AL MVP-poll (1 Viewer)

[Doctor Detroit]

Please, Pedro was not "screwed" at least in the context of the moment.

He was screwed because two knuckleheads took it upon themselves to not even include him on their ballot. Pudge had a great year, no doubt. An MVP worthy year. But his winning was a sham because of King and Neal.

Yeah that shows the mentality of some of these idiots who get to vote on things like this.

 

[igbomb]

I'm fine with Batista winning it, I would vote Grandy based on my bias of watching him and the team all year, but Batista is having another strong season.

My big issue with this is giving it to a pitcher, as I've said repeatedly. The only way I'm behind it is in the rare alignment of huge, historic, pitching season, team success and no real outstanding offensive candidate.

What did you think of the "point #3" mentioned above about Verlander pitching to more plate appearances than any hitter will have this season? I think it's flawed in that it ignores defense and baserunning (I think this criticism is particulaly valid in the AL), but it's still a very good point to consider.With respect to Granderson, his problem is that there's no line of reasoning where he comes out on top even if you set aside Bautista. If you like the "slash" numbers Gonzalez is better. If you like WAR Pedroia and Ellsbury are better. If you like WPA several guys are better, including everyone I've mentioned so far. If you like those advanced stats but don't trust their fielding metrics, Gonzalez and Cabrera offered more hitting-only value and I think we can all agree Gonzalez plays better defense than Granderson. Granderson is a solid candidate, maybe Top 5, but there's no analysis that leads to the conclusion that he should win.

I mentioned above, bottom line, its short sighted. Its 1/5 of the starts, not 1/5 of the innings and it ignores defensive relevance. I think its a great "argument" but bypasses the contribution players make on defense.

Is Gonzalez better by comparison then most first basemen as compares to Granderson vs. most centerfielders? I would say yes, he's a top 3 defender at the position in the AL, but Granderson's defense is overly maligned and I learned all I need to know about defensive metrics when they said Teixera was a below average defender. CF is not a tremendously deep position in the AL, he's no worse than the 6th best defender out there and thats counting part time guys playing right now like Endy Chavez and DeWayne Wise. They're hardly full time starters. Grandy plays a shallow center, which cuts off the dinks and dunks but leaves him vulnernable to deep drives.

An average defender in CF is more vital a great 1b, for my money.

I know you can offer all sorts of rationale as to why slash line stats are more valuable, but Verlander's main case is wins, a "dinosaur" stat, but Granderson leads MLB in runs and RBI and he's 2nd in HR. I don't know that he needs statistical support beyond that, to me it speaks for itself.

I will say this though, the only guy without viable, legitimate MVP support on his team, is Batista. Cano/Grandy, Pedroia/AGon/Ellsbury and Verlander/Cabrera should all theoretically cancel each other out.

Once again, I'm looking to precedent here. If Guidry '78 and Pedro '99 aren't MVP seasons, then I don't think JV'11 is.

I keep seeing this argument and it makes no sense to me. Pedro getting screwed in 99 has no bearing on today. Saying that you must outperform that non-MVP season to be considered is akin to saying that outperforming Willie Hernandez's '84 season and his 3.1 WAR is all it should take to exclude position players from consideration. It's an illogical, non-sensical argument either way you cut it.

Please, Pedro was not "screwed" at least in the context of the moment. Pudge, while we can look back and imagine he was on the gas, had one of the greatest offensive seasons ever by a catcher playing in the heat of Texas. .332

35 HR

113 RBI

25 SB

It makes sense because you have some sort of track record for how most voting trends. The Hernandez and Eck votes always puzzled me, but I'd imagine that was an acknowledgement and nod to the domiance of that 84 Tiger squad.

Bull. In '99, everyone was smoking the ball. There are half a dozen American League batters with an offensive case as strong as Pudge's. The fact that he played catcher helps, but so does Alomar at 2nd and Jeter and Garciaparra at SS. Pudge was not appreciably better than any of them. Meanwhile, Pedro was so much better than the next best player, or any other pitcher in the next ten years, that he should have walked away with that award unanimously. He was as screwed as any player ever has been.

 

[wilked]

Ellsbury changing a lot of writers votes I bet...

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_id=mlb&content_id=19656433&topic_id=24251878

 

[shadyridr]

Ellsbury changing a lot of writers votes I bet...http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_id=mlb&content_id=19656433&topic_id=24251878

hard to disagree with that

 

[wilked]

Updated WAR table

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0

 

[TobiasFunke]

Updated WAR tablehttp://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0

Or ...http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2011-value-batting.shtml#players_value_batting::13But yeah, Ellsbury wouldn't be a terrible choice any more. Still should be Bautista, IMO, but there are three defensible choices. Thereal problem is in the NL, where the choice is really obvious but the writers may pull their usual hijinks and screw over a guy because his teammates aren't as good as some other guys.

 

[Giantseasonticketholder]

Ellsbury changing a lot of writers votes I bet...http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_id=mlb&content_id=19656433&topic_id=24251878

Toss up between him and Bautista. Gonzalez and Granderson have faded.Ironic that the MVP in either league is not going to come from a playoff team.

 

[jon_mx]

If Verlander had won his last game, I would think he would have gotten this by a good margin. Now it is 50-50.

 

[shadyridr]

If Verlander had won his last game, I would think he would have gotten this by a good margin. Now it is 50-50.

why

 

[shadyridr]

My vote goes to Ellsbury

 

[jon_mx]

If Verlander had won his last game, I would think he would have gotten this by a good margin. Now it is 50-50.

why

That 25th win would have capped it off, plus Detroit it would have helped wrap the second seed up. It would have been an exclamation point on a great great season. Now the last thing he did was lose a game, so those looking for an excuse not to give a pitcher MVP now have one.

 

[boubucarow]

One of the announcers brought up a point about Ellsbury putting himself in scoring position on his own more than anyone else (including home runs).

I see his 83 extra base hits plus his 33 steals of 2B putting him at 116.

Bautista 69+4 = 73

Cabrera 77+2 = 79

Granderson 87+22 = 109

Gonzalez 75+1 = 76

Of course, not an end all be all but interesting.

 

[dparker713]

One of the announcers brought up a point about Ellsbury putting himself in scoring position on his own more than anyone else (including home runs).I see his 83 extra base hits plus his 33 steals of 2B putting him at 116.Bautista 69+4 = 73Cabrera 77+2 = 79Granderson 87+22 = 109Gonzalez 75+1 = 76Of course, not an end all be all but interesting.

That ignores his 15 caught stealing. Oh and he stole 38 this year.

 

[Greco]

I voted Miguel Cabrera the day this poll was started and I'd vote him twice, now, if I could.

 

[boubucarow]

One of the announcers brought up a point about Ellsbury putting himself in scoring position on his own more than anyone else (including home runs).I see his 83 extra base hits plus his 33 steals of 2B putting him at 116.Bautista 69+4 = 73Cabrera 77+2 = 79Granderson 87+22 = 109Gonzalez 75+1 = 76Of course, not an end all be all but interesting.

That ignores his 15 caught stealing. Oh and he stole 38 this year.

He stole 3B 5 times which doesn't count since he already was in scoring position. And out of his 15 caught stealing, he was caught stealing 2nd 14 times so that doesn't factor in since he never was in scoring position in the 1st place. The 1 time he was caught stealing 3B could be counted as taking himself out of scoring position but since he stole 2B 1 more time last night, he sits at 116 still.Again, the stat was only times when Ellsbury put himself in scoring position (or scored) without any help from his teammates. So, a extra base hit or a steal of 2B are the only things that accomplish that (aside from errors).

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I guess we scratch Ellsbury/Gonzalez/Pedroia off this list? An MVP wouldn't let his team collapse like that.

 

[TobiasFunke]

One of the announcers brought up a point about Ellsbury putting himself in scoring position on his own more than anyone else (including home runs).

I see his 83 extra base hits plus his 33 steals of 2B putting him at 116.

Bautista 69+4 = 73

Cabrera 77+2 = 79

Granderson 87+22 = 109

Gonzalez 75+1 = 76

Of course, not an end all be all but interesting.

That ignores his 15 caught stealing. Oh and he stole 38 this year.

He stole 3B 5 times which doesn't count since he already was in scoring position. And out of his 15 caught stealing, he was caught stealing 2nd 14 times so that doesn't factor in since he never was in scoring position in the 1st place. The 1 time he was caught stealing 3B could be counted as taking himself out of scoring position but since he stole 2B 1 more time last night, he sits at 116 still.Again, the stat was only times when Ellsbury put himself in scoring position (or scored) without any help from his teammates. So, a extra base hit or a steal of 2B are the only things that accomplish that (aside from errors).

This is really poor analysis. By this logic a player that had 50 extra base hits and stole 25 bases but got caught stealing 50 times would be "better" than a player that had 50 extra base hits and stole 24 times without getting caught. That's fine if you want to make up a weird "putting yourself in scoring position" stat like that, but the logic behind it means it has virtually no relevance to the player's value. If you assume the players reached first base at the same clip, the guy who stole 24 times without getting caught would score a LOT more runs for his team than the guy who stole 25 times but ran into 50 outs.Bottom line, it's a weird analysis in the first place, but if you're gonna incorporate the added value of steals you have to find a way to include the cost of getting caught stealing.

 

[boubucarow]

One of the announcers brought up a point about Ellsbury putting himself in scoring position on his own more than anyone else (including home runs).

I see his 83 extra base hits plus his 33 steals of 2B putting him at 116.

Bautista 69+4 = 73

Cabrera 77+2 = 79

Granderson 87+22 = 109

Gonzalez 75+1 = 76

Of course, not an end all be all but interesting.

That ignores his 15 caught stealing. Oh and he stole 38 this year.

He stole 3B 5 times which doesn't count since he already was in scoring position. And out of his 15 caught stealing, he was caught stealing 2nd 14 times so that doesn't factor in since he never was in scoring position in the 1st place. The 1 time he was caught stealing 3B could be counted as taking himself out of scoring position but since he stole 2B 1 more time last night, he sits at 116 still.Again, the stat was only times when Ellsbury put himself in scoring position (or scored) without any help from his teammates. So, a extra base hit or a steal of 2B are the only things that accomplish that (aside from errors).

This is really poor analysis. By this logic a player that had 50 extra base hits and stole 25 bases but got caught stealing 50 times would be "better" than a player that had 50 extra base hits and stole 24 times without getting caught. That's fine if you want to make up a weird "putting yourself in scoring position" stat like that, but the logic behind it means it has virtually no relevance to the player's value. If you assume the players reached first base at the same clip, the guy who stole 24 times without getting caught would score a LOT more runs for his team than the guy who stole 25 times but ran into 50 outs.Bottom line, it's a weird analysis in the first place, but if you're gonna incorporate the added value of steals you have to find a way to include the cost of getting caught stealing.

I wasn't responding to Parker to build a case for the stat or for Ellsbury. I was just clarifying what the stat meant as I understood it. It doesn't matter to me how useful it is right now and I am sure all of the advanced stats already take such things into account anyways. Seriously, it was interesting to me. I just never heard a stat like that before and thought others might find it interesting.

 

[TobiasFunke]

One of the announcers brought up a point about Ellsbury putting himself in scoring position on his own more than anyone else (including home runs).

I see his 83 extra base hits plus his 33 steals of 2B putting him at 116.

Bautista 69+4 = 73

Cabrera 77+2 = 79

Granderson 87+22 = 109

Gonzalez 75+1 = 76

Of course, not an end all be all but interesting.

That ignores his 15 caught stealing. Oh and he stole 38 this year.

He stole 3B 5 times which doesn't count since he already was in scoring position. And out of his 15 caught stealing, he was caught stealing 2nd 14 times so that doesn't factor in since he never was in scoring position in the 1st place. The 1 time he was caught stealing 3B could be counted as taking himself out of scoring position but since he stole 2B 1 more time last night, he sits at 116 still.Again, the stat was only times when Ellsbury put himself in scoring position (or scored) without any help from his teammates. So, a extra base hit or a steal of 2B are the only things that accomplish that (aside from errors).

This is really poor analysis. By this logic a player that had 50 extra base hits and stole 25 bases but got caught stealing 50 times would be "better" than a player that had 50 extra base hits and stole 24 times without getting caught. That's fine if you want to make up a weird "putting yourself in scoring position" stat like that, but the logic behind it means it has virtually no relevance to the player's value. If you assume the players reached first base at the same clip, the guy who stole 24 times without getting caught would score a LOT more runs for his team than the guy who stole 25 times but ran into 50 outs.Bottom line, it's a weird analysis in the first place, but if you're gonna incorporate the added value of steals you have to find a way to include the cost of getting caught stealing.

I wasn't responding to Parker to build a case for the stat or for Ellsbury. I was just clarifying what the stat meant as I understood it. It doesn't matter to me how useful it is right now and I am sure all of the advanced stats already take such things into account anyways. Seriously, it was interesting to me. I just never heard a stat like that before and thought others might find it interesting.

Gotcha. I thought you were advocating its use. I wasn't a fan, obviously.

 

[Raider Nation]

JV

Good for him.

 

[oso diablo]

individual awards should be based on individual accomplishments, and no regard should be given for how good or how poor one's teammates are.

I believe that's what the Cy Young and Hank Aaron awards are for.

and the MVP award

 

[jon_mx]

I wanted to thank you guys for offering up this very interesting conversation about who should come in second in the AL MVP voting behind Bautista.

Update?

 

[TobiasFunke]

I wanted to thank you guys for offering up this very interesting conversation about who should come in second in the AL MVP voting behind Bautista.

Update?

The guy who should have won came in third in the voting behind Justin Verlander and Jacoby Ellsbury.There you go, you're now up to speed. Not sure why you couldn't have looked that up yourself, but if you haven't mastered Google yet I'm happy to help you out

 

[jon_mx]

I wanted to thank you guys for offering up this very interesting conversation about who should come in second in the AL MVP voting behind Bautista.

Update?

The guy who should have won came in third in the voting behind Justin Verlander and Jacoby Ellsbury.There you go, you're now up to speed. Not sure why you couldn't have looked that up yourself, but if you haven't mastered Google yet I'm happy to help you out

Major league baseball players voted Verlander most outstanding player in baseball. I think they have better insight than you.

 

[Eephus]

I wanted to thank you guys for offering up this very interesting conversation about who should come in second in the AL MVP voting behind Bautista.

Update?

The guy who should have won came in third in the voting behind Justin Verlander and Jacoby Ellsbury.There you go, you're now up to speed. Not sure why you couldn't have looked that up yourself, but if you haven't mastered Google yet I'm happy to help you out

Major league baseball players voted Verlander most outstanding player in baseball. I think they have better insight than you.

Well, they have more money

 

[oso diablo]

Major league baseball players voted Verlander most outstanding player in baseball. I think they have better insight than you.

have you met many baseball players? Insightful would be one of the last adjectives i'd use to describe them. Vain, yes. Peculiar. Uncouth, for the most part. Superstitious. Doltish.This is fun.That all said, it doesn't mean they're wrong. I just do happen to agree with TF and would have voted for Bautista.

 

[dparker713]

I wanted to thank you guys for offering up this very interesting conversation about who should come in second in the AL MVP voting behind Bautista.

Update?

The guy who should have won came in third in the voting behind Justin Verlander and Jacoby Ellsbury.There you go, you're now up to speed. Not sure why you couldn't have looked that up yourself, but if you haven't mastered Google yet I'm happy to help you out

Major league baseball players voted Verlander most outstanding player in baseball. I think they have better insight than you.

Playing baseball well has little to do with evaluating baseball talent.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I wanted to thank you guys for offering up this very interesting conversation about who should come in second in the AL MVP voting behind Bautista.

Update?

The guy who should have won came in third in the voting behind Justin Verlander and Jacoby Ellsbury.There you go, you're now up to speed. Not sure why you couldn't have looked that up yourself, but if you haven't mastered Google yet I'm happy to help you out

Major league baseball players voted Verlander most outstanding player in baseball. I think they have better insight than you.

Playing baseball well has little to do with evaluating baseball talent.

Bingo.Who would you rather have running your team, Theo Epstein or Joe Morgan?

 

[Eephus]

I wanted to thank you guys for offering up this very interesting conversation about who should come in second in the AL MVP voting behind Bautista.

Update?

The guy who should have won came in third in the voting behind Justin Verlander and Jacoby Ellsbury.There you go, you're now up to speed. Not sure why you couldn't have looked that up yourself, but if you haven't mastered Google yet I'm happy to help you out

Major league baseball players voted Verlander most outstanding player in baseball. I think they have better insight than you.

Playing baseball well has little to do with evaluating baseball talent.

Bingo.Who would you rather have running your team, Theo Epstein or Joe Morgan?

Which one contributed more to their respective championship teams?

 

[dparker713]

I wanted to thank you guys for offering up this very interesting conversation about who should come in second in the AL MVP voting behind Bautista.

Update?

The guy who should have won came in third in the voting behind Justin Verlander and Jacoby Ellsbury.There you go, you're now up to speed. Not sure why you couldn't have looked that up yourself, but if you haven't mastered Google yet I'm happy to help you out

Major league baseball players voted Verlander most outstanding player in baseball. I think they have better insight than you.

Playing baseball well has little to do with evaluating baseball talent.

Bingo.Who would you rather have running your team, Theo Epstein or Joe Morgan?

Which one contributed more to their respective championship teams?

Theo was more responsible for the 07 team than Morgan was for any of his Reds championship teams.

 

[Eephus]

I wanted to thank you guys for offering up this very interesting conversation about who should come in second in the AL MVP voting behind Bautista.

Update?

The guy who should have won came in third in the voting behind Justin Verlander and Jacoby Ellsbury.There you go, you're now up to speed. Not sure why you couldn't have looked that up yourself, but if you haven't mastered Google yet I'm happy to help you out

Major league baseball players voted Verlander most outstanding player in baseball. I think they have better insight than you.

Playing baseball well has little to do with evaluating baseball talent.

Bingo.Who would you rather have running your team, Theo Epstein or Joe Morgan?

Which one contributed more to their respective championship teams?

Theo was more responsible for the 07 team than Morgan was for any of his Reds championship teams.

That's just silly. Morgan was NL MVP in both of the Big Red Machine's championship years with back-to-back 10 WAR seasons.I'll come back apologize in Oct 2012 if the Cubs improve 10 games and the Sox decline by a similar margin.

 

[dparker713]

I wanted to thank you guys for offering up this very interesting conversation about who should come in second in the AL MVP voting behind Bautista.

Update?

The guy who should have won came in third in the voting behind Justin Verlander and Jacoby Ellsbury.There you go, you're now up to speed. Not sure why you couldn't have looked that up yourself, but if you haven't mastered Google yet I'm happy to help you out

Major league baseball players voted Verlander most outstanding player in baseball. I think they have better insight than you.

Playing baseball well has little to do with evaluating baseball talent.

Bingo.Who would you rather have running your team, Theo Epstein or Joe Morgan?

Which one contributed more to their respective championship teams?

Theo was more responsible for the 07 team than Morgan was for any of his Reds championship teams.

That's just silly. Morgan was NL MVP in both of the Big Red Machine's championship years with back-to-back 10 WAR seasons.I'll come back apologize in Oct 2012 if the Cubs improve 10 games and the Sox decline by a similar margin.

You don't think that a GM can be responsible for a 10 more win swing in a franchise?

 

[Eephus]

I wanted to thank you guys for offering up this very interesting conversation about who should come in second in the AL MVP voting behind Bautista.

Update?

The guy who should have won came in third in the voting behind Justin Verlander and Jacoby Ellsbury.There you go, you're now up to speed. Not sure why you couldn't have looked that up yourself, but if you haven't mastered Google yet I'm happy to help you out

Major league baseball players voted Verlander most outstanding player in baseball. I think they have better insight than you.

Playing baseball well has little to do with evaluating baseball talent.

Bingo.Who would you rather have running your team, Theo Epstein or Joe Morgan?

Which one contributed more to their respective championship teams?

Theo was more responsible for the 07 team than Morgan was for any of his Reds championship teams.

That's just silly. Morgan was NL MVP in both of the Big Red Machine's championship years with back-to-back 10 WAR seasons.I'll come back apologize in Oct 2012 if the Cubs improve 10 games and the Sox decline by a similar margin.

You don't think that a GM can be responsible for a 10 more win swing in a franchise?

Not by himself

 

[the moops]

Joe Morgan was an excellent ballplayer. But can't we all agree that he is a moron?

 

[dparker713]

You don't think that a GM can be responsible for a 10 more win swing in a franchise?

Not by himself

The GM is only responsible for every single baseball hire and decision. He selects the manager, the scouting director, the minor league coordinator, which players to sign in FA, which players to offer arbitration, and he's involved in all the player negotiations. All those decisions can easily add up to over a 10 win swing.

 

[Smack Tripper]

[You don't think that a GM can be responsible for a 10 more win swing in a franchise?

Not by himself

Pat Gillick disagrees.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Joe Morgan was an excellent ballplayer. But can't we all agree that he is a moron?

This was the point I was making- that ballplayers don't necessarily know what they're talking about when it comes to player value. How you all turned it into a debate over the value of GMs vs. ballplayers' on-field contributions is beyond me.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

[

You don't think that a GM can be responsible for a 10 more win swing in a franchise?

Not by himself

Pat Gillick disagrees.

Randy Smith could do 30 game swings, he was that good.