Another RB to be victimized by ridiculous theory: (1 Viewer)

[BigJim®]

For 2 years FFers endured the "Julius Jones is wearing down defenses for Marion Barber" hogwash. That hardly seems to be the case since Barber ran for over 100 yards in his first start without some less productive starter wearing down defenses for him. He's more productive, end of story.

Regardless, now Deangelo Williams is being stigmatized by this same foolish reasoning, despite averaging over 5 yards a carry in 2007. According to the Charlotte Observer:

Under Fox, the Panthers' running game is focused on wearing the opponent down. It doesn't always happen that way, because when the opponent grabs an early lead, Carolina is forced to throw more and the running game often is discarded. When it works, the Panthers often pile up the bulk of their bigger rushing totals in the second half, as the defense wears down. In the eight games in which Carolina ran for more than 100 yards, the total rushing yards were 1,241, or an average of 155.1.

In the second halves of those games, the team ran for 746 yards, an average of 93.3. That compares with a first-half mark of 61.9 yards.

There was little difference in the season-long first-half results produced by Foster and Williams, with the exception that Foster had more carries.

On 121 first-half carries, Foster totaled 468 yards (3.9 average). Williams had 54 carries before the break, and gained 221 yards (4.1). Not a lot to choose from.

The difference becomes dramatic after halftime. Foster got slightly more carries than he did in the first half, with 126. They produced just 408 yards, a 3.2 average.

Williams, on the other hand, saw his rushing attempts dramatically increase, to 90, and he produced 496 yards after the half, a 5.5 average.

.........

Consider three things, though, before you verbally tackle Foster.

First, it was Foster's job to soften up opposing defenses. At 6-feet and 222 pounds, he is bigger than the 5-9, 217-pound Williams, and was called on to do most of that first-half pounding.

Also remember Williams was the change-of-pace back, a guy who usually entered the game after a heavy dose of Foster. With a different style and better cutback ability, some of Williams' yards likely came when he caught by surprise opponents who were getting used to Foster.

So, Deangelo Williams had more opportunity to get into a flow and it resulted in great production in second halves of games this year. That should be translated to argue that Deshaun Foster is needed to continue wearing down defenses? Foster's 5 added pounds makes him the "pounding RB"? Sorry, I realize the Observer has fallen over itself historically pimping D.Foster at D.Williams' expense, but these numbers only show that Williams is more productive when given more opportunity, not that Deangelo Williams benefited from a less productive RB wearing down defenses. Can we please abolish this line of reasoning? When one guy averages 5.0 YPG, and the other averages 3.5 YPG, the more rational "explanation" is simply that one of them is better.

 

[Bankerguy]

I thought Barber looked a bit gased in the late 3rd and 4th Quarter. They should have experimented earlier in the year to see if Barber could should the full load.

 

[David Yudkin]

I don't have an opinion on this one way or another, but I'm guessing the outcome looking at one example is not enough evidence to conclude anything.

And over all, who's to say that one back geting all the carries would equate to the same ypc and that the health of the back would remain intact.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I believe that FO did a study on this in one of the Prospectus'.

 

[BelichicksRevenge]

Barber in the 2nd half was pathetic. Don't have the stats but he must have rushed like 10 times for 25 yards.

 

[hauser42]

I thought Barber looked a bit gased in the late 3rd and 4th Quarter. They should have experimented earlier in the year to see if Barber could should the full load.

He did looked a little gased. This is usually the time Barber ran cray against guys that had been on the field most of the game already.If D Williams is better than Foster he would have been given more playing time this year. He is just this shiny little tool in the tool box that has not yet been used becaue he doesn't fit the job.

 

[dgreen]

Barber in the 2nd half was pathetic. Don't have the stats but he must have rushed like 10 times for 25 yards.

11-28

 

[Texasmouth]

I dont think Barber was gased, I think they stopped feeding him the ball enough. He had a few short runs in the first half too but they kept feeding him the ball and he kept producing.

The passing game wasnt working and instead of sticking with the run and the play action passes, Garrett thought he was Mike Martz and started throwing the ball all over the field. They should have stuck with MBIII and pounded the rock, the game was never out of reach where they couldnt run the ball. Especially with the NY defense eating up the Cowboys offensive line and chasing Romo all over the place.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

For 2 years FFers endured the "Julius Jones is wearing down defenses for Marion Barber" hogwash. That hardly seems to be the case since Barber ran for over 100 yards in his first start without some less productive starter wearing down defenses for him. He's more productive, end of story.

95% of the people here have been saying that the Dallas coaches were crazy for playing Julius over MB3, so I have no idea why you're so up in arms about that.However, while I believe it has nothing to do with MB3 or DeAngelo (I think both should be starting), you're crazy if you think entering a football game completely fresh while everyone else has been playing for an hour and a half isn't an advantage. This is why we have backup chumps with absurd seasonal YPCs, and why guys' YPC almost always declines when taking over the starting role. Unless you expected Jesse Chatman to average 6.0ypc this year once he briefly grabbed the starting gig.

 

[Liquid Tension]

For 2 years FFers endured the "Julius Jones is wearing down defenses for Marion Barber" hogwash. That hardly seems to be the case since Barber ran for over 100 yards in his first start without some less productive starter wearing down defenses for him. He's more productive, end of story.

Regardless, now Deangelo Williams is being stigmatized by this same foolish reasoning, despite averaging over 5 yards a carry in 2007. According to the Charlotte Observer:

Under Fox, the Panthers' running game is focused on wearing the opponent down. It doesn't always happen that way, because when the opponent grabs an early lead, Carolina is forced to throw more and the running game often is discarded. When it works, the Panthers often pile up the bulk of their bigger rushing totals in the second half, as the defense wears down. In the eight games in which Carolina ran for more than 100 yards, the total rushing yards were 1,241, or an average of 155.1.

In the second halves of those games, the team ran for 746 yards, an average of 93.3. That compares with a first-half mark of 61.9 yards.

There was little difference in the season-long first-half results produced by Foster and Williams, with the exception that Foster had more carries.

On 121 first-half carries, Foster totaled 468 yards (3.9 average). Williams had 54 carries before the break, and gained 221 yards (4.1). Not a lot to choose from.

The difference becomes dramatic after halftime. Foster got slightly more carries than he did in the first half, with 126. They produced just 408 yards, a 3.2 average.

Williams, on the other hand, saw his rushing attempts dramatically increase, to 90, and he produced 496 yards after the half, a 5.5 average.

.........

Consider three things, though, before you verbally tackle Foster.

First, it was Foster's job to soften up opposing defenses. At 6-feet and 222 pounds, he is bigger than the 5-9, 217-pound Williams, and was called on to do most of that first-half pounding.

Also remember Williams was the change-of-pace back, a guy who usually entered the game after a heavy dose of Foster. With a different style and better cutback ability, some of Williams' yards likely came when he caught by surprise opponents who were getting used to Foster.

So, Deangelo Williams had more opportunity to get into a flow and it resulted in great production in second halves of games this year. That should be translated to argue that Deshaun Foster is needed to continue wearing down defenses? Foster's 5 added pounds makes him the "pounding RB"? Sorry, I realize the Observer has fallen over itself historically pimping D.Foster at D.Williams' expense, but these numbers only show that Williams is more productive when given more opportunity, not that Deangelo Williams benefited from a less productive RB wearing down defenses. Can we please abolish this line of reasoning? When one guy averages 5.0 YPG, and the other averages 3.5 YPG, the more rational "explanation" is simply that one of them is better.

I mostly agree, but sometimes one runner is used in short yardage situations and the other is used as the 3rd down back and that can impact the YPC. Also, keeping both RB's stronger may make both better?

 

[BigJim®]

I thought Barber looked a bit gased in the late 3rd and 4th Quarter. They should have experimented earlier in the year to see if Barber could should the full load.

Of course you did.

 

[Bri]

Watch Jacobs or Bradshaw or Ward in the 4th Q and then tell me they don't wear down a D.

 

[Bankerguy]

I thought Barber looked a bit gased in the late 3rd and 4th Quarter. They should have experimented earlier in the year to see if Barber could should the full load.

Of course you did.

Apparently so did others?I admit JJ isn't as good as I thought he was. However, I am still right on (at this point) in saying Barber is NOT an everydown back. I've admitted when I am wrong...you should try it too.

 

[BigJim®]

And over all, who's to say that one back geting all the carries would equate to the same ypc and that the health of the back would remain intact.

David,That's not my point. I'm not arguing that a guy will retain 100% of his YPC is he doesn't share carries. My point is Deangelo was not successful merely because Deshaun Foster 'wore down defenses' for him. When Deangelo was given starters carries in week 17, he had 20 carries for 121 yards [6.1 YPC], and 2 rushing TDs. Just like Barber was not successful merely because Julius Jones wore down defense for him. It may be that either of these guys should have a #2 who rotates in a series here and there to keep them fresh, but their current success should not be attributed to the fact that some lesser productive "starting RB" is getting defenses to scream uncle. Also, for those who are jumping on Barber's 2nd half, I'd like to see a datapoint of more than one game to conclude the lack of running success was due to him being tired. The fact is he had an amazing first half without JJ softening up a defense for him. I realize no one here is willing to give NY any credit whatsoever, particularly when the far more attractive option is belittling the one Dallas player who showed up yesterday [Marion Barber]. However, can we consider the remote possibility the NY defensive coordinator reacted to the Dallas blocking scheme? Can we consider the possibility that Dallas as an offensive whole was completely out of sync and putting itself in bad offensive situations due to repeated mistakes that might have led to better running opportunities?

 

[BelichicksRevenge]

I dont think Barber was gased, I think they stopped feeding him the ball enough. He had a few short runs in the first half too but they kept feeding him the ball and he kept producing.

He had 11 carries. He was doing nothing.

 

[BigJim®]

I thought Barber looked a bit gased in the late 3rd and 4th Quarter. They should have experimented earlier in the year to see if Barber could should the full load.

Of course you did.

Apparently so did others?I admit JJ isn't as good as I thought he was. However, I am still right on (at this point) in saying Barber is NOT an everydown back. I've admitted when I am wrong...you should try it too.

I'm shaking my head in disbelief. It takes an unbelievable amount of gall for a person who has defended JJ for 2 years to imply that I owe apologies after Barber had 1 start. Particularly when Barber's 1 start was far more productive than anything Jones has done in recent memory. Gee, how could I be so wrong about Barber.

 

[erikf08]

JJ/Barber and Foster/Williams are two completely different tandums. Foster is the "bruising" rb, not Williams so I guess that's where the "softening defenses" theory comes in for them. No one is going to confuse who the bruiser is in the Dallas backfield. But, it is amazing how "the hardest rb to take down in the NFL" was brought down with ease when the G-Men focused on stopping him. 11 carries for 28 yds in the 2nd half. Not a good game to base your argument.

 

[BigJim®]

Foster is the "bruising" rb, not Williams so I guess that's where the "softening defenses" theory comes in for them.

You feel Foster is a "bruising RB"? You think his bruising style "softens" defenses?

 

[erikf08]

haha...no...but compared to Williams he is. I'm just trying to make sense out of the article. But the point is, you really can't compare the two backfields, other than they are both committees.

 

[Bankerguy]

I thought Barber looked a bit gased in the late 3rd and 4th Quarter. They should have experimented earlier in the year to see if Barber could should the full load.

Of course you did.

Apparently so did others?I admit JJ isn't as good as I thought he was. However, I am still right on (at this point) in saying Barber is NOT an everydown back. I've admitted when I am wrong...you should try it too.

I'm shaking my head in disbelief. It takes an unbelievable amount of gall for a person who has defended JJ for 2 years to imply that I owe apologies after Barber had 1 start. Particularly when Barber's 1 start was far more productive than anything Jones has done in recent memory. Gee, how could I be so wrong about Barber.

Yes I defended Jones and the 2 headed approach the coaching staff were taking. I did think Jones would perform better than he did and I also correctly told you all to not count on the same year from Barber from a TD stand point. I also told you to expect the rotation to continue and many of you didn't believe me. I will continue to stand by the fact Barber is not an everydown back. Not even in college at Minnesota was he the lead dog. He is a Great back and good for 13-15 carries a game to get optimal performance. Dallas will likely draft a speed type back in the 2nd to 4th rounds of this years draft.

 

[BigJim®]

This is all real enjoyable humor. If I understand what I'm reading here: When other NFL RBs have a tough half, something else is to blame. When Marion Barber has a tough half, it's because he was tired. You guys are acting like this is the first time ever that a running game was successful in the 1st half and stifled in the 2nd half. Let's not give NY any credit whatever we do here. Let's instead conclude that a 5.0 YPC runningback doesn't deserve to be a starter.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Foster is the "bruising" rb, not Williams so I guess that's where the "softening defenses" theory comes in for them.

You feel Foster is a "bruising RB"? You think his bruising style "softens" defenses?

Actually now I think the FO study was looking at theory that big RBs wear down the defense. They were comparing Bettis and Parker from several years ago, IIRC.

 

[Bankerguy]

Gosh...you are stubborn. Who said apologize? I said perhaps admit you were also wrong about Barber (Production and how he was used). We were both right and both wrong, however I don't suspect you admit to ever being wrong.

Yes, while Barber has great YPC.....it doesn't mean an automatic continuation if he carries the ball 12-15 times more a game. Certainly you can concede this point. It was obvious to me that Barber was mildly gased in the 3rd/4th quarter and his YPC showed it. It is what it is.

Mark my words....Barber whether the starter (Although I believe he starts next year) or not, will probably average 14-18 touches a game next year. They will draft someone to compliment him.

 

[BigJim®]

Gosh...you are stubborn. Who said apologize? I said perhaps admit you were also wrong about Barber (Production and how he was used). We were both right and both wrong, however I don't suspect you admit to ever being wrong.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I was wrong about Barber. Please elaborate.

 

[Ned]

For 2 years FFers endured the "Julius Jones is wearing down defenses for Marion Barber" hogwash. That hardly seems to be the case since Barber ran for over 100 yards in his first start without some less productive starter wearing down defenses for him. He's more productive, end of story.

find it a little ironic they lost the first time they gave him the majority of the carries?

 

[hauser42]

Giants did do a good job of making changes at half but Barber did not look like a guy ready to carry the load for a whole game. He has never carried the full load since high school so for him to get gassed at this level should not suprise anyone.

 

[Bankerguy]

Gosh...you are stubborn. Who said apologize? I said perhaps admit you were also wrong about Barber (Production and how he was used). We were both right and both wrong, however I don't suspect you admit to ever being wrong.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I was wrong about Barber. Please elaborate.

It's not even worth it....carry on Big Guy.

 

[BigJim®]

For 2 years FFers endured the "Julius Jones is wearing down defenses for Marion Barber" hogwash. That hardly seems to be the case since Barber ran for over 100 yards in his first start without some less productive starter wearing down defenses for him. He's more productive, end of story.

find it a little ironic they lost the first time they gave him the majority of the carries?

I trust by your use of "ironic" you mean how the playoff loss really had nothing to do with him starting or not, yet an important loss culminating from countless 2nd half miscues happened to occur simultaneously with him starting. Yes, I find that ironic.

 

[BigJim®]

Gosh...you are stubborn. Who said apologize? I said perhaps admit you were also wrong about Barber (Production and how he was used). We were both right and both wrong, however I don't suspect you admit to ever being wrong.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I was wrong about Barber. Please elaborate.

It's not even worth it....carry on Big Guy.

Ok, good. I was afraid you were going to try to use 11 second half carries to prove me 'wrong.' I was afraid you were going to use a 129 yard, 4.8 YPC performance to prove me 'wrong.' Hopefully that wasn't where you were going, because it's beyond outlandish.

 

[IndyHavoc]

Gosh...you are stubborn. Who said apologize? I said perhaps admit you were also wrong about Barber (Production and how he was used). We were both right and both wrong, however I don't suspect you admit to ever being wrong.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I was wrong about Barber. Please elaborate.

It's not even worth it....carry on Big Guy.

Ok, good. I was afraid you were going to try to use 11 second half carries to prove me 'wrong.' I was afraid you were going to use a 129 yard, 4.8 YPC performance to prove me 'wrong.' Hopefully that wasn't where you were going, because it's beyond outlandish.

Actually it's not....at all. The modus operandi for the Cowpokes has been a joint venture of both JJ and MB3 in the first half. MB3 therefore can really shine in the 2nd half of games; after the D is a bit gassed itself. In their first playoff game, MB3 went nutso the first half; gassing himself a bit (or equally to the D). Now 2nd half rolls around, and who do the Cowpokes turn to for that "spark" and serious tackle breaking brawn? Nope, not Julius "that's not my bag, Baby" Jones. Surely MB3 can be that guy? Well, he wasn't.It's only 1 data point, a ridiculously small sample size. Unfortunately, it's ridiculous to sit there and vehemently state that the above is NOT the case...the data, it....kinda....points....this....way (not yours).

 

[Bankerguy]

Gosh...you are stubborn. Who said apologize? I said perhaps admit you were also wrong about Barber (Production and how he was used). We were both right and both wrong, however I don't suspect you admit to ever being wrong.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I was wrong about Barber. Please elaborate.

It's not even worth it....carry on Big Guy.

Ok, good. I was afraid you were going to try to use 11 second half carries to prove me 'wrong.' I was afraid you were going to use a 129 yard, 4.8 YPC performance to prove me 'wrong.' Hopefully that wasn't where you were going, because it's beyond outlandish.

No that in it self proves nothing. However, it was obvious to me and other posters in this thread and many of Cowboy fans that barber was not explosive in the 3rd/4th quarters. Why is that then?

 

[Bankerguy]

For 2 years FFers endured the "Julius Jones is wearing down defenses for Marion Barber" hogwash. That hardly seems to be the case since Barber ran for over 100 yards in his first start without some less productive starter wearing down defenses for him. He's more productive, end of story.

find it a little ironic they lost the first time they gave him the majority of the carries?

I trust by your use of "ironic" you mean how the playoff loss really had nothing to do with him starting or not, yet an important loss culminating from countless 2nd half miscues happened to occur simultaneously with him starting. Yes, I find that ironic.

What do the miscues have to do with his production? Here are his 2nd half carries.3rd Quarter1-10-DAL 22 (14:55) 24-M.Barber right guard to DAL 24 for 2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora). 1-10-DAL 33 (13:48) 24-M.Barber right tackle to DAL 36 for 3 yards (31-A.Ross). 3-2-DAL 41 (12:23) (Shotgun) 24-M.Barber left end to NYG 49 for 10 yards (23-C.Webster; 28-G.Wilson). 1-10-NYG 49 (11:43) 24-M.Barber up the middle to NYG 44 for 5 yards (23-C.Webster). Started up the middle then breaking outside left. 2-5-NYG 44 (10:57) 24-M.Barber right end to NYG 46 for -2 yards (53-R.Torbor). 1-10-NYG 14 (7:56) 24-M.Barber right end to NYG 11 for 3 yards (31-A.Ross). Ross injured on the play 1-10-DAL 20 (3:07) 24-M.Barber left tackle to DAL 23 for 3 yards (92-M.Strahan). 4th Quarter1-10-DAL 44 (7:00) 24-M.Barber up the middle to DAL 48 for 4 yards (53-R.Torbor; 28-G.Wilson). 2-1-NYG 39 (1:50) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 24-M.Barber up the middle to NYG 40 for -1 yards (91-J.Tuck). Seem like all pretty normal situations to me and no different from his first half opportunities.

 

[BigJim®]

Gosh...you are stubborn. Who said apologize? I said perhaps admit you were also wrong about Barber (Production and how he was used). We were both right and both wrong, however I don't suspect you admit to ever being wrong.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I was wrong about Barber. Please elaborate.

It's not even worth it....carry on Big Guy.

Ok, good. I was afraid you were going to try to use 11 second half carries to prove me 'wrong.' I was afraid you were going to use a 129 yard, 4.8 YPC performance to prove me 'wrong.' Hopefully that wasn't where you were going, because it's beyond outlandish.

No that in it self proves nothing. However, it was obvious to me and other posters in this thread and many of Cowboy fans that barber was not explosive in the 3rd/4th quarters. Why is that then?

I think I've already answered that. First off, when a defense gives up 100 rushing yards in the first half, they are going to change what they are doing, and NY did. Primarily, I give the Giants credit. Second, Dallas was keeping drives alive with 3rd down success in the first half, and not doing anything in the second to maintain drives and get on a roll, whether due to dropped passes or penalties. It just wasn't working. Not only Barber, the entire offense was misfiring. But beyond that, even if one assumed that Barber got tired in the 2nd half, who's fault is that exactly? Hey, it's your coaching staff that decided to hold back MBIII for an entire season and then give him 27 carries in the playoffs. It's like training a boxer for 4 round bouts and then sticking him out there for 8 rounds. Not that I blame them when JJ comes in and contributes 2.7 YPC even with fresh legs. Nonetheless, a player is going to do what you prepare him to do. I don't think it's fair to draw conclusions about a player's stamina the first time he's given a certain workload. But again, as mentioned above the main problem the Cowboys had in the 2nd half was mistakes interrupting drives and not being able to get into a flow.

 

[BigJim®]

For 2 years FFers endured the "Julius Jones is wearing down defenses for Marion Barber" hogwash. That hardly seems to be the case since Barber ran for over 100 yards in his first start without some less productive starter wearing down defenses for him. He's more productive, end of story.

find it a little ironic they lost the first time they gave him the majority of the carries?

I trust by your use of "ironic" you mean how the playoff loss really had nothing to do with him starting or not, yet an important loss culminating from countless 2nd half miscues happened to occur simultaneously with him starting. Yes, I find that ironic.

What do the miscues have to do with his production? Here are his 2nd half carries.3rd Quarter

1-10-DAL 22 (14:55) 24-M.Barber right guard to DAL 24 for 2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).

1-10-DAL 33 (13:48) 24-M.Barber right tackle to DAL 36 for 3 yards (31-A.Ross).

3-2-DAL 41 (12:23) (Shotgun) 24-M.Barber left end to NYG 49 for 10 yards (23-C.Webster; 28-G.Wilson).

1-10-NYG 49 (11:43) 24-M.Barber up the middle to NYG 44 for 5 yards (23-C.Webster). Started up the middle then breaking outside left.

2-5-NYG 44 (10:57) 24-M.Barber right end to NYG 46 for -2 yards (53-R.Torbor).

1-10-NYG 14 (7:56) 24-M.Barber right end to NYG 11 for 3 yards (31-A.Ross). Ross injured on the play

1-10-DAL 20 (3:07) 24-M.Barber left tackle to DAL 23 for 3 yards (92-M.Strahan).

4th Quarter

1-10-DAL 44 (7:00) 24-M.Barber up the middle to DAL 48 for 4 yards (53-R.Torbor; 28-G.Wilson).

2-1-NYG 39 (1:50) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 24-M.Barber up the middle to NYG 40 for -1 yards (91-J.Tuck).

Seem like all pretty normal situations to me and no different from his first half opportunities.

My god, tell me this is schtick please. These numbers and letters "look no different than 1st half opportunities"?!? Gee whiz Bankerguy, you're right. Those look like wide open running lanes based on what I'm reading.

 

[cmv5]

So it is okay to refute 11 carries in the second half as being too small of a sample, but there is enough evidence of Deangelo Williams and Marion Barber as starters to prove there is no merit to second half success because of fresh legs?

 

[Bankerguy]

For 2 years FFers endured the "Julius Jones is wearing down defenses for Marion Barber" hogwash. That hardly seems to be the case since Barber ran for over 100 yards in his first start without some less productive starter wearing down defenses for him. He's more productive, end of story.

find it a little ironic they lost the first time they gave him the majority of the carries?

I trust by your use of "ironic" you mean how the playoff loss really had nothing to do with him starting or not, yet an important loss culminating from countless 2nd half miscues happened to occur simultaneously with him starting. Yes, I find that ironic.

What do the miscues have to do with his production? Here are his 2nd half carries.3rd Quarter

1-10-DAL 22 (14:55) 24-M.Barber right guard to DAL 24 for 2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).

1-10-DAL 33 (13:48) 24-M.Barber right tackle to DAL 36 for 3 yards (31-A.Ross).

3-2-DAL 41 (12:23) (Shotgun) 24-M.Barber left end to NYG 49 for 10 yards (23-C.Webster; 28-G.Wilson).

1-10-NYG 49 (11:43) 24-M.Barber up the middle to NYG 44 for 5 yards (23-C.Webster). Started up the middle then breaking outside left.

2-5-NYG 44 (10:57) 24-M.Barber right end to NYG 46 for -2 yards (53-R.Torbor).

1-10-NYG 14 (7:56) 24-M.Barber right end to NYG 11 for 3 yards (31-A.Ross). Ross injured on the play

1-10-DAL 20 (3:07) 24-M.Barber left tackle to DAL 23 for 3 yards (92-M.Strahan).

4th Quarter

1-10-DAL 44 (7:00) 24-M.Barber up the middle to DAL 48 for 4 yards (53-R.Torbor; 28-G.Wilson).

2-1-NYG 39 (1:50) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 24-M.Barber up the middle to NYG 40 for -1 yards (91-J.Tuck).

Seem like all pretty normal situations to me and no different from his first half opportunities.

My god, tell me this is schtick please. These numbers and letters "look no different than 1st half opportunities"?!? Gee whiz Bankerguy, you're right. Those look like wide open running lanes based on what I'm reading.

You keep twisting this to try and meet your theory. How many tackles did he break in the second half? The answer is not as many, how many guys did he run over, again not as many. There were holes in both halves. I didn't see drastic defensive changes other than NYFG were blitzing more on passing downs. Barber was a little bit gased. Why is this so impossible?

 

[BigJim®]

So it is okay to refute 11 carries in the second half as being too small of a sample, but there is enough evidence of Deangelo Williams and Marion Barber as starters to prove there is no merit to second half success because of fresh legs?

Don't let the MBIII hijack confuse you. This is not about 11 carries or fresh legs. The Charlotte observer declared that since Deangelo had more 2nd half success [5.5 YPC] than 1st half success [4.1 YPC], it was because the very bruising Deshaun Foster wore down defenses for him. Further, the Observer suggested keeping Foster as a starter based on that reasoning [despite the fact that Foster himself is not productive]. This, despite the fact they acknowledge that Deangelo was being given almost twice as many 2nd half carries with which to get into a flow. That seemed to be a more rational explanation for his 2nd half success. Certainly a better explanation than suggesting a slight guy like D.Foster is wearing defenses down. I only mentioned Dallas because we've heard the same statement over time regarding JJ wearing down defenses for MBIII, essentially pooh-poohing MBIII's continued above average production.MBIII and Deangelo are simply gifted RBs. They don't require going against 'punished' defense to produce, as they've both shown. Whether or not MBIII had fresh legs in the 2nd half of yesterday's game is irrelevant; he had plenty of success in the 1st half without needing another RB to wear down a defense for him. That's the point.

 

[Bankerguy]

So it is okay to refute 11 carries in the second half as being too small of a sample, but there is enough evidence of Deangelo Williams and Marion Barber as starters to prove there is no merit to second half success because of fresh legs?

Don't let the MBIII hijack confuse you. This is not about 11 carries or fresh legs. The Charlotte observer declared that since Deangelo had more 2nd half success [5.5 YPC] than 1st half success [4.1 YPC], it was because the very bruising Deshaun Foster wore down defenses for him. Further, the Observer suggested keeping Foster as a starter based on that reasoning [despite the fact that Foster himself is not productive]. This, despite the fact they acknowledge that Deangelo was being given almost twice as many 2nd half carries with which to get into a flow. That seemed to be a more rational explanation for his 2nd half success. Certainly a better explanation than suggesting a slight guy like D.Foster is wearing defenses down. I only mentioned Dallas because we've heard the same statement over time regarding JJ wearing down defenses for MBIII, essentially pooh-poohing MBIII's continued above average production.MBIII and Deangelo are simply gifted RBs. They don't require going against 'punished' defense to produce, as they've both shown. Whether or not MBIII had fresh legs in the 2nd half of yesterday's game is irrelevant; he had plenty of success in the 1st half without needing another RB to wear down a defense for him. That's the point.

Well many of us believe those backs and you could prabbly include MJD too, all excel in certain situations and have a ceiling for carries. No one for a second thinks Jones or DeShaun are bruisers, you are just exaggerating the term to make your point seem more valid.

 

[BigJim®]

You keep twisting this to try and meet your theory.

Wrong. Geez BG, re-read the thread title and the Charlote Observer article. This thread began about Deangelo Williams. Before you hijacked this thread beyond recognition, the point was Deangelo Williams, like Marion Barber, does not require some other underproductive RB to "wear down a defense" to make him productive. I could not care less whether or not Barber got winded in the 2nd half yesterday. The point initially was that the NYG defense was not 'worn down by JJ' yesterday when Barber ripped it for 100 first half yards... it was a fresh RB vs. fresh defense scenario. Whether or not your coaching staff had Barber prepared to carry the ball 30 times on 2 day notice is a completely different topic. I realize you'd rather it not be since you get off on Barber bashing, but it actually is off the initial topic. I watched the game and I've tried to play nice with your hijack by answering your questions explaining why Barber might have been less successful in the 2nd half, but this was all off the initial topic. As was mentioned by another guy in this thread, the example of a guy like Bettis wearing down an offense for Willie Parker perhaps has some legitimacy as a concept. Alstott/Dunn was maybe another. Notwithstanding that observation, it's a theory that doesn't extend to Julius Jones or Deshaun Foster punishing defenses. Barber's 1st half success yesterday was not because he is facing a defense worn down by JJ, and D.Williams success in week 17 was not because he is facing a defense worn down by Foster. My point is, it's more rational to conclude they are simply productive RBs than they are having production fall into their lap due to the work of some other guy. Case in point: What was Barber's YPC when JJ "wore down defenses" for him? 4.8 YPC. What was Barber's YPC yesterday without JJ wearing down defense for him yesterday? 4.8.

 

[BigJim®]

No one for a second thinks Jones or DeShaun are bruisers, you are just exaggerating the term to make your point seem more valid.

Whatever stalker. I quoted the article. It plainly read:

First, it was Foster's job to soften up opposing defenses. At 6-feet and 222 pounds, he is bigger than the 5-9, 217-pound Williams, and was called on to do most of that first-half pounding.

For the reading impaired, use of the word "first" means it is this author's primary argument for Foster to remain Carolina's starting RB. I believe the rest of the words pretty much speak for themselves. Don't accuse me of "exaggerating" to make my point seem valid when I'm specifically pasting an article that claims Deshaun Foster is the "pounding" RB who "softens up" defenses for Deangelo.

 

[switz]

No one for a second thinks Jones or DeShaun are bruisers, you are just exaggerating the term to make your point seem more valid.

Whatever stalker. I quoted the article. It plainly read:

First, it was Foster's job to soften up opposing defenses. At 6-feet and 222 pounds, he is bigger than the 5-9, 217-pound Williams, and was called on to do most of that first-half pounding.

For the reading impaired, use of the word "first" means it is this author's primary argument for Foster to remain Carolina's starting RB. I believe the rest of the words pretty much speak for themselves. Don't accuse me of "exaggerating" to make my point seem valid when I'm specifically pasting an article that claims Deshaun Foster is the "pounding" RB who "softens up" defenses for Deangelo.

Jim,I've watched a lot of DA and DS play this year and last, and a lot of DS play prior to that.Here's what I see.DA is not an every down back. He is exciting to watch, makes some big plays. But he hurts the team when he is the every down back, and he wears down quickly.Now I don't think DS has outperformed DA this year, well, early in the year I think he did, but not toward the end. Regardless, it is painfully obvious that DA is better when he comes off the bench in the 2nd half, than when he starts the game. Whatever you want to attribute that to is up to you.

 

[BigJim®]

Jim,I've watched a lot of DA and DS play this year and last, and a lot of DS play prior to that.Here's what I see.DA is not an every down back. He is exciting to watch, makes some big plays. But he hurts the team when he is the every down back, and he wears down quickly.Now I don't think DS has outperformed DA this year, well, early in the year I think he did, but not toward the end. Regardless, it is painfully obvious that DA is better when he comes off the bench in the 2nd half, than when he starts the game. Whatever you want to attribute that to is up to you.

That's fair. The Charlotte Observer, in my humble opinion, is very anti DW and pro DF. I'm not sure if that is in deference to Fox or what. I see DW make some runs and think of Emmitt Smith. When he shoots a gap, he's just gone. I also think he'll be a very capable receiver on screens, which indicates he could get 3rd down opportunities. 215 is by no means undersized or worth classifying one as scatback [common complaint of DW]. Something tells me Deangelo will in fact be given the opportunity finally next year, and will run away with the opportunity. Time will definitely tell. The good news is once DW gets the job, Fox will stand by him like DW has compromising Polaroids of Fox. That's how I believe it works in Carolina. At some point, some genius will start up a DW bandwagon thread and I will do what I did last year: Predict huge numbers for DW.

 

[Bri]

IF you remember the older debates then please answer this Q-What's to say you guys aren't talking about William Green and Lee Suggs?

 

[VaCatFan]

Jim,I've watched a lot of DA and DS play this year and last, and a lot of DS play prior to that.Here's what I see.DA is not an every down back. He is exciting to watch, makes some big plays. But he hurts the team when he is the every down back, and he wears down quickly.Now I don't think DS has outperformed DA this year, well, early in the year I think he did, but not toward the end. Regardless, it is painfully obvious that DA is better when he comes off the bench in the 2nd half, than when he starts the game. Whatever you want to attribute that to is up to you.

That's fair. The Charlotte Observer, in my humble opinion, is very anti DW and pro DF. I'm not sure if that is in deference to Fox or what. I see DW make some runs and think of Emmitt Smith. When he shoots a gap, he's just gone. I also think he'll be a very capable receiver on screens, which indicates he could get 3rd down opportunities. 215 is by no means undersized or worth classifying one as scatback [common complaint of DW]. Something tells me Deangelo will in fact be given the opportunity finally next year, and will run away with the opportunity. Time will definitely tell. The good news is once DW gets the job, Fox will stand by him like DW has compromising Polaroids of Fox. That's how I believe it works in Carolina. At some point, some genius will start up a DW bandwagon thread and I will do what I did last year: Predict huge numbers for DW.

Here are my thoughts on the Deshaun/DeAngelo debacle and debacle is all I can call it. DeShaun is a grinder. He doesn't have breakaway speed. He's 3 yards and a cloud of dust and periodically breaks the 5-15 yard run. DeAngelo is the burner. In the 2nd half of games when defenses are tired, he eats them up. I believe, read that again, I believe that DeAngelo can be the primary ball carrier for Carolina if he learns a few things.1. Go FORWARD! He's hit so many times dancing around in the backfield that half of his runs are negative or for 0 yards. Barry Sanderish without all the flash. 2. Quit trying to take everything OUTSIDE! He could get away with that at Memphis as it's pretty well understood that the speed of the college game doesn't equate to the pros. When he's run well, he's gotten small, gotten through a hole and run away from defenses. He's gotta keep doing that.3. Learn blitz pickup. He gets eaten pretty badly during blitz pickups. He's not dropping his hips and getting under defenders. They're running him over. This is something that can be learned and with time, I think he'll get better. If he doesn't, he'll always be a platoon player, which is a shame because if he becomes an all around player, I think he could be something special. It almost seems like he's trying to get by on talent and speed alone. Not that I haven't heard he's a hard worker, but I expect next year will be the deciding year. Carolina wants a grind it out offense. Richardson got together with Fox and Hurney and talked about how to get back to their previous success. In the past, that was with Stephen Davis (grinder) and Foster (COP/3rd down back). It would not surprise me in the least to see them take a larger back somewhere from the 3rd round back and try to get back to that past success.