Another school shooting (1 Viewer)

[Henry Ford]

If 1/10 office buildings have air conditioning, and you say 1/10 office workers have air conditioning, you're assuming around the same number of workers per office. That's all that's going on with the "students per school" issue. Yes, it's going to be incorrect, but it's a reasonable estimate.

I follow you now.

Well ... the question for me then becomes "What percentage of students will experience Columbine/Sandy Hook at their K-12 schools?". If non-lethal shootings, non-school-day shootings, non-K-12 institutions, etc. are thrown in, that kind of games the story, IMHO.

Here in the New Orleans area, in some of the high schools, a student discharging a weapon at school without a fatality had little more effect on most people than a serious fistfight. Yet such incidents count the same as Columbine or Virginia Tech in the basic data to your math.

Well, either that hasn't happened in the last year and a half or it failed to make the list, too. No high school shootings in Louisiana are listed.

 

[Henry Ford]

And some of those Elementary, Secondary, K-12, and Colleges feed into each other. So really, if it's 1/163... your kid has up to 4 chances to attend one of the schools that has a shooting. So yeah, we'll skip students. One in every 163 schools will have a shooting during the time a kid is in school.

Didn't check -- did you account for summers off? Though summer-school shootings have happened.

That's the thing - even with summers off, we're averaging one per week for the year.

 

[jonessed]

So. Approximately 132,000 K-12 schools in the United States. Roughly one school shooting (of some kind) per week since Newtown.

If those numbers hold, should be about 620 school shootings between the day your kid starts school and the day the kid ends school. So roughly one out of every 210 kids should have been in a school where there was a shooting by the time he/she graduates high school?Am I doing that math right?

You can't extrapolate to this. Assuming your populations are correct the rest may work.

Yeah, it's obviously averaging out school enrollment. It's just a much bigger figure than I'd like to see.

I think something else is amiss. You are basically saying almost every school in the country will have a shooting over that timeframe.

No, I'm saying 1 out of every 210 will. That's half of one percent.

Thanks. I was reading it wrong.

 

[Doug B]

Well, either that hasn't happened in the last year and a half or it failed to make the list, too. No high school shootings in Louisiana are listed.

My notebook is old -- high schools in New Orleans now have police officers on premises, plus other countermeasures. I think that's all been in reaction to incidents like these.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

We have to register our cars. Why can't we register our guns again?

Because the NRA types are terrified that it will lead to government seizure of all guns and the imposition of a dictatorship (which only private firearms can prevent.)More seriously, universal gun registration and background checks would, IMO have a significant impact on reducing gun crime in general and I am in favor of them. Others believe that the impact will be minimal and the costs too great, and that is an ongoing argument we have had in this forum for years. However, even if we did have universal registration, I don't believe it would have any real effect on this sort of school shooting.

It would have none. Why even bring it up?

Well, gee. This guy from the internet says it won't work. #### it, then! Until next week's school shooting. Yeah man, see you there!!!

Almost all of these shootings are done by minors who don't even legally possess the weapons they use. What good would registering them do?

What good does not registering them do? Is it so hard to fathom that tighter restrictions on guns might lessen the amount of these events? Will it completely eradicate them? Obviously, no. Will it help? Let's give it a shot, and find out. Just saying "What good will that do?" sure as #### aint helping.

Is it so hard to fathom that people using guns illegally will continue to use them illegally regardless of their registered status? The guns used in Sandy Hook were purchased legally and registered. That didn't stop ####.

So why have any laws at all? Why have traffic laws? People are just going to break them. Let's save everybody a lot of time and just do away with all traffic laws. Your argument is ignorant.

 

[Spanky267]

Pretty sure the 74 school shootings meme has been debunked.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/06/10/wow-journalist-attempts-to-debunk-anti-gun-groups-list-of-school-shootings-in-america-since-sandy-hook-heres-what-he-found/

Some of these shootings took place near a school or long after school hours. Many were gang related. Some were suicides by students or adults, there were no other victims in those cases. At least one invovled a gang member who accidentally shot herself. Some "school" shootings happened off campus, how that can be classified as a school shooting is beyond me. One was a case of self defense.

It appears that many of these so called school shootings were gang related events that began off campus and targeted speicific individuals on campus. Some were suicides in which only the person killing themself was the "victim". These are hardly the same a the Sandy Hook, Columbine or Virginia Tech tragedies. But the use of the term "school shooting" carries the conotation that this was a Sandy Hook like event.

Some of these events could have happened anywhere. For example the Feb 7 2013 shooting in Ft. Pierce. A criminal and police exchange shots in the parking lot of Indian River Community College. A student is caught in the cross fire and injured.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2013/feb/07/shooting-reported-indian-river-state-college/

There is no mention in the story of who accidentally shot the student, the gunman or police.

19 year old shot at 9pm in a field behind Hillside Elementary in San Leandro CA. This is listed as a School shooting? This from the story on the shooting is also interesting

"He was found on the school grounds, but again we don't want to assume for 100 percent that that is exactly where th crime occurred because he might have run to that spot," Sheriff's Department spokesperson J.D. Nelson said."

Student shot herself??? This is the same as Sandy Hook?

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/student-wounded-at-grady-high/nWbhG/

The April 13th shootng at Elizabeth City State University occurred during a Festival, open to the public, that was being held on Campus. My alma mater hosts public events on campus. If a shooting occurs during such an event should it be considered a school shooting even if the shooting was centered more around the event than the location of the event?

April 16th 2013 at Stillman College. A shooting of one man by another over an alleged gambling debt. Is it remarkable because it happened on a school campus?

Clarksville, TN August 15th 2013

A body found at 6am in a high school parking lot. Shooting believed to have occured aroung 2am. This is a school shooting?

http://www.wkrn.com/story/23144346/body-found-in-clarksville

I could go on. This "list" of school shootings was compiled for shock value only. Are there really school shootings? Absolutely. Do too many of them occur? Yes. Does hyperbole like that put forth by this group help solve the real problem? I dont think so.

 

[Doug B]

That's the thing - even with summers off, we're averaging one per week for the year.

OK, but if they're not Coumbines or Sandy Hooks ... at some point, you have to get down to the question of "exactly one what per week?".

 

[KCitons]

Well, either that hasn't happened in the last year and a half or it failed to make the list, too. No high school shootings in Louisiana are listed.

My notebook is old -- high schools in New Orleans now have police officers on premises, plus other countermeasures. I think that's all been in reaction to incidents like these.

This is part of the problem. Don't take this personally, I respect both of your opinions.

But, when it comes to solving a problem in this country, progress is bogged down by trying to nail down statistics. I understand movement doesn't happen because of one lone incident, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out we've moved past an acceptable level in regards to mass shootings in this country. Whether it's schools, malls, or wherever.

 

[Henry Ford]

Pretty sure the 74 school shootings meme has been debunked.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/06/10/wow-journalist-attempts-to-debunk-anti-gun-groups-list-of-school-shootings-in-america-since-sandy-hook-heres-what-he-found/

Some of these shootings took place near a school or long after school hours. Many were gang related. Some were suicides by students or adults, there were no other victims in those cases. At least one invovled a gang member who accidentally shot herself. Some "school" shootings happened off campus, how that can be classified as a school shooting is beyond me. One was a case of self defense.

It appears that many of these so called school shootings were gang related events that began off campus and targeted speicific individuals on campus. Some were suicides in which only the person killing themself was the "victim". These are hardly the same a the Sandy Hook, Columbine or Virginia Tech tragedies. But the use of the term "school shooting" carries the conotation that this was a Sandy Hook like event.

Some of these events could have happened anywhere. For example the Feb 7 2013 shooting in Ft. Pierce. A criminal and police exchange shots in the parking lot of Indian River Community College. A student is caught in the cross fire and injured.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2013/feb/07/shooting-reported-indian-river-state-college/

There is no mention in the story of who accidentally shot the student, the gunman or police.

19 year old shot at 9pm in a field behind Hillside Elementary in San Leandro CA. This is listed as a School shooting? This from the story on the shooting is also interesting

"He was found on the school grounds, but again we don't want to assume for 100 percent that that is exactly where th crime occurred because he might have run to that spot," Sheriff's Department spokesperson J.D. Nelson said."

Student shot herself??? This is the same as Sandy Hook?

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/student-wounded-at-grady-high/nWbhG/

The April 13th shootng at Elizabeth City State University occurred during a Festival, open to the public, that was being held on Campus. My alma mater hosts public events on campus. If a shooting occurs during such an event should it be considered a school shooting even if the shooting was centered more around the event than the location of the event?

April 16th 2013 at Stillman College. A shooting of one man by another over an alleged gambling debt. Is it remarkable because it happened on a school campus?

Clarksville, TN August 15th 2013

A body found at 6am in a high school parking lot. Shooting believed to have occured aroung 2am. This is a school shooting?

http://www.wkrn.com/story/23144346/body-found-in-clarksville

I could go on. This "list" of school shootings was compiled for shock value only. Are there really school shootings? Absolutely. Do too many of them occur? Yes. Does hyperbole like that put forth by this group help solve the real problem? I dont think so.

I don't believe I said anywhere that it's "the same as Sandy Hook." It's a shooting at a school. Do "Sandy Hook" incidents concern me more than gang battles with guns, or gambling debt shootings? Yes. But that doesn't mean I'm unconcerned about kids getting caught in the crossfire. Are half of those on the list up to your criteria? A third? A quarter? Come up with a number.

 

[Henry Ford]

Well, either that hasn't happened in the last year and a half or it failed to make the list, too. No high school shootings in Louisiana are listed.

My notebook is old -- high schools in New Orleans now have police officers on premises, plus other countermeasures. I think that's all been in reaction to incidents like these.

This is part of the problem. Don't take this personally, I respect both of your opinions.

But, when it comes to solving a problem in this country, progress is bogged down by trying to nail down statistics. I understand movement doesn't happen because of one lone incident, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out we've moved past an acceptable level in regards to mass shootings in this country. Whether it's schools, malls, or wherever.

Well, you know. There have only been 117 mass shootings in the U.S. since New Year's Eve.

 

[jonessed]

Well, either that hasn't happened in the last year and a half or it failed to make the list, too. No high school shootings in Louisiana are listed.

My notebook is old -- high schools in New Orleans now have police officers on premises, plus other countermeasures. I think that's all been in reaction to incidents like these.

This is part of the problem. Don't take this personally, I respect both of your opinions. But, when it comes to solving a problem in this country, progress is bogged down by trying to nail down statistics. I understand movement doesn't happen because of one lone incident, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out we've moved past an acceptable level in regards to mass shootings in this country. Whether it's schools, malls, or wherever.

What is the acceptable level and when did we move past it?

 

[KCitons]

Well, either that hasn't happened in the last year and a half or it failed to make the list, too. No high school shootings in Louisiana are listed.

My notebook is old -- high schools in New Orleans now have police officers on premises, plus other countermeasures. I think that's all been in reaction to incidents like these.

This is part of the problem. Don't take this personally, I respect both of your opinions. But, when it comes to solving a problem in this country, progress is bogged down by trying to nail down statistics. I understand movement doesn't happen because of one lone incident, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out we've moved past an acceptable level in regards to mass shootings in this country. Whether it's schools, malls, or wherever.

What is the acceptable level and when did we move past it?

I think we passed it a long time ago. But for those even teetering on the line, Sandy Hook pushed them past it.

 

[Billy Bats]

Generation Rx doesn't help either.

Bingo

Yes, children are over medicated unnecessarily. I remember a few years ago too many children were being diagnosed as bipolar, then too many as ADHD, then depressed in other ways. Doctors need to stop throwing medicine at these children. It damn sure could have a big effect on behavior to cause these kids to start shooing up schools. All kids from all generations have had to deal with life's problems, the difference being past generations didn't over medicate.

A lot falls on lazy parenting too, IMO. Oh no little Johnny is acting up, he must have ADHD, let's get him some pills. Instead of actually raising a kid by parenting them, even adults are looking for the easy way out. And I'm not condemning all cases, but I've seen this particular type of parent.

 

[humpback]

We have to register our cars. Why can't we register our guns again?

Because the NRA types are terrified that it will lead to government seizure of all guns and the imposition of a dictatorship (which only private firearms can prevent.)More seriously, universal gun registration and background checks would, IMO have a significant impact on reducing gun crime in general and I am in favor of them. Others believe that the impact will be minimal and the costs too great, and that is an ongoing argument we have had in this forum for years. However, even if we did have universal registration, I don't believe it would have any real effect on this sort of school shooting.

It would have none. Why even bring it up?

Well, gee. This guy from the internet says it won't work. #### it, then! Until next week's school shooting. Yeah man, see you there!!!

Almost all of these shootings are done by minors who don't even legally possess the weapons they use. What good would registering them do?

What good does not registering them do? Is it so hard to fathom that tighter restrictions on guns might lessen the amount of these events? Will it completely eradicate them? Obviously, no. Will it help? Let's give it a shot, and find out. Just saying "What good will that do?" sure as #### aint helping.

Is it so hard to fathom that people using guns illegally will continue to use them illegally regardless of their registered status? The guns used in Sandy Hook were purchased legally and registered. That didn't stop ####.

So why have any laws at all? Why have traffic laws? People are just going to break them. Let's save everybody a lot of time and just do away with all traffic laws. Your argument is ignorant.

You must understand just how much political capital it would take to enact legislation like this. Wouldn't you rather save it for something that would be more effective in actually addressing the problem?

 

[17seconds]

I'd like to stop a random wacko in the suburbs from grabbing one of the 300+ million guns from his relative or neighbor and killing a bunch of people on a whim. I don't care much about whether it is on school grounds, in a theater, a restaurant, or at the park.

Me too.How?

Lose the idea that every citizen is entitled to an armory of guns and assault rifles. Legislate accordingly.

Establish a nationwide program for better mental health support in high schools so troubled teenagers can be identified and helped.

Your second idea is worthwhile, though in still skeptical that it will prevent this sort of horror. But it's a good idea anyhow.Does your first idea involve repealing the 2nd Amendment? Because I don't think that would be realistic.

I don't think you'd have to repeal the 2nd Amendment. The far left wants to repeal it but I think the main issue is its interpretation, particularly of the use of the term "militia".

Oh, and if you think you are going to get a specific solution from me or anyone else here, good luck. I'm giving my opinion on the direction we should be headed in order to begin reducing mass violence with guns.

When this is the ultimate objective it's little wonder why the NRA fights things like national registration.

The sole objective of the NRA is to proliferate guns and the gun industry. Even their name will tell you that. They don't call themselves an association of gun owners. They are an association geared around a product and they run themselves as such. Even their "community involvement" is merely to teach the use of that product so it can be effectively proliferated.

Of course they don't want registration, fewer people would get their hands on the product.

They don't want registration because people like you will try to use it to strip gun rights.

No, we'll use it to have registration.

 

[Doug B]

But, when it comes to solving a problem in this country, progress is bogged down by trying to nail down statistics. I understand movement doesn't happen because of one lone incident, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out we've moved past an acceptable level in regards to mass shootings in this country. Whether it's schools, malls, or wherever.

I think you're right.

I don't think Henry Ford and I are going back-&-forth (not even debating IMHO) over the existence of a problem. We are hashing out perceived severity and level of true risk for individual students on average.

It's really "angels on the head of a pin" tangents from the both of us, I think. More academic than anything.

 

[KCitons]

But, when it comes to solving a problem in this country, progress is bogged down by trying to nail down statistics. I understand movement doesn't happen because of one lone incident, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out we've moved past an acceptable level in regards to mass shootings in this country. Whether it's schools, malls, or wherever.

I think you're right.

I don't think Henry Ford and I are going back-&-forth (not even debating IMHO) over the existence of a problem. We are hashing out perceived severity and level of true risk for individual students on average.

It's really "angels on the head of a pin" tangents from the both of us, I think. More academic than anything.

I don't blame you guys, even for the back & forth. Just using it as an example of how slow things move in this country. If this is how it plays out on message board, imagine how it plays out in Congress.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

We have to register our cars. Why can't we register our guns again?

Because the NRA types are terrified that it will lead to government seizure of all guns and the imposition of a dictatorship (which only private firearms can prevent.)More seriously, universal gun registration and background checks would, IMO have a significant impact on reducing gun crime in general and I am in favor of them. Others believe that the impact will be minimal and the costs too great, and that is an ongoing argument we have had in this forum for years. However, even if we did have universal registration, I don't believe it would have any real effect on this sort of school shooting.

It would have none. Why even bring it up?

Well, gee. This guy from the internet says it won't work. #### it, then! Until next week's school shooting. Yeah man, see you there!!!

Almost all of these shootings are done by minors who don't even legally possess the weapons they use. What good would registering them do?

What good does not registering them do? Is it so hard to fathom that tighter restrictions on guns might lessen the amount of these events? Will it completely eradicate them? Obviously, no. Will it help? Let's give it a shot, and find out. Just saying "What good will that do?" sure as #### aint helping.

Is it so hard to fathom that people using guns illegally will continue to use them illegally regardless of their registered status? The guns used in Sandy Hook were purchased legally and registered. That didn't stop ####.

So why have any laws at all? Why have traffic laws? People are just going to break them. Let's save everybody a lot of time and just do away with all traffic laws. Your argument is ignorant.

You must understand just how much political capital it would take to enact legislation like this. Wouldn't you rather save it for something that would be more effective in actually addressing the problem?

I understand. My point is we have officially moved past the point where we can continue to do nothing.

 

[[icon]]

No, we'll use it to have registration.

To those calling for universal gun registration:

1) What precisely do you hope to accomplish by requiring gun registration over the existing system and how do you plan to accomplish it?

2) What is a reasonable budget to achieve this system? Where does this money come from?

3) What level of accuracy would you consider acceptable within this government run system?

4) How do you plan to address inaccuracy in the system? (ie person is killed with gun that was reported stolen, former owner properly reported theft but wasn't accurate in database due to clerical/technical error and that individual is wrongly arrested/harassed) Who picks up the tab for resulting lawsuits?

5) How do you plan to enforce this requirement? (see CT registration failures)

6) what does this do to curb the vast majority of crimes which are committed using weapons that, under this law, would not have been registered to the offender

Spoiler

• 39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

• 39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

• 0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

• 1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

• 3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

• 8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz34Lz2wT3n

 

[jonessed]

We have to register our cars. Why can't we register our guns again?

Because the NRA types are terrified that it will lead to government seizure of all guns and the imposition of a dictatorship (which only private firearms can prevent.)More seriously, universal gun registration and background checks would, IMO have a significant impact on reducing gun crime in general and I am in favor of them. Others believe that the impact will be minimal and the costs too great, and that is an ongoing argument we have had in this forum for years. However, even if we did have universal registration, I don't believe it would have any real effect on this sort of school shooting.

It would have none. Why even bring it up?

Well, gee. This guy from the internet says it won't work. #### it, then! Until next week's school shooting. Yeah man, see you there!!!

Almost all of these shootings are done by minors who don't even legally possess the weapons they use. What good would registering them do?

What good does not registering them do? Is it so hard to fathom that tighter restrictions on guns might lessen the amount of these events? Will it completely eradicate them? Obviously, no. Will it help? Let's give it a shot, and find out. Just saying "What good will that do?" sure as #### aint helping.

Is it so hard to fathom that people using guns illegally will continue to use them illegally regardless of their registered status? The guns used in Sandy Hook were purchased legally and registered. That didn't stop ####.

So why have any laws at all? Why have traffic laws? People are just going to break them. Let's save everybody a lot of time and just do away with all traffic laws. Your argument is ignorant.

You must understand just how much political capital it would take to enact legislation like this. Wouldn't you rather save it for something that would be more effective in actually addressing the problem?

I understand. My point is we have officially moved past the point where we can continue to do nothing.

The number of mass shootings and the deaths associated with them has varied very little over the last 40 years. With population growth you could argue it's even decreased on a per capita basis.

If we want to try to do something about it that's fine, but we haven't hit some kind of magic inflection point.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

 

[StrikeS2k]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

Yes, obviously.

 

[humpback]

What good does not registering them do? Is it so hard to fathom that tighter restrictions on guns might lessen the amount of these events? Will it completely eradicate them? Obviously, no. Will it help? Let's give it a shot, and find out. Just saying "What good will that do?" sure as #### aint helping.

Is it so hard to fathom that people using guns illegally will continue to use them illegally regardless of their registered status? The guns used in Sandy Hook were purchased legally and registered. That didn't stop ####.

So why have any laws at all? Why have traffic laws? People are just going to break them. Let's save everybody a lot of time and just do away with all traffic laws. Your argument is ignorant.

You must understand just how much political capital it would take to enact legislation like this. Wouldn't you rather save it for something that would be more effective in actually addressing the problem?

I understand. My point is we have officially moved past the point where we can continue to do nothing.

I agree, but the same point holds true- if we go through everything that it's going to take in order to just do "something", and it turns out to be ineffective (or worse), it's going to make it that much more difficult to pass something that actually could help.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying any particular idea would be ineffective, just that doing something for the sake of doing something isn't a good way to go about it.

 

[KCitons]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

I get what you are trying to say. The problem I have with any regulation, is that it needs to be effective. I don't want to see the same thing that happened with airport security after 9/11. The only people that that were effected by the legislation were law abiding citizens.

I've said before that I would give up all my guns tomorrow, if there was a guarantee it would stop the violence. Unfortunately, I get he feeling, the only thing that would change would be me owning guns.

 

[General Malaise]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

Yes, obviously.

Something is going to change, like it or not. The country is changing. Attitudes are changing. Gun laws will be changing.

Wouldn't be THAT hard to ask a gun lover for his/her license before buying ammunition of any kind. Wouldn't be THAT hard to run a medical background check on people wanting to buy guns.

Another child is dead now because the wrong person had easy access to a gun. Neat.

 

[daddo39]

Generation Rx doesn't help either.

Bingo

Yes, children are over medicated unnecessarily. I remember a few years ago too many children were being diagnosed as bipolar, then too many as ADHD, then depressed in other ways. Doctors need to stop throwing medicine at these children. It damn sure could have a big effect on behavior to cause these kids to start shooing up schools. All kids from all generations have had to deal with life's problems, the difference being past generations didn't over medicate.

Interesting article on the subject

http://www.sott.net/article/279716-Nearly-every-mass-shooting-in-the-last-20-years-shares-one-thing-in-common-and-it-isnt-weapons

 

[[icon]]

No, we'll use it to have registration.

To those calling for universal gun registration:

1) What precisely do you hope to accomplish by requiring gun registration over the existing system and how do you plan to accomplish it?

2) What is a reasonable budget to achieve this system? Where does this money come from?

3) What level of accuracy would you consider acceptable within this government run system?

4) How do you plan to address inaccuracy in the system? (ie person is killed with gun that was reported stolen, former owner properly reported theft but wasn't accurate in database due to clerical/technical error and that individual is wrongly arrested/harassed) Who picks up the tab for resulting lawsuits?

5) How do you plan to enforce this requirement? (see CT registration failures)

6) what does this do to curb the vast majority of crimes which are committed using weapons that, under this law, would not have been registered to the offender

Spoiler

• 39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

• 39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

• 0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

• 1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

• 3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

• 8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz34Lz2wT3n

Bump

 

[General Malaise]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

I get what you are trying to say. The problem I have with any regulation, is that it needs to be effective. I don't want to see the same thing that happened with airport security after 9/11. The only people that that were effected by the legislation were law abiding citizens.

I've said before that I would give up all my guns tomorrow, if there was a guarantee it would stop the violence. Unfortunately, I get he feeling, the only thing that would change would be me owning guns.

There hasn't been another large scale attack since 9/11 due to a hijacked airline. Perhaps the changes to airport security have been a good thing. Sorry you've been inconvenienced trying to board your plane. We're trying to make our country safer.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

The number of mass shootings and the deaths associated with them has varied very little over the last 40 years. With population growth you could argue it's even decreased on a per capita basis.If we want to try to do something about it that's fine, but we haven't hit some kind of magic inflection point.

Let's just continue to do nothing, then, shall we?

 

[General Malaise]

The number of mass shootings and the deaths associated with them has varied very little over the last 40 years. With population growth you could argue it's even decreased on a per capita basis.If we want to try to do something about it that's fine, but we haven't hit some kind of magic inflection point.

Let's just continue to do nothing, then, shall we?

Now now...we don't want to inconvenience gun guy.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

What good does not registering them do? Is it so hard to fathom that tighter restrictions on guns might lessen the amount of these events? Will it completely eradicate them? Obviously, no. Will it help? Let's give it a shot, and find out. Just saying "What good will that do?" sure as #### aint helping.

Is it so hard to fathom that people using guns illegally will continue to use them illegally regardless of their registered status? The guns used in Sandy Hook were purchased legally and registered. That didn't stop ####.

So why have any laws at all? Why have traffic laws? People are just going to break them. Let's save everybody a lot of time and just do away with all traffic laws. Your argument is ignorant.

You must understand just how much political capital it would take to enact legislation like this. Wouldn't you rather save it for something that would be more effective in actually addressing the problem?

I understand. My point is we have officially moved past the point where we can continue to do nothing.

I agree, but the same point holds true- if we go through everything that it's going to take in order to just do "something", and it turns out to be ineffective (or worse), it's going to make it that much more difficult to pass something that actually could help.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying any particular idea would be ineffective, just that doing something for the sake of doing something isn't a good way to go about it.

I see your point, but please enlighten me as to how it can get worse.

 

[Henry Ford]

The number of mass shootings and the deaths associated with them has varied very little over the last 40 years. With population growth you could argue it's even decreased on a per capita basis.If we want to try to do something about it that's fine, but we haven't hit some kind of magic inflection point.

Going to need you to show your work on this one, if you don't mind.

 

[Sarnoff]

Pretty sure the 74 school shootings meme has been debunked.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/06/10/wow-journalist-attempts-to-debunk-anti-gun-groups-list-of-school-shootings-in-america-since-sandy-hook-heres-what-he-found/

Some of these shootings took place near a school or long after school hours. Many were gang related. Some were suicides by students or adults, there were no other victims in those cases. At least one invovled a gang member who accidentally shot herself. Some "school" shootings happened off campus, how that can be classified as a school shooting is beyond me. One was a case of self defense.

It appears that many of these so called school shootings were gang related events that began off campus and targeted speicific individuals on campus. Some were suicides in which only the person killing themself was the "victim". These are hardly the same a the Sandy Hook, Columbine or Virginia Tech tragedies. But the use of the term "school shooting" carries the conotation that this was a Sandy Hook like event.

Some of these events could have happened anywhere. For example the Feb 7 2013 shooting in Ft. Pierce. A criminal and police exchange shots in the parking lot of Indian River Community College. A student is caught in the cross fire and injured.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2013/feb/07/shooting-reported-indian-river-state-college/

There is no mention in the story of who accidentally shot the student, the gunman or police.

19 year old shot at 9pm in a field behind Hillside Elementary in San Leandro CA. This is listed as a School shooting? This from the story on the shooting is also interesting

"He was found on the school grounds, but again we don't want to assume for 100 percent that that is exactly where th crime occurred because he might have run to that spot," Sheriff's Department spokesperson J.D. Nelson said."

Student shot herself??? This is the same as Sandy Hook?

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/student-wounded-at-grady-high/nWbhG/

The April 13th shootng at Elizabeth City State University occurred during a Festival, open to the public, that was being held on Campus. My alma mater hosts public events on campus. If a shooting occurs during such an event should it be considered a school shooting even if the shooting was centered more around the event than the location of the event?

April 16th 2013 at Stillman College. A shooting of one man by another over an alleged gambling debt. Is it remarkable because it happened on a school campus?

Clarksville, TN August 15th 2013

A body found at 6am in a high school parking lot. Shooting believed to have occured aroung 2am. This is a school shooting?

http://www.wkrn.com/story/23144346/body-found-in-clarksville

I could go on. This "list" of school shootings was compiled for shock value only. Are there really school shootings? Absolutely. Do too many of them occur? Yes. Does hyperbole like that put forth by this group help solve the real problem? I dont think so.

I don't believe I said anywhere that it's "the same as Sandy Hook." It's a shooting at a school. Do "Sandy Hook" incidents concern me more than gang battles with guns, or gambling debt shootings? Yes. But that doesn't mean I'm unconcerned about kids getting caught in the crossfire. Are half of those on the list up to your criteria? A third? A quarter? Come up with a number.

If you're concerned about "kids getting caught in the crossfire", the list should be reduced to the kinds of incidents in which that could happen. Shootings, on school property, during school hours, in the proximity of students. So, 'gunman comes on to campus, starts shooting the place up' counts, but 'teacher commits suicide with gun in parking lot at 2 AM' doesn't. Both get the "Another School Shooting!" media label but only one is of concern.

Then, if you're worried about averages, you should also examine other parcels of land of similar size. Like, is a 20-acre campus more dangerous than any 20 acres of land in the surrounding city over the same period of time? Upthread the stat was "1 out of 163 schools" will have some kind of gunfire incident over a student's 12-year career, but, is that high or low? Let's say in the suburbs, there are 4 homes per acre. So 80 homes could fit in the area of one 20-acre campus. 1 in 163 schools would then be like 1 in 13,000 homes. Will 1 in 13,000 homes be the location of a gun-related crime in the same 12-year period?

 

[17seconds]

No, we'll use it to have registration.

To those calling for universal gun registration:

1) What precisely do you hope to accomplish by requiring gun registration over the existing system and how do you plan to accomplish it?

2) What is a reasonable budget to achieve this system? Where does this money come from?

3) What level of accuracy would you consider acceptable within this government run system?

4) How do you plan to address inaccuracy in the system? (ie person is killed with gun that was reported stolen, former owner properly reported theft but wasn't accurate in database due to clerical/technical error and that individual is wrongly arrested/harassed) Who picks up the tab for resulting lawsuits?

5) How do you plan to enforce this requirement? (see CT registration failures)

6) what does this do to curb the vast majority of crimes which are committed using weapons that, under this law, would not have been registered to the offender

Spoiler

• 39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

• 39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

• 0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

• 1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

• 3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

• 8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz34Lz2wT3n

Spoiler

Bump

We get it, you need someone to lay out the answers for everything that would happen during a lawmaking process before you will consider an idea.

Do you have the answers for all of these for pitbull registration? I doubt it. Do you think it makes sense to register pitbulls?

 

[KCitons]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

I get what you are trying to say. The problem I have with any regulation, is that it needs to be effective. I don't want to see the same thing that happened with airport security after 9/11. The only people that that were effected by the legislation were law abiding citizens.

I've said before that I would give up all my guns tomorrow, if there was a guarantee it would stop the violence. Unfortunately, I get he feeling, the only thing that would change would be me owning guns.

There hasn't been another large scale attack since 9/11 due to a hijacked airline. Perhaps the changes to airport security have been a good thing. Sorry you've been inconvenienced trying to board your plane. We're trying to make our country safer.

yeah, that's all I was trying to say. I'm inconvenienced and I'm mad about it.

While there hasn't been another large scale attack, there have been cases where banned items have made its way onto a plane. So to question the overall effectiveness of airport security in regards to one incident, is fair.

 

[humpback]

What good does not registering them do? Is it so hard to fathom that tighter restrictions on guns might lessen the amount of these events? Will it completely eradicate them? Obviously, no. Will it help? Let's give it a shot, and find out. Just saying "What good will that do?" sure as #### aint helping.

Is it so hard to fathom that people using guns illegally will continue to use them illegally regardless of their registered status? The guns used in Sandy Hook were purchased legally and registered. That didn't stop ####.

So why have any laws at all? Why have traffic laws? People are just going to break them. Let's save everybody a lot of time and just do away with all traffic laws. Your argument is ignorant.

You must understand just how much political capital it would take to enact legislation like this. Wouldn't you rather save it for something that would be more effective in actually addressing the problem?

I understand. My point is we have officially moved past the point where we can continue to do nothing.

I agree, but the same point holds true- if we go through everything that it's going to take in order to just do "something", and it turns out to be ineffective (or worse), it's going to make it that much more difficult to pass something that actually could help.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying any particular idea would be ineffective, just that doing something for the sake of doing something isn't a good way to go about it.

I see your point, but please enlighten me as to how it can get worse.

There's a lot going on in this thread, but I'm not sure if "it" means gun violence in general or school specific, and I'm not sure which particular proposal to address.

In general though, as bad as things are, I think there's clearly room for them to be worse. You don't think there would be any pushback to legislation (see open carry TX or whatever it is)? I'm sure it would embolden the anti-government folk to stockpile and possibly go even crazier. Likewise there's a chance that having armed guards (or teachers) at schools would make things worse, not better. The black market would undoubtedly grow as well.

 

[StrikeS2k]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

I get what you are trying to say. The problem I have with any regulation, is that it needs to be effective. I don't want to see the same thing that happened with airport security after 9/11. The only people that that were effected by the legislation were law abiding citizens.

I've said before that I would give up all my guns tomorrow, if there was a guarantee it would stop the violence. Unfortunately, I get he feeling, the only thing that would change would be me owning guns.

There hasn't been another large scale attack since 9/11 due to a hijacked airline. Perhaps the changes to airport security have been a good thing. Sorry you've been inconvenienced trying to board your plane. We're trying to make our country safer.

Yeah, couldn't be that we actually lock the cockpit doors now, could it?

 

[timschochet]

President Obama speaks out:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/11/us/troutdale-oregon-reynolds-high-school-shooting.html?hpw&rref=us&_r=0

WASHINGTON — President Obama, speaking hours after a gunman killed a student and wounded a teacher at an Oregon high school, said Tuesday that his failure to push through stricter gun laws was the greatest frustration of his presidency, declaring, “We’re the only developed country on earth where this happens.”

Speaking in blunt and bitter terms about a bloody trail of shootings in the last month, Mr. Obama said: “Our levels of gun violence are off the charts. There’s no advanced, developed country on earth that would put up with this.”

While the president said he had undertaken several executive actions to tighten existing regulations, the failure to require a background check for buyers of guns left the nation vulnerable to an unending series of mass shootings. “The bottom line is, is that we don’t have enough tools right now to really make as big of a dent as we need to,” Mr. Obama said to a young audience at a White House question-and-answer session sponsored by the social media site Tumblr.

The string of shootings continued on Tuesday when a gunman at Reynolds High School in Troutdale, Ore., killed a 14-year-old student and wounded a physical education teacher. The authorities in Troutdale, a Portland suburb, did not immediately identify the gunman, who was armed with a rifle and later found dead at the scene. It was unclear if he was a student or knew either of the victims.

The student who was killed, Emilio Hoffman, was a freshman at the school. The teacher, Todd Rispler, was wounded in the hip, officials said, but the injury was not serious.

The president’s emotional remarks later in Washington were specifically in response to a question from a student at the University of California, Santa Barbara, where six students were killed late last month by Elliot O. Rodger.

“What are you going to do?” the student asked. “What can we all do?”

Mr. Obama replied that passing federal legislation would require a shift in public opinion big enough to move Congress, where he said most members “are terrified of the N.R.A.”

“Until that changes, until there is a fundamental shift in public opinion in which people say: ‘Enough, this is not acceptable, this is not normal, this isn’t, sort of, the price we should be paying for our freedom,’ ” Mr. Obama said, “sadly, not that much is going to change.”

The president expressed little hope for a change in sentiment, noting that even his push for background checks for would-be gun buyers fell short in the wake of the 2012 schoolhouse slaughter in Newtown, Conn.

“The fact that 20 6-year-olds were gunned down in the most violent fashion possible and this town couldn’t do anything about it was stunning to me,” the president said.

 

[General Malaise]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

I get what you are trying to say. The problem I have with any regulation, is that it needs to be effective. I don't want to see the same thing that happened with airport security after 9/11. The only people that that were effected by the legislation were law abiding citizens.

I've said before that I would give up all my guns tomorrow, if there was a guarantee it would stop the violence. Unfortunately, I get he feeling, the only thing that would change would be me owning guns.

There hasn't been another large scale attack since 9/11 due to a hijacked airline. Perhaps the changes to airport security have been a good thing. Sorry you've been inconvenienced trying to board your plane. We're trying to make our country safer.

yeah, that's all I was trying to say. I'm inconvenienced and I'm mad about it.

While there hasn't been another large scale attack, there have been cases where banned items have made its way onto a plane. So to question the overall effectiveness of airport security in regards to one incident, is fair.

Yes, but know EVERY single American KNOWS that it's going to take longer and be more of a PIA the get through airport security and perhaps that change in mindset has helped stave off another large scale attack. Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to make purchasing guns and bullets a longer, more difficult process that will involve screening.

 

[timschochet]

So here's what going to happen: the NRA is going to take Obama's comments and plaster them all over, and once again thousands of gun owners are going to panic, rush to the gun stores, and purchase every gun off the racks.

 

[General Malaise]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

I get what you are trying to say. The problem I have with any regulation, is that it needs to be effective. I don't want to see the same thing that happened with airport security after 9/11. The only people that that were effected by the legislation were law abiding citizens.

I've said before that I would give up all my guns tomorrow, if there was a guarantee it would stop the violence. Unfortunately, I get he feeling, the only thing that would change would be me owning guns.

There hasn't been another large scale attack since 9/11 due to a hijacked airline. Perhaps the changes to airport security have been a good thing. Sorry you've been inconvenienced trying to board your plane. We're trying to make our country safer.

Yeah, couldn't be that we actually lock the cockpit doors now, could it?

I think that's helped too. The point is, at least we did SOMETHING and those things have been effective, knock on wood. Meanwhile, children are dying at an alarming rate because unstable madmen have easy and plentiful access to guns and ammunition. And we've done NOTHING. Shameful.

 

[[icon]]

No, we'll use it to have registration.

To those calling for universal gun registration:

1) What precisely do you hope to accomplish by requiring gun registration over the existing system and how do you plan to accomplish it?

2) What is a reasonable budget to achieve this system? Where does this money come from?

3) What level of accuracy would you consider acceptable within this government run system?

4) How do you plan to address inaccuracy in the system? (ie person is killed with gun that was reported stolen, former owner properly reported theft but wasn't accurate in database due to clerical/technical error and that individual is wrongly arrested/harassed) Who picks up the tab for resulting lawsuits?

5) How do you plan to enforce this requirement? (see CT registration failures)

6) what does this do to curb the vast majority of crimes which are committed using weapons that, under this law, would not have been registered to the offender

Spoiler

• 39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

• 39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

• 0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

• 1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

• 3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

• 8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz34Lz2wT3n

Spoiler

Bump

Spoiler

We get it, you need someone to lay out the answers for everything that would happen during a lawmaking process before you will consider an idea.

Do you have the answers for all of these for pitbull registration? I doubt it. Do you think it makes sense to register pitbulls?

Pitbulls are a constitutionally protected means of self defense, now?

The questions I'm asking are very fair concerns that should be considered before advocating new legislation.

 

[StrikeS2k]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

I get what you are trying to say. The problem I have with any regulation, is that it needs to be effective. I don't want to see the same thing that happened with airport security after 9/11. The only people that that were effected by the legislation were law abiding citizens.

I've said before that I would give up all my guns tomorrow, if there was a guarantee it would stop the violence. Unfortunately, I get he feeling, the only thing that would change would be me owning guns.

There hasn't been another large scale attack since 9/11 due to a hijacked airline. Perhaps the changes to airport security have been a good thing. Sorry you've been inconvenienced trying to board your plane. We're trying to make our country safer.

Yeah, couldn't be that we actually lock the cockpit doors now, could it?

I think that's helped too. The point is, at least we did SOMETHING and those things have been effective, knock on wood. Meanwhile, children are dying at an alarming rate because unstable madmen have easy and plentiful access to guns and ammunition. And we've done NOTHING. Shameful.

We never had a 9/11 BEFORE 9/11. So who knows if it would have happened again if we didn't do "something." The TSA is an f'ing joke and ineffective. I'm glad they give you the warm fuzzies. That's what the gov't wants you to feel. As far as actual security, it's been demonstrated over and over that they don't do squat, except rupture passengers colostomy bags and fondle little girls in the name of "security.".

 

[KCitons]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

I get what you are trying to say. The problem I have with any regulation, is that it needs to be effective. I don't want to see the same thing that happened with airport security after 9/11. The only people that that were effected by the legislation were law abiding citizens.

I've said before that I would give up all my guns tomorrow, if there was a guarantee it would stop the violence. Unfortunately, I get he feeling, the only thing that would change would be me owning guns.

There hasn't been another large scale attack since 9/11 due to a hijacked airline. Perhaps the changes to airport security have been a good thing. Sorry you've been inconvenienced trying to board your plane. We're trying to make our country safer.

yeah, that's all I was trying to say. I'm inconvenienced and I'm mad about it.

While there hasn't been another large scale attack, there have been cases where banned items have made its way onto a plane. So to question the overall effectiveness of airport security in regards to one incident, is fair.

Yes, but know EVERY single American KNOWS that it's going to take longer and be more of a PIA the get through airport security and perhaps that change in mindset has helped stave off another large scale attack. Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to make purchasing guns and bullets a longer, more difficult process that will involve screening.

I get what you are saying. But, I still stand by my statement that it only punishes the law abiding citizen. We've already seen that guns used in these mass shootings were purchased legally. So, the process would be ineffective. We also know that there is a large black market for guns and ammo. This again, won't be effected by the laws.

Instead of looking at the number of shootings. Look at where and how the weapons and ammo was acquired. More laws won't fix that problem.

 

[Otis]

Oh oh, I know I know -- I've got the answer to all this!

MORE GUNS!

 

[Otis]

Gun nerds> you can pretend to be army men on weekends by playing paintball. Same thing.

 

[Wrigley]

Oh oh, I know I know -- I've got the answer to all this!

MORE GUNS!

and pizza

 

[Run It Up]

Watching the news conference on the shooting in Oregon just now, kid had an assault rifle described by the police as a AR-15 type weapon and a knife. He was wearing a bandolier carrying nine additional magazines full of ammunition amounting to hundreds of rounds.

He obtained the weapons from his family, the guns were apparently secured but was able to retrieve them anyway.

####### disgusting.

 

[Otis]

Watching the news conference on the shooting in Oregon just now, kid had an assault rifle described by the police as a AR-15 type weapon and a knife. He was wearing a bandolier carrying nine additional magazines full of ammunition amounting to hundreds of rounds.

He obtained the weapons from his family, the guns were apparently secured but was able to retrieve them anyway.

####### disgusting.

IT'S THEIR RIGHT, BRO

DON'T TREAD ON ME

 

[KCitons]

Gun nerds> you can pretend to be army men on weekends by playing paintball. Same thing.

If you shoot a deer with a paintball gun, you could be ticketed for harassing wildlife.