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Andre Johnson, best WR in NFL? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Bri
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fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
The discussion for top WRs in the league at this moment in time starts and endx with these four names...
-Torry Holt
-Marvin Harrison
-Chad Johnson
-Steve Smith
-Torry Holt
-Marvin Harrison
-Chad Johnson
-Steve Smith
for sake of discussion, why so?
GreenNGold
Footballguy
Wrong. Chad Johnson is not even in the top 10 at his position. Draft accordingly.
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SoFresh&SoClean
Footballguy
You are right on the stats. I didn't know Cook and Leach were RBs. I just counted the big guys.I still think his RB performance as receivers is definitely an impact. Dominick Davis was a legitimate receiving threat. The 2006 RBs were just dump offs because of a scared Carr. Lundy was the #1 receiving RB with 204 yards and Leach (who has 0 rushes for his entire career) had the only receiving TD.In only 11 games in 2005, DD had 337 yards receiving and 4 receiving TDs (5 total for RBs). In 2004, he had 588 yards receiving and 1 TD (3 total for RBs).In 2004 and 2005, DD also had 45 1st downs receiving and 8.6 ypr. In 2006, Lundy averaged 6.2 ypr, Cook 5.9, Gado 5.0 and Dayne 5.5. All other RBs had 6 or less receptions in 2006. The same 4 had 18 first downs.So looking at DD in 2004-2005:107 receptions, 8.6 ypr, 5 TDs, 45 first downsThe top 4 RBs in 2006 (the guys with 14+ receptions):81 receptions, 5.8 ypr, 0 TDs, 18 first downsI understand that the overall numbers might be closer than I thought, but it sure looks to me like DD was a much greater receiving threat than the 2006 RBs and I would bet that defenses actually planned for a guy who averaged 4+ receptions per game versus the 2006 RBs where Lundy was the tops with 2 rpg.
You mean a player who has terrible surrounding talent or situation? Maybe like Santana Moss with old man Brunnel at QB and David Freakin Patten opposite him? Or how about Lee Evans with JP Losman at QB and Peerless Price opposite? Maybe Hines Ward on a team that finished last in the league in pass attempts? Javon Walker with Plummer and a rookie at QB and an old broken down Rod Smith oppositehim? Anquan Boldin with Jeff Blake and no one else worth a damn on the roster? Heck Torry Holt produced with Ryan Fitzpatrick and Jamie Martin throwing to him for half a season.In the seasons I mention above each of these WR significantly outperformed Johnson in either yards, YPC, or TDs. In some cases in all three areas. At some point you have to throw the excuses out the window if a guy is a superstar he will perform like a superstar. AJ has had four years in the league, he isn't a superstar player.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
I originally had Driver in the tier 2 but after evaluating his stats and seeing his consitency in the last 3 years forced me to have him in tier 1. Over the last 3 years Driver has averaged 87.3 receptions per year , 1241 yards per year, and 7.3 TD's per year which would easily classify him as an elite WR for more than one season. I know his stats are a little fluctuated by the pass happy Favre, but those are some pretty good stats. (A. Johnson has more talent than Driver, but at this point I can't put him ahead of this elite consistency).Wayne would fit the same description as Driver. I do believe that Wayne is a more talented WR than Driver. When looking back at this in time, I think Johnson will be seen as better than Driver and a good chance he will be seen as good as Wayne and probably a little better.
Banger
Footballguy
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Johnson is comparable to TO.In fact, through their first 4 seasons in their careers here is how their numbers compare:Johnson61 games311 receptions3953 yards17 TD'sOwens62 games222 receptions3307 yards30 TD'sNow, Owens has nearly twice as many TD's with 13 more than Johnson (in 1998 Owens 3rd year in the leauge he caught 14 TD's, the 49ers threw for 41 TD's that year) but Johnson has 100 more receptions and 700 more yards. Johnson, is going to have a very nice career (he will be considered elite when his career is done). He just needs to show that consistency that Owens found after his first 4 years in the leauge to be considered elite. We do know that A. Johnson is an elite talent and should be considered in everyone's top 10 WR list in the NFL.
Banger
Footballguy
I don't know that at all and I wouldn't take him top 10. His best year is 79-1142-6, that's nice but by no means elite (and that was 3 years ago).
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Over the past 4 years Johnson ranks 21st in total fantasy points accumulated. He's never finished better than WR18.
Does that mean he's not elite? No, but i know he hasnt definitively proven he's elite. He's had mediocre QBs and suspect injury ridden running games to contend with. Ok. Well this year he has a different mediocre QB and a different suspect injury ridden RB to contend with. So why assume he's going to jump up into the top 10 now of all times?
Does that mean he's not elite? No, but i know he hasnt definitively proven he's elite. He's had mediocre QBs and suspect injury ridden running games to contend with. Ok. Well this year he has a different mediocre QB and a different suspect injury ridden RB to contend with. So why assume he's going to jump up into the top 10 now of all times?
Dancing Bear
Footballguy
I don't know how you can make this assertion from a Fantasy perspective. In his best year he was WR #22 in Fantasy points and he did not crack the Top 40 for WR's in ppg for players with 8 or more games played!Additionally, you are really reaching IMHO if you believe that Matt Schaub is going to be better than David Carr and all of a sudden Johnson has 100 catches with a 15 YPC and 10 TD's. Carr spent more time on his back the past 4 years than any other starting QB in the NFL; Schaub is simply the next Mati Hari in Texas servicing the many Defenses of the NFL as they come waltzing into the backfield.
Your bolded statement leaves some holes but you sorta did and didn't answer my Q which is most likely a result of my poor wording of the question.Ok you recognize these guys have it tougher than some other WRs, now when you're doing your rankings do they get any "points" for that? How much? Hard to quantify a thought...umm would tough situation player edge out someone that had 50 yards +2 TDs more the year before? Anything along those lines really. Do you consider it and if so what happens?
Fair argument. IMO I feel confident he will. If he can lead the league in catches while getting smotherred and swarmed by the Ds, when they get another good receiving threat it's gotta seem easy then. I just can't imagine it any other way. He makes me hypocritical about Carr. One of my reasons I keep stating for not liking Carr is that he actually threw it, even though he had 3 defenders on him. Then again, part of me likes that in a Favre sorta gutsy way.
He was 11th last year counting week 17 where ...well it was week 17Not counting week 17 he was 7th.
http://football35.myfantasyleague.com/2007...ints&TEAM=*
pretty common scoring in that league
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Last year was Johnson's best year as a pro. 103 catches 1147 yards and 5 TD's is an elite season. Sure it would be nice to see the yardage total come up and the TD's as well, but that is an elite year. How many Wr's playing right now have 100 catches in at least one season???Harrison (4 times)Holt (twice)Boldin (twice in 4 years) one of the most underrated WR's in the gameR. Moss (twice)T. Owens (once in 10 years)Steve Smith (once)I. Bruce (once in 12 years)K. Johnson (once in 11 years) He had 106 that year with only 1 TD
Fitz (once)Muhammed (once)Moulds (once)R. Smith (twice)So aside from his yards and touchdowns he had an elite season? Thats an odd way of looking at things.Mike Furrey had 98 receptions last season, was that elite? The only statistic Johnson stands out in was receptions. He was 30th in TDs, 11th in yardage, 9th in first downs, and 38th in yards per reception (WRs with >50 catches). One would hope he would produce more with all those catches, and by definition none of those numbers are elite.Andre Johnson was the only game in town so its not surprising he broke a hundred receptions. Johnson just hasnt scored enough TDs to be considered elite. Owen Daniels scored 5 TDs as well. Like I said, he may be a victim of circumstances, but those circumstances dont seem to have improved much.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
If you don't feel that 100 receptions in a season is an elite year then maybe you should do a search to see how many WR's in the HISTORY of the game have had that many in a season. There have been a grand total of 15 WR's to ever catch at least 100 balls in a season. Sure you can try to down play Johnson's reception stats, by saying his TD and yardage total were just ok. But, you are living by some pretty high standards if you don't think what Johnson did last year was elite. I mean only J. Rice and Harrison have had more than 100 receptions in a season beyond 2 times. Anyways, I think Johnson should easily be considered as one of the top 10 WR's in the game today whether you agree with that or not, he should definitely be close to everyone's top 10 list.
Banger
Footballguy
You can isolate certain stats to fit your argument but you have to consider the entire body of work. Yes, if you are in a reception only league I'll agree that Johnson was elite last year but I don't know many people that play in leagues like that. Usually yardage and TD's are a large factor in scoring. Last year, AJ's career year by the way, he finished 11th in yardage and there were 34 wr's that had as many or more TD's. Sorry, that's not elite, it's good and it's why he finished 18th in wr scoring. If anyone seriously thinks he's the best wr in the NFL is an owner of AJ and need to get a little more objectivity.Last year was Johnson's best year as a pro. 103 catches 1147 yards and 5 TD's is an elite season. Sure it would be nice to see the yardage total come up and the TD's as well, but that is an elite year. How many Wr's playing right now have 100 catches in at least one season???Harrison (4 times)Holt (twice)Boldin (twice in 4 years) one of the most underrated WR's in the gameR. Moss (twice)T. Owens (once in 10 years)Steve Smith (once)I. Bruce (once in 12 years)K. Johnson (once in 11 years) He had 106 that year with only 1 TDFitz (once)Muhammed (once)Moulds (once)R. Smith (twice)
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
First off, I would say the majority of people play in PPR leagues. Last year Johnson was very good in PPR leagues. Secondly, I don't think A. Johnson is the best WR in the game at this time. I think he is cleary in the running to be a top 10 WR in the league.You can isolate certain stats to fit your argument but you have to consider the entire body of work. Yes, if you are in a reception only league I'll agree that Johnson was elite last year but I don't know many people that play in leagues like that. Usually yardage and TD's are a large factor in scoring. Last year, AJ's career year by the way, he finished 11th in yardage and there were 34 wr's that had as many or more TD's. Sorry, that's not elite, it's good and it's why he finished 18th in wr scoring. If anyone seriously thinks he's the best wr in the NFL is an owner of AJ and need to get a little more objectivity.Last year was Johnson's best year as a pro. 103 catches 1147 yards and 5 TD's is an elite season. Sure it would be nice to see the yardage total come up and the TD's as well, but that is an elite year.
How many Wr's playing right now have 100 catches in at least one season???
Harrison (4 times)
Holt (twice)
Boldin (twice in 4 years) one of the most underrated WR's in the game
R. Moss (twice)
T. Owens (once in 10 years)
Steve Smith (once)
I. Bruce (once in 12 years)
K. Johnson (once in 11 years) He had 106 that year with only 1 TD
Fitz (once)
Muhammed (once)
Moulds (once)
R. Smith (twice)
Also, I am trying to refrain from arguing from a fantasy perspective here. In fantasy, Johnson has not yet become as valuable as he actually is in NFL terms.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
You can isolate certain stats to fit your argument but you have to consider the entire body of work. Yes, if you are in a reception only league I'll agree that Johnson was elite last year but I don't know many people that play in leagues like that. Usually yardage and TD's are a large factor in scoring. Last year, AJ's career year by the way, he finished 11th in yardage and there were 34 wr's that had as many or more TD's. Sorry, that's not elite, it's good and it's why he finished 18th in wr scoring. If anyone seriously thinks he's the best wr in the NFL is an owner of AJ and need to get a little more objectivity.Last year was Johnson's best year as a pro. 103 catches 1147 yards and 5 TD's is an elite season. Sure it would be nice to see the yardage total come up and the TD's as well, but that is an elite year. How many Wr's playing right now have 100 catches in at least one season???Harrison (4 times)Holt (twice)Boldin (twice in 4 years) one of the most underrated WR's in the gameR. Moss (twice)T. Owens (once in 10 years)Steve Smith (once)I. Bruce (once in 12 years)K. Johnson (once in 11 years) He had 106 that year with only 1 TDFitz (once)Muhammed (once)Moulds (once)R. Smith (twice)
1100 yards and 5 TDs is no where close to being dubbed an "Elite" season.P.S. - Carter_Can_Fly is a A. Johnson owner, so his man-crush on A. Johnson seems to be clouding his judgmentIt was an elite year in receptions. That doesnt make an elite year overall- it generally means the QB has nobody else to throw to. Troy Brown had over 100 receptions in 2001 and 97 in 2002. He wasnt elite either. Like I said, Mike Furrey had 5 less catches last season and he only started 14 games. If that's an elite season we need to redefine the term.
My standards for what constitutes 'elite' are high? Erm... My point is im not that impressed with catching 100 passes. I dont consider that a good indicator or an elite season. Catching a pass doesnt move the chains or put points on the board, and in most leagues it doesnt give you FPs.
Elite means top 5 at the very loosest, probably top 3 in most peoples book.
The top 5 fantasy WRs last year averaged 89.2 receptions- meaning Johnson was 14% better. But, they averaged 1282 yards receiving (-11%), 10.2 tds(-51%), 69 first downs(-20%), and 190 FPs(-23%). Why would I call a guy elite because he excels at 1 catagory, and the least important catagory at that? Its a bad month if TO doesnt catch 5 tds.
I think he's a top 10 WR if im starting an NFL franchise, but not in fantasy, not this year.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Agreed.In a dynasty draft he is a top 10 WR, but in a redraft not a for sure at all, but definitely worth consideration.
weird statement
