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Same could be said of Cano.Jeter
Not really.Cano is an average fielder at a position where there really weren't any standouts in the AL. He certainly wasn't the finest defensive second basemen, but you could argue that he was the finest second basemen who wasn't an offensive liability, which has seemed to be part of the Gold Glove criteria in recent years. And there's no obvious other candidate. In a perfect world, Cano is not the Gold Glove winner, but the choice of Cano doesn't make "Gold Glover" the punchline of a joke from here on out.Jeter, on the other hand, is so bad that all but the most unreasonable Yankees fan envisions him having to move off SS very very soon. He has just terrible range at a key defensive position. And there's Alexei Ramirez out there, a phenomenal fielder and everyday starter with not bad offensive numbers for a decent team.Same could be said of Cano.Jeter
Jules,Hi
Jeter fields everything hit right at him..I guess.Jeter
I love Jete but that is embarrassing.Jeter
meh. He was pretty damn good this year. And he has the best arm of any 2B in baseball which helps with balls hit to his right and in turning the double play. Dont know if hes the best but he certainly deserved consideration.Same could be said of Cano.Jeter
Vladimir Guerrero has one of the best arm of all RF'ers.Cano had a -6 UZR. His TZ FRAA (total runs, fielding runs above average) was 0. He was 5th (I believe) in +/-.You may not like any of those stats. And individually they may all suck. But there is a pretty good chance that if they all say that a player is a mediocre defender, he probably is a mediocre defender.
No he's not.TobiasFunke said:
Below average?
Hi, I'm the moops.... I haven't seen any Yankee games since '08. Pleased to meet ya.
His UZR/150 in 2010 was -0.9. That's pretty close to average in my book. He grades out slightly above average on the old school stats like errors and fielding percentage and below average on range. As I said, not a great choice at all, but certainly not as egregious as Jeter.
Are you suggesting that you have watched enough baseball to judge Cano's performance relative to every other American League second basemen? And also that your eyeball test of his ability vs. other second basemen is better than any of the metrics available? Because the advanced fielding metrics seem to suggest that Cano was decidedly average in 2010 and has been consistently below average for most of his career.
Serious question: The stat nerds who develop these metrics; do they actually WATCH baseball or are they merely slaves to box scores and fielding percentages? Because anyone who has watched Robbie play 2B more than 8-10 times this past year knows it is laughable to consider him "below average." He gets to balls in the hole that most other 2nd basemen could only dream about getting near.And this isn't just a homer opinion. It's a joke Jeter got another GG. He has as much range as Paulie Shore.
In UZR, there is no difference to your range score on a particular ball whether you get to it but can't make the play vs. whether you never come within ten feet of it. It is purely a function of where and how the ball is hit, whether an out was recorded and what the chances are that an average player could have gotten to the ball.
I should add that your example is a fundamental problem with basing defensive performance on fielding percentage and errors. UZR corrects this issue, thus why it is a better measure. Not perfect, but better.
You're delusional. For one, I'm going to guess that the stat nerds who are willing to devote their lives to developing new metrics that most baseball fans are either unaware exist or decry as overly complicated and inaccurate watch a great deal of baseball. Probably too much baseball.In addition, I'll grant you that you probably watched a lot of Cano. But did you watch a lot of any other second baseman, or just the handful of games at best you could see of guys playing against the Yankees? How can you possibly apply a relative analysis when you've only watched one player enough to understand their abilities and performance?Finally, the 'I know what I saw' argument when presented with data that disagrees with your perspective is one of the clearest signs of homerism and the inability to consider that you just might be wrong.Good luck with that.Serious question: The stat nerds who develop these metrics; do they actually WATCH baseball or are they merely slaves to box scores and fielding percentages? Because anyone who has watched Robbie play 2B more than 8-10 times this past year knows it is laughable to consider him "below average." He gets to balls in the hole that most other 2nd basemen could only dream about getting near.And this isn't just a homer opinion. It's a joke Jeter got another GG. He has as much range as Paulie Shore.
I now UZR folks look at every single play hit to every player's zone of every single game.So, suffice to say, they see a #### load more of baseball plays each year than you have seen in your lifetime.
More or less. The sample size is considered too small in a single season, making the data noisy. If possible, a player should be considered over several seasons if you're trying to judge his overall ability.
Pretty sure every one of these metrics require multiple years of data to get an accurate reading.
Thanks.
This is the second time you've brought this up, so I'll address it even though I hate to because it comes across as bragging whenever I do. I have ten TVs set up in the man cave fed by 9 Directv receivers and one cable feed. I initally did this several years ago mainly to watch every NFL game, but I also buy the MLB extra innings package. So to answer your question, yes. I watch every other 2nd baseman in the league, and I watch them EVERY night. There is not one 2nd baseman I'd rather have when you factor in offense and defense, and speaking strictly defensively, Cano doesn't need to take a back seat to many of them.You're delusional. For one, I'm going to guess that the stat nerds who are willing to devote their lives to developing new metrics that most baseball fans are either unaware exist or decry as overly complicated and inaccurate watch a great deal of baseball. Probably too much baseball.In addition, I'll grant you that you probably watched a lot of Cano. But did you watch a lot of any other second baseman, or just the handful of games at best you could see of guys playing against the Yankees? How can you possibly apply a relative analysis when you've only watched one player enough to understand their abilities and performance?Serious question: The stat nerds who develop these metrics; do they actually WATCH baseball or are they merely slaves to box scores and fielding percentages? Because anyone who has watched Robbie play 2B more than 8-10 times this past year knows it is laughable to consider him "below average." He gets to balls in the hole that most other 2nd basemen could only dream about getting near.And this isn't just a homer opinion. It's a joke Jeter got another GG. He has as much range as Paulie Shore.
Finally, the 'I know what I saw' argument when presented with data that disagrees with your perspective is one of the clearest signs of homerism and the inability to consider that you just might be wrong.
Good luck with that.
BUT YOU DON'T WATCH ENOUGH!!!!!!!!Raider Nation said:This is the second time you've brought this up, so I'll address it even though I hate to because it comes across as bragging whenever I do. I have ten TVs set up in the man cave fed by 9 Directv receivers and one cable feed. I initally did this several years ago mainly to watch every NFL game, but I also buy the MLB extra innings package. So to answer your question, yes. I watch every other 2nd baseman in the league, and I watch them EVERY night. There is not one 2nd baseman I'd rather have when you factor in offense and defense, and speaking strictly defensively, Cano doesn't need to take a back seat to many of them.igbomb said:You're delusional. For one, I'm going to guess that the stat nerds who are willing to devote their lives to developing new metrics that most baseball fans are either unaware exist or decry as overly complicated and inaccurate watch a great deal of baseball. Probably too much baseball.In addition, I'll grant you that you probably watched a lot of Cano. But did you watch a lot of any other second baseman, or just the handful of games at best you could see of guys playing against the Yankees? How can you possibly apply a relative analysis when you've only watched one player enough to understand their abilities and performance?Raider Nation said:Serious question: The stat nerds who develop these metrics; do they actually WATCH baseball or are they merely slaves to box scores and fielding percentages? Because anyone who has watched Robbie play 2B more than 8-10 times this past year knows it is laughable to consider him "below average." He gets to balls in the hole that most other 2nd basemen could only dream about getting near.And this isn't just a homer opinion. It's a joke Jeter got another GG. He has as much range as Paulie Shore.
Finally, the 'I know what I saw' argument when presented with data that disagrees with your perspective is one of the clearest signs of homerism and the inability to consider that you just might be wrong.
Good luck with that.
Yea it's very cool. Way cooler than feeding granola to starving lizards, or whatever crap it is you do.
Feeding granola to starving lizards? I'm not even sure what the #### it is you are trying to say.
He called you a dork.HTH
Wait...you supposedly have 10 TVs set up in your lonely cave to watch every NFL game but you also bought the MLB package to watch so you can watch every MLB second baseman every night?Who is the dork here?
I'm sorry. That opinion is not allowed.
They actually watch EVERY SINGLE PLAY OF EVERY SINGLE GAME to make these ratings. And your observation (right or wrong) is only relevant to Cano's ability to move to his right, it means nothing about his mobility to the left or his positioning.Serious question: The stat nerds who develop these metrics; do they actually WATCH baseball or are they merely slaves to box scores and fielding percentages? Because anyone who has watched Robbie play 2B more than 8-10 times this past year knows it is laughable to consider him "below average." He gets to balls in the hole that most other 2nd basemen could only dream about getting near.And this isn't just a homer opinion. It's a joke Jeter got another GG. He has as much range as Paulie Shore.
Scratch that, and reverse it. The hole at 2b is towards first. To his right would be up the middle.There is also a "hole" going towards Tex.
Whatever. Can we all move on? Cano is a fine second baseman.I don't want anyone else with a BAD MOTHER ####ER wallet making fun of me.Scratch that, and reverse it. The hole at 2b is towards first. To his right would be up the middle.There is also a "hole" going towards Tex.
