays, cancellations pile up across the country

The FAA's NOTAM system failed early Wednesday morning, resulting in thousands of delayed or canceled flights, according to the FAA's website.

www.google.com